If Bush, or anybody else for that reason, says gay marriage is wrong, he is saying so because of his religious beliefs. He is entitled to these beliefs. However, just as in the judge example, if she was not allowed to make a judgment based upon what it says in the bible, (the same bible the defendent had to place his hand on and swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...so help him God) then why should a judgment for marriage be made based upon the bible? (The Bible is not everybodys book!) Everybody is supposed to be treated equal - religion does not allow this when it comes to gay marriage. Because of this, there is no justifiable reason that gay marriages should not be allowed. Simply put, saying the bible says it is wrong is not good enough.
What does everybody else feel about this? Provide an argument that is not based on religion! Saying it doesn't look right doesn't count either.
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 20, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 20, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by kamikaze (edited October 20, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by kamikaze (edited October 20, 2004).]
1) Man created God;
2) Man created religion;
3) Man created and wrote the scriptures, and
4) Man (man and woman in the general sense) created homosexuality, and
5) Man created right and wrong.
Who is to say which of "man's" creations are good or bad -- right or wrong. Long before established religion, man (in the general sense) was possessive when it came to each other (male and female...and probably even like sexes). Therefore, marriage in the broader sense is not religious but natural...from a possessive point of view.
I believe one should live and let live. Life is too short otherwise. We become fodder for the worms and maggots. So, what does it matter when we are deceased whether or not someone of the same sex gets married.
It just is not my cup of tea. That is called "choice"!
i believe that marriage is about children....
we make a committment to one another to protect each other and our children...
this union is a contract between two people, for the BENEFIT of their CHILDREN...
unfortunately,too,too many marriages (and the children) are abandoned....
people who don't have children, don't NEED the protection of marriage...a civil union is and should be acceptable to protect the rights they deserve in a relationship...
such as survivorship, and hosp. visiting rights....i think that a contract can be designed for this....
close as i can get....W/O religion....
marriage is what marriage is... a man and a woman...
anything else isn't marriage..it IS something, and it DOES and (IMO)SHOULD be respected by the rest of society, but it's not marriage...(a rose by any other name)
i doubt that will satisfy anybody...but it's how i feel...
Just remember, some gays do have children, adopted, natural born or otherwise. However, as long as a civil union protects those children's rights as well, it's OK with me. If not, let them marry.
So-called sin is strictly in the eyes of the beholder! Life goes on.
quote:
Originally posted by futuresobjective:
to anybody who agrees that same sex marriages should be allowed... what is your defenition of marriage?
To me, marriage is mostly about the legal union of two people. I mean you can live with your girlfriend have sex, kids, both go to work and raise your kids and never get married (of course there is common-law but we won't include that), and even though you are not married, you are doing all of the same things you would if you were married.
If gay people are not allowed to get marriend they lose out on a lot of benefits that hetero couples are allowed. For example, I was watching a gay rally or something and there were gay speakers. One lady was going to have to move to the UK with her partner because her partner's visa (who was from the UK) was about to expire. Now if they were allowed to get married they wouldn't have this problem.
I understand that you probably view marriage as a religious belief and that is fine. Possibly on that alone marriage should not be allowed, unless there are pastors willing to do the ceremony. But to deny these people of the rights that hetero couples get is not right in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by tigertony:
You hit the nail on the head it is a religious ceremony that was made to bind a man and woman as one before God.Now if they want to come up with there own thing thats up to them.We don't have to change our beliefs to accommodate them.We believe that it is wrong.
On that note, all homosexuals should die and burn in hell. Homosexuality is wrong from a biblical standpoint, the bible is not the only book people believe in, but some homosexuals do still believe in God, and worship to him. God forgives people of their sins, so he will forgive homosexuals. So in that case, anything that is said to be wrong in the Bible, can still be done, only that it is a sin, but God will later forgive for that sin.
All I am saying is that just because God says something about the religious binding doesn't mean they should be treated unfairly when it comes to the laws of our country.
*** If the ten commandments cannot be posted outside of a courthouse, that same courthouse should not be able to stop two homosexuals from getting married because of what the bible says.
[This message has been edited by glfpimp (edited October 21, 2004).]
If you are a Christian, and you believe this way, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, what is right and wrong, because the Holy Spirit dwells within, and TELLS you what is right! It is up to you, whether you listen to satans lies or not, and whether you act upon them, and do what is wrong! It is called Free will! If you are living for yourself, you listen to the lies! If you are living for others, you won't listen to them! It's as complicated, or as simple as that! Many people are turned against Christians, simply because someone they looked up to in their past, used religion as an excuse to do what they wanted, and caused pain in the lives of others because of it! That isn't being a real Christian! A real Christian, tries to reach out, and love others, the way that they want to be loved! They put others ahead of themselves! They put God above everyone else! Yes, I have a reason for sharing this! The Lord is sharing with me, that there is a very bitter angry, hurting person, who reads in these boards, and God only wants to reach out to you, and show you what real love is! You can take this for what it is worth, or make fun of me, and call me crazy if you want, that is all up to you! No, I don't hear an audible voice, telling me to say this, but it is called the gift of knowledge, and it is an awesome responsibility, for me to pass on what I know, to the one who needs to hear it most! It is a scary gift, which I don't take lightly! It is my absolute proof that there is a loving God! Take it, or leave it, it's all up to you!
