posted
This is a Nam style breakdown of command. I've seen GI'S turn on other GI'S just as fast as they do on local nationals..Without a good command structure, these things will happen.
Blind Hate, frustration with command, fear, these combinations fueled by people of poor Moral values is always a recipe for this kind of Horror..
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Well, I can go with my own expieriance in a War not Won or finished..
Unlike WW2 when we had a complete Victory and surrender, Nam and Iraq will never have a complete and overwhelming Victory by us...
We will eventually be forced out by Public opinion at home.
The Troops in Iraq? They know that. Commanders in the feild have to stop the genicide in the field before it ever happens..
In my Unit in Nam we heard the rumor that the CO told his subordinates that if he ever cought anything going on outside of regular Combat or transportation ops, he would personanly take his side arm and shoot the person responsible..
There had been problems, after that? NONE!
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
We must expect this type of news to come out.
I cannot think of any modern war which has not produced horrors like this.
Factors for this are many but I believe comes down to emotions. During war, soldiers, men and women alike, form extremely close bonds. A death of a soldier becomes very personal and survivors will seek revenge. This is almost a type of temporary insanity. These acts are very wrong but some compassion is due.
What really bothers me is daily atrocities committed by terrorists and insurgents in Iraq have become daily business; no outcry, no objection, just the expected.
A small handful of our soldiers lose control because a fellow soldier is killed by cowardly ambush, this becomes world headline news and all are calling for thier heads.
Suddenly, America is the Evil Satan slaughtering the world and events like 9-11 fall to the wayside.
Our soldiers who committed these murders should be punished, no doubt. However, punishment should be tempered with compassion not dealt as a harsh lesson to appease foreign political critics.
I am tired of our boys and girls in our military becoming sacrifices for appeasement of those who would kill us all, given half a chance.
posted
On Rumsfeld, he is as much of an idiot as are Cheney and Bush. Those three constantly claim support of our troops and patriotism.
Those three sent our troops to war without good support, without needed equipment, without needed arms. They also sent our troops to war without a good war plan, without a plan to win the war.
This is Vietnam all over again.
Idiots, Iraq could have been taken with very few deaths, on both sides. Instead charging headlong into Baghdad, we have sufficient troops and weapons to have simply encircled Iraq along its borders, perform a seige, then bomb civilians with food, water, medicine, clothing...
posted
Purl, in the heat of Combat? Yes things happen.. Comes with the territory.
Been there, felt the rage.
But, the way I understand this, 5 hours of torture is not in the heat of Combat..I hope to hell my source's are correct, otherwise I may of made a terrible mistake here.
Interrogation of local nationals and prisoners is an absolute must..Good field Officers and NCO'S are very good at it...'Specialy trained Warrent Officers as well, as are CIA opertives.. These men and women can be very well trained in interrogation techniques.
Problem? Well it generaly doesn't work that way, in the heat of combat generaly there is no time To call HEADQUARTERS for an interigation team..
Thats my point, good Officers and NCO'S in the feild can get the job done right, without these things going haywire. Most of us were just kids, who had to become men sometimes in a split second. War is HELL!
Woman and children can be used as sappers, seen it happen.
These troops are under a kind of pressure that rivals anything that Nam could dish out. I think to some extent it may even be worse..These Troops went into Combat with a high degree of certainty of Victory, now? look what they have.
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
What really angers me is none in the chain of command will suffer punishment. These torture incidents, the prison stuff, now this, all are a direct failure of commanders.
I am not suggesting the grunts are without blame but am suggesting how wrong it is for our military to look at the grunts only and not look at quality of command and training.
Our boys and girls should not be out there alone making decisions in critical situations like this. A seasoned commander, an older gunny, somebody with years of experience should be with them to both protect and to command. Our soldiers are the best but our soldiers are truly just kids.
"Following orders" is not an excuse, never. Nonetheless, someone ordered those killings. I will not believe all those soldiers lost control and acted at random. Someone directed them and led them; chain of command.
Some responsibility must be taken by those in immediate command of those soldiers.
posted
Arm chair internet stock board posters offering Iraqi war strategy...and I thought Mitch Hedburg made me laugh hysterically.
"Iraq could have been taken with very few deaths, on both sides"...might be one of the damndest things I have ever read.
With regard to the Haditha incident: I will wait until a full investigation enlightens us with details. Until then, speculation is irresponsible and damaging. If there were ever a reason to re-introduce the duel into American politics: Jack Murtha.
Posts: 456 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Speculation about this incident maybe, no speculation about this happening just how many times will it happen before the war ends. When i saw this release a few days ago was no big suprise after reading about all the car bombs etc. this might be the first one that got out to the public or maybe just the worst, someone is going to take the heat but the war is the blame.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
People speculate to examine themselves and test out new ideas. It is a method of learning that is invaluable. Can there be damage done by misinformation. Certainly. That's why facts and courts...not public opinion...hand down punishment.
