No one is disputing the right to own a gun in this discussion Glass... we are disputing the right to carry one on private property that is not your private property and definetly at schools etc..
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
The posted article did state that "Mr. White admitted in court that he had not hunted in years and that the Beretta was unlicensed." and "Mr. White grabbed an unlicensed pistol." So, no, he didn't have a permit for the gun let alone the CCW permit.
As for facts, it's intellectually dishonest to discount facts\studies just because you don't like who did them. My previous post cites FACTS. John Lott's work is held by most gun law advocates as the hardest study to refute in favor of gun permits because it was so extensive. Many (not all of course) contend that there is almost nothing in the study's procedures to fault. He did his homework and used publically available information about violent crimes in states where CCW laws were enacted, comparing the before and after statistics over several years. There was NO appreciable increase in ALL cases. Not some, not most, all. Also, in many, violent crimes dropped significantly.
The courts have ruled that one can't carry a firearm on private property without the permission of the owner. The constitution says nothing of the sort. As per Glassman's post, it says my right to carry shall not be infringed. It doesn't state shall not be infringed other than on personal property.
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quote:most businesses do not allow CCW holders... if a CCW holder has a gun on him/herself it is usually without the business owners/private property owners knowledge because it's CONCEALED.
This just shows that you are completely ignorant of the facts regarding carrying concealed weapons. Yes, I do get out of Ohio and yes I carry my handgun.
Here in Ohio (and many other states) private businesses can prohibit concealed carry holders from carrying their guns on their property by posting a "no concealed carry" sign on the door. Well, guess what, ALMOST NO BUSINESSES post those signs because it costs them customers. I (and thousands of other) concealed carry holders in Ohio will not patronize businesses that don't allow concealed carry.
The bottom line is that you are just making it up and you have no idea what you're talking about!
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No one is disputing the right to own a gun in this discussion Glass... we are disputing the right to carry one on private property that is not your private property and definetly at schools etc..
It says it right there... Keep AND BEAR arms. And PM you were asking if this nation has lost it's mind? Pretty sure just the responses on this thread should tell you all you need to know.
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posted
Here in horse-thief country, we can't carry into bars, liquor stores, etc...nor into, say, sporting events. Other businesses? I dunno...doesn't seem to be much of big deal, down here. But then I don't really care much about concealed weapons or permits...My choice is an unconcealed Remington 870. Now, if I were transporting, say, a large amount of cash, I might carry a handgun...but I wouldn't worry about being permitted.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:most businesses do not allow CCW holders... if a CCW holder has a gun on him/herself it is usually without the business owners/private property owners knowledge because it's CONCEALED.
This just shows that you are completely ignorant of the facts regarding carrying concealed weapons. Yes, I do get out of Ohio and yes I carry my handgun.
Here in Ohio (and many other states) private businesses can prohibit concealed carry holders from carrying their guns on their property by posting a "no concealed carry" sign on the door. Well, guess what, ALMOST NO BUSINESSES post those signs because it costs them customers. I (and thousands of other) concealed carry holders in Ohio will not patronize businesses that don't allow concealed carry.
The bottom line is that you are just making it up and you have no idea what you're talking about!
There are no signs because no one expects anyone to carry a weapon concealed into a place of business or private property. At least not outside of Ohio. And fyi there are more non-carrying customers then there are gun-carrying ones so I have no doubt those businesses will do ok business without your money. I'm pretty sure drugs are not allowed on the same premises we are discussing but you do not see signs prohibiting those neither... and why? because no one expects someone to do so.. the signs not being there has nothing to do with losing business.. get your head out of your azz... your ego far outsizes whats between your legs... come to NY or any other state and tell the owner or whomever of the business or property that you are carrying a gun and that you are not a police officer or related job... watch how quickly they will either A. call the cops B. ask you to leave the premises or C. be aiming a gun at you from under the counter if they have one themselves...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:There are no signs because no one expects anyone to carry a weapon concealed into a place of business or private property.
