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This is a real solution! Problem is, the oil lobby will not go quietly.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: note the date here... it is estimated that there is 80 times as much energy trapped in this form as there is oil.... we just need to come up with a smart way to harvest it
Methane gas may be able to satisfy world energy demands for decades to come. It may also alter the world's climate as a greenhouse gas. As an alternative to gas, oil, and coal deposits, deep-sea methane could provide a more sustainable source of energy for agricultural systems. This hidden gas may be a possible alternative if the world's supply of other fuels runs dry. However as a greenhouse gas, it may contribute to global warming and thus have an adverse affect on sustainable agriculture. Methane has been discovered under the ocean floor, trapped under high pressure in cage-like ice crystals called gas hydrates. The methane trapped in one cubic meter of hydrate would expand to 170 cubic meters under normal atmospheric conditions. Burning methane produces only one quarter as much carbon dioxide as burning coal, making it an attractive energy source. Unfortunately, unburned methane is about ten times more active as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide so complete combustion is essential.
want more references??? there are thousands of scientist already at work here.....
and i know a certain USN retired nuke sub captian that thinks there is a lot of money to be made here...
quote:Originally posted by glassman: wow, that's an intelligent response...
why don't you find a fact in there that's incorrect?
So glassman, do you believe Utopia will be acheived if we just wake up from the spell cast by the evil republicans?
i am a republican:
i am also a very INTENSIVE energy consumer... see my profile.....
i don't think the dems have the answers either,
BUT:
the answers to our problems are "out there" and that article covers the facts pretty well IMO...
we have to get off the oil, and we have the INTELLECTUAL resources to do so. what we spent in Iraq would have converted our whole country over to an alternative fuel system in 5 years. if we had spent the 100 plus BILLION $$$$ on doing it...
instead? we are more dependant than ever on FOREIGN OIL now, and literally bent "over the barrel"....
tell me i'm wrong, and why......
we built an atom bomb in what? two or three years when we HAD to.....
I agree with you mostly.
The problem I have with the article is that it places 100% of the blame on Bush and the Republicans as if some how they are to blame for everything wrong with this country today. That is what makes the article total crap, and I stand by my original assessment of it. Also, that is probably the only reason 4ART posted it.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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... and the Nazis weren't 100% responsible for Germany's ills. That doesn't negate the fact that they were evil and wrong.
I don't blame the Republican Party whatsoever. I blame religious right-wing extremists, passing themselves off as Republicans.
Can you imagine if Clinton had proposed the kind of federal spending that Bush got away with?
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: I agree with you mostly.
The problem I have with the article is that it places 100% of the blame on Bush and the Republicans as if some how they are to blame for everything wrong with this country today. That is what makes the article total crap, and I stand by my original assessment of it. Also, that is probably the only reason 4ART posted it.
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Should Americans stand idle and watch people of other nations suffer under totalitarianism or dictatorship?
We do. We have. We are.
And, the crimes Saddam recently confessed to (allegedly) were committed while he was a US ally.
Yeah, I've seen the picture 4Art, it is all you ever post any time Saddam and Iraq comes up. I have a picture of Madaline Albright having tea with Kim Jong Ill, does that mean she is to blame for what Kim Jong Ill does?
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Should Americans stand idle and watch people of other nations suffer under totalitarianism or dictatorship?
We do. We have. We are.
And it's wrong. But, it is what makes taking out Saddam right. It was long over due and should have been done the first time around, but Bush Sr. coddled to the pacifist peaceniks, that to this day, insist that everything will be ok if we just leave dictators alone.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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Have you run out of intelligent responses already?
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources:
quote:Originally posted by 4Art:
Yeah, I've seen the picture 4Art, it is all you ever post any time Saddam and Iraq comes up. I have a picture of Madaline Albright having tea with Kim Jong Ill, does that mean she is to blame for what Kim Jong Ill does?
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The day the US Government helps a country that doesn't hold vast oil reserves, and that country appears appreciative of our help (unlike Iraq), is the day I'll concede the point.
Until then, I submit that you are being willingly conned.
Just because it's easier, sadly.
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources:
quote:Originally posted by 4Art:
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Should Americans stand idle and watch people of other nations suffer under totalitarianism or dictatorship?
We do. We have. We are.
