posted
As Walker said, "Scholars' efforts to eliminate paganism from the Gospels in order to find a historical Jesus have proved as hopeless as searching for a core in an onion." The "gospel" story of Jesus is not a factual portrayal of a historical "master" who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. It is a myth built upon other myths and godmen, who in turn were personifications of the ubiquitous sungod mythos.
"The Christ of the gospels is in no sense an historical personage or a supreme model of humanity, a hero who strove, and suffered, and failed to save the world by his death. It is impossible to establish the existence of an historical character even as an impostor. For such an one the two witnesses, astronomical mythology and gnosticism, completely prove an alibi. The Christ is a popular lay-figure that never lived, and a lay-figure of Pagan origin; a lay-figure that was once the Ram and afterwards the Fish; a lay-figure that in human form was the portrait and image of a dozen different gods."
Stay Free! tracks everyone's favorite deity as he leapfrogs across America
1978 Mario Rubio is rolling a burrito when she notices skillet burns on the tortilla resembling the mournful face of Jesus Christ. Shortly thereafter, 8,000 curious pilgrims trek to the Rubios' small stucco house in rural New Mexico to view the sacred icon. Mrs. Rubio leaves her house unlocked so that visitors may freely enter and examine the tortilla. (Newsweek, Aug. 14, 1978)
1980 Oklahoma evangelist Oral Roberts spots a 900 foot Jesus straddling a hospital complex he is building next to his university. Roberts, interpreting the divine image as a plea for financial assistance, appeals to his followers and nets millions of dollars in donations. (Los Angeles Times, Oct. 8, 1992)
1981 Christ appears, crucified, on a garage door in California and draws 8,000 visitors in one weekend. The image is later found to be caused by reflections from two street lights that had merged with shadows of a bush and a real-estate sign. (USA Today, April 12, 1989)
1986 In Fostoria, Ohio, Jesus is found on the side of a soybean oil tank. A month after the image is reported, vandals attack the tank with paint balloons. (USA Today, April 12, 1989)
1987 Jesus appears on the chimney of a suburban bowling alley. The four- foot high image is formed from rusting metal. Local truckers are split on whether the rust pattern on the chimney means anything other than it's time to buy a new chimney. Some say it looks like Popeye; others say it is Christ. A bowler at Town and Country Bowl had spotted the figure and immediately notified a Chicago television station. Town and Country owner Irwin Korzen says he and his employees noticed it months earlier but didn't think it was a big deal. (Chicago Tribune, June 24, 1987)
1988 In Lubbock, Texas, members of a small Roman Catholic Church see visions of Mary and Jesus in the clouds during an outdoor Mass. The diocesan report that follows takes a cautious stand and draws no conclusions. (USA Today, April 12, 1989)
1989 Thousands of believers flock to a home in northeast Harris County to view a linoleum table top that mysteriously reflects the images of Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Sources aren't quite sure. (Houston Chronicle, April 12, 1992)
1991 Jesus makes national news as the centerpiece of a Pizza Hut billboard in Atlanta. Joyce Simpson spotted the face of Christ in the advertisement immediately after praying for a divine sign. She couldn't decide whether to stay in the church choir or quit and sing professionally. The shadowy image of Jesus' face in strands of spaghetti hanging from a fork meant she should stay with the choir. John Moody, a marketing director for Pizza Hut, said the picture, one of 35 put up in the area, is a standard food photograph that the Wichita headquarters provides franchises. Moody said several people, however, called his office to say they see other notably less religious images in the picture: deceased rock star Jim Morrison, a puppet and Willie Nelson. (Chicago Tribune, May 23, 1991)
1992 Jesus is discovered, on a cross, in the gnarled bark of a sycamore tree in New Haven, CT. (The Hartford Courant, Sept. 19, 1992)
1993 Approximately 3,000 people line up outside an apartment building in upper Manhattan to witness apparitions of Jesus Christ on the frosted-glass window of a 5th floor bathroom. The Rev. Jose Aquilar, a Catholic priest from St. Judes Church several blocks away, claims the source of the apparition is a dirty double-paned window and a little moisture. Upon Aquilar's suggestion, police remove the window and have it taken to a hardware store and scrubbed with Brillo - an act some residents called sacrilegious. (Newsday, Aug. 7, 1993)
posted
Back when I was a boy, late in the night, we'd listen to radio station XERF, broadcasting from Mexico, "...mailing address, Del Rio, Texas".
