posted
As I have gradually began trading with more money, I have started to find it more difficult to get my sell orders filled. I rarely can get an AON sell order filled anymore. Is there any technique that you guys use to decide how much to put in to a stock? Not according to quality or prospects of stock, but according to ability to sell the amount you buy?
-------------------- Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice. Posts: 2945 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I tell you Tex my inability to sell the minute I wanted to has cost me a spit load of money, either trying to get out of a winner or loser. I used to think it was strictly because there where many sell orders ahead of mine but then it occurred to me that I never had this trouble when I was just trying to cash out $700 or so.
-------------------- Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice. Posts: 2945 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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When you put your sell order in are you using the all or none feature?
I know that I was trying to buy PTSH on Friday not a huge amount 80,000 shares at the ask of .0033. I put it in as an all or none order and it didn't fill. I left it there for hours and nothing. I went back in and changed so it could fill little by little. With in seconds it was filled and on one order not seperate orders. I'm not sure if that has any bearing on what you are asking but just in case.
Posts: 3255 | From: Los Angeles California | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
If I put a big chunk in I usually sell small chunks on the way up. But if a stock moves up or down fast enough it creates problems . I always preferr AON orders. If that fails I go the partial fill route. But while waiting for all of those partials to fill the bid/ask can change dramatically and many times I have to modify my order multiple times to get filled . It's chaos at times. I have lowered the amount I put in until I find a comfort zone or someone gives me some guidance. I'm not going to pretend this is a problem all the time, but when it happens it's a mess.
-------------------- Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice. Posts: 2945 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: Iwonder if some use a percenrage of volume formula.
I do. I've had the same problem you're having so I'm very cautious about buying stocks now. I buy nothing that doesn't average at least $10,000 a day in volume and if I buy a stock with only $10k in volume, then I buy no more than $1,000 of it.
You also have to be cautious about buying stocks that are in the middle of a buying (or selling) spree as well. I like to buy stocks that are being oversold because of panic sellers, but if you're not careful, you may see heavy volume on the day you're buying but extremely low volume on normal days which will make it hard to unload.
I also never use the all or nothing option with pennies. I've noticed the same thing others have noticed - the order sits without getting filled...
Posts: 42 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
It's just me- That was great insight. Exactly what I'm looking for. 10% of total volume based on average volume, not volume on that day. THanks for your help.
-------------------- Thanks Matto. Thanks Juice. Posts: 2945 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Tex...it would be nice to know... but i've had no problems with GTC orders. Now i'm curious of the priority that the orders get filled. Any insight would help tremendously
posted
Your broker has a lot to do with it. Good or bad. Example I set a sell on vcor the other day at .012 for 70000. I saw some action and canceled the order at noon and came back at 4:00 and they said it had filled at .019 for 70,000. Strange I should have called and ask about it but the next day it started to drop so no big deal. I your broker is a mm you only have to pay the bid and can sell at the ask. The only problem is the com. are crazy $100 a trade I know it sounds bad but when you but $1,000 of stock if the spread is 10% or even 5% you have saved yourself 100. I have not found one that will deal with me yet to small time but If I were buying like some of the high rollers around here I would. I have 3 brokers and would rank them accordingly tdwaterhouse, scottrade and I still use a lowtrade account. Once I was using lowtrades for 20 min. I have a market order and never got filled. That was back when everybody was trying the pump and dump.
-------------------- Amazing how much time we spend looking for the truth but never spend the time to get to the point. Posts: 1164 | From: KANSAS CITY | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Interesting, Double L. Totally agree about the broker having a lot to do with it.
Does anyone have experience with routing their orders direct to MM or SuperMM? Geez, I've had my arse handed to me trying to route on my own for pinks. Sometimes, I don't even get the 'guaranteed 5000' so I maybe had to share with someone else? I don't know. Commissions costed more than the stock value.
With pinks, I gave up and stay with good 'ol AUTO on a limit AON, and let my broker do the work. Does anyone provide info (paid or free) that shows more than the 'guaranteed minimum' on L2s?
posted
For the most part, I avoid AON because often, even if it sells or buys in pieces, most or all of the order will fill.
