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Because no one has proven that it was a fiasco, Glass! If Clinton sold him WMDs in the 80's, and over 100 of them weren't accounted for, where are they? If Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and all the rest of them, believed they had them, where did they all get false information? It is only now, right before the campaign, that they are saying there never were any! If Saddam used chemical weapons on his people, where are they? They HAD them! Where are they? THAT is the question! Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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How can I vote for Kerry, Glass, when he voted to keep partial-birth abortion legal six times! He supports the current policy which allows abortion on demand. He voted against the law that recognizes unborn children as victims who are killed in violent or federal crimes! He voted to use your tax dollars for abortion. He voted against notifying a minors parents, if they wanted an abortion. He is ALL pro choice! I can't vote for someone who believes this way, when I believe the total opposite! I am a Christian! My body is no longer my own! As the previous posts discuss, I am a vessel, for the Holy Spirit to dwell in! If God says He knew me, even before I was in my mothers womb, why would I want to take the chance that it isn't murder, and kill my unborn child? I know this causes a lot of conflict, and I'm not saying people don't have a choice, they do, but it all comes back to free will! I just don't believe that if you are a Christian, you support killing an unborn child! President Bush feels the same way that I do, about this issue, and many others! THAT is why I am voting for him. Like I've said before, he is only a human, and humans make mistakes! Someday, I'm sure he will know for sure, what was right, and what was wrong, in his presidency, and in the decisions he had to make, but right now, things are still too confused to really know the ending of this story! I have to go on faith, and believe that he thinks he is doing the best that he can do! You can't excuse mistakes, until there is proof! Just like in a a trial, someone is presumed innocent, until proven guilty! At least that is how I hope it would be, if I commited a crime! Not saying I would! Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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800 missiles to hit Iraq in first 48 hours By Andrew West and agencies January 26 2003 The Sun-Herald
The US intends to shatter Iraq "physically, emotionally and psychologically" by raining down on its people as many as 800 cruise missiles in two days.
The Pentagon battle plan aims not only to crush Iraqi troops, but also wipe out power and water supplies in the capital, Baghdad.
It is based on a strategy known as "Shock and Awe", conceived at the National Defense University in Washington, in which between 300 and 400 cruise missiles would fall on Iraq each day for two consecutive days. It would be more than twice the number of missiles launched during the entire 40 days of the 1991 GulfWar.
"There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," a Pentagon official told America's CBS News after a briefing on the plan. "The sheer size of this has never been seen before, never been contemplated before."
The plan has emerged just as American diplomats at the United Nations hinted that the US Administration might be willing to give UN weapons inspectors another month to complete their task.
Chief inspector Hans Blix is due to report back to the UN on Tuesday.
President George Bush has been displaying increasing impatience with the pace of inspections and is eager to start the bombing. But according to UN sources he has resigned himself to the fact that the US lacks enough votes on the Security Council to wage a military campaign.
Mr Bush's belligerence yesterday found a match in comments by Uday Hussein. In a rare public appearance, the son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein said the consequences of American attack on his country would make the September 11, 2001, terrorist strike look like a picnic.
He warned: "If they come, September 11, which they are crying over and see as a big thing, will be a real picnic for them, God willing.
also remeber France was not alone in saying NO....
French President Jacques Chirac and Russia's Vladimir Putin have agreed "their positions [on a US strike] are very close", a French spokeswoman said. Both countries are permanent members of the UN Security Council, and either could veto any UN approval of an American attack.
Mr Putin has also co-opted German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder into supporting a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Iraq. Germany is now the major power in Europe and the Chancellor's reluctance, if not outright refusal, to endorse a unilateral US strike would be a major setback to the Bush Administration.
The dossier by Dr Blix, and the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency Mohamed ElBaradei, is expected to report that Iraqi co-operation with inspectors has been "satisfactory" and they could find no "smoking gun", no evidence that could be used a pretext for war.
Bush KNEW... Kate.... it isn't a matter of finding them eventually, they were destroyed long ago....
i don't think he prayed enough.... and neither does 75% of the world.... But America's increasingly aggressive stance is isolating opinion around the world. Late on Friday, his Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld drove a wedge further into US-European relations when he dismissed Germany and France as representing "old Europe".
i don't know how anybody can excuse this stuff.... we forget so quickly...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 23, 2004).]
