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Author Topic: Time for another Fishing and Hunting thread.
Dustoff 1
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Couldn't find the thread the glassman started on this topic, but then I can't find my reading glasses or my Car Keys again, as well..Guess I better look in my downstairs office..[ the head ]

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One of my greatest expieriances at Sea, was watching a Killer Whale pack tear into a pack of Sea Lions....

I was fishing alone on my 36 foot Salmon troller, off Heceta Banks, on the Central Oregon Coast when I witnessed the event....

When I first saw the Sea Lions jumping out of the Ocean, into the air, while being pursued by the Orcas, I remember an uncontrollable desire to Cheer! Which I did, with great gusto!

As I closed in on the area, my gear started loading up with Chinook Salmon. What a feeding frenzy the Sea can at times provide!

There was also a Great White mixed up in the killing zone.

I can say one thing about the whole spectical..
I WAS NOT FEELING LIKE THE TOP PREDITOR!!

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pegintex
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Sounds great. Wish I could see something like that.

What do you hunt? Gun or bow?

I'm a cat fisherman first then a bowhunter for whitetail. I love saltwater fishing but live about 5 hours away and it's rough to do.

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REMEMBER - 97% of .OB stocks are scams. ALWAYS sell on spikes!

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bdgee
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Why not catching and finding rather than fishing and hunting?
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Peaser
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Hmm? Well, I once found a big pos when I was walking through my grandfathers cow pasture. LOL

--------------------
Buy Low. Sell High.

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Dustoff 1
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quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Why not catching and finding rather than fishing and hunting?

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As in women? If so, as a married man, all I can do is catch and release!

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HILANDER
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Got my secret spot still in Canada. Full of big dumb overagressive underfished 5 to 15 lb native Rainbows. Made the mistake of fishing it with a 4 weight my first time there. Had to switch over to hardware and fish 'em with lures (neanderthal style...and yes I am a flyfishing snob he he he he) to get the suckers I hooked in. Next year, not taking anything lighter than a 6 weight.

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If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.

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Dustoff 1
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quote:
Originally posted by Peaser01:
Hmm? Well, I once found a big pos when I was walking through my grandfathers cow pasture. LOL

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Somehow I just can't see the humor or satirical value in your post..I'm I missing sumpin here?

Or were you hunting hallucinatory mushrooms and found yourself face down in da chit?

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bdgee
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quote:
Originally posted by Dustoff101:
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Why not catching and finding rather than fishing and hunting?

-------------------------------------------------
As in women? If so, as a married man, all I can do is catch and release!

You keep the things and you either have to clean them or feed them.
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Dustoff 1
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quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:
Originally posted by Dustoff101:
quote:
Originally posted by bdgee:
Why not catching and finding rather than fishing and hunting?

-------------------------------------------------
As in women? If so, as a married man, all I can do is catch and release!

You keep the things and you either have to clean them or feed them.
-----------------------------------------------
Bdgee, or sell them, as in commercial or charter fishing.

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Peaser
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Big patties all around the pasture. I remember having to walk through that stinking pasture(it's used for horses now) every time we wanted to get to the bull-head pond. There were many days that a good boot cleaning was required after fishing there.

--------------------
Buy Low. Sell High.

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Aragorn243
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I never got into fishing much. I've done a little charter boat fishing in the Atlantic, just day trips. Oddest thing I ever saw was a huge ocean sunfish lying on it's side near the surface. Used to catch flounder, sea trout and blue fish.

I enjoy trout fishing in small streams but rarely have the time to go out so I haven't even purchased a license in years. I still have the gear and when I get more time, I may take it up again.

I used to hunt a lot, mostly woods hunting rather than field hunting for birds although I still do that in limited amounts. The past few years, time once again has limited my days out and this past year I only hunted 4 days for whitetails.

I have to start making time I suppose. That can be hard to do sometimes when you are self employed, harder than most people think.

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pegintex
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Where do you hunt Aragorn?

I'm in central Texas

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REMEMBER - 97% of .OB stocks are scams. ALWAYS sell on spikes!

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bdgee
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Central Texas is a mighty big expanse.....
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Aragorn243
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pegintex,

Pennsylvania, Appalacian Mountain region. It's a mix of state game lands, federal and private lands.