And it's wrong. But, it is what makes taking out Saddam right. It was long over due and should have been done the first time around, but Bush Sr. coddled to the pacifist peaceniks, that to this day, insist that everything will be ok if we just leave dictators alone.
quote:Originally posted by 4Art: I can't say it any better than that, Glass.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: "the people of Iraq" need help???the people of New Orleans need to take care of themselves???? which is it???
Ok, so you're saying the people of Iraq didn't need help in getting rid of Saddam? Oh, thats right, there aren't any people against Saddam left, they get lined up and shot. It sickens me 4Art that you even try to liken Bush as a Nazi. It is an insult to those who suffered under Hitler.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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Once again: The day the US Government helps a country that doesn't hold vast oil reserves, and that country appears appreciative of our help (unlike Iraq), is the day I'll concede the point.
Also, I'm not comparing Bush to Hitler. I merely stated that the Nazis weren't 100% responsible for Germany's ills. That doesn't negate the fact that they were evil and wrong.
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Ok, so you're saying the people of Iraq didn't need help in getting rid of Saddam? Oh, thats right, there aren't any people against Saddam left, they get lined up and shot. It sickens me 4Art that you even try to liken Bush as a Nazi. It is an insult to those who suffered under Hitler.
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Why the U.S. Must Stay in Iraq By Steven Moyer http://stevemoyer.us Candidate for the U.S. Senate
There have been many reasons given for the war in Iraq, from weapons of mass destruction to the cause of freedom and democracy in the Middle East. But the one reason which continues to remain below the radar for most Americans is that the United States government is bankrupt.
How's that? The current federal debt is rapidly approaching eight trillion dollars. The current deficit forecast for this year was $333 billion before Katrina hit. Now the deficit estimates will have to be revised by $200-300 billion. The national debt will likely increase $600 billion within a year. That's over half a trillion dollars! But the Republicans have repeatedly told Americans that "deficits don't matter."
Where is this money coming from? Most of it has come from foreign investors, such as the central banks of China and Japan. They buy U.S. bonds because they have an excess of dollars from the current account deficit, also known as the "trade deficit," which is, quite ironically, about $600 billion.
The Federal Reserve also is a significant source for this "debt money." They can simply "pop" money into existence and loan it to the government. "Pop the magic money" should be engraved above the marble entrance to their Washington D.C. fortress. If you're beginning to feel like all of this financial "hocus-pocus" is a bit tenuous then that means you're waking up from the spell. It's a hopeful sign.
Right now the U.S. is borrowing $320 billion a year just to pay the interest on the national debt. ( 8 trillion times 4 percent ). When you find yourself borrowing just to pay the interest on your debt then you are bankrupt. If interest rates ( and bond rates ) rise one percent the government will need an additional $80 billion.
Most Americans doubt that we will ever pay off that huge debt, which comes to more than $26,000 per man, woman and child or more than $60,000 per full-time worker. 1.7 trillion of this debt is held by the Social Security Trust fund. The fund is already gone. Current recipients are getting their checks from foreign nations' purchase of U.S. bonds. At least that's one potential way to "spin" the facts. Who's paying for the war in Iraq? Japan and China. Who's paying for your Katrina relief? Japan and China. Who's paying for the highway bill? China and Japan. Take your pick of which "spin" you prefer.
One or all of these statements are true, at least in some respect, depending on how you wish to "slice and dice" the national debt. It would be one thing if the Social Security Trust Fund had been invested in private sector companies, but instead it's been spent on war in Iraq, tax cuts, and the Katrina disaster. It's all the same "pot of money."
Remember the famous words of Ross Perot in 1992, when the national debt was only four trillion dollars: "The national debt is immoral. It's stealing from our children." A decade ago the Republicans were shouting about the need for a "balanced budget amendment" but today's corrupt gang refuses to be bothered by such things as virtues, morals or scruples. When Bush recently asked them for another 50 billion they opened the checkbook and dutifully complied.
Why do foreigners buy U.S. bonds? Because the U.S. is sitting on 10 trillion dollars of Iraqi oil. That's a conservative estimate using the figure of 200 billion barrels times $50 a barrel. Oil is now over $60 a barrel and the estimates of Iraqi reserves go as high as 300 billion barrels, which could mean that the U.S. is sitting on 18 trillion dollars of oil. That's more than the capitalization of all the companies on the New York Stock Exchange!
