quote:Originally posted by Team Sleep: Call it whatever you want...
For sake of argument, we'll call it pro choice. I guess that makes you feel more comfortable.
Anyway, I just want an answer to my question. And nobody here can give me a good answer. Why is a 5 month old fetus worthy of death but a 6 month old fetus is not worthy of death?
The pro choice argument is that it's not a life until it's born. So why not abort a 9 month fetus? A 5 month old fetus and a 9 month old fetus have all the same organs, bone structure, pysiological make-up, etc.
I just want a good, scientific and logical answer. It's not too much to ask.
Yes it is too much to ask. Because you are not open to any view other than your own. You would not accept any answer to the contrary of your pre-existing ideals.
And it's not a level of comfort as far as postions. Pro-choice means that I am not telling another human being what they can or cannot do with their own body. I am leaving that choice up to the individual. That is pro-choice. And your point of view is so contstricted as to be unable to distinguish the differnce or accept another point of view without prejudice.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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Anyway, I just want an answer to my question. And nobody here can give me a good answer.
The pro choice argument is that it's not a life until it's born. So why not abort a 9 month fetus? A 5 month old fetus and a 9 month old fetus have all the same organs, bone structure, pysiological make-up, etc.
I just want a good, scientific and logical answer. It's not too much to ask.
"Anyway, I just want an answer to my question. And nobody here can give me a good answer."
You haven't beeen denied an answer, you have denied listening to them.
"The pro choice argument is that it's not a life until it's born."
That statement isn't true. It's just the mutterings of a stilted mentality trying to handle questions far deeper than it is capable of discerning or willing to acknowledge. You need to get over the notion that you can restate other's positions in ways you want them to sound, so as to over simplify them. If you actually think that the so called "pro choice" people are defining life as birth, you are way off base. They have a legal argument.
Correctly, until it is born in this country or is naturalized or is granted some form of legal status, the Constitution says it has none of the rights or privileges of a citizen and does not exist as a legally recognized individual holding rights or privileges, i.e., it does not have a right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. There is no provision of the Constitution granting rights of any kind to "life".
"I just want a good, scientific and logical answer. It's not too much to ask."
Yes! It is too much to ask for anyone to explain things you are determined to misunderstand or misrepresent. If you actually wanted "a good scientific and logical answer", you would pay respect to the fundamental precepts of science and logic. You don't, apparantly because you can't handle them and they prove things contrary to the outcomes you desire.
If you wish to base your arguments against abortion on not interfering with God's work, then lets take that to a logical and scientific end. Without the meddling of men in the processes of pregnancy and birth, way more than half of all fetuses never get to birth and of those that do, way less than half live to 6 years old.
We'll all stop interfering and supplying the benifits that man's efforts have brought to the process and and we can have a booming business in funerals for babies. We sure could use the increas in jobs that would bring about to make up for those good paying jobs outsourced to non-democracies around the world by the policies of the Administration.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Abortion Rights are Pro-Life by Leonard Peikoff (January 23, 2003)
Thirty years after Roe V. Wade, no one defends the right to abortion in fundamental, moral terms, which is why the pro-abortion rights forces are on the defensive.
Abortion-rights advocates should not cede the terms "pro-life" and "right to life" to the anti-abortionists. It is a woman's right to her life that gives her the right to terminate her pregnancy.
Nor should abortion-rights advocates keep hiding behind the phrase "a woman's right to choose." Does she have the right to choose murder? That's what abortion would be, if the fetus were a person.
The status of the embryo in the first trimester is the basic issue that cannot be sidestepped. The embryo is clearly pre-human; only the mystical notions of religious dogma treat this clump of cells as constituting a person.
We must not confuse potentiality with actuality. An embryo is a potential human being. It can, granted the woman's choice, develop into an infant. But what it actually is during the first trimester is a mass of relatively undifferentiated cells that exist as a part of a woman's body. If we consider what it is rather than what it might become, we must acknowledge that the embryo under three months is something far more primitive than a frog or a fish. To compare it to an infant is ludicrous.
