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Author Topic: VETERANS DISARMAMENT ACT
glassman
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Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).


everybody who wants to give up their right to bear arms?

EXIT here:

 -

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Machiavelli
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quote:
holy crap:

this mean anything to you?
 -

not a damn thing has changed. the only thing that's changed is the technology...

several million, probably tens of millions of Native Americans were wiped out with those "outdated weapons"

That technology and the lack of good and effective gun control laws is what created out of control criminals then and now... instead of saying we should have very strict gun control laws so the guns and such do not get into the wrong hands you all b*tch about your rights being trampled on about owning guns... but no one's rights are being trampled on except the criminals and mentally ill... make sense? ...

As for the Native Americans being wiped out with those outdated weapons... we'll even if one bullet missed it's intended target it would most likely hit another behind or beside hime... but that was warfare and not guns being used in non-war use like robberies and other crimes... besides I also recall that small pox was used to try to wipe out the Native Americans... I don't see us possessing that in the private sector.. the right to bear Germs in "self-defense"?... wonder why... oh yeah that's right because it causes death and destruction... [Roll Eyes]

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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
---Alexander Hamilton

He also got blown away by a gun so I think if he were still alive he may think a little differently about the issue lol .. .

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).


everybody who wants to give up their right to bear arms?

EXIT here:

 -

Yeah we'll I'm sure alot of people in this country feel drug laws are very oppressive & unjust... want to have a free for all with drugs on your children as well... Guns contribute nothing good to society except death... All I'm saying is if you must own a gun because it makes you feel like man then so be it... but why let everyone own guns... what is so wrong with putting controls so the wrong people do not own them like criminals and mentally ill people?... We tend to have more stringent background checks in the job interviewing/application process then we do with guns... hell would you want to get a blood transfusion without having it checked first to see if it has AIDS or not? .. same thing.. if you want guns then fine... but there is no reason WHATSOEVER that there shouldn't be gun control laws that make it very difficult for criminals and mentally ill people to own them.... gun control laws are pretty much left to the states right now and the guns on the streets of NY are bought in states like Virginia and other southern states why? ... because the South don't give a sh*t about more guns ending up on the streets... if Gun Control Laws are not passed to prevent such things then I'm all for Bloomberg and other politicians from other states in suing out of state gun store owners... maybe if you hit them and their state in the pockets then perhaps they will listen and learn...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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IWISHIHAD
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Not much disagreement in what you said Machievalli.

We make things better and better in most cases as time go on. Is it necessarily better in a long run. Sometimes it is sometimes it is not, at least that's how i look at it.

As far as talking about what came first the chicken or the egg, that's another discussion. (guns, bad guys)

But for me there is a bottom line to this. I think the only way you stop a lot of the bad guys with guns is to increase surveilliance a lot more. Like you said Machieville we are getting more and more of that any way, that's what really scares me. The bads guys with guns scare me a lot less than all the rights we are losing to protect us.

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Machiavelli
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I don't mind surveillance on criminals and such as long as it's done legally... with a court order... but a guy with a gun shooting me scares me more then rights violations... rights violations can be battled in courts... but the cycle of a bad guy shooting people doesn't stop... but can be prevented...

Read today in my local newspaper that a 16 yr old was shot by a black youth after the youth asked the 16 yr old for directions... no heated exchange of words happened.. just shot him for no reason in the neck... luckily he survived... and this happened in my neighborhood which is very middle to upper middle class and about the most exciting crime that happens here is juvenile vandalism... so it seems this violence is spreading into quiet neighborhoods now.. and i have no doubt the shooter in this case acquired a gun in the black market that was probably and most likely bought in the South somewhere in a gun shop and then transported here... this 16 yr old could of been your kid... so perhaps you should think about that and not yourselves for once...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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IWISHIHAD
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The surveilliance will not and is not just on criminals, that is the point.

Machiavelli, I do not think anyone here is disagreeing with certain restrictions on gun possession.
The question is are the restrictions being placed on these indivuals fair and just as far as this law (page 1) is concerned?

I still have no idea where you stand on vet law issue. It seems like one time you are on one side of the issue then the next you are on the opposite by your statements.

Are you saying that All mentally ill people should have there gun rights taken away for forever?

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glassman
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but why let everyone own guns... what is so wrong with putting controls so the wrong people do not own them like criminals and mentally ill people?... We tend to have more stringent background checks in the job interviewing/application process then we do with guns...

this is just not true.

i already showed you the laws, they exist, and they should be enforced...

if you went to legally purchase a gun tomorrow, you'd have to get a background check. what goes in the background check is the question here.