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What it boils down to Glass, is, if you are a Christian, you will vote for the one that supports moral issues! If you are not a Christian, you will vote for money, or worldly issues! Which side of the fence should we be on?
Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kate: What it boils down to Glass, is, if you are a Christian, you will vote for the one that supports moral issues! If you are not a Christian, you will vote for money, or worldly issues! Which side of the fence should we be on?
Kate, i am talking about moral issues... that's the problem here. President George Bush has been displaying increasing impatience with the pace of inspections and is eager to start the bombing. But according to UN sources he has resigned himself to the fact that the US lacks enough votes on the Security Council to wage a military campaign
i know you believe that Bush represents your moral position, but i have to say that the positions he actually acts on don't deliver... like the bombs(innocents died there Kate)
the partial birth(i can't believe ANYBODY DOES THIS)law could have been written to pass constittional muster..there are dozens of state laws restricting abortions that pass constitutional muster....it didn't...
i raise my children to be respectful of others, to tell the truth, to respect their elders, and then they watch this presidential campaign? and Kate, my distaste for Bush has only GROWN as i see each of his TV ads....no Kerry is NOT my choice to vote for, but i can't vote for a man who CONSTANTLY prevaricates.... Kerry came back from Nam and said.."something BAD is going on"..he told the truth, and it wasn't popular(with the powers that be)
Bush is really appealing to us as his flock...he will protect US from wolves.... he is usurping our religious iconography for his own means....
his recent campaign speeches in the swing states REALLY do sound like tent meetings... it's not correct Kate..
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 24, 2004).]
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"If you are not a Christian, you will vote for money, or worldly issues!" LMAO
Kate, what in hell do you think Bush stands for if it isn't money and worldly issues? You must have been duped by all their fabrications? Bush's, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's bottom lines all equal MONEY, which is a worldly issue.
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Bush'es first priorties, are God, and his morals, Wallace! Sure, he has to deal with the rest, just like we all do, but those issues are first for him, just like they are first for me!
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Don't laugh too much, Glass! The FDA has approved chip implants in people from ADSX now! If Kerry wins, he might demand it be mandatory for us ALL to have them, because he wants us to have a health care plan, to help us ALL! What would be the easiest way, to keep track of everybody? Hmmmmm! Don't want it! Sounds too much like the mark of the beast!
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Glass, if Bush prays for 2 hrs every day, I'll bet his first prayer is for more money from his oil interests. LOL Or more money for political purposes.
Kate, just how well do you know Bush that you are so sure of his morals? If it's because he said something, what do you expect from a politician? Someone I know who was very close to GHW Bush, said to me, "A politician's job is to get re-elected!" Wouldn't surprise me if the son is no different from the father. After all, first and foremost the family is political. And, that is also a worldly issue.
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Wallace, I don't know how I missed your post, but I will try to share my beliefs with you, so you at least know where I am coming from! I know you probably don't care what I think, but I care what you think, and that is why I want to share with you!
First of all, if you don't believe in God, you aren't going to believe in miracles! I can tell you, that I have experienced miracles in my own life, but that is another story! You wouldn't believe me anyway!
Christians believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary! The reason the woman was chosen to be a virgin, was because God was the father! The baby was placed there, by the Holy Spirit, which is the third part of the trinity of God! He is the power that created the Universe! The child needed to have an earthly mother, because he was being born into the flesh! He was becoming human, so he could be an example for us. If he would of been born from a man, he wouldn't of been the son of God, made flesh! If you are a person that believes in God, it is easy to understand this belief! God can do anything!
When Jesus walked on water, it was in response to their lack of faith! Since I believe God created the universe, I believe he can walk on water. Jesus is one of the three parts of the living God. The Holy Spirit, was the power that enabled him to walk on the water, because he was a man. The first time, Jesus walked to the boat, he scared the crap out of the disciples! And he told them not to be afraid! Matthew 14:27. Peter walked on the water, to Jesus, and started to sink, because of his fear, and lack of faith, and the Lord caught him up, and said, O thou of little faith, wherefore did thou doubt? He was trying to show them who he was, so that when he had to leave them, they would remember, and share their faith, and God's love with others!
As for the loaves and fishes, Jesus was just performing a miracle, with the power of the Holy Spirit! If he created the universe, why couldn't he create food? It wasn't just for the disciples faith, but for the people he was preaching to! He wanted them to see not only who he was, but he wanted them to remember him and they saw this miracle with their own eyes, just like I have seen miracles of God, in my own life, with my own eyes!