The more transperant an entity is the less likely there will be misinformation spread by educated people. That is something the current administration obviously does not understand. Or pretends not to understand to cover illicit actions.
People talk, fact of life. If there is controversy people will talk more. If there is controversy and those involved say that the information was "leaked" and was a serious "threat" to operations...That tells there are secret burried, and nothing gets people talking more than a possible conspiracy.
This admin has done more damage to themselves in the handling of these topics than any group of individuals debating the issues ever could.
Don't hate the player baby...hate the game.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Dustoff, remember the video of Saddam out in public greeting people? You can clearly see his eyes scanning roof lines. He was really paranoid about being killed, a gesture of knowing he is guilty.
I agree with assassination of key leaders. We would have needed to take out his sons as well. With spook skills, poisons and modern technology, easy to take them out and not be discovered.
Our government, of course, claims we do not engage in political assassinations which is a big load of crap.
For five-hundred-million, ten-thousand hard core mercenaries would line up to kill him.
My thoughts are we could have financially strangled Iraq through shutting down all imports and exports. Key port in the south, close the Turkish - Kurd border, which the Kurds would help do, we were already in Kuwait, stretch out along the Syrian border, air patrol the rest, instant strangle hold.
Air drop food, water, medicine, clothing and other essentials to areas in need, soon the government implodes.
Remove the flow of money, you own a country.
Reminds me of a story dating back centuries, hmm, maybe The Lion In Winter or Camelot. A castle and surrounding city are surrounded and under siege. Outside, the invading force catapults in food, over and over. Not long, citizens inside kill the royalty and open the city gates.
posted
i dunno guys we better not have any opinions about anything..... some "genius" might critisize us....
of course the current admin felt there was/is no need to consult history since we are now in the 21st century, and besides all the history books are "revisionist" so there's nothing to be learned there anyway.......
anybody notice the Afghani's are getting restlesss now too?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i dunno guys we better not have any opinions about anything..... some "genius" might critisize us....
Grow up.
Note what I said, glassman: "With regard to the Haditha incident: I will wait until a full investigation enlightens us with details. Until then, speculation is irresponsible and damaging."
People have already adjudicated this case in the court of public opinion. I believe that is wrong. I love reading other people's speculations about how to handle world events. But people making emphatic statements about Haditha or hillarious comments about how Iraq could be taken with “very few deaths, ON BOTH SIDES" - I have a God-given right to laugh at such ignorant/naïve comments.
Anyway, I believe this Marine (Staff Sgt. Robert Talley), who spent early 2004 in Fallujah , did a good job of articulating some of the issues surrounding the current allegations being made of our men and women in uniform: Story
[ June 02, 2006, 10:30: Message edited by: westcott ]
Posts: 456 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
wescott is simply our latest version of the Party line dufus.
That's the current BS from the Party......wait to have an opinion until the Party machinery has manipulated the data so we can say it's all ok and dubya and the rest of the shrubery and anything they do is all ok.
They come and go here. Brainless adherents to the Party. Have you noticed they all eventually go away?
This (one) too will pass.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
once again W? you looked at the wrong statement that "drew my fire"
Arm chair internet stock board posters offering Iraqi war strategy...and I thought Mitch Hedburg made me laugh hysterically.
i tend to respond "in kind".....
i happen to believe the Iraq war has been fought in such a way as to inflame tensions in the mideast... intentionally or not? i dunno... maybe it's just more hubrus?
but i can say that "shock and awe" says it all....
it's almost as if Rummy believes the people of the mideast would rollover cuz they have no pride...
remember "bring it on" ? well they did.....
we were going to be "welcomed as liberators" another misconception....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
i highly recomend this documnetary W... i was quite surpprised at the honesty... i caught most of it on Memorial day
Combat Diary: The Marines of Lima Company® “Combat Diary: The Marines of Lima Company ”
Rated: TVPG L Running Time: 120 Minutes Genre: Movies Closed Captions: Yes
Upcoming Airings: Saturday, June 03 * 11am/10C
Search for other upcoming episodes
Featuring candid interviews and never-before-seen video, we tell the story of the hardest hit combat unit of the Iraq war. Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines, a reserve unit out of Columbus, Ohio was deployed to Iraq from February 28-September 30, 2005. This two-hour documentary captures significant moments from their tour of duty, including dramatic combat missions. COMBAT DIARY: THE MARINES OF LIMA COMPANY provides an unprecedented and harrowing window into the harsh reality of war.
you may be able to watch it at this site? i dunno, but it is 2 hours.....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I won't call westcott a fool or an idiot or just plain too dumb to count, then point out where what he says proves the point.........he manages that without help.
