quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: But I thought Ford trucks were tougher than GM?
I suspect that's a function of marketing. As I recall, Ford has been more aggressive re: regional marketing, e.g., Ford's "King Ranch" edition for Texas.
That being said, as shareholders in the bailout companies, it *is* prudent for us to review the success of applicable marketing campaigns.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Mercedes and BMW hold us to the highest standards. +\- .4 to .5 of a millimeter for class A (doors, hoods, trunk lid, roof, fender, quarters) for pre production parts. They are the only ones who tighten the standards for production parts. Parts need to have an average dimension of +\- .3 for production or they want to know what the problem is.
Toyota and Honda do not design and build parts as complicated and Merc. and BMW but still hold us to +\- .5mm
The Big Three ask us for +\- .6 to .7mm
GM looks harder than Ford or Chrysler at the finished product but they are also the hardest to please. When it comes to building the same tool for multiple plants they want it changed to suit the plant's needs. GM has long had a build standard in place in order to cut costs and to standardize plants for the good of the company. The plant managers don't follow it. That being said, Ford and Chrysler spend less money building tooling. The big three's standards most likely apply to all of the components on their vehicles.
All of them have problems at some time or another.
The big three ask for lower quality parts. And they get them.
Toyota and Honda have figured out how to build high volume with high quality and that shows with their low warranty recalls and complaints.
If GM goes down it is because of a lot of things internal.
posted
I personally don't like the styling of Ford trucks nor have I ever owned one...I know a few people that have owned Ford trucks and they seem to be happy with them...I don't think they are any "tougher" than GM's trucks though...
You and a lot of other people in this country are easily led to believe what the marketing gurus want you to believe...
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I personally don't like the styling of Ford trucks nor have I ever owned one...I know a few people that have owned Ford trucks and they seem to be happy with them...I don't think they are any "tougher" than GM's trucks though...
You and a lot of other people in this country are easily led to believe what the marketing gurus want you to believe...
geez, you're tough...he posted:
quote:GM looks harder than Ford or Chrysler at the finished product but they are also the hardest to please.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by Robot: The short and not so sweet.
All cars and trucks are NOT created equal.
I build and install automotive assembly lines.
Mercedes and BMW hold us to the highest standards. +\- .4 to .5 of a millimeter for class A (doors, hoods, trunk lid, roof, fender, quarters) for pre production parts. They are the only ones who tighten the standards for production parts. Parts need to have an average dimension of +\- .3 for production or they want to know what the problem is.
Toyota and Honda do not design and build parts as complicated and Merc. and BMW but still hold us to +\- .5mm
The Big Three ask us for +\- .6 to .7mm
GM looks harder than Ford or Chrysler at the finished product but they are also the hardest to please. When it comes to building the same tool for multiple plants they want it changed to suit the plant's needs. GM has long had a build standard in place in order to cut costs and to standardize plants for the good of the company. The plant managers don't follow it. That being said, Ford and Chrysler spend less money building tooling. The big three's standards most likely apply to all of the components on their vehicles.
All of them have problems at some time or another.
The big three ask for lower quality parts. And they get them.
Toyota and Honda have figured out how to build high volume with high quality and that shows with their low warranty recalls and complaints.
If GM goes down it is because of a lot of things internal.
Just the way I see it.
Well I actually built and audited GM vehicles for 30 years and I spent a lot of those years working on an assembly line...
I can assure you that the "assembly line" is not what makes a quality vehicle.
In fact an "assembly line is nothing more than a conglomeration of chains, drives, transfers, electric motors, hydraulics,and gears that move the vehicle from one point to the next. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with parts, the quality of parts, or the quality of vehicles that are produced...
I have also worked in many different parts plants including foundries, stamping plants, engine plants...and...body, paint, hard & soft trim, chassis, and final process departments of assembly plants...
I have also driven and performed real time side by side audits between almost every GM car made and almost every one of our competitors models including BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, etc.
Mercedes and BMW are the highest quality cars made hands down...but you are gonna pay for it.
Of all of the cars that I drove and did complex audits on I can tell you that GM cars are just as high of quality as Lexus, Toyota, and Honda...and better than the rest of them...