Again, you simply don't know what you're talking about. This issue was all over the media when our concealed carry law was passed 4 years ago. Every business knows that they have the right to prohibit concealed carry on their property. Some businesses initially put up the signs, but then a lot of them took them down when their business suffered. You see Mach, most businesses don't want to lose some percentage (even if that is a small percentage) of their customer base. Most businesses are in business to make money, not to make some silly leftist political statement.
quote:I'm pretty sure drugs are not allowed on the same premises we are discussing but you do not see signs prohibiting those neither... and why?
You don't get it. Drugs are illegal - no sign is required. Guns are LEGAL, but the owner is allowed to post a sign to prohibit concealed carry on his property (as it should be). He can prohibit concealed carry and I can choose to take my business elsewhere. Nice how that works out, isn't it?
quote:come to NY or any other state and tell the owner or whomever of the business or property that you are carrying a gun and that you are not a police officer or related job... watch how quickly they will either A. call the cops B. ask you to leave the premises or C. be aiming a gun at you from under the counter if they have one themselves...
First of all, concealed carry holders don't go around announcing that they're carrying a gun. That kind of defeats the purpose of concealed carry. Second, in states where concealed carry is legal, merchants don't call the police if they believe a CCW holder is in their store with a gun. Even if they did, what are the police going to do - IT'S LEGAL!!!
Why not just admit that you don't know the first thing about this subject?
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quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Why not just admit that you don't know the first thing about this subject?
I guess your reading my mind now ... Did i say in a CCW state? ... I don't recall I did... I recall saying try that outside of Ohio... which could mean CCW or non CCW state... and perhaps I am not a "expert" on said subject but i do know right from wrong and it is totally wrong to have our students armed to the teeth even if they are of adult age... as for silly leftist political stance... we'll it sure beats a nusto Right wing ideology...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by rimasco: Im not against this. Im just for keeping the wrong guns outta the wrong hands... and thats it. and making REAL effort to get rid of the unregistered.
Exactly Rim... but whenever we say this they immediately start crying about us trying to take their right to own a gun away...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
Ok, quick question for those who feel sterner guns laws are needed; what would you do to 'make a REAL effort to get rid of the unregistered' and 'keep the wrong guns outta the wrong hands' while still allowing law abiding citizens to exercise their 2nd amendment rights?
Why would someone who is planning on commiting a crime where they plan to have a gun care what the law says about carrying a gun?
I still agree with the old saying,"When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: FYI..."bad guys" don't obey the law, that is what makes em "bad guys"...
Yes that is true but that is no reason to let them buy them easily through legal channels when "red flags" say otherwise... but the problem is that gun shop owners are greedy & will sell to anyone if they think they can get away with it even if their instinct or something else tells them the "customer" is not going to use it for legal reasons... but anyways shouldn't you be addressing your particular questions to Rimasco... he made the statements that you are referring to... i merely agreed with him...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
You have made it very clear on many occasions and on many threads that you are against guns...so I am fairly sure that I know who I should be addressing my questions to. But thank you for your help in deciding what is best for me...
posted
The funny and ridiculous thing here is that the lefties seem to fear law abiding citizens having guns but don't seem to fear the criminals that would actually do them harm! THAT'S CRAZY!
quote:I guess your reading my mind now ... Did i say in a CCW state?
Now you're just being silly. Concealed Carry Holders certainly wouldn't be carrying their handgun in a non-CCW state. CCW holders are LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!
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posted
and you are a patronizing, pompous, arrogant jerk............................................................................ ................................................................................ ...
However, I think its very productive to point out your faults...that way you might be able to improve yourself.
Try to work on it...you may like the results!...and ,who knows?..maybe you will turn out to be a likable individual.
very productive!...unlike your tired,rushlike,diatribe you spew forth so readily around here..you have never provided one insightful,original, useful bit of information on this board. and yet ,you seem to think you have something enlightening to say. Hogwash!
more productive thoughts of mine!
open your mind and you may be pleasantly surprised at what it feels like to be a whole person!.........more productive thoughts..
enjoy your sad,pathetic,red-neck,negative,close-minded day
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Couple of questions for you Machiavelli...