In 2005, two female Virginia Tech students reported being stalked by Cho, but they chose not to press charges. Yet after talking to him, campus police recommended he be detained for mental evaluation.

Cho was evaluated at a local psychiatric hospital. A doctor there found him depressed, but said Cho denied being suicidal. The next day, a state magistrate found Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but did not find he was a threat to others.

The magistrate recommended outpatient treatment as opposed to involuntary commitment. It's unclear what follow-up treatment Cho had.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june07/guncontrol_04-20.html


if you want to open all medical records to anybody and everybody? you are crazy...
people will then be asking for your medical records before they hire you too...

The Federal Gun Control Act, ever since 1968, has prohibited the possession by a person or the sale to a person who is what they call mentally defective. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms wrote a regulation, and that regulation says that that category includes a person who has been found by some kind of official body to be a danger to himself or others.

Cho was found to be a danger to himself or others when he was brought before a magistrate. The magistrate had the option to commit him but found that less restrictive treatment, the outpatient treatment, would be sufficient. Yet even though he wasn't committed, that's sufficient under federal law to bar him for the rest of his life from ever possessing a firearm.

And, in fact, there's a case from the federal district court of Michigan, U.S. v. Vertz, that finds exactly that, that, in a very similar situation, the Federal Gun Control Act did apply and prohibited the person from having a gun.


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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
The surveilliance will not and is not just on criminals, that is the point.

Machiavelli, I do not think anyone here is disagreeing with certain restrictions on gun possession.
The question is are the restrictions being placed on these indivuals fair and just as far as this law (page 1) is concerned?

I still have no idea where you stand on vet law issue. It seems like one time you are on one side of the issue then the next you are on the opposite by your statements.

Are you saying that All mentally ill people should have there gun rights taken away for forever?

I don't think Vet's should be singled out but the law should be expanded to mean anyone with a severe enough case of PTSD... that does not mean everyone who has this disease but to mean only the more severe cases that shows a prevalence for violence or suicide attempts...

And nope not all mentally ill people should have their gun rights taken away. Should be on a case by case basis and some mental diseases should be automatic like schizophrenia for example. And once you are ruled a danger to yourself or others it should be put in a national database when the background check for gun ownership is conducted. As of now it seems there is only a background check within the state where the gun is being purchased and not outside of that state. Hence why alot of guns end up on the streets of NY that are bought out of state by people who have criminal backgrounds or mental incapacity.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:

this is just not true.

i already showed you the laws, they exist, and they should be enforced...

if you went to legally purchase a gun tomorrow, you'd have to get a background check. what goes in the background check is the question here.

Laws get outdated and should be updated... anyways the laws you cited are not enforced and gun owners such as yourself don't make a big stink about them not being enforced because it's not hitting your wallet... perhaps if you made a big stink about the laws being enforced the issue of Gun Control will never come up again... make sense? ... And it should be a national background check and not a local/state background check the way it seems now...

quote:
if you want to open all medical records to anybody and everybody? you are crazy...
people will then be asking for your medical records before they hire you too...

not to anybody or everybody... just for gun background checks and only mental health records... it would prevent alot of deaths in the long run... you sign a waiver letting mental health records to be included in such things for gun ownership... not unreasonable in my book... if you still want your right to own a gun and want to prevent them from getting into the wrong hands... make sense?

quote:
The Federal Gun Control Act, ever since 1968, has prohibited the possession by a person or the sale to a person who is what they call mentally defective. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms wrote a regulation, and that regulation says that that category includes a person who has been found by some kind of official body to be a danger to himself or others.

Cho was found to be a danger to himself or others when he was brought before a magistrate. The magistrate had the option to commit him but found that less restrictive treatment, the outpatient treatment, would be sufficient. Yet even though he wasn't committed, that's sufficient under federal law to bar him for the rest of his life from ever possessing a firearm.

And, in fact, there's a case from the federal district court of Michigan, U.S. v. Vertz, that finds exactly that, that, in a very similar situation, the Federal Gun Control Act did apply and prohibited the person from having a gun.

Obviously with Cho it didn't work :

"Cho paid $571 for a 9 mm Glock 19 pistol just over a month ago, the owner of Roanoke Firearms told CNN Tuesday. He also used a .22-caliber Walther pistol in the attack, police said. (Interactive: The weapons used in the shootings)

John Markell said Cho was very low-key when he purchased the Glock and 50 rounds of ammunition with a credit card in an "unremarkable" purchase.