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
What if:
God created man, in his own image!
Man created religion, God created Christianity!
Man wrote the scriptures, inspired by God.
satan created homosexuality, and every other sin, written about in God's Word.
God created right, and satan created wrong.God created light; satan created darkness!If you are a Christian, and you believe this way, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, what is right and wrong, because the Holy Spirit dwells within, and TELLS you what is right! It is up to you, whether you listen to satans lies or not, and whether you act upon them, and do what is wrong! It is called Free will! If you are living for yourself, you listen to the lies! If you are living for others, you won't listen to them! It's as complicated, or as simple as that! Many people are turned against Christians, simply because someone they looked up to in their past, used religion as an excuse to do what they wanted, and caused pain in the lives of others because of it! That isn't being a real Christian! A real Christian, tries to reach out, and love others, the way that they want to be loved! They put others ahead of themselves! They put God above everyone else! Yes, I have a reason for sharing this! The Lord is sharing with me, that there is a very bitter angry, hurting person, who reads in these boards, and God only wants to reach out to you, and show you what real love is! You can take this for what it is worth, or make fun of me, and call me crazy if you want, that is all up to you! No, I don't hear an audible voice, telling me to say this, but it is called the gift of knowledge, and it is an awesome responsibility, for me to pass on what I know, to the one who needs to hear it most! It is a scary gift, which I don't take lightly! It is my absolute proof that there is a loving God! Take it, or leave it, it's all up to you!
the devil is in you as well...that can not be overlooked.
satan created homosexuality, and every other sin, written about in God's Word.
God created right, and satan created wrong.God created light; satan created darkness!
---------------------------
Supposedly, god created ALL things. That would INCLUDE Satan, homosexuality, sin, wrong and darkness. If not, who created Satan so he could create at all, let alone create homosexuality, sin, wrong and darkness. Supposedly and according to your "word of god", nothing (other than god) could/can create!!! Something is wrong with the logic about your god's omnipotence.
It is easily understood why some become avid members of cults.
[This message has been edited by Wallace#1 (edited October 22, 2004).]
So, god is not so perfect after all? He created something that was evil or turned out evil? Where is the perfection in that?And, since he created ALL things, he DID create homosexuality, sin, wrong darkness, etc. Now don't give me the "choice" bit either.
I see MAN's hand in everything said to be god's, in his so-called word and in religion.
There has been more harm done in the name of god and religion than anything else. That is FACT!!!
Then, there is the need of MAN to control...one another as well as the populace. No better way than with religion which promotes weakness rather than strength.
Faith rather than logic.
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
I would die for my faith, would you die for your logic?
some would say faith is logic. I would think that holds true for the Pope.
i see a sign of the CREATOR in humanity....
i hope that this will help....
it's really quite simple....
the mere fact that we have the word PERFECTION.... we have no model for it, it does not exist except in concept, and i attribute it's existence in our minds, even though it's only a concept , to the CREATOR
unfortunately, i don't see much else, but we are getting better, like the markets, we have retracements and recessions....
Well, here's more. Some believe a guy named Jesus was of virgin birth. Sure!! That's how Mary got pregnant.
Some believe Jesus walked on water. Sure, when everyone else on earth then and now sink into water.
Some believe Jesus fed a multitude with just a few fish and a few loaves of bread. Sure, providing multitude in those days meant about 2 people.
Some believe Jonah was swallowed by a whale. Sure, and he lived to tell about it???
Some believe a guy to have lived over 400 years. Sure, and he wasn't even a turtle.
Some believe Noah built a huge ark and collected all the world's animals and kept them for 40 days and 40 nights? Sure, and how many did the lions, tigers, cheetahs and other carnivorous animals devour during that time, and, how many of the specialty foods was he able to bring such as what the Koloa (sp) bear eats. How many animals did he get from the Americas...which he must have discovered?
Some believe god turned a woman into a pillar of salt because she turned to look at Sodom and Gamorra (sp). Sure, and he forgot the pepper.
Shall I go on with fairy tales?
I just wonder how many of those people were smoking hashish back in those days.
How many throughout the world were burned at the stake in the name of Christianity? Those that did the deeds and those that encouraged the deeds claimed to have been Christians too.
Come on, give me a break!!! Give me something real and logical to believe in.
God is the accumulated result of man's weaknesses, fears and ignorance ... passed down from time immemorial. It is as simple as that.
The good thing is that MAN decided right from wrong and in some way put it down in writing and, for some, in actions. Now, we supposedly have laws and mores that define a good deal of right from wrong...however poorly they may be observed or administered.
I don't give a goddamn what religion a person may be as long they act in a humane manner and do not try to force or even press their religious beliefs upon others. That is one thing the "word of god" (in reality, MAN) should have put into the 11
Commandments.
[This message has been edited by Wallace#1 (edited October 22, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
satan is around me, but not IN me! He can influence my thoughts, but he can't dwell within, because there is only room for one, and that is the Holy Spirit. If I wasn't a Christian, satan would be able to enter, but, Greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world!