For you to insinuate that your "assembly lines" determine a vehicles quality is pure egotistical CRAP...
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I personally don't like the styling of Ford trucks nor have I ever owned one...I know a few people that have owned Ford trucks and they seem to be happy with them...I don't think they are any "tougher" than GM's trucks though...
You and a lot of other people in this country are easily led to believe what the marketing gurus want you to believe...
geez, you're tough...he posted:
quote:GM looks harder than Ford or Chrysler at the finished product but they are also the hardest to please.
Sorry for the confusion Tex...I was actually responding to CCM's last post on page 4...I didn't notice there was a page 5
My response to Robot's post may also sound tough...but it's true..
posted
i've worked on japanese german and american cars.
Japanese cars tend to hurt my hands. they are too big to fit itno the tight spaces easily. German cars? these guys would have you disassemble half the car to change minor parts... it's weird that they don't seem to consider ease of repair at all.. they are precise to point where two nuts would be so close together that you trun the open end wrench only so far as to allow you to flip it over and do it again... and the closed end wrench won't even fit... five minutes to remove each nut? nah....
American cars weremade to be worked on and fiddled with...
that (sadly) has changed...
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One thing I have to say is that America was the founder of the working class car that has changed now but most people if they were handy at all could keep them going and do repairs without a million dollars worth of tools. It must have been our farming background that was marketed to.
I remember adult men when I was a kid say they bought a ford or a chevy just for that reason you can always get parts and work on them.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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quote:Originally posted by raybond: One thing I have to say is that America was the founder of the working class car that has changed now but most people if they were handy at all could keep them going and do repairs without a million dollars worth of tools. It must have been our farming background that was marketed to.
I remember adult men when I was a kid say they bought a ford or a chevy just for that reason you can always get parts and work on them.
maybe they need to figure out how to get back to that?
i remember when carbs were not food
they started off simple epough and then supposedly because of emission (i don't beleive it) they became somewhat mysterious...
fuel injectors are very simple as long as you can get a reading off thier control system...
an electric car system that is scalable is probably the long term answer, but we are still just a couple years away on electricity storage...
somewhere along the line? people seem to me to have lost their desire to need to wash their hands to eat dinner.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by Robot: The short and not so sweet.
All cars and trucks are NOT created equal.
I build and install automotive assembly lines.
Mercedes and BMW hold us to the highest standards. +\- .4 to .5 of a millimeter for class A (doors, hoods, trunk lid, roof, fender, quarters) for pre production parts. They are the only ones who tighten the standards for production parts. Parts need to have an average dimension of +\- .3 for production or they want to know what the problem is.
Toyota and Honda do not design and build parts as complicated and Merc. and BMW but still hold us to +\- .5mm
The Big Three ask us for +\- .6 to .7mm
GM looks harder than Ford or Chrysler at the finished product but they are also the hardest to please. When it comes to building the same tool for multiple plants they want it changed to suit the plant's needs. GM has long had a build standard in place in order to cut costs and to standardize plants for the good of the company. The plant managers don't follow it. That being said, Ford and Chrysler spend less money building tooling. The big three's standards most likely apply to all of the components on their vehicles.
All of them have problems at some time or another.
The big three ask for lower quality parts. And they get them.
Toyota and Honda have figured out how to build high volume with high quality and that shows with their low warranty recalls and complaints.
If GM goes down it is because of a lot of things internal.
Just the way I see it.
Well I actually built and audited GM vehicles for 30 years and I spent a lot of those years working on an assembly line...
I can assure you that the "assembly line" is not what makes a quality vehicle.
In fact an "assembly line is nothing more than a conglomeration of chains, drives, transfers, electric motors, hydraulics,and gears that move the vehicle from one point to the next. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with parts, the quality of parts, or the quality of vehicles that are produced...
I have also worked in many different parts plants including foundries, stamping plants, engine plants...and...body, paint, hard & soft trim, chassis, and final process departments of assembly plants...
I have also driven and performed real time side by side audits between almost every GM car made and almost every one of our competitors models including BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, etc.
Mercedes and BMW are the highest quality cars made hands down...but you are gonna pay for it.
Of all of the cars that I drove and did complex audits on I can tell you that GM cars are just as high of quality as Lexus, Toyota, and Honda...and better than the rest of them...