Our deer herd is very large but has suffered from over killing of bucks leading to small racks. The Game Commission started a new policy a few years back to prevent young bucks from being killed in large numbers. This is to help bring the doe/buck ratio closer to normal and to increase the numbers of larger bucks. It seems to be working. Antler sizes are getting larger while fewer bucks are being taken.

It's pretty controversial with a lot of hunters. They claim too many does are being shot which is reducing the size of the herd. The herd was too large however and the woods understory was decimated. You walk through the woods and there is no growth at levels where a deer can reach. This forced them to move into the farmer's fields which caused another conflict.

In any case, the program proceeds, the deer herd is getting smaller, hunters are complaining there are no deer but the bucks being harvested are much nicer.

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Kate
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I hunt and fish also, but I don't like to see animals attacking each other! If I shoot a deer, I try to be as careful as possible, that I am going to hit to kill!

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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Aragorn243:
pegintex,

Pennsylvania, Appalacian Mountain region. It's a mix of state game lands, federal and private lands.

Our deer herd is very large but has suffered from over killing of bucks leading to small racks. The Game Commission started a new policy a few years back to prevent young bucks from being killed in large numbers. This is to help bring the doe/buck ratio closer to normal and to increase the numbers of larger bucks. It seems to be working. Antler sizes are getting larger while fewer bucks are being taken.

It's pretty controversial with a lot of hunters. They claim too many does are being shot which is reducing the size of the herd. The herd was too large however and the woods understory was decimated. You walk through the woods and there is no growth at levels where a deer can reach. This forced them to move into the farmer's fields which caused another conflict.

In any case, the program proceeds, the deer herd is getting smaller, hunters are complaining there are no deer but the bucks being harvested are much nicer.

leave the does, kill the spikes...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Aragorn243
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BuyTex,

The does are what controls the population size. We don't have a deer shortage here despite what some hunters are saying. We have a whole lot of hunters that want to walk 200 yards away from their car, sit down all day and see 50 deer to pick and choose from.

My thoughts on the spikes were in line with yours, get them out of the breeding population but the wildlife biologist appeared to be right on this. The yearlings are spikes because their food is not optimal. With reduced population sizes and thus more food, there aren't many spikes around anymore. Kids up to 16 can still shoot spikes, so it's not like they are fully protected.

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T e x
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Don't know your country....what works here is what I posted. Like roses, a spike is a spike is a spike...exceptions? of course...am talking herd, not individuals.

Learned from my uncle, who perfected instruction from my dad...we've proved it on numerous leases. Biologists could learn from my uncle.

let the big bucks breed...eventually you get bigger does, too...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Aragorn243
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BuyTex,

I'm assuming you're from Texas. Totally different in PA. My inlaws used to live in Houston and told me some of what your hunting is like.

Pennsylvania is nearly all open to hunting, no leases. Only thing holding you back is when the private landowner posts his land, which does occur quite a bit. We have huge state game lands that were purchased by hunter dollars and are maintained by hunter dollars. No taxes are used in either the Game or Fish Commissions. With no leases are no fences. Quite a bit of federal land and national forest that's open to hunting as well. The deer are free to roam. Population estimates put the deer herd at about a million and in many areas they've overpopulated themselves so that food is limited and antler development limited as well. Add to that, unrestricted buck hunting and the bucks never were allowed to mature enough to get large racks. It's not that the genes weren't there, the aveage age of harvested bucks was 1 1/2 years old. The big racks don't start until age 3. They've now stopped statewide the harvesting of bucks with less than 3 1" points on at least one side. The western portion of the state requires at least 4 points on one side. Prior to that, a legal buck was anything with at least one three inch antler.

We've had huge deer kills every year but very few make it into Boone and Crocket.

The goal is to get the sexes back into a more appropriate balance and to increase the age of bucks killed. The balance is supposed to prevent overpopulation and the age to increase the quality. It's been in effect for three seasons now. Still to early to tell for sure but it does seem to be working. My daughter shot an 8-point last year which I rough scored at 110 B&C, not huge by any means but pretty darn big for where we hunt. She said there was another almost as large with it. Last year I saw a 6 point with an 18 inch spread and this past season the only bucks I saw had branched antlers. Usually, spikes were the norm.