Kate, this is the same stuff Bush seems to be thinking too....
you guys are pretty scary....
Pat Robertson knows we are all sinners and has asked Bush to admit to his mistakes, this holy spirit leaving no room for amything else is not in the bible, i don't know where you all are getting it from.....
When I was born, I was as pure as the driven snow. Any such thing as sin had to have come later, unless the sin was carried by sperm to the egg...osmosis. Being innocent is not a sin as far as I know.
Yes, I know the concept behind your statement that we are all born sinners, and I don't buy it in the least. Guilty when born? BULL! Surprised some holy rollers haven't found a way to douse an embyro with water yet!!!!
[This message has been edited by Wallace#1 (edited October 22, 2004).]
1 John 4 says, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Glass, God is not going to dwell in the same vessel that satan is, so therefore, if the Holy Spirit dwells within, satan is not there! He is prowling around, trying to keep those who love the Lord, from doing his will, by affecting our thoughts, and using those who don't know him, to influence us! It is called oppression, when we are Christians, possession, when we are not! It is a scary thing! It is called a battle with the principalities, which if you trust in the Lord, like it says in my favorite Psalm 91, he will help you, and care for you!
here is the part you guys are not heeding Kate....and guess what?
this IN MY OPINION is probably the MOST important part...
righteousness and judgement are in OVERABUNDANCE.....
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
not much TRUTH coming out of the White House.......this is one of the SIGNS of annointment to look for...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 23, 2004).]
how can you suport Bush based on FAITH after the WMD fiasco?
it opposes everything that prayer and guidance represent.....
it is SO WRONG.....
one can only conclude that Bush prayed for guidance and was given false information to accomplish his goals....that doesn't sound too kosher....
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 23, 2004).]
note the date on this.... http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/25/1042911596206.html?oneclick=true
800 missiles to hit Iraq in first 48 hours
By Andrew West and agencies
January 26 2003
The Sun-Herald
The US intends to shatter Iraq "physically, emotionally and psychologically" by raining down on its people as many as 800 cruise missiles in two days.
The Pentagon battle plan aims not only to crush Iraqi troops, but also wipe out power and water supplies in the capital, Baghdad.
It is based on a strategy known as "Shock and Awe", conceived at the National Defense University in Washington, in which between 300 and 400 cruise missiles would fall on Iraq each day for two consecutive days. It would be more than twice the number of missiles launched during the entire 40 days of the 1991 GulfWar.
"There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," a Pentagon official told America's CBS News after a briefing on the plan. "The sheer size of this has never been seen before, never been contemplated before."
The plan has emerged just as American diplomats at the United Nations hinted that the US Administration might be willing to give UN weapons inspectors another month to complete their task.
Chief inspector Hans Blix is due to report back to the UN on Tuesday.
President George Bush has been displaying increasing impatience with the pace of inspections and is eager to start the bombing. But according to UN sources he has resigned himself to the fact that the US lacks enough votes on the Security Council to wage a military campaign.
Mr Bush's belligerence yesterday found a match in comments by Uday Hussein. In a rare public appearance, the son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein said the consequences of American attack on his country would make the September 11, 2001, terrorist strike look like a picnic.
He warned: "If they come, September 11, which they are crying over and see as a big thing, will be a real picnic for them, God willing.
also remeber France was not alone in saying NO....
French President Jacques Chirac and Russia's Vladimir Putin have agreed "their positions [on a US strike] are very close", a French spokeswoman said. Both countries are permanent members of the UN Security Council, and either could veto any UN approval of an American attack.
Mr Putin has also co-opted German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder into supporting a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Iraq. Germany is now the major power in Europe and the Chancellor's reluctance, if not outright refusal, to endorse a unilateral US strike would be a major setback to the Bush Administration.
The dossier by Dr Blix, and the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency Mohamed ElBaradei, is expected to report that Iraqi
co-operation with inspectors has been "satisfactory" and they could find no "smoking gun", no evidence that could be used a pretext for war.
Bush KNEW... Kate....
it isn't a matter of finding them eventually,
they were destroyed long ago....
i don't think he prayed enough....
and neither does 75% of the world....
But America's increasingly aggressive stance is isolating opinion around the world. Late on Friday, his Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld drove a wedge further into US-European relations when he dismissed Germany and France as representing "old Europe".
i don't know how anybody can excuse this stuff....
we forget so quickly...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 23, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
What it boils down to Glass, is, if you are a Christian, you will vote for the one that supports moral issues! If you are not a Christian, you will vote for money, or worldly issues! Which side of the fence should we be on?
Kate, i am talking about moral issues...
that's the problem here.
President George Bush has been displaying increasing impatience with the pace of inspections and is eager to start the bombing. But according to UN sources he has resigned himself to the fact that the US lacks enough votes on the Security Council to wage a military campaign
i know you believe that Bush represents your moral position, but i have to say that the positions he actually acts on don't deliver...
like the bombs(innocents died there Kate)
the partial birth(i can't believe ANYBODY DOES THIS)law could have been written to pass constittional muster..there are dozens of state laws restricting abortions that pass constitutional muster....it didn't...
i raise my children to be respectful of others, to tell the truth, to respect their elders, and then they watch this presidential campaign? and Kate, my distaste for Bush has only GROWN as i see each of his TV ads....no Kerry is NOT my choice to vote for, but i can't vote for a man who CONSTANTLY prevaricates....