What the hell do you mean by "wrong guns"?
How do you propose that we keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys"?
What LAW do think will accomplish this?
The fact is...there is NO LAW that will stop the guns from getting into the hands of the "bad guys"...
FYI..."bad guys" don't obey the law, that is what makes em "bad guys"...
Wrong guns would be Tec 9 and the Mac 10. But we already covered this topic.
And as far as the wrong hands? How bout a simple background check? Ill use the school shooters as examples cause in all three cases they HAD BRUSHES WITH THE LAW. On December 13, 2005, Cho was found "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization" by New River Valley Community Services Board. This is JMO but maybe the Gun store owner shoulda been able to access this info on one of dem dere dang puters. Where in turn the computer would say DECLINE.
Now I have a question for you retire... where do you think all these illegal unregistered guns come from? Up here its much easier for me to go to the guy on the street. I could get a Glock 9 in the box ribbon through the barrel and all. when it gets used in an illegal capacity and recovered, do they trace the origins? Why are the streets flooded with UNOPENED FIREARMS?
Please dont tell me that there stolen from under peoples christmas trees.......
I guess you just dont realize how many illegal guuns are out there
-------------------- "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication"
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quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: The funny and ridiculous thing here is that the lefties seem to fear law abiding citizens having guns but don't seem to fear the criminals that would actually do them harm! THAT'S CRAZY!
you really are a azz if you think that... i have said it many times that i do not have a problem with people owning a gun legally but do have a problems with guns getting into wrong hands illegally hence stricter laws to prevent that...
quote:Now you're just being silly. Concealed Carry Holders certainly wouldn't be carrying their handgun in a non-CCW state. CCW holders are LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!
Believe it or not but CCW holders have done just that because A. they have no respect for other states' laws and/or B. they will state their "right to bear arms" wherever in the U.S. so to them state laws do not apply... anyways there has been cases of CCW holders carrying guns in non CCW states... Just because you do not do it (which i wouldn't be surprised if you do) does not mean others do not...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: You have made it very clear on many occasions and on many threads that you are against guns...so I am fairly sure that I know who I should be addressing my questions to. But thank you for your help in deciding what is best for me...
You still haven't answered my questions...
And I have answered your very questions in many threads in the past that you have read so there is no need for me to repeat myself but Rimasco has answered you with a reply I agree with so your question(s) are answered...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Couple of questions for you Machiavelli...
What the hell do you mean by "wrong guns"?
How do you propose that we keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys"?
What LAW do think will accomplish this?
The fact is...there is NO LAW that will stop the guns from getting into the hands of the "bad guys"...
FYI..."bad guys" don't obey the law, that is what makes em "bad guys"...
I guess you just dont realize how many illegal guuns are out there
Are you kidding me...I live in DETROIT! This city is full of em...making a new law won't make em disappear, nor will it stop the bad guys from purchasing them.
There are already background checks, waiting periods etc. to buy a handgun here in Michigan. If you are already a CCW holder then you can buy one over the counter. Why...because you have already been checked out, have never been convicted of felony, and have had the proper training.
Guns aren't the phucking problem here....and making stricter laws isn't going to solve chit. Whacked out people are the problem...and that is NOT ever going to change.
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Couple of questions for you Machiavelli...
What the hell do you mean by "wrong guns"?
How do you propose that we keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys"?
What LAW do think will accomplish this?
I dont know.. illegal fully automatic weapons will get you a nice sentence... YOU DONT SEE TO MANY OF THEM ON THE STREET NOW DO YOU?
The fact is...there is NO LAW that will stop the guns from getting into the hands of the "bad guys"...
FYI..."bad guys" don't obey the law, that is what makes em "bad guys"...
I guess you just dont realize how many illegal guuns are out there
Are you kidding me...I live in DETROIT! This city is full of em...making a new law won't make em disappear, nor will it stop the bad guys from purchasing them.