By now, even the nearest to absolute brain dead among the Party loyalist and spreaders of Party line BS have learned that is not going to cut it. Where does that leave this one?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hey Dustoff I saw you sticking up for the wounded vets over on the NDOL thread. I apprieciate that old man. I was thinking I would get involved, really thinking alot about it, but I figured my energy would be better served flipping the damn stock and taking some of that money. Keep watching it, if it loses 10% a day it won't bounce, but since the numbers are getting smaller the % lost is going to get greater. This will be a flippers paradise. Don't let them get the best of you, you get the best of them. And trust me some have noticed the crap that was said over there today. At least 4 that I know of within 5 miles of me. I still like North West, but this stock is getting to a position that can make you 2000 dollars in a day.
-------------------- skids are for kids Posts: 206 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
"Hey Dustoff I saw you sticking up for the wounded vets over on the NDOL thread. I apprieciate that old man. I was thinking I would get involved...."
No, you boys leave this alone. Those are people not worth your time nor your dignity. They are the cowardly of life, the cheats of life. Do not soil your dignity through giving them any serious attention.
A uniform does not make a soldier. A brave and true heart makes a soldier.
Dusty, you are a soldier.
Hey, Training Wheels Fly Boy, I am keeping an eye on NDOL, as well. Several times I have mentioned there is potential. There is no potential now, but this could change setting off another speculation run. Prices are becoming more attractive but I think NDOL will fall a bit more next week, next two weeks, which will reduce risks greatly. This is a stock you will want to buy, if you buy, at rock bottom prices to help ensure you will not lose much if it totally tanks.
Dusty, many are proud of you, I am proud of you and you have every right to be proud.
Pleases me to call you friend even if you are a Bush supporter.
quote:Originally posted by Purl Gurl: Hey! I am a civilian fool!
* pouts *
Watch it, buster, I am an American Indian and you know what we are like! Might come up to Oregon and open a casino just to take your money.
Purl Gurl
------------------------------------------------- Captain Barks! Stop that pouting Gurl! We ain't even around the 'Horn yet! AVAST on the civilian stuff, you know damn well that you do not fit the Seal Skins of the lampreys I is a talking about!
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
A tribute to our men and women who are putting it all on the line for us over in Iraq (turn up the sound on your speakers to get the full impact): Until Then... __________
If the worst-case proves to be true about the Haditha incident then everyone should remember that 99.9% of our servicemen and women act honorably even during the most difficult times. There is a concerted effort by the media and critics of the War in Iraq to re-characterize our troops as one comprised of irresponsible leadership and barbarism. One need only spend a few moments with a group of soldiers to see such attempts to disparage their service is baseless and completely contrived.
Posts: 456 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I do not know if act honorably is the right phrase, it sounds like a old western gunfight where they count to ten and then they draw. In any of the recent wars if you wait till ten to shoot you are dead just send more body bags, it is really about survival in combat and protecting you and your friends lives. There is a very thin line between what has happened here and those 99% of other soldiers that are "Honorable" I think these soldiers are still honorable but had a few minutes of being a "little" more crazy in Combat.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
There is a concerted effort by the media and critics of the War in Iraq to re-characterize our troops as one comprised of irresponsible leadership and barbarism. One need only spend a few moments with a group of soldiers to see such attempts to disparage their service is baseless and completely contrived.
oh? so now i see the media is at fault for reporting news? LOL....
the media has taken casualties too... a lot of casualties.....
i noticed Cavuto on Fox "News" yesterday was complaining just like you are...how come nobody covers the hardships that the troops are putting up with?
well?
two weeks ago? Cavuto was complaining cuz nobody reports the "good" news from Iraq just the "bad"..
the IRONY here? (an' you know i just love irony)
the bad news the media has been reporting was about how many troops are getting injured by IED's...
in other words? please see my current signature......
my sympathy is with the troops even if they did commit murder... maybe that makes me a cold heartless azzz, so be it, i don't care.... unfortunately? geopolitics requires US to punish these guys to keep the new Iraq governmnet from passing a resolution telling US to leave immediately.... which would be a total catastrophe.....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
IWISHIHAD......You must be going thru the same agony as the rest of us..Probably some of us " From that lousy S.E Asian War " ,,,,Vets,,, are re-living some nasty stuff for the last few days. Can't even type the N word today for some reason.
I know your time in the Bush as an infantry Soldier is your buisness....However we have an idea, if not first hand knowledge of how bad things can and do, go wrong...
At the time of an event? your O so right, it's about your Bro's, and yourself second....Don't remember thinking anything about my country except getting home to it...
Seconds seem like minutes, an hour like a day. But the cold hard truth is, it is not minutes or an hour to make decisions, it's split seconds.
I have a sinking feeling that as this thing un-winds it's going to be real bad..Only God, or a higher power can pass judgement on these things, men can punish, but the punishers must have clean hands..
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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i would like to point out that the Iraqi people have harboured the "few" terrorists that make these IED's..... the "terrorists" appear (from a distance) to have had free run of the country whenever US troops are not around....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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