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""Israel's defense minister hinted Saturday that the Jewish state is preparing for military action to stop Iran's nuclear program, but said international diplomacy must be the first course of action.""
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Israel is like a cibic zirconian, its not the real thing , created by outside world powers, it is not the Israel of the Bible. The people who live within it's modern boundries just had forein powers draw lines around them and renamed the area. If modern Israel is the chosen land then alot of palestinians are gods people. Ha Ha Ha
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Israel isn't the only country in that region that had it's borders drawn by the west. Historically, Kuwait was a part of Iraq. You can see the western influence in some of the people over there. I can't tell you how many Iraqi men and women I saw who had naturally red or blonde hair.
-------------------- If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.
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Actually Israel is the real thing. Some boundarys were drawn by outside world powers but the people of Israel consequently fought several wars to gain independance from those foreign powers and conquer the territory for themselves. An occurance which has gone on throughout history.
As for it not being the Israel of the Bible, what happened to the Israel of the Bible? Some other peoples/nations/powers (outside powers) moved in, displaced the people, redrew the borders and called it something else. It is no different now than what was done then.
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no different? that would be like giving the Native Americans the Louisiana Purchase back and saying it's no different now than it was when Napoleon sold it to US...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Yes, no different. But it would not be like giving the Native Americans the Louisiana Purchase back. No one gave the Jews Israel. They immigrated there, got into conflict which required partitions and through a nominal war of independance forced the British control out. Then through several more wars, which in most instances they did not start, took control of the land away from the Palestinians.
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yes, most of todays Hebrews living in Israel immigrated there... but without US? i doubt they would still be there...
1845: The number of Jews in Palestine is about 12,000. ? Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000
67% non-Jewish ( 1,237,000 )
33% Jewish ( 608,000 ??
Britain didn't want them to start their own state but they didn't really have a choice.... the Brits trained the Jews to help put down the Arab uprisings... and then the Jews told the Brits to clear out too... just like Iraq will tell US to clear out...
so kihls stement that Israel is like a cibic zirconian, its not the real thing , created by outside world powers, it is not the Israel of the Bible. The people who live within it's modern boundries just had forein powers draw lines around them and renamed the area. If modern Israel is the chosen land then alot of palestinians are gods people. Ha Ha Ha
is true...
there would be no Israel today with US...
BTW? i'm not anti-Israel, but i do question the sanity of people who support Israel in hope that the Jews will convert to Christianity in order to fulfill a prophecy...they are total whack jobs
but i'm sure the Israelis enjoy the extra support as they laugh at the whackos behind their backs....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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the similarity to the Native American issue??
there are alot, ACTUALLY... had the French continued to exert more military influence in the Americas rather than having Napoleon try to take over Europe? the Native Americans would have continued to enjoy significant military support from them... and that would have made things very different... the French colonialised in a very differnt way than the Brits did...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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1922:Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85,000, compared to the 670,000 Palestinians.
1930s: Large influx of Jews, frightened by persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, hundreds of kibbutzes founded. 1931: 175,000 Jews and 860,000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).
1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. AT this time 450,000 Jews and 1,060,000 Arabs live in Palestine (30%)
had it not been a British colony? the immigration would never have even happened....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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You say you aren't anti Israel. I don't understand your arguement then. What is your point?
The original statement of kilhs is incorrect, there is nothing in your examples to show otherwise. Your example of the Native American's is based sole upon what ifs. The Israeli situation is not a what if, it is real.
You say they would not be there if it weren't for US, I take it that means the US. We had very little involvement with Israel in its early days and they handled themselves quite well against their enemies. This too is speculation on your part. Had we not supplied them with weapons, they would have gotten them from someone else. They are a very resourcefull nation.
I too "question the sanity of people who support Israel in hope that the Jews will convert to Christianity in order to fulfill a prophecy". But I find myself wondering why you even brought that up. It has no bearing on the discussion of Israel being a "cubic zirconian".