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T e x
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as I say, don't know your country... a "flag" to me is this: "They've now stopped statewide the harvesting of bucks with less than 3 1" points on at least one side."

From what I know? The *number* and *length" of the points is immaterial--spikes are spikes...

see my point? if they have *number* regardless of length--they're not spikes.

Take the spikes....

Given adequate nutrition, the rest falls into place. . .

also, lol --"holding us back"???

we can manage our own herds--lease system better in that respect

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Aragorn243
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BuyTex,

A spike is a spike yes, but spikes are typically young bucks, too immmature or too limited in food to grow anything else. Their second set of antlers generally are not spikes, thus the reasoning behind prohibiting their shooting.

The program has been in place for 3 years. Prior to the antler restrictions, probably 30% or so of all bucks harvested were spikes. Now, nearly no spikes are harvested, nearly all have either 3 or 4 points per side and the numbers killed have not significantly declined. At the same time, fewer spikes are being seen. As the deer densitys go down and more food is available, the young bucks are growing branched antlers their first year.

Like I mentioned earlier, I did agree with your position before this program went into effect. I felt that the antler restrictions should be the opposite for one or two seasons. Eliminate the spikes from the population while leaving the bigger bucks, then with the spikes "poor" genes removed from the breeding pool, you could then manage the larger bucks. Being spikes however has been show to not be a permanent factor and these "poor" deer are now sporting nice antlers.

I agree your leased system allows for better management. I don't believe I would want to hunt that way, too limiting.

How do you handle the hunting of smaller game such as birds, rabbits and squirrels?

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glassman
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spikes taste better....

3 year old bucks? sausage and chilli [Big Grin]

deer populations are just plain too high on in some areas of MD and PA in particular

aragorn? i bet the biggest problem is that the big bucks are just better at hiding... they are there, but as you said? people are lazy and the big guys take their hareems to the harder to get places...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Aragorn243
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Glassman,

PA's never been known for big bucks even though it's among the top deer states in the country in numbers. It's been a while since I've looked at a Boone and Crocket book but PA has very few entries.

You are right that there are bigger bucks, not B&C so much but big bucks that do hide well and the hunters can't or won't move them.

The gypsy moths went through a dozen years or so ago and really changed a lot of the understory. The top of the mountain where I generally hunt has become a huge thicket that is hard to get through. Deer go in there and don't come out. It used to be that people would sit for a few hours and start walking around. Now they seem to sit all day long.

So where I hunt, the top of the mountain where most of the deer are probably located has a small number of hunters, the bottom of the mountain where most of the deer vacated has a guy sitting on his butt every 100 yards or so. They don't see anything and then complain there are no deer. As for the deer at the top, you can try to sneek up on them, you won't succeed but you can try. We had snow this year and tracks were everywhere. The deer have enough sense to stay just out of sight ahead of you.

The deer kill in my area was down pretty low this year. There were only two in my family that got deer this year and that is unusual. My daughter seemed to be going through a miss everything she shoots at year. She's only ever missed one deer before this season and missed three, two were pretty easy shots. Gun was sighted in, just one of those things.

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sharkone
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During my shark research years, I was spearfishing for hog snappers in Bimini, Bahamas (with a Hawaiian sling)...

Shot a nice five pounder that got stuck in a little rock cave. I tried to pry the fish out and was suddenly yanked back out of the cave by one of my swim fins. Turned around annoyed thinking it was my buddy yanking my fin, and stared into the snout of an 8 foot bull shark. A little freaky sight. I calmly swam away, minus one fin, heart racing and watched the shark pull the hog snapper out of the cave and swim away with my fish, and my spear.

As a starving graduate student, the first thought that went through my mind was
"$#&**, there goes a brand new, $30 spear!"

Sharkone

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No matter how thin you slice it it's still baloney...

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bdgee
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Someone needs to do some actual research into the actual studies of white tail and mule deer antlers.

Although it has always been the "common" perception (not an old wives tale, because very few wives of any age hunt deer) that a "spike" buck is a first of second year male, it is not a fact. Most spike bucks are not the youngest, but the oldest or the puniest.