Kerry came back from Nam and said.."something BAD is going on"..he told the truth, and it wasn't popular(with the powers that be)
Bush is really appealing to us as his flock...he will protect US from wolves....
he is usurping our religious iconography for his own means....
his recent campaign speeches in the swing states REALLY do sound like tent meetings...
it's not correct Kate..
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 24, 2004).]
Kate, what in hell do you think Bush stands for if it isn't money and worldly issues? You must have been duped by all their fabrications? Bush's, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's bottom lines all equal MONEY, which is a worldly issue.
and i think Rove has implanted a microphone in his brain so Bush thinks God is talking to him
http://publish.nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/rate/125456/%3C?php%20echo
that's who he was telling to let him finish .....LOL
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 24, 2004).]
Kate, just how well do you know Bush that you are so sure of his morals? If it's because he said something, what do you expect from a politician? Someone I know who was very close to GHW Bush, said to me, "A politician's job is to get re-elected!" Wouldn't surprise me if the son is no different from the father. After all, first and foremost the family is political.
And, that is also a worldly issue.
First of all, if you don't believe in God, you aren't going to believe in miracles! I can tell you, that I have experienced miracles in my own life, but that is another story! You wouldn't believe me anyway!
Christians believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary! The reason the woman was chosen to be a virgin, was because God was the father! The baby was placed there, by the Holy Spirit, which is the third part of the trinity of God! He is the power that created the Universe! The child needed to have an earthly mother, because he was being born into the flesh! He was becoming human, so he could be an example for us. If he would of been born from a man, he wouldn't of been the son of God, made flesh! If you are a person that believes in God, it is easy to understand this belief! God can do anything!
When Jesus walked on water, it was in response to their lack of faith! Since I believe God created the universe, I believe he can walk on water. Jesus is one of the three parts of the living God. The Holy Spirit, was the power that enabled him to walk on the water, because he was a man. The first time, Jesus walked to the boat, he scared the crap out of the disciples! And he told them not to be afraid! Matthew 14:27. Peter walked on the water, to Jesus, and started to sink, because of his fear, and lack of faith, and the Lord caught him up, and said, O thou of little faith, wherefore did thou doubt? He was trying to show them who he was, so that when he had to leave them, they would remember, and share their faith, and God's love with others!
As for the loaves and fishes, Jesus was just performing a miracle, with the power of the Holy Spirit! If he created the universe, why couldn't he create food? It wasn't just for the disciples faith, but for the people he was preaching to! He wanted them to see not only who he was, but he wanted them to remember him and they saw this miracle with their own eyes, just like I have seen miracles of God, in my own life, with my own eyes!
Why was Jonah swallowed by a whale? Because he didn't heed the Lords instructions, to share his beliefs with the evil people of that town, and fled! He was on a ship, and the Lord caused a terrible storm, so the guys in the boat, sent Jonah to call upon the Lord, so they wouldn't die! He told them, that he had fled the Lord, and that is why the Lord was angry! So they picked him up, and threw him into the sea,because Jonah knew he was the cause of it, and the sea became calm! Now, the Lord, who created the universe, PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah, for three days and nights! God made the fish, big enough, and kept the stomach acid from eating him, and he provided him with air, and left him in there, long enough to get his attention! And Jonah talked it all out with God, and God made the fish throw him up on land! Sounds like a story Wallace, but since I believe God can do anything, I believe he did this also!
Why did people live 400 years or more? Because God was populating the earth, from Adam's seed, and he gave them extra long lives to do so! When he saw how evil they were, because they had bred with the sons of God, which were in essence, bad angels, there were children born unto them, that were evil. Giants were born, and they were really REALLY BAD people! So God decided that men wouldn't live that long after that, which he says in Genesis 6:3. We are alloted 120 years! So he decided to destroy them, other than Noah and his family! There is much evidence of this flood, all over the world. The belief is, from scripture, that there was a mantle of water, that surrounded the earth, and the water from the flood, came from this mantle, and from the earth. Scientists believe this mantle, caused the earth to hold in more oxygen, and protected people more, and that is why they were able to live so long! After the flood, that mantle wasn't there anymore! Anyway, the reason the animals didn't eat each other, or the people in the ark, was because they reverted back to eating plants and herbs, and hay, like they did in the garden, before Adam and Eve sinned! God kept them calm, or caused them to hibernate, so that they would be able to travel together! The ones that were sleeping, wouldn't of required food!