If we are to accept the equation of the potential with the actual and call the embryo an "unborn child," we could, with equal logic, call any adult an "undead corpse" and bury him alive or vivisect him for the instruction of medical students.
That tiny growth, that mass of protoplasm, exists as a part of a woman's body. It is not an independently existing, biologically formed organism, let alone a person. That which lives within the body of another can claim no right against its host. Rights belong only to individuals, not to collectives or to parts of an individual.
("Independent" does not mean self-supporting--a child who depends on its parents for food, shelter, and clothing, has rights because it is an actual, separate human being.)
"Rights," in Ayn Rand's words, "do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born."
It is only on this base that we can support the woman's political right to do what she chooses in this issue. No other person--not even her husband--has the right to dictate what she may do with her own body. That is a fundamental principle of freedom.
There are many legitimate reasons why a rational woman might have an abortion--accidental pregnancy, rape, birth defects, danger to her health. The issue here is the proper role for government. If a pregnant woman acts wantonly or capriciously, then she should be condemned morally--but not treated as a murderer.
If someone capriciously puts to death his cat or dog, that can well be reprehensible, even immoral, but it is not the province of the state to interfere. The same is true of an abortion which puts to death a far less-developed growth in a woman's body.
If anti-abortionists object that an embryo has the genetic equipment of a human being, remember: so does every cell in the human body.
Abortions are private affairs and often involve painfully difficult decisions with life-long consequences. But, tragically, the lives of the parents are completely ignored by the anti-abortionists. Yet that is the essential issue. In any conflict it's the actual, living persons who count, not the mere potential of the embryo.
Being a parent is a profound responsibility--financial, psychological, moral--across decades. Raising a child demands time, effort, thought and money. It's a full-time job for the first three years, consuming thousands of hours after that--as caretaker, supervisor, educator and mentor. To a woman who does not want it, this is a death sentence.
The anti-abortionists' attitude, however, is: "The actual life of the parents be damned! Give up your life, liberty, property and the pursuit of your own happiness."
Sentencing a woman to sacrifice her life to an embryo is not upholding the "right-to-life."
The anti-abortionists' claim to being "pro-life" is a classic Big Lie. You cannot be in favor of life and yet demand the sacrifice of an actual, living individual to a clump of tissue.
Anti-abortionists are not lovers of life--lovers of tissue, maybe. But their stand marks them as haters of real human beings.
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Oh God! I'm so glad you copied and pasted that onto this thread. Because if it was "Badgedee" replying, she would of thought all of those words up herself and all I would of read would of been "blee blee blah blah blee blah"! Thank you, Jordan Knight!
-------------------- "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE U.S./CHINA CONNECTION"
quote:Originally posted by Team Sleep: I'm sure this ruling will be tied up in litigation for years...
There's one thing pro-abortion people have never been able to answer me on -- if the baby or fetus or whatever you want to call it is not a living human until it's born, why is it not OK to kill it up until the day it's born?
I don't understand this kind of hypocrisy in the pro-abortion camp.
where do you get this "quote" from????
modern science has moved mountains to save premature babies as young as 4 months....
BUT? they don't have a very good survival rate....
the State Legislatures that are passing these laws are doing the "liberals" a favor....
the "conservatives" are going to self-destruct over this issue.... it all sounds good in Church, but out in the REAL world? you can't afford "ooopses", they are too expensive...
yeah this is sane: get rid of welfare, and make abortiuon illegal....
oh yeah, and while you're at it? make everybody pay for their own health care too... just another example of people not in touch with reality... and people aren't gonna stop making love... period..
if Roe v Wade gets overturned? you'll see a major social upheaval like we had in the sixties again...
buncha fools...
the polls are clear and always have been.. 60%plus favor abortion being legal and available to SOME degree... it just shows how out of touch some people are with society in general.
women in SUBURBIA aren't going to go back to being barefoot and pregnant... maybe in SD and MS and a few other states where agriculture is still important? this will go over, but these guys have just set into motion a political machine that will CRUSH the GOP....