Deer antler development depends more on nutrition and health than age and as a buck reaches an age where his physical condition has deteriorated, what energies he has left over is used to suplement ailments and deteriorated conditions rather than antlers. Thus (and it is probably one of nature's own weapons to maintain a healthy population....a bit of evolutionary trivia for you creation scientist types), the bucks that have the least ability to pass on healthy genes grow the lesser of antlers, making them less likely to win the contest that determine which animals mate with the does.

Old bucks (or sickly ones) grow the least of antlers and old does remain redish through the winter. No longer can either be expected to manage successfully to produce or raise healthy offspring, if any, and, in normal circumstances, neither wins the eye of the opposite sex in the rut.

The best eating is either a young male (but certainly not during the rut) or young female. That red doe that was so easy to spot on the fall and winter grey colored woods is stringy and tough as nails and so will be 95% of those spikes.

Oh, and if you don't like "gamey tasting meat" then don't shot a deer that has just been scared silly or chased a half mile by a pack of dogs and, as a result, has had an extra dose or two of adrenaline charged into his blood stream...that's the culprit.

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Aragorn243
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bdgee,

Plenty of people have done research into the actual studies of whitetail deer. Gary Alt is the premier researcher into Pennsylvania's whitetail herd.

It is not a wives tale but a fact that nearly all spike bucks in Pennsylvania are either 1/2 year old or 1 1/2 years old. As deer in Pennsylvania rarely live beyond 3 1/2 years old and deer do not age to the point where they once again produce spikes until they are past 9 1/2 years old, it is very unlikely that any spike bucks are old deer, let alone most.

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bdgee
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You NEED to dosome research instead of restating what the "hill people" believe. There are very few areas of the US that any deer lives to a ripe old age of 6 or 7 years, so your notion that life expectancy alters the facts for PA isn't a valid oint. The research, which includes the PA herds, says most spikes are the old and sick, whether or not you like the result.
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Dustoff 1
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Wait till you walk into a 1000lb Rosevelt Bull Elk, with a full rack,,, with only a Fly Rod in yer hand...

Then you will understand what the term " Pucker Factor " really means... !!!!!!!!!

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Aragorn243
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bdgee,

You really want to press this issue?

The research has been done, by many individuals. Whitetail antlers are one of the most studied animal atributes on the North American continent.

As I subscribe to the Pennsyvania Game News which publishes the results of Gary Alt's work with the PA deer herd and as I have been discussing PA's deer, not deer nationally, he is the foremost authority on whitetails and their antlers in the state. I also subscribe to Deer and Deer Hunting magazine which is one of the foremost deer magazines in the nation.

No research I have ever seen here in PA or outside of PA on the national level supports your position that most spike bucks are old or sick. I don't like the result because it is inaccurate and not supported.

Here is a brief comment on deer antler developement from

http://pabucks.com/deerantlers.html#A

Age can also effect a buck’s antlers. Whitetailed deer do not achieve maturity until they are 5 to 8 years of age. Studies have demonstrated the average buck achieves only about 10 percent of his potential antler development by age 1.5 years (when he completes his first set of antlers as an 18-month-old buck).

It has also been able to demonstrate that there is little relationship between the first year antlers and the antler development a buck will have when he reaches the mature age classes of 5 years or older. This means a spike-antlered buck has a good chance of becoming a trophy-quality adult buck. By the time a buck has completed his second set of antlers he still only has achieved only 25-35 percent of his potential antler development.

At 3 years of age (few bucks live longer than this in Pennsylvania because of the amount of hunters that hunt in this state). A buck still only has achieved about 50 percent of his potential antler quality. It is not until 5 years of age that most bucks approach their full antler potential, and often, antlers don’t reach their maximum size until 7 or 8 years of age (for captive deer raised under ideal conditions).

Probably less than 1 out 5,000 bucks would survive to the 6-year-old age class with the hunters that hunt in Pennsylvania. It is no wonder we don’t see the quality of bucks that existed when my grandfather hunted the exact same woods, when hunting pressure was very low compared to today. Two other factors that effect a buck’s antler development are injury and disease.

NOTE: Even under ideal conditions, captive deer produce their maximum sized antlers at age 7-8.