For you to insinuate that your "assembly lines" determine a vehicles quality is pure egotistical CRAP...
The focus of my post is clearly aimed at showing the difference between the manufactures and what they consider an acceptable part.
Second to that, are my comments regarding the big three and the fact that it has been my experience that GM is the best of the three. In keeping with the topic I feel, based on my experience, that GM has a lot of internal issues that cost the company money. Like people not following policy. Changing lines after they are built. Not being able to adapt to changing conditions quickly enough.
Toyota and Honda are more or less in second for the highest quality cars made. The price is lower because they are so advanced as far as efficient manufacturing practices it's mind boggling.
"The Toyota way" is a book that has been taken the industry to a new level.
As far as assembly lines go, I think you are referring to "Final Assembly" where all the parts come together and at that point it is up to the line workers to install and adjust the components of a vehicle. Yes you are correct. The quality has already been determined based on the parts that have been accepted on the shipping dock.
"Final Assembly" is what everyone sees on TV during the News with the robots welding and carrying parts and such.
"Tier 1" is a term given to the main part suppliers not owned by the manufacture.
It has been my experience that a well designed part along with a well designed line will run under cycle time, break down less, be easier on the operators, (which they will shove in the face of their buddies on crappy lines) and be easy on the maintance department which in turn do not mind fixing problems correctly, and ultimately spit out parts that are more repeatable with less scrap.
Lines that have poorly designed parts and a poorly designed process along with poor tooling will most definitely cause a higher scrap count. Operators get pissed off because it drags out the day. Maintenance guys look bad because they are called to the line over the radio for every one to here. Bad welds from crappy parts, or bad cooling, or no time to work on the welding parameters, glue missing cause the cameras failed or were jumped out cause they fail a lot. And in the end no one knows who bypassed all the sensors just to keep the line running.
This applies to Tier 1 and Auto Manufactures alike.
In a Toyota or Honda "Final Assembly" plant the lines run for two or three days without a sensor failing. When they fail or when a programming change has to be made it is a big deal. Paperwork and interviews to find out why.
In the last few years the big three are making good progress in closing the gap to catch up to Toyota and Honda's quality in the small car market. Not that the gap was very big but it has allowed Toyota and Honda to catch up too and in some areas pass the big three in sales.
Retired, I am not here to say you are wrong just to provide my view of the industry. From what I have seen Toyota and Honda put more into the design of parts and tooling than the big three, and have a more intense screening process for parts that cross their shipping docks. Which is not that hard for them because they have put so much in to the design of the parts and the lines.
Toyota and Honda have ten meetings before they do or change anything. Only then do they give it to the trades to do the work. It gets done and they move on.
PS: The only thing I ever bought new was a motorcycle at 17. Since then I have owned 1 Dodge, 3 Fords, 1 BMW, 4 Toyotas, 1 Buick, 3 Chevys, 2 Cadillacs, and 1 Infinity. I like the GM products the best for daily drivers but am very impressed at the quality of the engine parts of some Toyota's. Stock block, crank and rods I can bump the HP from 120 to 400.
I know we are not going to agree on this but that's what free countries are all about.
Oh, Just want to add something. When I build a line the most important person for me, the one I want to please the most, is the operator. That person has to stand there for 8 hours a day for the 5 plus years that the line runs. If I can keep them happy by making the parts easy to load and trouble shoot the line so it runs efficiently, I've built a good line.
posted
Activists call for JP Morgan boycott By Ed Brayton 4/9/09 12:11 AM A group of activists is joining forces to urge Michigan residents to boycott JP Morgan Chase, a bank that holds a large amount of debt in Chrysler and refuses to allow the automaker to swap equity for debt in order to help them avoid bankruptcy and stay alive. The group includes Marcy Wheeler and Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake and Progress Michigan. Wheeler writes:
JP Morgan Chase wants to push Chrysler into bankruptcy so it can jump the line ahead of retirees and US taxpayers to get paid back.
If JP Morgan Chase does that, 300,000 people will lose their jobs.
That’s sorry thanks we get from a company that has gotten $25 billion in TARP funds from American taxpayers–plus billions more in other benefits from the Wall Street bailout.