Cho presented three forms of identification and did not say why he wanted the gun, Markell said. (Watch how quickly these guns can be fired, reloaded )

State police conducted an instant background check that probably took about a minute, the store owner said."

Hell of a background check there Glass... a 1 minute background check... DNA, job and other "checks" take longer then that & done properly...

a background check imo should take 30 days or have a waiting period of 30 days to be conducted properly and nationally and not statewide only like in Virginia... there is no need to get the gun now if your a legit person... you can wait 30 days...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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background checks are national...

i suggested ahwile back that this program could also be used to ID illegal immgrant employees...

because it works pretty well. there's always exceptions to every rule tho:

In November 1993, the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 (Brady Act), Public Law 103-159, was signed into law requiring Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to request background checks on individuals attempting to purchase a firearm. The permanent provisions of the Brady Act, which went into effect on November 30, 1998, required the Attorney General to establish the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) that any FFL may contact by telephone or by other electronic means for information, to be supplied immediately, on whether receipt of a firearm by a prospective transferee would violate section 922 (g) or (n) of title 18, United States Code, or state law.

The NICS is a national system that checks available records in the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), Interstate Identification Index (III), and the NICS Index to determine if prospective purchasers are disqualified from receiving firearms.



The FBI developed the NICS through a cooperative effort with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) and local and state law enforcement agencies. The NICS is designed to respond within 30 seconds to background inquiries to provide FFLs with an immediate answer as to whether the transfer of a firearm would violate state or federal law.



http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsindex.htm

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glassman
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Definitions of Prohibiting Categories
1) Persons who are aliens and are illegally or unlawfully in the United States

2) Persons who have renounced their U.S. Citizenship

3) Persons who have been adjudicated as a mental defective or have been committed to a mental institution

Criteria for Entry

The Department of Veteran Affairs, the Depart-ment of Defense, and state law enforcement have the authority to enter and update records on persons who have been adjudicated as mental defectives or have been committed to mental institutions.

4) Persons who have been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable discharge conditions

5) Persons who are unlawful users of or addicted to any controlled substance

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Machiavelli
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quote:
background checks are national...

i suggested ahwile back that this program could also be used to ID illegal immgrant employees...

because it works pretty well. there's always exceptions to every rule though

Works pretty well? LOL I'm not sure what world you are living in Glass but it's not ours... look at the news... obviously it's not working "pretty well"... and obviously a persons criminal background and not their mental background is about the only thing that is checked... and if it's national then why is it so easy to buy in some states as opposed to other states if the same national check is being used? ...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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i think in Mexico the people aren't allowed to have guns...

but they are all coming here for some reason? maybe we have it right?

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Machiavelli
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yeah the reason is economics more and not guns... so not sure why you bringing another country citizens into this... were discussing the U.S. and it's citizens gun rights...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

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glassman
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because it's part of the system of freedom...

in Mexico? aren't the Federales pretty much in charge of every facet of life?

don't they skim off everybody? isn't that why Mexico is so "economically depressed"?

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Machiavelli
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we'll Glass... if you want to dodge my question about background checks with a non issue as Mexico about gun control then so be it... it just shows me you don't have a answer for the question...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
we'll Glass... if you want to dodge my question about background checks with a non issue as Mexico about gun control then so be it... it just shows me you don't have a answer for the question...

you mean this?

and if it's national then why is it so easy to buy in some states as opposed to other states if the same national check is being used? ...


each state has it's own laws, i thought it was a rhetorical question...

nobody on th elist can buy a gun legally tho...

of course nobody can buy METH legally either, but plenty do and will..

and the meth mostly comes from Mexico now... where the Federales run the show.

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Relentless.
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The second amendment doesn't have clauses.. just as the First doesn't.
The constitution is NOT a living document... it does NOT adapt.
The constitution was written as regulations for government.. with the full knowledge that government is inherently evil and power hungry.
Why is it that so many wish to give government more rights than we the people hold?
Perhaps it's intentional amnesia.

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glassman
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fear.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
The second amendment doesn't have clauses.. just as the First doesn't.
The constitution is NOT a living document... it does NOT adapt.
The constitution was written as regulations for government.. with the full knowledge that government is inherently evil and power hungry.
Why is it that so many wish to give government more rights than we the people hold?
Perhaps it's intentional amnesia.