[ March 06, 2006, 22:32: Message edited by: glassman ]
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yeah, if they pass a no abortion law, we'd have girls in alleys with hangers up them trying to get an abortion from god knows who. Instead of losing a fetus, we'll lose alot of human life.
Posts: 1632 | From: NJ | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DWE: Did I mention I love little babies? But I also love little baby ducks, old pick-up trucks, slow movin' trains, and rain.
why don't you go live in South Dakota then... you'll love the winters there... i know all about 'em...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
There isn't a lot "human" about people that claim a demand of life over the right to live a good or healthful life for a woman, then support and give money to funds that hire and support the assasination of physicians working in hospitals and clinics where abortions are not turned away.
Mostly the exact same hypocrites scream about abortions that stand outside prisons and cheer during the carrying out of death sentences. They are a sick sick bunch of evil, much like a festering pocket of puss in the heart of civilization. Death is death, no matter what the reason. If it is your contention that it is sacred, then have the honor and integrity to deny any and all killing.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DWE: Nope. Movin' to Miami, Florida hopefully by the end of 2006! I "CAIN'T" WAIT!!! Look out JEB BUSH!!! Here comes D.W.E.!!!
i wooold thank y'all ud wanner be wiff folks o'like mind, yaknow whattamean thankin jess liken yurseff?? miami is BLUE buddy.... blue blue blue
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
YOU'RE RIGHT! BLUE WATER, PALM TREES, WHITE SAND AND SUN.. LOTS OF SUN! WAS THERE IN FEBRUARY FOR A WEEK MET SHAQUILLE "THE SHAQ" OF THE MIAMI HEAT. LOTS OF BEAUTIFUL CUBANAS IN MIAMI, ESPECIALLY IN SOUTH BEACH. BEATS THE HELL OUT OF CALIFORNIA ANY DAY! I'M ON MY WAY, MIAMI!!!
-------------------- "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE U.S./CHINA CONNECTION"
posted
Assuming they're still alive, and now have the 20/20 vision of hindsight, I wonder how Mom and Dad DWE feel about the issue of abortion?
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: Assuming they're still alive, and now have the 20/20 vision of hindsight, I wonder how Mom and Dad DWE feel about the issue of abortion?
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free. And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me. And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today. ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
UNLIKE ANY OF YOU HATERS AND TRAITORS OF AMERICA!
-------------------- "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE U.S./CHINA CONNECTION"
posted
It's Hard To Be A Republican by Subway Serenade
(Sung to the tune of 'Proud To Be An American')
When tomorrow all the things are gone, We've worked for all our lives, And the Right has saved the Nation, From homosexuals and their wives,
I'll wish on every star, We'd had Clinton here today. Or perhaps to hear that Howard Scream And make it go away.
And it's hard to be a Republican, Where I thought my lunch was free. And I won't forget the ones who lied, And sold that crap to me.
And I'd give my tax cut if I could, But my job moved to Bombay. 'Cause there ain't no doubt I bought the scam, That screwed the USA.
From the words of Bill O'Reilly, That I heard on my TV, From Bob Novak, and Rush Limbaugh, It all made sense to me.
Anyone who spoke against us, Was playin' a dangerous game. But now my country's become a laughing stock, And the GOP's to blame.
And it's hard to be a Republican, Where I thought my lunch was free. And I won't forget the ones who lied, And sold that crap to me. And I'd take my vote back if I could, Now my grandkids have to pay.
'Cause there ain't no doubt I bought the scam, That screwed the USA.
[ March 07, 2006, 13:11: Message edited by: Gordon Bennett ]
-------------------- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin Posts: 3898 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DWE: I make em PROUD! Also.....
And I’m proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free. And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me. And I’d gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today. ‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.
UNLIKE ANY OF YOU HATERS AND TRAITORS OF AMERICA!
Genes.....
Ya can't pass 'em along if ya ain't got 'em.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I'm playin' the violin, Tony Bennett!! You prove to me time and time again, you're a broken 45... Or are you a 33?....... Or perhaps a 78.... Well anyhow, YOU BORE ME!
-------------------- "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE U.S./CHINA CONNECTION"
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