Why was Lot's wife, turned to salt? Because she didn't listen, and looked back! Here is a scientific explanation for it! It is by a man who did archeological digs, and found a site that they believe was Soddom and Gommorrhea! If God can create a wouldwide flood, he can burn up a town with fire and brimstone, and turn a woman to salt! There is evidence that this happened, in this article!
http://anchorstone.com/sodom2.html
As for why Christians were burned at the stake? How do you feel about me, in your heart Wallace? Many people were burned at the stake, for their beliefs! People want to hate the Christians, because they don't understand! My Savior was condemned, and crucified, for doing nothing more, than loving us! That is what I believe! That is what I understand! I wish I could share with you, the miracles that have happened in my own life! You see, I care about you Wallace! It isn't my humanness, but because God lives in my heart, that gives me this capacity! It is ok if you hate me! It hurts, just like any person would be hurt, but I can deal with it, because I only want to share the love of God with you! I know this would sound sappy to me too, if I didn't know the difference, but I do, so I am sharing!
You wrote: How do you feel about me
Kate, I don't hate you, dislike you or have any negative feelings toward you at all.
I just feel that people get too carried away with religion and use it to hide behind. So far, I have seen you say nothing hypocritical, and, that IS something!!
I know all about those events, stories, fairy tales or "miracles" (as you call them).
You may have noticed in my posts that I stated my parents were both ministers...cut my teeth on hearing about and reading the bible. I chose not to believe them as fact or miracles...once I started to be able to use logic.
I think the most ridiculous fable is that Mary was a virgin! Maybe that's what she told Joseph and he bought the "holy visitation crap". Must have been rather slow in the mind!!
Kate, I do enjoy a good debate. And, I am not trying to test your faith. I am sure it is very beneficial and important to you. That in itself is an asset no one can take from you. I am also convinced that it is good for one's health and feelings of well being. Honest!
Another wrote:
"Religion is repsonsible for society as we know it today."
Isn't it more likely the reverse is true? That society is responsible for religion as we know it today?
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Faith, by defintion, [b]requires one to ignore and or accept facts not in evidence...[/B]
evidence is perception, just as faith is. The only difference is that one is tangable, the other is not. Both are left up to logic. Logic does not only dictate your perception of the physical world. There are some great books on death and dieing, which are worth the read. Out-of body experiences, which can be understood through logic or faith. There are so many things that logic can not interpret, and so many things that faith can not interpret. Through logic comes faith, and through faith comes logic. They are both paradoxal. There is no one definite answer for anything logic or faith based. Logic is taking a leap of faith, and faith is understanding logic. For example, you understand that your computer screen is sitting right in front of you, things as you see them are not necessarily true, but only to the eye. You have faith in your logic that your computer screen is in front of you, but it is faith that dictates it is not logic.
quote:
Originally posted by Wallace#1:
Glass, you are right!Kate, I do enjoy a good debate. And, I am not trying to test your faith. I am sure it is very beneficial and important to you. That in itself is an asset no one can take from you. I am also convinced that it is good for one's health and feelings of well being. Honest!
Another wrote:
"Religion is repsonsible for society as we know it today."Isn't it more likely the reverse is true? That society is responsible for religion as we know it today?
Wallace I take your point, and I agree. But I also disagree. Society is responsible for religion as we know it today, but religion is also responsible for society as we know it today. The two society (logic if you please) and religion depend on eachother for existance.
Jewish teachings NOT to eat pork and shellfish made SCIENTIFIC sense...before refrigeration and understanding of how parasites are shared
...faith and logic do separate...
it doesn't make one stupid or ignorant for having FAITH.....
my annoyances occur when i see people using other peoples faith to manipulate them...
and i am seeing PLENTY of it..
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 25, 2004).]
You wrote:
You have faith in your logic that your computer screen is in front of you, but it is faith that dictates it is not logic.
*************************************
You sure did lose me on that one.
I agree with Glass, that faith and logic are two entirely different modes of awareness or knowledge.
Like I said before Wallace, I have experienced physical miracles in my own life, that defy science! I praise God for them all! As for Mary being a virgin, that isn't so hard to believe, if you believe that God created man from clay, and a woman from a mans rib! I believe He can place a baby in a womb too, since he is the creator of life!
Sorry, Kate, don't buy either of those! Far too ridiculous.
My family came from Adam! Where did yours come from?
Now, I think I might look like a chimp! Much more handsome!!! LOL
Your family can be from chimps, and mine can be from Adam!
My church believes, that Adam and Eve, lived to be pretty darn old, like a lot of them did before the flood, and if they had a child every year, they could of had 800 children by the time they died! If their children married each other, when old enough to marry, and they started having children at 14 or whenever they were of age, each child could of had seven hundred children, etc, etc, etc, thus populating the earth! That is why God let people live so long before the flood! But then, the son's of God came, and intermarried with the women, and things got way out of hand! Sorry for the short explanation, but I'm tired!
OK, did it ever bother you that 800 yrs might be a translational error that it was suposed to be 800 moons...it kind of brings it closer to a real lifetime...60-70 yrs..
not trying to be mean Kate...
Actually, the bible is a good teaching tool to show man many of the differences between right and wrong. However, it was still written by man and contains much of man's bias and prejudices. I say use it with caution and with reason. Otherwise, we can get too involved and carried away with it.
Ric
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
It is much better, than believing I evolved from a monkey!
Oh well enough said.