Supposedly, they were having music shows, but we could get at most about 3 - 4 minutes per hour of music. That's the reason we listened, not for the music, but to measure the actual time not devoted to weird ads. Well, ya see, we made bets all day at school about it and the nearest to the actual time allowed for music that night on XERF won the pot.
They sold "GEN-U-wine engraved pictures of the father of out country, George Washington, for just one five dollar bill" and "crazy water crystals that will cure your lumbago or your indigestion for just two dollars".
One ad amongst those splendidly described and hawked on XERF was for a "Gen-U-wine autographed picture of the beloved Jesus Christ" for just $8". After arguing what it must be for months and months, a group of us sent the $8. In return, after a couple of weeks, we recieved a real live Kodac made black and white glossy of a weather worn old Mexican named Jesus H. Christe with his scrawl in blue ink on the back.
So you see, I know! And somewhere in a long ago packed up collection of boyhood tresures, I still have the proof of Jesus existance.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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yes people do carry the Son thing too far at times, but all in all? there is no point in attacking a fiath that has seen and contributed to bringing us humans out of the stone age....
i have no problem with critisizing indivuduals actions, especially when they are bad and use Christ as a tool, but attacking the belief system is just wrong IMO.... Christ's teachings are solid, and if they were actually adhered to by all of the people that claim Him? we'd be living in a much better world... i see no point in questioning whether he existed or not....
other than to cause trouble
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
thanx timber, i will track that one down....
i always liked the stars and bars cuz i thought it did represent rebeliousness in the sense of personal/individual freedom...
i have been willing to set the confederate flag aside out of respect for other peoples wishes, but not my intense desire for personal freedom...esp EXPRESSION of ideas
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: 4art? what's your point?
yes people do carry the Son thing too far at times, but all in all? there is no point in attacking a fiath that has seen and contributed to bringing us humans out of the stone age....
i have no problem with critisizing indivuduals actions, especially when they are bad and use Christ as a tool, but attacking the belief system is just wrong IMO.... Christ's teachings are solid, and if they were actually adhered to by all of the people that claim Him? we'd be living in a much better world... i see no point in questioning whether he existed or not....
other than to cause trouble
Except their constant push to chrstianize the country.
My mom is a christian and I was reading a magazine called "world" I think? And one of the articles was titled "Will America ever become a Christian country again?" (Something like that)
Now I'm not sure about you, but I believe wholeheartedly that the Gov't should be agnostic and any religion that claims to want to convert the country and it's politics is scary as sh!t.
Edit: Also, though religion has helped bring society out of the 'dark ages' by bringing rules and "punishments" for breaking those rules, religions have also held back societies, specifically in the scientific field where findings contradicted the bible.
Gallileo was sentenced to house arrest for his ideas remember.