Israel is no different than countless other nations throughout history that have conquered another land. To make it something different is disingenous. Poland for example was moved roughly 100 miles to the west following WWII. East Prussia was lost to Russia during the same war. Japan lost a large swath of territory to the north to the Soviet Union after WWII. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was totally broken up after WWI, as was the Ottoman Empire which origianlly controled the current Israel and much of the Middle East. These are all relatively recent and I'm sure there are many other nations in Asia and Africa which have had similar changes in the past 100 years. Many won their independance from European control in that time. Pakistan, India and Burma all have had border disputes, all were originally one country and split along religious lines and have been fighting in one form or another since.
bdgee,
Glassman isn't trying to reason with you, not sure what point you're trying to make either.
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I too "question the sanity of people who support Israel in hope that the Jews will convert to Christianity in order to fulfill a prophecy". But I find myself wondering why you even brought that up. It has no bearing on the discussion of Israel being a "cubic zirconian".
glassman says: kihl brought it up, not me... can you keep track of several different peoples statements in a conversation at one time Strider? here is the direct quote: it is not the Israel of the Bible.
if you DIDN'T realise many US christian groups support Israel and Israeli immigration because they believe that they "helping God" or working on fulfilling the prophecies to bring the "Second Coming", then consider yourself notified...
they ARE....
and? Bush plays on that too...
i happen to have several very close Jewish friends ..
ACTUALLY? you are the one who seemed to be saying somebody else was wrong... and your argument is pointless in the context of what kihls said... Israel is a "manufactured" country with OUR and British help, and if we pulled our support tomorrow? they might make it on their own NOW, but it is unlikely they would have made it prior to the first Gulf War...
if i wanted people to think i was good at associative thinking? i would conceal the fact that i don't see the parallels between the Moslems pushing the Jews out of Israel in the middle of the last millenia and the Anglos pushing the Native Americans out of their homeland in the last millenium either..the main difference is there aren't very many Native Americans in foreign lands to come back and take the land back... land that God gave them a long time ago... just like the Israelis... sheesh... that's not to hard to comprehend is it?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans $74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid) $9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments $1,650,000,000
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli $14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel
Grand Total $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers $134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli $23,240
Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning.
this isn't money wastd IMO, but? it's the main reason they still exist....
wrmea seems to be fairly reputable.... The Washington Report is published by the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, DC by retired U.S. foreign service officers to provide the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Wouldn't suprise me in the least if that was the next country the U.S. military will be in for four years. Without a draft I don't see where the manpower is going to come from
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quote:Originally posted by bond006: Wouldn't suprise me in the least if that was the next country the U.S. military will be in for four years. Without a draft I don't see where the manpower is going to come from
The National Guard. I just found out when I am going back, and it is a lot sooner than I was expecting.
-------------------- If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.
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"glassman says: kihl brought it up, not me... can you keep track of several different peoples statements in a conversation at one time Strider? here is the direct quote: it is not the Israel of the Bible."
Yes I can keep track of different peoples statements in a conversation. kihl's didn't say anything close to "question the sanity of people who support Israel in hope that the Jews will convert to Christianity in order to fulfill a prophecy".
Of course I realize that many Christians believe that Israel is part of prophecy, although I never really heard there is a hope they will convert to Christianity to fullfill a prophecy. The prophecy I'm familier with involves them retaking their land and rebuilding the Temple of Solomon.
In any case some peoples belief in prophecy has nothing to do with Israel going to war and taking the land from the Palestinians being the same as any other nation or group of people throughout history doing the same.
If Israel is a "manufactured" country, so is every other country in the world. It is still no different. Man through force of arms has determined the boundarys of nearly every nation in the world.
You think Israel wouldn't have made it without our help prior to the Gulf War? That is only speculation on your part. Israel is a nuclear power with one of the most advanced militarys on the face of the earth. They fought major wars in 1967 and 1973 and soundly defeated their enemies while being outnumbered roughly 10 to 1 in all categories.
If I wanted people to think I was good at associative thinking, I would use examples that are relevant, not examples that never occured and are not ever likely to occur and then continue trying to qualify them by saying "the main difference is there aren't very many Native Americans in foreign lands to come back and take the land back"
What happened in Israel is real. What happened in the Ottoman empire is real. What happened in Europe is real. The native Americans never left, they were defeated, they never regained their territory. Not relevant. That is not difficult to comprehend at all.
As for aid to Israel. I don't dispute we provide aid to Israel. We provide aid and military support to many nations around the globe including some "enemies" of Israel.
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If Israel is a "manufactured" country, so is every other country in the world. It is still no different. Man through force of arms has determined the boundarys of nearly every nation in the world.
once again? i find this statement to be argumentative for no reason....