It evolves when a amendment does not work such as when Prohibition was repealed...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
we'll Glass... if you want to dodge my question about background checks with a non issue as Mexico about gun control then so be it... it just shows me you don't have a answer for the question...

you mean this?

and if it's national then why is it so easy to buy in some states as opposed to other states if the same national check is being used? ...


each state has it's own laws, i thought it was a rhetorical question...

nobody on th elist can buy a gun legally tho...

of course nobody can buy METH legally either, but plenty do and will..

and the meth mostly comes from Mexico now... where the Federales run the show.

Exactly... individual state laws is what puts guns in the black market easier therefor making that national background check void & useless... there needs to be a national law for it at least in regards to out of state buyers to make it tougher on them to purchase a gun if they are not suppose to have one for either criminal or mental reasons....

Other then that what is your obsession with Mexico? ... we are not talking about their right to bear arms under our Constitution...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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you mean NYC whines because they can't keep people from getting guns if they want them?

isn't that the same argument about illegal immigrants and drugs?

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Machiavelli
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I'm not talking just about NYC... illegal guns is a major problem just as big as illegal immigration and drugs but you do not seem to see that... and because it is our local and national laws should be looked at to close loopholes or other problems... if it did Cho perhaps would not have been in possession of weapons and the VA Tech massacre might not have happened... is that so difficult to understand? no one is trying to take your legal guns... just the illegal guns that are used in crimes year in and year out... because it is so easy to cross a state line and buy from a state such as Virginia which is very lax in their laws to buy a gun for criminals etc...

--------------------
Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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uh? i do know that ILLEGAL guns are problem. i lived in VA for about 7 years. and i am quite familiar with the fact that VA residents sell guns in other states..

however? that's gun-running, and is a felony...

Virginia state law on mental health disqualifications to firearms purchases, however, is worded slightly differently from the federal statute. So the form that Virginia courts use to notify state police about a mental health disqualification addresses only the state criteria, which list two potential categories that would warrant notification to the state police: someone who was “involuntarily committed” or ruled mentally “incapacitated.
Because Cho was not involuntarily committed to a mental health facility as an inpatient, he was still legally eligible to buy guns under Virginia law. According to Virginia law, "A magistrate has the authority to issue a detention order upon a finding that a person is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization or treatment." The magistrate also must find that the person is an imminent danger to himself or others. Virginia officials and other law experts have argued that, under United States federal law, Justice Barnett's order meant that Cho had been "adjudicated as a mental defective" and was thus ineligible to purchase firearms under federal law.

what makes you think he couldn't have gotten a gun illegally if he wanted a gun? he could buy drugs, get a hooker, why not a gun?

During February and March 2007, Cho began purchasing the weapons that he later used during the killings. On February 9, 2007, Cho purchased his first handgun, a .22 caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic pistol, from TGSCOM Inc., a federally-licensed firearms dealer based in Green Bay, Wisconsin and the operator of the website through which Cho ordered the gun. TGSCOM Inc. shipped the Walther P22 to JND Pawnbrokers in Blacksburg, Virginia, where Cho completed the legally-required background check for the purchase transaction and took possession of the handgun. Cho bought a second handgun, a Glock 19 semiautomatic pistol, on March 13, 2007 from Roanoke Firearms, a licensed gun dealer located in Roanoke, Virginia.

Cho was able to pass both background checks and successfully complete both handgun purchases after he presented to the gun dealers his U.S. permanent residency card, his Virginia driver's permit to prove legal age and length of Virginia residence and a checkbook showing his Virginia address, in addition to waiting the required 30-day period between each gun purchase. He was successful at completing both handgun purchases, even though he had failed to disclose information on the background questionnaire about his mental health that required court-ordered outpatient treatment at a mental health facility.

he lied, how do expect to catch every single liar out here? heck the White House lies every day Clinton and Bush both.

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glassman
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gun-running happens at all levels too:

Allegations of Blackwater gun-running
Malaysia Sun
Saturday 22nd September, 2007

U.S federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater illegally sold U.S bought weapons on the Iraqi black market.

Officials are concerned about the activities of some Blackwater staff, who they say might have sold weapons to a U.S-designated terrorist organisation.

U.S. attorneys have already concluded there is enough evidence to file charges.


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Machiavelli
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I didn't say VA residents going to NY or whatever state to sell guns... I am saying NY residents or whatever state residents going to VA to buy guns because it's easier to in VA with their lax laws as is the case with Cho who under federal law should not have been sold a gun but did under state law... cannot have two laws but only follow one because you want to make a fast buck and could care less about the publics safety...