Posts: 164 | From: Sacramento, Cali | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Art, I don't know where that guy got his facts, but history has documented Jesus from so many different sources, I have no doubt at all, that he existed! Here are just a few historical facts, that weren't written in the Bible! 1. Caius Plinius Secundus, in AD 62, served as council during the reign of emperor Trajan and was later appointed governor of the Roman provinces of Pontus and Bithynia(Turkey) in the period A.D. 101-110. He wrote to the emperor, to request specific instructions about the Interrogation of the Christians whom he was persecuting. These Christian believers would not worship Emperor Trajan, nor would they curse their leader, Jesus Christ, even under extreme torture. Pliny wrote that the Christians loved the truth at any cost, and were willing to die as martyrs rather than deny their faith in Jesus as the Son of God. Most of these writings, come from the Archeological Writings of the Sanhedrim and Talmuds of the Jews. These historical documents, are in the Vatican in Rome. Some others, are in Paris. The ancient scripts, were published by different sects, nations and individuals, and all coming from the origional Hebrew, Greek, and Latin manuscripts. These include Greek, Samaritan, Spanish, German, Italian,Latin, Syriac,Coptic, and many others. There were some found in Britian, Paris, and Rome. We also have some in America, at Philadelphia, in the libraries of the Quakers and in the library of the Antiquarian society. Here are just a few more, of the people in ancient times, that are in our history books, that wrote letters concerning the Bible, or Jesus! 2. Victor Constantine Maximus Augustus: There is a letter in existence, that he wrote, asking to have fifty copies of the scriptures written and bound.3. Letter of Melker, priest of the synagogue at Bethlehem, describes Jonathans interview with the shepherds, the night Jesus was born! 4. Sanhedrin Text 43a. Babyolonian Talmud-Baraitha, refers to the Crucifixion of Jesus. In it, the death of Christ coincides with the Passover feast, which is also in the scriptures. Another manuscript, found in Italy, mentions the detail that he was hanged on the eve of the sabbath. This statement agrees with the scripture, Mark 15:42-43 These writings, can be found in a book called, The Archko Volume, or the archeological writings of the Sanhedrim & Talmuds of the Jews. Another book, that is full of factual information, on the history of Jesus Christ, is found in the book called, The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel! This man was an athiest most of his life, until he started investigating into the history of Christ! His book has a lot of archeological and factual evidence, on the existance of Jesus! As far as the Bible is concerned, there has never been another book, so popular! Why? Because people know that God exists, and if God exists, His Word is true, so therefore, Jesus exists!
Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Though I am close to agreeing with you that, "...I believe wholeheartedly that the Gov't should be agnostic...". Yet, after a moment's consideration, I wonder exactly what "agnostic" denotes, generally. If it is to mean "undecided about the existance of God", then maybe that isn't sufficient to satisfy me.
I want government to openly and completely disavow any religious belief and also to openly and completely disavow any belief that any actual religion is false. Further, when any question of or hint of the consideration of any act, responsibility, or power of government is in any way tied or influenced either to religion in general, any particluar religion, or and disbelief in either of those, then the government must discontinue participation, openly and decisively.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Well undecided is just that, not decided, not leaning towards one belief structure over another, therefore cannot show favoratism.
Favoratism towards a religion alienates the rest and causes tension which leads to wars.
But G.W. up on the stand saying God told me to do this, god told me to do that.... I mean... come on...
Posts: 164 | From: Sacramento, Cali | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Well, I am decided. I don't give a hoot what your religion is or isn't. I want my right to continue that and assurance that your religion and your way of practicing it does not impose on me even in some tiny way, such as having to see or hear the beliefs of your religion on public property or in public processes. And that is the case even if your religion is mine!
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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the govt has no business in the religion game, and all these peole that claim we need to become Christian again are not reading the constitution... the same people they want to claim were so religious deliberately separated the church from the state.
as far as proof goes Kate? that's all still anecdotal
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of all this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites, to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
- Thomas Jefferson
“Christian creeds, doctrines, formulas and dogmas, the clergies own fatal inventions, will someday be the ruin of the Christian church and will make of Christendom a slaughterhouse, dividing it into castes, with intolerable hatred, one for the other.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 3243 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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You have just shown you have a complete lack of understanding of the Constitution of the United States.
Bill of Rights Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
We have the freedom of religion in this country, not the freedom from religion.
It seems with your statements of:
"I want government to openly and completely disavow any religious belief and also to openly and completely disavow any belief that any actual religion is false. Further, when any question of or hint of the consideration of any act, responsibility, or power of government is in any way tied or influenced either to religion in general, any particluar religion, or and disbelief in either of those, then the government must discontinue participation, openly and decisively."
and:
"I want my right to continue that and assurance that your religion and your way of practicing it does not impose on me even in some tiny way, such as having to see or hear the beliefs of your religion on public property or in public processes"
To have what you want would require the passage of laws prohibiting the free practice of religion. You have the right to ignore them, you don't have the right to tell them how they are to practice their religion.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Aragorn, The founding fathers would disagree. Separation of Church and State was a crucial part of their collective mindset.
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson
"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." - Thomas Jefferson
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams
(John Adams also signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.)