From:

http://www.forestry.state.al.us/publication/TF_publications/tfspring99/deer_antler_development.htm

Producing better antlers goes beyond good habitat management. Proper harvest management is also a necessity. To ensure an abundance of high quality food, herd size must be kept within carrying capacity of the land. This often requires harvest of antlerless deer. Another prerequisite for large antlers is age. Body requirements use most of the nutrients taken in during the first couple of years of a deer's life and antler growth is restricted. Allowing young bucks to make it to the older age classes will greatly enhance their chances of growing a large rack.

NOTE: Body requirements during the first couple of years use most of the nutrients and resrict antler growth.

From:

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/PUBL/wlnotebook/Antlers.htm

Antler growth is closely linked to nutrition. When a young buck reaches 10 months of age, its first set of antlers begins to grow. Yearling bucks usually carry spikes. These are antlers with a single bone having no branching pattern. These first year antlers are small because the young buck’s body is still growing rapidly and its nutrition is directed more toward muscle and skeletal growth than to antler growth. Older bucks may also carry spikes if they come from an area with poor food conditions. Bucks in high quality habitats tend to grow much larger antlers. While genetics has an influence on antler growth and size, nutrition by far has the greatest impact.

Note: Yearling deer generally carry spikes. Older deer MAY carry spikes if coming from areas with poor food.

I could go all day with links to deer antlers.

All my points concerning PA deer are valid. No research says most spikes are the old and sick. On the contrary, it says young deer produce smaller antlers and most are spikes.

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bdgee
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You are full of it and incapable of carrying on a debate, so.....no, I have mande the mistake of wasing time on you before.
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T e x
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Spikes: genetics and nutrition contribute, but a "line" of spike bucks produces smaller bodies and racks. Can spikes ever "fork"? Yes.

So what? racks *and* bodies are still smaller . . . while you're waiting on them to fork? you could've been helping the herd.

A well-known Texas study (Parks & Wildlife [ http://wildlife.tamu.edu/publications/A043.PDF#search='deer%20Texas%20spike%20studies' ] ) sums it up pretty well:

quote:
If maximum quality is a goal in one's deer management program, then every effort should be made to protect the larger antlered yearlings
and remove the small antlered ones.

lol, it's not rocket science...

In the country between here and "trophy country" on the border, they've mismanaged their herds such that deer are dog-sized. Lotttssss of 'em, though. Besides spikes, they need to take the small does, too. Some areas have improved over the past 15 years or so...

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Aragorn243
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bdgee,

Me full of it and incapable of carrying on a debate???

One of us is posting "wives tails" and one has presented three informational links. One of us refuses to acknowledge these informational links and instead of posting some supporting evidence of their own to counter these links, is "wasting time".

I think it is quite apparent which of us is "full of it" and which is "incapable of carrying on a debate".

A hint: It's not me.

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Aragorn243
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BuyTex,

I agree with you. Like I said earlier, I would have prefered they have a few seasons of nothing but spikes being legal. I don't believe it would have harmed the buck population as quite a few of the kill were spikes anyway.

Our game commission is "suggesting" that we avoid shooting button bucks. They feel that too many of them are being killed as well. There is no law against it, they are considered antlerless but suggest that if you see them, not to shoot. Not extremely realistic in most shooting situations though.

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bdgee
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quote:
Originally posted by Aragorn243:
bdgee,

Me full of it and incapable of carrying on a debate???

One of us is posting "wives tails" and one has presented three informational links. One of us refuses to acknowledge these informational links and instead of posting some supporting evidence of their own to counter these links, is "wasting time".

I think it is quite apparent which of us is "full of it" and which is "incapable of carrying on a debate".

A hint: It's not me.

Yes, it is you. You are just too lame brained to have any hope of understanding it.

You have posted NO informational links, just more anti-scientific claims. Trying to get that across to you is about like trying to explain sex to a 9 year old virgin. They just haven't got the equipment to comprehend the subject even exists, let alone its manifastationsand techniques..

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Aragorn243
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bdgee,

"You have posted NO informational links, just more anti-scientific claims."

You're lying again. Time to stop doing that. I posted three, I could post dozens very easily.

By the way, what college did you get your science degree from, the one that helps you understand scientific principles, genetics, the environment and biology? Do you have a science degree?

You do describe yourself quite well when attacking others though, good job.

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