My husband and I decided the only way to pressure JP Morgan Chase to negotiate in good faith with Chrysler was to close our Chase accounts. We want our money to go to a bank that is investing in rebuilding Michigan–not bankrupting it.
Now, FDL and Progress Michigan are calling on others to join our Chase boycott.
They have an online petition and a Facebook group set up for the boycott.
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posted
If you read my last post with Chrysler who is in trouble who wants a bk the big investors ldo same with gm I have said this all along. ---------------------------------------------------quote from this topic. and a response from retire
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by raybond: That is the only reason that they would even consider BK... ------------------------------------------------ no that is not the only reason you don't seem to get it GM is broke done they can't go on anymore by themselves. No either we keep them alive with tax dollars until they restructure or keep them alive for years while they do nothing. And it is not the Unions holding things up mostly it is the investors but that is not a concern now I am for making a quick kill now and getting it over with.
And once people figure it out that they are going to be around there sales will pick up slowly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No...you don't seem to get it, GM has been "broke" many times in the past....the difference now is that they aren't able to secure loans through banks BECAUSE OF THE CREDIT CRISIS.
That is why they are looking to the government for a LOAN not a BAILOUT...GET IT?
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posted
GM is a little more complicated than Chrysler the inverstors are working there way into the primary first posittion once that is done. Its good-by GM.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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posted
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GM is likely finished
April 1 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp.’s 60-day deadline to restructure is unlikely to be extended because the U.S. won’t repay $1 billion in convertible notes maturing June 1, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions.
This is basically the government telling GM that either they get the bondholders to agree to whatever is necessary, or they're dead.
They're dead, and here's why.
Back on Monday I wrote about the Automakers and said this in closing:
And then there's the nearly $1 trillion in CDS that will trigger. There is no accurate way to know what the net exposure is on those, but I'd take the "over" on $100 billion, focused in you-know-where.
Here's the problem - I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of those were written by AIG.
The government has provided a history now that says that if you are a holder of CDS written by AIG, you will get 100 cents on the dollar, even if the notes don't default. In addition that 100 cents is above what you would normally get even if there IS a default, because normally you have to tender the defaulted bond or the payout is limited by the recovery, and recovery on a defaulted bond is almost never zero.
So in this case the winning play, if you're a big bondholder, is to tell GM to suck eggs; you'll get paid 100 cents on your CDS even though AIG has no money, because the taxpayer will make you whole on those CDS, even if the bonds have a recovery in bankruptcy.
In other words you could conceivably get more than 100 cents if you hold those bonds - so long as you also hold a CDS as a hedge.
It must be nice to be able to screw the taxpayer for more than a 100% payout, right?
The bondholders "committee" is all made up of big players who presumably are hedged, ergo, this has to be assumed to be part of their "thought process" - if not the controlling factor.
Small bondholders on the other hand (who have no hedge, unless they were smart enough to buy lots of PUTs a few months ago) are just going to get plain old-fashioned screwed.
Since the only way GM survives is for it to get the bondholder committee to agree to restructuring it therefore follows that the only way this can happen is if the administration (and Fed!) makes very clear that all funding to AIG has been cut off and therefore no further "pass through" payments will (or can) occur.
That is, The Obama Administration has to bankrupt AIG to save GM, or we will instead see the banks again rip off the American Taxpayer through yet another "passthrough" CDS payout stream AND GM will go bankrupt.
Get ready America - you're about to get it in BOTH holes this time.
PS: Every firm in America that has a significant amount of CDS outstanding is potentially subject to this same attack. It's all very nice that our government is permitting banks to rob the citizens like this, isn't it?
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posted
Every firm in America that has a significant amount of CDS outstanding is potentially subject to this same attack. It's all very nice that our government is permitting banks to rob the citizens like this, isn't it?
this is why it's been so frustrating to watch people try to blame fannie and freddie get blamed for our economic crisis.
a small group of "Reaganites" set this "play" up over the course of 20 years.
my bet is that Reagan himself would have been willing to throw alot of these jokers in jail.
the "freemarket"; we haven't had one for almost 100 years anyway, such as it is, has been thouroughly gutted.
the "Tea Parties" we are seeing now? are five years too late. It's almost a joke. I listen to them being interviewed and they only know that they don't like govenrmnet. These very same people were critisizing the protestors outside the GOP convention in NYC as UNAmericans.