There are already background checks, waiting periods etc. to buy a handgun here in Michigan. If you are already a CCW holder then you can buy one over the counter. Why...because you have already been checked out, have never been convicted of felony, and have had the proper training.
Guns aren't the phucking problem here....and making stricter laws isn't going to solve chit. Whacked out people are the problem...and that is NOT ever going to change.
So your telling me Detroit has a "whacked out people problem" and not a gun problem? LMAO!
And you think NYC or the 5 boroughs dont have whackos? You see you have to really go out of your way to get a gun here LEGALLY. Hell I couldnt even tell where there was a Gun shop. I remember where they used to be. Pssssssssssst...... look at the numbers where we stand as far as "most dangerous cities"...
How bout a 30 year sentence for illegal gun for starters? You know kinda like if you got caught with a couple of keys of coke.
Funny thing, you live in the most dangerous city in the country for 07. and god knows how many years its been the "Murder Capital" Your answer is to arm everybody. Arent you already getting a taste of that.
LOL I could see why youre so paranoid about laying yours down....WHEN NOBODY ASKED YOU TOO.
I cant go on about this cause frankly I dont know the laws that vary from state to state. I just dont understand with the fact that, all these guns have "VIN" numbers on them. So in each and every situtation an illegal gun will eventually lead back to a source of ownership.
-Are they always reported stolen or missing?
-who were they stolen or missing from?
-do you let a guy keep his right who keeps LOSING HIS GUNS?
-------------------- "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication"
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posted
Look...it really is very simple. Granted, folks try to make it complicated, which has resulted in considerations becoming complex.
But the bottom line is this: bullies and thugs have been with us as long as "the poor" and prostitution. (Maybe even longer...if you think that through.)
Without guns--at least around here--the thugs and bullies would be confident they would win any home invasion, mugging, etc. True, they *might* lose a few, but training peeps to fight with a knife, to defend against a zip gun, etc. is much a *greater* training challenge. And to tell it straight? Most simply don't have the physical prowess.
The "Gunless Utopia" is, like most utopias, a dream that is nice--but ultimately unfeasible.
May as well pin badges on the gangs...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by T e x: Look...it really is very simple. Granted, folks try to make it complicated, which has resulted in considerations becoming complex.
But the bottom line is this: bullies and thugs have been with us as long as "the poor" and prostitution. (Maybe even longer...if you think that through.)
Without guns--at least around here--the thugs and bullies would be confident they would win any home invasion, mugging, etc. True, they *might* lose a few, but training peeps to fight with a knife, to defend against a zip gun, etc. is much a *greater* training challenge. And to tell it straight? Most simply don't have the physical prowess.
The "Gunless Utopia" is, like most utopias, a dream that is nice--but ultimately unfeasible.
May as well pin badges on the gangs...
I guess Cops and similar law enforcement who are very well trained are just for show...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by T e x: Look...it really is very simple. Granted, folks try to make it complicated, which has resulted in considerations becoming complex.
But the bottom line is this: bullies and thugs have been with us as long as "the poor" and prostitution. (Maybe even longer...if you think that through.)
Without guns--at least around here--the thugs and bullies would be confident they would win any home invasion, mugging, etc. True, they *might* lose a few, but training peeps to fight with a knife, to defend against a zip gun, etc. is much a *greater* training challenge. And to tell it straight? Most simply don't have the physical prowess.
The "Gunless Utopia" is, like most utopias, a dream that is nice--but ultimately unfeasible.
May as well pin badges on the gangs...
I guess Cops and similar law enforcement who are very well trained are just for show...
No, I wouldn't go that far...
There's been a few times in my life that I was VERY HAPPY the cops showed up.
Mostly, though, neighborhood stuff is beyond most beat-cop comprehension. They have an agenda that is *not* about truth, but instead is about reducing paperwork...ie, *their* paperwork
Mach? I would compare them to broker-peeps...most you encounter first-round are lucky to understand the distinction between mathematics and arithmetic
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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