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." - Thomas Paine
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)." - Thomas Paine
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." - Thomas Paine
"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance." - Thomas Paine
"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty." - Thomas Paine
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. - James Madison
NOTE: Benjamin Franklin was the delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention. He has frequently been used as a source for positive "God" talk. It is often noted that Franklin made a motion at the Constitutional convention that they should bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations.
What is rarely noted is that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers.
Posts: 3243 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
If Aragorn243 thinks that protecting religious freedom actually means promoting, supporting and encouraging specific religions using public funds and properties, (as the Bush administration so blatantly does), he has just shown us that he has a complete lack of understanding of the Constitution of the United States.
Posts: 3243 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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There is no seperation of church and state. The Constitution is very clear on that. It is convenient to quote a few of the framers of the Constitution when it suits your purpose but the FACT remains that the Consitution says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Therefore, Congress cannot pass any law establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.
If you try to seperate man from his religion in ANY way as a governmental agency, you are in direct violation of Amendment I of the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the United States.
The founding fathers include more than Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin. While these three may not have felt religion to be important or necessary, many of the others did.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Children being forced to affirm God in public schools, using public funds to post 'Ten Commandments' plaques in public buildings and to fund faith-based charities are just a few examples of the Religious Right's blatant disregard for the true intent of the Constitution.
U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton apparently agrees...
How many of the examples you listed were because of laws passed by Congress?
Remember, the only body that can create law is Congress.
The example you give is not the Supreme Court but U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton. This issue has already gone before the Supreme Court and been turned back. They may have simply sidestepped the issue but they did not as you claim "agree"
Here are a few quotes by other founding fathers:
Oliver Ellsworth, third Chief Justice of the Supreme Court -- "The primary objects of government are peace, order, and prosperity of society. To the promotion of these objects, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support, and among these, religious institutions are eminently useful and important."
Henry Laurens -- "I had the honor of being one who framed the Constitution. In order effectually to accomplish these great constitutional ends, it is especially the duty of those who bear rule to promote and encourage respect for God and virtue."
President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God and that there is no force of law in public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."
Thomas Jefferson -- "No power to proscribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the Federal Government. It must, then, rest with the States."
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments -- "The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down."
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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But the Thomas Jefferson's writings you quote are not part of the Constitution are they?
He had a hand writting it, but he didn't ratify it all by himself.
The Bill of Rights are there for a reason, the Constitution would not have been ratified without them.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Yes, I want the government to "make NO law respecting an establishment of a religion"!
It is clearly a law respecting the establishment of christianity for the government to dictate to the fostering of that religion by promoting Christianity.
I understand, you wish to eliminate that requirement of the government.
Just as it is not your right to yell "fire" in a theater, because it would over-ride my constitutional rights, your insistance that you be allowed to force me to observe and accept the "naturalness" of your religion envades my constitutional rights.
Remember, that in spite of your condecnding arrogance, your Constitutional rights stop at that point that they infringe on mine! You need to confine you parctice of you beliefs in a way that I don't become forced to take part in them.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If our Government is permitted to pay for a Christian symbol, like the "Ten Commandments" to be erected in the lobby of a public courthouse, it must also pay for and permit any and all other Religious symbols to be similarly placed, (such as a gigantic gold Statue of Buddha, for example). Otherwise it will be seen as discriminatory.
Therefore, it makes sense to allow NO religious symbols of any kind in public buildings.
The same goes for public funding of "Faith-Based" organizations. Unless you support ALL equally, (which this administration clearly doesn't), it will be perceived (quite rightly) as favoritism.
Posts: 3243 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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There are no laws in the United States promoting Christianity. If you think there is one, or more than one, please list them.
Yelling fire in a theater has nothing to do with your constitutional rights. It is a matter of criminal law.
I'm not insisiting that you observe or accept the naturalness of my religion. You have no Constitutional right to be free from religion.
You are correct that Constitional rights stop when they infringe on others. That is the pure beauty of the Constitution. Your Constitutional rights allow you free practice, not to be free from. If they were "free from" no one would be able to practice their religion.
So in other words, you have the right to put a sign on your porch telling the Mormons to stay away. You have the right to tell them to go away if you did not place a sign on your porch and they knock on your door. You do not have the right to tell them they cannot try to spread their religion. They have free practice, you do not have freedom from.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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