Ric
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
My church believes, that Adam and Eve had many children, and that Cain and Able married their sisters! I think that Cain and Able were the only ones mentioned, because they were an important part of the scriptures, describing the first murder! No one really knows for sure, but that is what we believe! I don't personally believe in evolution, even though I did at one time, because I thought perhaps God evolved us over time, but I have since changed my beliefs based on a lot of Christian scientists, who believe that Neandrathal man was a normal human being, who had a vitamin B deficiency, and they all had rickets, which malformed their heads, and bone stuctures! Some people also had cone shaped heads, from rituals in which they wore bands on their childrens heads when they were born, and gave them a conelike appearance! I have come to believe that man was created in one day, just like scripture says! I value others opinions though!
[This message has been edited by Ric (edited October 27, 2004).]
interestingly enough, wherever WE go, a LOT of other stuff dies....
most of the archeological eveidence shows that they were already in europe when we arrived, but died out soon after...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 27, 2004).]
Ric
quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Then you must believe that Goliath was a giant! Hmmmmmmm!
Hmmmm, yourself, Kate! Back then 5'6" was considered tall. Therefore, If they ran across someone 7'6" tall, I can see that they might call or consider that person to be a giant. Even today, there are people over 8' due to some medical condition. And, they might be considered or called gigantic.
Now, Glass, that post of Florida is really stretching reason, don't you think? LOL
i hope the country recovers from this election quicker than we did from the 'caines
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
no, i don't think it's that much of a stretch, as i recall, Frances was the size of Texas too......LOLi hope the country recovers from this election quicker than we did from the 'caines
Probably happen the very next day after the election (the market), providing there are no problems like last time in Florida.
Brain freeze! Tree of Knowledge!
I believe that homosexuals should get the respect of a mariage and the benefits But not the word marriage. Allthough thinking on it, poligimists (mispelled i know), shouldn't be able to call it marriage.
Traditionally marriage is a union between a man and a woman, when homosexuals use the term to many it says that the union is a joke.
There is a thirteen-year-old boy in America who walks to school this morning. He believes he is a pervert because he is sexually attracted to a boy in his class. Undressing in the locker room for gym, he is terrified he will get an erection or his friends will notice him staring at the other boys and call him a homo.
At night, he lies in bed. He promised God he wouldn't look at pictures of naked men having sex anymore, but he did it again after school. As a punishment, he pinches his ***** between his fingernails until he breaks the skin. He believes the pain is good for him. It is only a fraction of the pain that sinners feel when they go to hell, or what Jesus must have felt on the cross.
He sits in church on Sunday and knows the priest is referring to him: deviants whose unnatural desire will keep them from entering the Kingdom of God. When he takes communion, he prays that God will heal the sickness inside him and make him clean and perfect like his Son. He promises to try even harder not to sin than he's ever tried before.
After failing again, he decides he has no more tries left in him. He cannot stop the thoughts or change them. He believes God is disgusted with him and that He refuses to help. He stands looking in the bathroom mirror and wonders if he is what a homo looks like. He thinks of his youngest sister coming home from kindergarten with school papers tucked under her arm, and wonders if the boy from his class is in bed sleeping. He lifts his father's gun and shoots himself in the head.
On January 2, 1997, 14-year-old Robbie Kirkland committed suicide after struggling with his homosexuality for four years. His mother said at the time, "Our family loved, supported and accepted him but could not protect him from the rejection and harassment he experienced at his Catholic schools." On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, took a fatal overdose after being hospitalized for depression. He'd been assaulted by a group of boys in his community because of his sexual orientation. Jacob Lawrence Orosco, 17, hanged himself on September 3, 1997, in his mother's home. When Jacob and nine of his friends tried to form a Gay/Straight student alliance at his school, a group of students at a nearby high school formed SAFE-Students against Fags Everywhere.
Anna Wakefield, a lesbian in her 20's from Virginia, hanged herself on February 27, 1997, after being rejected and estranged from her family; Private First Class Barry Winchell, 21, of Kansas City, Missouri, was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat on July 5, 1999 after rumors that he was gay spread around the post; Steen Fenrich, 19, was killed and dismembered by his stepfather in a homophobic rage, his body found March 21, 2000; Juana Vega, 36, shot in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, November 11, 2001 by her girlfriend's brother, for "turning his sister gay"; Gwen Araujo, a 17-year-old transgender woman from Newark, California, savagely beaten to death on October 3, 2002 by a group of boys at a party; Sakia Gunn, 15, fatally stabbed at a bus stop in Newark, New Jersey, May 11, 2003 after her assailant was told she was a lesbian; Fred Martinez, Jr., a 16-year-old Native American high school student from Cortez, Colorado, found beaten to death, June 21, 2001, his skull crushed with a rock. His 19-year-old killer was heard to have said proudly, "I bug-smashed a fag."
A few days after Kerry's concession, Bill Clinton gave a speech at a conference of the Urban Land Institute in New York. The Daily News quoted him as saying that Kerry could have made more of an impact with small-town voters by emphasizing his opposition to gay marriage. "He said it once or twice, instead of 3,000 times, in rural communities. If we let people believe our party doesn't believe in faith and family, that's our fault." Clinton: our moral authority on marriage and sex. As a gay man in America, perhaps I am responsible for the unraveling of the moral fabric of this country, but I have never used a cigar in bed, and I absolutely draw the line at wearing a dress from the GAP.