Regardless of how much "window dressing" America puts on the Iraq situation, other nations know that the United States is the real government of Iraq. Without the presence of the U.S. military the current regime would fall within a week.
There's another reason the U.S. must stay in Iraq which is related but more difficult to understand. When other nations purchase oil they use dollars. In the past decade there have been discussions among OPEC nations to switch to the Euro as the required currency. If that happened, the United States would no longer reap the benefit of all these "oil dollars" circulating in the global economy. America would have to compete for Euros and the dollar would plummet in value. America's economy would collapse within a month.
Two OPEC nations have actively supported the movement to the Euro: Iraq and Venezuela. We already know what happened with Iraq. They have changed their mind. A few years ago there was an attempted coup against Venezuela's democratically-elected President Hugo Chavez. The coup failed, but there is now mounting evidence that the CIA was behind it.
Recently, Republican TV Christian evangelist Pat Robertson publicly called for the assassination of President Hugo Chavez. After a great deal of criticism from the public he apologized for his remarks. A few days ago Hugo Chavez called the United States a "terrorist state" in a speech before the United Nations. Chavez noted that Robertson's act was technically a "terrorist act" which has gone unpunished by this Republican-controlled government. Apparently our government has chosen to ignore the rule of law and has forgotten the virtue of justice.
When other nations look at the United States and its behavior it is easy to understand how they might conclude that they will be the next target of U.S. aggression if they dare to challenge the American global hegemony. When they are asked to "pony up" a few more hundred billion dollars to cover deficit spending by the Americans they look towards the Middle East and realize that they might be "cut off" at some future date from oil they desperately need. So they appease the tyranny of the United States government with another payment.
And that's the main reason that the U.S. must stay in Iraq. We are terrorizing the world into giving us more money to cover our increasing debts. The United States government is the biggest financial terrorist on the planet.
The basis for this "you need oil and we have it" extortion scheme is a widely-held perception that there is a finite amount of oil and that demand is increasing faster than supply. But that's only a perception. This perception has been premised on the widely-popularized notion of "Peak Oil."
The "Peak Oil" theory asserts that production curves have already peaked, or will peak soon, and the world will experience declining supplies while global demand is rapidly increasing.
This is a truly difficult prospect in the mind of anyone who accepts the notion that there are no alternatives to oil. This notion asserts that the world has "no choice" but to compete for dwindling supplies of oil. War is a natural consequence of such a competition.
The "Peak Oil" theory is a myth because it is based on false assumptions. It's the "big lie" being presented to the world as justification for U.S. military aggression and economic hegemony. It isn't about oil at all, really, but rather about the unwillingness of the U.S. to "live within its means," "pay its debts" and "play well with others."
America is essentially telling the world "give us more money because we are sitting on 10 trillion dollars of oil which you will need" along with "we'll overthrow any government which changes it's trade currency from the dollar to the Euro."
That's what America has become: the biggest bully on the block, a global financial terrorist, a Pax Americana extortionist. The U.S. is willing to be peaceful as long as you give it more money.
All of this is unnecessary. What's needed is a massive international initiative to develop alternative energy sources, such as synthetic fuels ( made from coal ), ethanol, biodiesel fuels produced by algae or renewable crops, wind power, hydroelectric, solar and a host of other alternative energy sources which have already been proven as viable alternatives to oil. As much as Americans hate even thinking about "consuming less" we could conceivably reduce our oil consumption by 10-20 percent with energy conservation measures. Truthfully, even if the world decided to continue its dependence on oil we could produce enough oil without depending on the Middle East.
There is an estimated 1.3 trillion barrels of oil, more than 5 times the amount of Iraq's estimated reserves, waiting for us on the ocean floor. Granted, it's more difficult to get to than the oil in Iraq, which is "easy oil" to mine by comparison, but it's doable. Therefore the myth of Peak Oil is a perceptual hoax cleverly used to justify the war in Iraq. It's an argument which accepts some facts and ignores others. Call it "the tyranny of the facts" if you wish. The technique employs only those facts which support the desired conclusion. It's a technique we've seen used repeatedly by the current gang of evildoers.
As with so many things in the current Republican regime, things are different than they seem. Perception is reality but only until the fleecing of America is accomplished. Then the truth sets in. Perceptions change but the truth persists.