Israel is a very unique circumstance in the history of the world...
you missed the emphasis on the religious portion of kilhs statyement... i know you won't admit it...
Israel itself has recently had to take some steps to halt the Christian groups from "assisting" more immigrants...
Britain encouraged Jewish immigration to Israel early on last century in an attempt to "balance" the Arab problems they were having... then they realised they were losing the balance of power to the Jews and tried to stop them...it was too late and Hitler in his own sick way helped, since many were willing to give up everything just to save their lives...
show me another nation built this way?
so? between US and Britain? Israel is a very unique "manufactured state".. that doesn't negate their right to exist, but for you to say they are mundane? is just argumentative... LOL
where do you think they got their nukes?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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I find your entire series of posts arguementative without reason.
I missed nothing of kihls statement, I can read it at leasure on this very page. What you claim to see in it simply is not there and what you claim to see in it has no bearing on whether Israel has the right to the land or not. They took it and held it, the same as any other nation throughout history.
I don't see Israel as being unique at all. People have been moved, pushed, persuaded to go from one region to the next all over the world. In that regard, your Native Americans would be a good example. What they do once they get their is another matter. A good example of that is the United States. Our founders were persuaded to come here by England and other nations. They were in general not wanted in their own lands. They came here, limited by space originally, grew, fought and won independance. By your reasoning, the United States is also a manufactured nation. Israel is NOT unique and it is far from unusual.
Using religion as a reason, in addition to the United States, Pakistan and Burma were both partitioned due to religion from India.
Where do I think they got their nukes? From their own scientists. Are you implying we gave them to them? I'd like to see the proof of that. I can't say I've even heard that suggested by anyone outside the Arab world before. There are a lot of nations which had nuclear ambitions and were persuaded not to develop them, South Africa being one example. They are not particularly difficult for a modern developed nation to create and Israel qualifies as a modern developed nation. Israel has the knowhow to manufacture their own aircraft, to improve the aircraft we gave them, create their own missle systems, etc.
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U.S. to Sell (Give) Precision-Guided Bombs to Israel David Wood – Newhouse News Service Sept. 23, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Amid growing concern that Israel might launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran's budding nuclear program, the United States is moving ahead with the transfer to Israel of 5,000 heavy, precision-guided bombs, including 500 "earth-penetrating" 2,000-pound bombs designed for use against underground facilities.
The $319 million arms transfer, proposed by the Bush administration June 1, went ahead after Congress took no action during its 30-day review period, Jose Ibarra, a spokesman for the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, said Wednesday. The deal is being financed from this year's $2.16 billion military assistance grant to Israel.
The transfer also includes 2,500 2,000-pound Mark-84 bombs, 500 1,000-pound Mark-83 bombs, 1,500 500-pound Mark-82 bombs and live fuses. All the bombs are being fitted with the Joint Direct Air Munitions (JDAM) kit which uses inertial guidance and beacons from U.S. military Global Positioning Satellites for deadly accuracy. http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2289
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Can't you just see the whole thing building up again going to the UN wepons of mass destruction and ivestagation teams ect,ect. Then all of a sudden out of a near by phone both its chicken hawk da da he will save us all god speed the invasion but this time I do it with 50,000 troops says chicken hawk. If they are not careful I will send Brownie Boy in my secreate wepon after all did he not destroy New Orleans,almost single handed.
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If Israel attacks Iran in responce to Irans nuclear program world war three will break out. I also think Bush and CO. would like it to hapen.
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Very possible kilhs did you see the news the last two days? I feel that they are laying the political groundwork for a draft to get the manpower to do it Rummy says no but he also thought humvee's did not need body armor in a combat zone. And he thinks nothing wrong with fighting a minor war with 40% National Guard and reservist troops some being called back twice from what I hear. I could see if this were WWII and it was every able bodied man to his post but it is not. And the feeling must be now how much can you ask of a family man when there is lots of young men who should be doing there part. Just lying around and eating hamburgers and getting fat.