America listens to its presidents, present and past. The president sets the tone for tolerance in the land. When a president proposes discriminatory legislation or supports it, however unlikely it may seem that it will be voted into law, the message he sends to the rest of the country is clear: these are the people you have my permission to harm. George W. Bush's proposed constitutional ban on same-sex marriage is more than just a vindictive president's desire to deprive gay men of bridal registry; it is the legislation of hate, and its direct consequence will be the sanctioned murder of America's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens.
I marvel at the vogue of hate today in this country; who you can freely hate these days and who you can't. You can hate women, and gays, and fat people. You can hate poor people, and the homeless. You can't, however, hate black people or Jews anymore, at least not on television or in print. (You can still hate blacks privately, but Jews are harder; some have blonde hair and it isn't easy to tell if they are in the room.)
Black and white Christians have been revitalized by the same-sex ban, agreeing to suspend their hatred for each other in favor of a combined, galvanized hatred for gays. The GOP hates us all year round, but Democrats are "holiday haters," reserving their hate for special occasions - like close elections. Holiday hate never counts as real hate, of course, it's just politics, like little white (water) lies, and promises (fingers crossed) to pass legislation protecting gays in the military once voted into office.
And finally, the passive-aggressive haters know a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage based on religious belief is wrong, not to mention unconstitutional, but since we are not "personally" affected by it, we’ve decided to watch from the sidelines. Newsflash: there are no sidelines in America anymore. Civil liberties in this country are an endangered species. We may not care that the Texas red wolf is almost extinct in North America, but, living in the same ecosystem, it might be worth noting, as we may be next.
Jesusland, can you honestly say, with all that is wrong in the world today, with millions of people infected with HIV and thousands of new infections each year, with record unemployment, families with no healthcare and billions spent on war, that the greatest moral challenge we face in America today is symbolized by a wedding cake figurine of two grooms?
Is homosexuality contagious or reaching epidemic proportions? How else can the sexuality of one section of the American population singly decide the outcome of an entire presidential election? Only one conclusion can be drawn: Gay people in the heartland are doing some serious ****ing. I only wish someone had let me in on it. I thought we were supporting Kerry by voting for him. If gay sex is really that powerful, screw the oil in Iraq, Halliburton should be hooking us up to generators.
Is homosexuality so irresistible that straight men and women are leaving their homes, mesmerized and in droves, to join the gay ranks? The few straight friends I tried to seduce in my post-coming-out insecurity remained politely, but resolutely, straight. To all those who tried to manipulate me into being heterosexual to further their agendas (my mother), I remained resolutely, sometimes impolitely, gay. One might conclude from this that people are what they say they are and we can all get on with things.
Not in Jesusland. Three little words, one tiny sentence, and the best friend's face closes forever, the child is lifted from the lap of the favorite aunt, a mother sends her son his baby pictures with a note saying she no longer has a child, a girl runs away from home to escape her parents' attempts to "beat the devil out of her", a boy is forced see a psychiatrist and take medication to fix his "problem", a transgender teen hangs herself to avoid being ridiculed at a school assembly the next day.
America: you do not have the right to throw your lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens in the garbage. You have a responsibility to protect us whether you like us or not. If you do not approve of gay marriage, do not attend gay weddings. It is not your prerogative to decide who is worthy of your care, or to deny protection to anyone. As American citizens our protection is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
We are in a holy war, a fundamentalist Christian jihad, where the possibility exists as never before that Jesusland will finally become Jesusworld. (I wonder what the rides will look like.) With a faith-based president who doesn't respect the Constitution as separate from his belief in God, there is no difference between extending democracy and extending Christianity. Once you free a citizen for elections, you have to free a soul for salvation.
Accosted by Christians on subway cars when I first came to New York City, I never ceased being amazed at the chutzpah of a stranger suddenly asking me about my relationship with God; not to mention being deeply insulted by the lack of subtlety that announced the intrusion. "That chocolate ice cream looks delicious; do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ?" I knew that no one would ever have the audacity to say to me, "Excuse me, Sir, how much money is in your bank account?" or "Pardon me for asking, how many times did you make love this week?" Yet somehow just anyone can demand to know on the spot what your relationship is with Jesus, which, if you have one, is arguably the most intimate relationship of them all. I admit it crossed my mind on more than one occasion to reply, "Why yes I do, actually, a pretty good one, and **** you for asking such a personal question."
The most exasperating religious experience ever may be the attempt to convince a born-again Christian that God will allow someone into heaven that isn't "saved" through Jesus Christ. After a brief exchange, I inform the stranger that while I was “saved”, or at least baptized as a child, and my grandfather was a minister of his own church, I have no intention of being part of a religion that doesn't accept me because of my sexuality. My inquisition on the A-train ends and my Jesus interrogator trots off to his next victim, reminding me that "we’re all sinners." He hasn't achieved a new convert, but he's watered that seed of insecurity in me that maybe homosexuality is evil, that gay people do end up in hell and because of what I am, God doesn't like me anymore. It's a child's fear, like dark closets and monsters under the bed, but it can rule a life and last a lifetime.