As for Cho buying a illegal gun.. well he would have to have connections and from what I read about him... he didn't sound very sociable or have any friends to do so .... I myself wouldn't know where to buy a illegal gun and i live in NY which is probably the biggest illegal gun market...

I guess you did not read my earlier post where the gun dealer in Va said the background check took only 1 minute to do for Cho to purchase the 9mm Glock... so what 30 days? ... as for him lying on a questionairre about his mental state.. what did you expect Cho to say? that he's a mental psycho? LOL ... that's not a way to block mentally ill people from possessing guns... by asking them if they are mentally ill? LOL ... get real... geez... in the background check to see if someone has a criminal record there should be something about a person's mental state... that is the problem in the case of Cho... there is no national database for such a thing and it is a loophole or flaw...

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glassman
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and i'm telling you i KNOW EXACTLY how it works..
VA resident sell the guns, NOT licensed dealers..
but they are no better than drug dealers...

re-read that paragraph about how he waited 30 days to get each gun and filled out all the proper forms..

VA laws are not lax anymore...
they were a few years back, and NYC complained like hell until they changed them.. you have to prove you are a resident of the state you purchase a handgun in..


two factors in this case are glaring

1) the judge didn't commit Cho, he "allowed" Cho to go voluntarily.. a plea deal..
2) the two girls he stalked refused to press charges.. had they pressed charges? he woulda had to buy the guns illegally... which he woulda done.. cuz it's not the guns, it's the people that are "messetup"

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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
gun-running happens at all levels too:

Allegations of Blackwater gun-running
Malaysia Sun
Saturday 22nd September, 2007

U.S federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater illegally sold U.S bought weapons on the Iraqi black market.

Officials are concerned about the activities of some Blackwater staff, who they say might have sold weapons to a U.S-designated terrorist organisation.

U.S. attorneys have already concluded there is enough evidence to file charges.

Mercernaries who do illegal things... you wouldn't think lol ...

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Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
and i'm telling you i KNOW EXACTLY how it works..
VA resident sell the guns, NOT licensed dealers..
but they are no better than drug dealers...

re-read that paragraph about how he waited 30 days to get each gun and filled out all the proper forms..

VA laws are not lax anymore...
they were a few years back, and NYC complained like hell until they changed them.. you have to prove you are a resident of the state you purchase a handgun in..


two factors in this case are glaring

1) the judge didn't commit Cho, he "allowed Cho to go voluntarily.. a plea deal..
2) the two girls he stalked refused to rpess charges.. had they pressed cahrges? he woulda had to buy the guns illegally... which he woulda done.. cuz it's not the guns, it's the people that are "messetup"

30 days background check eh? reread my earlier post: "Cho paid $571 for a 9 mm Glock 19 pistol just over a month ago, the owner of Roanoke Firearms told CNN Tuesday. He also used a .22-caliber Walther pistol in the attack, police said. (Interactive: The weapons used in the shootings)

John Markell said Cho was very low-key when he purchased the Glock and 50 rounds of ammunition with a credit card in an "unremarkable" purchase.

Cho presented three forms of identification and did not say why he wanted the gun, Markell said. (Watch how quickly these guns can be fired, reloaded )

State police conducted an instant background check that probably took about a minute, the store owner said."

As for Virginia's licensed gun dealers are not selling guns illegally?... read this article and many more i can post :

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/17/2007-04-17_yes_virginia_gu ns_kill_innocents-2.html

"You even yukked it up with a "Bloomberg Gun GiveAway" raffle at a gun shop that sold at least 22 guns used in crimes in New York.

You went into a tizzy when Mayor Bloomberg sued some of your gun shops after undercover agents made fraudulent "straw purchases."

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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the mercs have in the past also been known to be very disrepectful to the troops...

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glassman
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in addition to waiting the required 30-day period between each gun purchase

this law was set up to cut down on gun-running...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
in addition to waiting the required 30-day period between each gun purchase

this law was set up to cut down on gun-running...

30 days does not stop gun running.. just delays it...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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glassman
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buy 12 hand guns a year and you'll be on the "to do list" at the ATF...

it's not VA's fault that the only people wth guns in NYC are criminals and cops.. and there's 1000 criminals for every cop, and there always will be.

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Machiavelli
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no it's not VA's fault there are criminals in this world... it is VA's fault if they sell to those criminals...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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