Why was Jonah swallowed by a whale? Because he didn't heed the Lords instructions, to share his beliefs with the evil people of that town, and fled! He was on a ship, and the Lord caused a terrible storm, so the guys in the boat, sent Jonah to call upon the Lord, so they wouldn't die! He told them, that he had fled the Lord, and that is why the Lord was angry! So they picked him up, and threw him into the sea,because Jonah knew he was the cause of it, and the sea became calm! Now, the Lord, who created the universe, PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah, for three days and nights! God made the fish, big enough, and kept the stomach acid from eating him, and he provided him with air, and left him in there, long enough to get his attention! And Jonah talked it all out with God, and God made the fish throw him up on land! Sounds like a story Wallace, but since I believe God can do anything, I believe he did this also!
Why did people live 400 years or more? Because God was populating the earth, from Adam's seed, and he gave them extra long lives to do so! When he saw how evil they were, because they had bred with the sons of God, which were in essence, bad angels, there were children born unto them, that were evil. Giants were born, and they were really REALLY BAD people! So God decided that men wouldn't live that long after that, which he says in Genesis 6:3. We are alloted 120 years! So he decided to destroy them, other than Noah and his family! There is much evidence of this flood, all over the world. The belief is, from scripture, that there was a mantle of water, that surrounded the earth, and the water from the flood, came from this mantle, and from the earth. Scientists believe this mantle, caused the earth to hold in more oxygen, and protected people more, and that is why they were able to live so long! After the flood, that mantle wasn't there anymore! Anyway, the reason the animals didn't eat each other, or the people in the ark, was because they reverted back to eating plants and herbs, and hay, like they did in the garden, before Adam and Eve sinned! God kept them calm, or caused them to hibernate, so that they would be able to travel together! The ones that were sleeping, wouldn't of required food!
Why was Lot's wife, turned to salt? Because she didn't listen, and looked back! Here is a scientific explanation for it! It is by a man who did archeological digs, and found a site that they believe was Soddom and Gommorrhea! If God can create a wouldwide flood, he can burn up a town with fire and brimstone, and turn a woman to salt! There is evidence that this happened, in this article! http://anchorstone.com/sodom2.html
As for why Christians were burned at the stake? How do you feel about me, in your heart Wallace? Many people were burned at the stake, for their beliefs! People want to hate the Christians, because they don't understand! My Savior was condemned, and crucified, for doing nothing more, than loving us! That is what I believe! That is what I understand! I wish I could share with you, the miracles that have happened in my own life! You see, I care about you Wallace! It isn't my humanness, but because God lives in my heart, that gives me this capacity! It is ok if you hate me! It hurts, just like any person would be hurt, but I can deal with it, because I only want to share the love of God with you! I know this would sound sappy to me too, if I didn't know the difference, but I do, so I am sharing!
Kate, I don't hate you, dislike you or have any negative feelings toward you at all. I just feel that people get too carried away with religion and use it to hide behind. So far, I have seen you say nothing hypocritical, and, that IS something!!
I know all about those events, stories, fairy tales or "miracles" (as you call them). You may have noticed in my posts that I stated my parents were both ministers...cut my teeth on hearing about and reading the bible. I chose not to believe them as fact or miracles...once I started to be able to use logic.
I think the most ridiculous fable is that Mary was a virgin! Maybe that's what she told Joseph and he bought the "holy visitation crap". Must have been rather slow in the mind!!
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The logic behind faith is that we have the ability to blindly believe in something. If we have the ability to do such things, why is that not logical? Religion is repsonsible for society as we know it today. I think society uses logic to dictate law, and that logic for most is based on religous belief. At the very least ethics and morals are taught through religion. I just thing faith is logic. And in order to fully understand ones religous beliefs, or faith as a whole, logic must be used.
Posts: 1153 | From: northeast | Registered: Apr 2004
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Faith, by defintion, requires one to ignore and or accept facts not in evidence...
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Kate, I do enjoy a good debate. And, I am not trying to test your faith. I am sure it is very beneficial and important to you. That in itself is an asset no one can take from you. I am also convinced that it is good for one's health and feelings of well being. Honest!
Another wrote: "Religion is repsonsible for society as we know it today."
Isn't it more likely the reverse is true? That society is responsible for religion as we know it today?