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quote:Originally posted by bond006: Very possible kilhs did you see the news the last two days? I feel that they are laying the political groundwork for a draft to get the manpower to do it Rummy says no but he also thought humvee's did not need body armor in a combat zone. And he thinks nothing wrong with fighting a minor war with 40% National Guard and reservist troops some being called back twice from what I hear. I could see if this were WWII and it was every able bodied man to his post but it is not. And the feeling must be now how much can you ask of a family man when there is lots of young men who should be doing there part. Just lying around and eating hamburgers and getting fat.
"And the feeling must be now how much can you ask of a family man when there is lots of young men who should be doing their part. Just lying around and eating hamburgers and getting fat" and posting war whoops they get from th Party on internet forums and acting macho and have never worn a uniform or so much as learned to aim a gun. But, hell, what's wrong with being a draft dodger? Rummy did it and dubya and Cheney and - - -
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I won't argue that, they always knew that some day they would be role models people with a goal in life you have to hand it to them.
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I don't want to see more of our youth put in Harms Way for another worthless cause. There are other ways to achieve these goals, whatever they are, without all the casualties. They know where they can put their draft, but the way its heading it will probably be up ours.
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halting an Iran with Nukes is NOT a worthless cause....
unfortunately? they have nearly won in Iraq, and now they are proceeding with uranium enrichmnet so there is little choice...
Bush and company are in a bad way with Iraq...
the neo-cons were tricked ( their own claim ) by Cahalabi into thinking the Iraqi seculars would welcome US with open arms and then would prevail politically...instead? the Shia Muslims are politically in control of Iran and Iraq both now... if we allow Iran to continue on their present course? the Shias will be a world power to contend with very soon... and quite frankly? they make the biggest ultra-ultra-conservatives in America look like a Kennedy
this is gonna hurt in US in high oil prices too...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Some of us predicted exactly what would come to pass as a result of the invasion.
Now let us look at the eventual end....it's already been predicted by Ben laden. He and his kind don't have to win or even attempt to win. They win by causing the US to outspend its resources, just like they did to the USSR. We are quite well on the way to the point of no return already.
All that is required to cause the Republicans to blow another 100 billion up a rat's a$$ is to hint that the US is not winning in Iraq or that there was never a justifiable reason to attack a Muslem nation that wasn't Afganistan (each of which is true, of course).
Immediately, dumba$$ dubya schedules a speach and announces "Come on, you dirty Ay-rabbs anti Christians, just you try and knock this chip off my shoulder and I'll show you....BRING IT ON!"
The Republican House and Senate, whipped on by the brave and resolute deserter (and the fear of it being proved outright that they knew the lies about WMDs were exactly that), passes emergency legislation, allowing no debate, to provide unlimited funding to back their hero (with numerous special provisions outlawing standard legally reqired bidding procedures).
Three months later, sitting with his inner circle, after dinner, Ben Laden giggles and ask, "Is it time to tweak the Great Satan's tail again" and the wheels turn and the process begins again.
We are loosing that contest already. It isn't winable by us.
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I am not as concerned about the oil prices as I am the troops. We are always the ones leading into these countries with our youth. What next Korea again? If the cause is right we(US. people) will volunteer, to much BS. to know the truth. The reason they cannot get enough volunteers for the services is that people are not believing our president any longer. Doing your duty for your country for wars that make no sense,they start to lose there appeal. What a shame all the lives that are affected from these war casualties. President Bush at this point seems to have let the power get to him. I did not feel this way when he got into office. If they start a draft, I will be one of those people protesting, which I have never done before. Unfortunately this president has lost the support of many people, we do not know what is the truth.
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Look the time to do something about nuc's was after WWII when we saw what a terrible wepon that was we should have got with the world and buried it. To think that anybody could have kept that to themselves is pure crazy now what is happening is everybodies worst fear every to bit nit wit can have one. God help us now but I think we have went to the point of no return. We don't think much different than somebody three thousand years ago with a sword now we can destroy the world.
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Iwish I am against this war. The only thing that keeps it going is the fact that it is all being fought with volunteers people will stand behind most anything as long as they don't have to pay the price. If they have to and there was no getting out of there service this war would be over in sixty days. There is a lot of closet anti war people who play the part of something else
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I wish and hope your right, but if you go back in history 40+ years ago, they had a draft and many protests, but the war went on. I would bet if they start a draft that we will have many more years of wars and casualties. I do not think that the majority of people are standing behind the wars, I think they are standing behind the troops, which is good.
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