Do I think we need to stay in Iraq? No, I think we need to leave Iraq and to do it soon. The international backlash from our foreign policy of military aggression and economic hegemony is brewing and it's going to be a hell of a disastrous storm when it reaches the coast. It has the potential to cause the greatest depression America has ever seen, perhaps even total economic collapse.
But, what the heck, let's be positive. It's the American way in the face of adversity.
One conceivable way out is to turn to the world and give our most sincere "mea culpa" for our past sins and begin working to free the world from dependence on oil. A few days ago the price of gasoline in London approached $10 a gallon! There are shortages popping up all over the world. The United States has five percent of the world's population and consumes 25 percent of the world's oil. It's time for us to work towards providing for our own energy needs and help the world free itself from dependence on oil.
There is an alternative policy to war, aggression and economic domination. There is a way for us to get out of Iraq and save America from financial disaster. This way requires us to throw the Republican party onto the trash heap of history's failed parties. It requires us to make a complete paradigm shift in American foreign policy. It's result will be friendlier relations with the world and a much smaller military.
Helpfulness is a virtue. We need to stop being the "world's bully" and start serving the needs of humanity. We need to help rather than hurt, make peace rather than war, create new solutions rather than perpetuate old problems.
Jesus taught us that "The love of money is the root of all evil." I believe it is clear that George Bush and the Republicans who support him have chosen the "love of money" over the "love of virtue."
We will soon wake up from this evil spell cast upon us by the Republicans and smell the fresh flowers of a peaceful spring. We will release our love of money and embrace virtue in both our words and deeds. We will rehabilitate our reputation in the world and service the true needs of humanity by focusing on developing alternative energy solutions which will free humanity from dependence on oil, tyranny and war.
All of this can happen as soon as we reject the Republican agenda of war, domination and financial terrorism.
May God bless us all with a graceful transition to the New World.
The Bush group's nuclear attack plan would not hesitate removing the entire Korean nation off the face of the earth by starting a nuclear war disaster. -Korean foreign ministry statement
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: What about you Glassman?
Should Americans stand idle and watch people of other nations suffer under totalitarianism or dictatorship?
Not to worry, Saddam is contained in the box, he can only hurt his own people now.
what makes you think any suffering has been alleviated by our actions in Iraq?
you still did not respond to my assertion that you CANNOT GIVE freedom to anyone....
the Iraqis will be back under a totalitarian regime similar to IRANs as soon as we leave....( with all due respect to OUR military? they are still under one now anyway, as a member of the military, one of the first things i learned was that the military is, and MUST BE, a totalitarian regime) it is very unlikely anything will change anytime soon... there is a chance they will build a a democracy BUT it will look like Iran not like US....
you obviously have not studied any history... name me one FREE country that wasn't freed from within....
and don't hand me Japan and Germany after WW2 cuz they were free before the war and they chose to try to dominate the world.....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"What makes you think any suffering has been alleviated by our actions in Iraq?...."
What makes you think the Iraq would be better if Saddam were still in charge?
"....you still did not respond to my assertion that you CANNOT GIVE freedom to anyone...."
I agree, you cannot give freedom to anyone, they have to want it, but what happens when a people are so oppressed that they cannot rise up on their own, as was the case with Iraq?
"...the Iraqis will be back under a totalitarian regime similar to IRANs as soon as we leave....( with all due respect to OUR military? they are still under one now anyway, as a member of the military, one of the first things i learned was that the military is, and MUST BE, a totalitarian regime) it is very unlikely anything will change anytime soon... there is a chance they will build a a democracy BUT it will look like Iran not like US...."
You may be correct, but I think the greatest chance of that happening would be if we left too early before Iraq was ready to stand up on it's own. Even if it turns out similar to Iran, it is still a step forward. Russia isn't a true democracy yet either, but progress is progress.
"....you obviously have not studied any history..."
Actually I have, though I am no expert.
"...name me one FREE country that wasn't freed from within and don't hand me Japan and Germany after WW2 cuz they were free before the war and they chose to try to dominate the world..."
Name me one FREE country that didn't have help from the outside to achieve it's freedom.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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Would the processes and methods used by England, Canada and Australia would have worked with someone like Saddam in power?
Iraq was a situation where the people there who would rise up against him and bring freedom from within were either dead, imprisoned or so afraid that they would suffer the previous mentioned conditions that they would/could not stand up and needed outside help.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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