During the six months after college that I ran around cracking people over the head with my Bible, I remember the extraordinary relief that came from finally having the Answer to Everything. No longer circling endlessly on the parking ramp of life, I had finally found a space. Trying to forge a gay identity on my own was too rangy and uncertain, and if I didn't succeed, what could be more disheartening than failing at being a pervert? The world was much easier to understand with my new faith and broken down into two distinct groups; those who were wrong, and us. I did exactly what they told me to do: love God, accept Jesus, and, like courting Santa Claus, try not to be naughty and always be nice.
Because my homosexuality, however, is dictated not by fashion or trend, but biology and DNA, I couldn't warp or mutilate myself into the desired new result. My naughtiness eventually outweighed my niceness and I was in deep ****. I wasn't told to leave, exactly, but knew that if I wanted to, I could stick around for a sort of exalted pervert status; the old "God loves you, homosexual, because He loves us all - even child molesters, rapists, and serial killers" line that some Christians think is generous.
Certain minds are vulnerable to fundamentalist thinking. Closet gays, immigrants, poor blacks, rich white women with philandering husbands--it draws so many. It's not easy to talk about why fundamentalism is attractive, why a heart might crave it. There comes a time in a life when the world simply becomes too painful for nuance, when it's freezing out and you just want to come inside and have someone say, Relax, we'll take care of you; in fact, we've been waiting for you. Here is the rulebook, no need to ask any questions: just sign here.
There isn't an oppressed person alive who at one point or another hasn't felt the seductive gravity of capitulation. The decision to resist always means thrusting oneself into the vast, unknown and dangerous wilderness of truly being free. One is tormented, at the same time, by the grim suspicion that while a secure existence may never be found in self-determination, a designated place always awaits one who will succumb to the State.
The violence against gay people, religious, emotional, physical or political, has done what social violence is supposed to; it's driven us underground, afraid to demand our rights or protect them when they are threatened. One good, well-publicized, gay murder can do wonders. Those of us who aren't brutalized or obliterated in elaborate campaigns by strangers or our families, are perpetually trapped in nets of chronic shame; our internalized hatred simplifying the work of the bashers by beating them to it.
I was astonished the day I discovered that I was a gay-killer. Indignant over the nationally publicized murders of Matthew Shepard and Brandon Teena, I'd demand a stop to gay bashing, leaving the rally or dinner party for a bashing session of my own with unsafe sex, alcohol and drugs. I had to finally consider the idea that my self-destruction wasn't fabulous or gloriously tragic; it was predictable, and (this hurt the most) not very imaginative. I was complicit with the anti-gay agendas that were aimed at me with the precision of a sniper’s bullet; an accomplice to my own gay assassination. I made a decision that although I wouldn't be able to save every gay life, I could definitely save the one I'd been given. (I'm still saving it; the mistaken assumption being that you only have to save your life once.)
I was a thirteen-year-old boy in East Lansing, Michigan on his way to school in 1983, attracted to a boy in my class, and flooded with the shame and terror that I was gay. My father also kept a Smith & Wesson in his closet. I don't believe I would have used it on myself, but a gun in any house has an aura of potential, waiting for the fatal chemistry of an escalating argument or a very, very bad day. What I did have was a lesbian friend in high school, who, one could say, "died for my sins." She came out of the closet first and when I saw that the coast was clear, I came out after her.
She was humiliated daily by notes shoved in her locker or jokes made as she walked down the hallway. Girls came up to her in groups during lunch and asked, "Are you gay?" to which she replied, "Why, are you interested?" Leaving a gas station one night, a boy, spurned by her refusals, called her a dyke and punched her in the face. She didn't allow the violence to derail her. I don't think Jesusland would have approved of her - a sassy, courageous, I'm-scared-to-death-but-you'll-never-know- it, 17-year-old black lesbian - but Jesus himself might have.
If Jesus is with us, I think he stands beside the black man who faces the lynch mob, the midwife who is brought before the church for being a witch, the bewildered and naked prisoner cowering against his cell wall in Abu Ghraib, the transgender teenager who has decided to dress as herself, no matter what her parents or the kids at school do or say. Jesus stands with all of us, but He especially knows what it's like to be innocent, to be violated and murdered for telling the truth, to face a violent mob and be alone.
America. If only you would purify your hate. When we walk into someone's country and wish to take what they have, let's just take it. Why call it liberating the Iraqi people or Operation Iraqi Freedom? Call it stealing and steal it. If you want to kill someone, don't refer to pre-emptive strikes or wars on terror. Kill them.
And if you want to hate homosexuals, Jesusland, just hate us. But don’t call it a "moral" or "family" issue, or try to legislate it and say, “I still support civil unions." And for Christ's sake, please stop dragging Jesus into it. Hasn't that poor man been through enough? Whether we believe He was the Savior or not, I think we probably all agree that He was a pretty nice guy that loved all kinds of people and never meant harm to anyone.
If He were alive to see this land today, I don't think He'd claim it.
© Max Gordon
[This message has been edited by Allstocks (edited December 01, 2004).]