This dpression is not much different from the Gret depression except that people will feel less physical pain. The people that feel the real pain are not the ones who are at fault either. The country and the world economy has been robbed and the robbers are not even being investigated. If somebody breaks into somebodies home and steals all thier silverware the cops pay more attention than our law enforcement is paying to this...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: the insidious part is that the CDS market which is totally unregulated can drive the stock prices
But we don't want regulation Glass... we know that is bad for business and that only good business is a unregulated wild wild west business frontier...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
i would do rather well in an unregulated society, i like MS basically because we are pretty much unregulated here.
here's what ticks me off.
the so and so's tell you it's regulated and that it's safe to be civilised, and that they expect you to be civlised cuz that's how you get ahead in their world.
then they steal from you while they are wearing a suit and tie.
if you punch them for stealing from you? you go to jail and they sue you for whatever you managed to keep outa their moneytraps....
to be honest? i am kinda sad that all these teaparties are full of loudmouth blowhard wimps that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
i feel like going to a tea party and spitting in their faces for waiting till it's too damn late (by five years) to matter to have them
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i would do rather well in an unregulated society, i like MS basically because we are pretty much unregulated here.
Unregulation, deregulation or whatever you wish to call it is what got us in this mess... and I don't mean any particular industry... just in general... Big Business got Carte Blanche to do what anything they wanted without scrutiny and their hunger for money no matter how they get it led to this... so no.. unregulation is not good.. some regulation has to be put in place to insure that it doesn't get out of control...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i would do rather well in an unregulated society, i like MS basically because we are pretty much unregulated here.
here's what ticks me off.
the so and so's tell you it's regulated and that it's safe to be civilised, and that they expect you to be civlised cuz that's how you get ahead in their world.
then they steal from you while they are wearing a suit and tie.
if you punch them for stealing from you? you go to jail and they sue you for whatever you managed to keep outa their moneytraps....
to be honest? i am kinda sad that all these teaparties are full of loudmouth blowhard wimps that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
i feel like going to a tea party and spitting in their faces for waiting till it's too damn late (by five years) to matter to have them
You hit the nail on the head with this post Glass...It makes me want to vomit when I hear about these pansy ass tea party gatherings... Common folk better start growing some balls and fighting to free themselves from the slave masters that control every freakin aspect of their lives...
Unregulated society? Bring it on...I would do quite well myself...
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...you wouldn't last 5 minutes in an unregulated society...
I am in a semi unregulated society and I am 37 yrs old this year so i have survived more then 5 minutes...
You have NO idea how soon you would perish in an unregulated society...You think NY is semi-unregulated...LOL...come on over and spend some time in Detroit...or Flint...or Pontiac Michigan.
You would piss your pants from fear upon merely entering any one of these cities, and I guarantee you that your no-gun carrying azz wouldn't last one night...
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i would do rather well in an unregulated society, i like MS basically because we are pretty much unregulated here.
Unregulation, deregulation or whatever you wish to call it is what got us in this mess... and I don't mean any particular industry... just in general... Big Business got Carte Blanche to do what anything they wanted without scrutiny and their hunger for money no matter how they get it led to this... so no.. unregulation is not good.. some regulation has to be put in place to insure that it doesn't get out of control...
Mach, my serious point is that they PRETEND to be regulated and civilised. They aren't civilised at all, they are savages with suits and ties. take the suits and ties away and they aren't anything at all, it's a fraud.
they put on a 2000$ suit and they get on TV telling US how much they are doing for us and how they deserve to be paid 400 times "regular" people and they are nothing but lying SOBs who can't make it without lying and cheating and stealing.
go rob a bank with a gun? you get 20 to life...
go rob a bank with your computer and a crooked contract? and they give you a g-d-m bonus.
greed is NEVER good. greed is not the kind of motivation we need to make the world a place fit for decent civilised humans to live in. civilisation is a very thin veneer and the veneer seems to be getting aloto cracks in it
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i mean it, in 2003 or 4 when they started giving away tax rebates i was angry. and i posted as much right here at the time.