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Faith, by defintion, [b]requires one to ignore and or accept facts not in evidence...[/B]
evidence is perception, just as faith is. The only difference is that one is tangable, the other is not. Both are left up to logic. Logic does not only dictate your perception of the physical world. There are some great books on death and dieing, which are worth the read. Out-of body experiences, which can be understood through logic or faith. There are so many things that logic can not interpret, and so many things that faith can not interpret. Through logic comes faith, and through faith comes logic. They are both paradoxal. There is no one definite answer for anything logic or faith based. Logic is taking a leap of faith, and faith is understanding logic. For example, you understand that your computer screen is sitting right in front of you, things as you see them are not necessarily true, but only to the eye. You have faith in your logic that your computer screen is in front of you, but it is faith that dictates it is not logic.
quote:Originally posted by Wallace#1: Glass, you are right!
Kate, I do enjoy a good debate. And, I am not trying to test your faith. I am sure it is very beneficial and important to you. That in itself is an asset no one can take from you. I am also convinced that it is good for one's health and feelings of well being. Honest!
Another wrote: "Religion is repsonsible for society as we know it today."
Isn't it more likely the reverse is true? That society is responsible for religion as we know it today?
Wallace I take your point, and I agree. But I also disagree. Society is responsible for religion as we know it today, but religion is also responsible for society as we know it today. The two society (logic if you please) and religion depend on eachother for existance.
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the danger(IMO) of taking the bible or any other religious teaching too literally, is that WE don't even communicate 100% amongst one another today...even tho we live in the same time and country.. the bible was written in a different language(actually the books of the bible were written in different languages) and compiled and interpreted into ONE BOOK 400 years after the time of Christ..... some books were left out....
Jewish teachings NOT to eat pork and shellfish made SCIENTIFIC sense...before refrigeration and understanding of how parasites are shared
...faith and logic do separate...
it doesn't make one stupid or ignorant for having FAITH.....
my annoyances occur when i see people using other peoples faith to manipulate them... and i am seeing PLENTY of it..
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 25, 2004).]
You wrote: You have faith in your logic that your computer screen is in front of you, but it is faith that dictates it is not logic. *************************************
You sure did lose me on that one.
I agree with Glass, that faith and logic are two entirely different modes of awareness or knowledge.
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Faith, is believing, without seeing! I never saw a post, where you said about your parents Wallace, but believe it or not, I did sense that they were! Not to be offensive, but I also sense that they were very strict, and though they taught the scriptures, they didn't live by them! Sorry if I'm wrong, but that is what my soul seems to be telling me!
Like I said before Wallace, I have experienced physical miracles in my own life, that defy science! I praise God for them all! As for Mary being a virgin, that isn't so hard to believe, if you believe that God created man from clay, and a woman from a mans rib! I believe He can place a baby in a womb too, since he is the creator of life!
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It is much better, than believing I evolved from a monkey! My family came from Adam! Where did yours come from? Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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that's right Wallace... God used the clay right next our clay to make the monkeys...
Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Actually, I think you are both wrong! I might look like a monkey, but as far as I know the course of man's origination, I believe it was from the same line as were chimps...not monkeys.
Now, I think I might look like a chimp! Much more handsome!!! LOL
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Sigh! My church believes, that Adam and Eve, lived to be pretty darn old, like a lot of them did before the flood, and if they had a child every year, they could of had 800 children by the time they died! If their children married each other, when old enough to marry, and they started having children at 14 or whenever they were of age, each child could of had seven hundred children, etc, etc, etc, thus populating the earth! That is why God let people live so long before the flood! But then, the son's of God came, and intermarried with the women, and things got way out of hand! Sorry for the short explanation, but I'm tired! Posts: 622 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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OK, did it ever bother you that 800 yrs might be a translational error that it was suposed to be 800 moons...it kind of brings it closer to a real lifetime...60-70 yrs..
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No, I never considered it that way, because God is very specific in his time periods, and he told Noah in Genesis 6, that mans number would be 120 years, after the flood, with the exception of Noah and his family, because they found grace!
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i personally don't think that questioning any of the factual issues in the Bible precludes Faith by the way. the message still gets thru...
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There is one story I can believe. That is because it makes some sense and is probably based upon reality. It is that David killed Goliath with a stone flung from his sling.
Actually, the bible is a good teaching tool to show man many of the differences between right and wrong. However, it was still written by man and contains much of man's bias and prejudices. I say use it with caution and with reason. Otherwise, we can get too involved and carried away with it.
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