i couldn't very well send it back, it would not do any good anyway..
i complained and people acted like i was silly.
but the govt givaeways were APPLAUDED byt he teabg party people.
andi know damn well that they applauded even louder when Bush decided to cut taxes AND start a trillion dollar miltiary campaign that you cannot just quit in the middle of for more than just monetary reasons...
now these idiots are complaining cuz the butchers bill is finally due and they want to PRETEND they are Minutemen? what a laugh.
they are just angry cuz they lost political power AND the credit card bill is due at the same time...
the stupidest part of their teaparties is that the tax dollars are at least being spent on regular people now... the teaparty punks are afraid some little old lady might get to eat human food instead of canned dog food... the last ten years the tax moneys have been going into ---well we don't even know where they went because the Pentagon can't account for most of it anyway.. no-bid contracts? they're illegal. and if they are/were "technically" legal now? they are immoral and anti-freemarket, yet the "freemarketeers" never raised peep over them...
i've known for fifteen years that i would see Social Security run out of money just as i will hit retirement age. i was actually surprised two years ago when they said it would last as long as they claimed. now we know that it will run out much sooner.
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you can't even watch one morning of CNBC anymore without having to listen to a couple of sniveling whining jackaazzess complain that they pay income taxes and the "poor" people don't...
they act like they didn't make their money off all the labor produced by the "poor" people...
you can't take taxes from somebody who has NO MONEY after they pay their monthly expenses anyway...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
I can't stand to watch ANY of the cable news programming anymore...it does nothing but piss me off to watch these suited up morons spew their lies and rhetoric...The last time I watched one of the "alphabet" channels, Kudlow was on literally screaming that GM should be forced into bankruptcy and that he didn't give a damn what the repercussions were for the retirees and the workers...
Seriously...I would biotch slap that little prick, from here to Dallas, if I ever came face to face with him...
I am fed up with the whole phucking upper class and their "out of touch" mentality...
posted
Seriously...I would biotch slap that little prick, from here to Dallas, if I ever came face to face with him...
you know it would be funny if it wasn't looking like our country is crumbling like stale bread.
and yeah, he's one of the main culprits.
i expect Oreilly to act like that. but when its being seasoned into the (already FOS) financial news? i get fed up.
if i want politics? i can watch MSNBC and FOX or turn on the AM radio. when i want financial news? i don't want to listen to the political ranting of some limp wristed dude who looks like he should be wearing a pink BOWTIE and eyebrow glasses whining about how his party lost it's way and deserves a second chance cuz the "other guys" are commies...
the govt HAD to step in and lend money cuz there was nobody else who could or would. the reason they can't or won't is cuz they are all lying SOB's and don't even trust each other (for good reason i might add)
do govt bailouts stink? hell yes, but the alternative? Kudlow and his ilk couldn't handle the alternative.
heck it's OK to pad the accounts of the rich and steal fromt he pension funds but don't you dare take fromt he rich so the poor won't starve without giving them a tax deduction
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: You have NO idea how soon you would perish in an unregulated society...You think NY is semi-unregulated...LOL...come on over and spend some time in Detroit...or Flint...or Pontiac Michigan.
You would piss your pants from fear upon merely entering any one of these cities, and I guarantee you that your no-gun carrying azz wouldn't last one night...
There is a difference between unregulated industries and outright no law enforcement. Those cities are outright corrupt from the Gov't down to the law enforcement. Clean it all up and life will improve there but till that happens stop b*tching. Til then I would agree that you have to carry a gun in a Wild Wild West place like those cities but I also believe that the quality of life should improve there so that gun carrying does not have to be the norm.
But anyways other then that I would do ok there. Grown up poor most of my life in poor conditions so it would not be a shock to me to what I already seen in NY itself.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: you can't even watch one morning of CNBC anymore without having to listen to a couple of sniveling whining jackaazzess complain that they pay income taxes and the "poor" people don't...
they act like they didn't make their money off all the labor produced by the "poor" people...
you can't take taxes from somebody who has NO MONEY after they pay their monthly expenses anyway...
Perhaps you are starting to see the world my way...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
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