Just today, though, I did an AON on a stock I've been trying to sell for days (RKLC). For some wierd reason, volume has been abysmal and my sells were being filled $20.00 at a time--which means the commission was eating half my proceeds. I finally said "screw it", dropped the ask a little, and sold AON. Overall I lost a fair percentage on the stock, but I got out paying only one more commission.
-------------------- Me Trade Pretty One Day. Posts: 815 | From: NYC | Registered: May 2006
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Of course I pay attention to price but once I decide to buy I forget the price and decide how many shares do I want to buy.
I use a guideline of 10,000 shares for a penny movement, down or up, is one-hundred dollars, loss or profit.
I set a goal of how much profit I would like to make, how much I am willing to lose, then buy a number of shares which will accomplish my goal.
Rarely do I buy less than 5,000 shares of any stock. On the average, I buy 50,000 shares of a stock. I adjust those numbers according to how much risk I perceive. Total price is not a real factor.
I look at this from a perspective of how fast can I unload a certain number of shares. An oft problem is not being able to unload quickly once your target price is reached, or not unload quick enough to meet your stop loss.
Price, for me, is not as important as my target percentage profit and ability to unload a stock. I deal with percentage gain regardless of the amount of capital needed to attain that gain, within reason.
quote:Originally posted by Johnwayne: As I have gradually began trading with more money, I have started to find it more difficult to get my sell orders filled. I rarely can get an AON sell order filled anymore. Is there any technique that you guys use to decide how much to put in to a stock? Not according to quality or prospects of stock, but according to ability to sell the amount you buy?
A lot of that could also have to do with the liquidity of a stock. There has to be buyers for your sell order. And just like a house, if it's under priced it will sell in a heart beat... no different with stocks. Maybe as you've become a better trader you are pricing your departure better! Of course if you dump a lot of money into a stock where the interest then dries up, it can become very hard to unload as well. Many of the pennies are very lightly traded making it very difficult to get rid of when you want too. I avoid those kinds of plays. I would, as others have said, avoid using the AON orders, unless your broker charges for partial fills (most don't if it's the same day). That is more then likely your main problem getting filled!
Vagabond
-------------------- You are what you do, not what you say! Posts: 473 | From: Where ever the next train takes me! | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
from Purl's post... Rarely do I buy less than 5,000 shares of any stock. On the average, I buy 50,000 shares of a stock. I adjust those numbers according to how much risk I perceive. Total price is not a real factor.
Totally agree, Purl. Same here. Assuming you are referring to my post, I'll try to better explain my problem...
The 'guaranteed 5000' are the shares that the MM is supposedly 'standing ready to deliver' on that pps, on bid/ask. We all know that millions of shares can be 'standing ready' behind that '5000' placeholder, especially on heavy volume days.
So, when I go direct on pinks - 'buy 1M, limit, no conditions' - and the ask pps is my limit, I would expect to get at least the 'guaranteed 5000'. But this is not the case. Have you ever done that and come away with 215 shares? I have. That's what I call 'getting my arse handed back to me.' Not even a break in the volume occurs to explain that, and the MM stays ready.
Like I say, good 'ol AUTO/limit/AON, Day or GTC, is fine with me, and if I don't get filled, then fine. There's always another ride.
Can you make sense of this? I have other variations (of how my arse is passed around), but this one is most common on pinks.
posted
"I would expect to get at least the 'guaranteed 5000'. But this is not the case."
Partial fills, partial sells, happens all the time. This is very common.
A 'guaranteed' execution by a broker is almost always big board stocks above five dollars per share.
Read the MM Market Maker thread on this board.
Market Makers are crooks, all Market Makers. None follow the laws, none follow SEC rules, all work for crooked brokers. All brokers are crooks.
Those prices you see on web trading platforms or live feeds, half of those prices are fake. Maker Makers will enter a price and block without having any shares at all, on both the bid and ask side. Should an order come in at a Market Maker price, maybe he will borrow shares and fill or maybe he will simply ignore that order because his goal is to run prices up or down without ever executing orders until a set price goal is reached in the markets.
All Market Makers engage in Front Running, which is illegal. This involves receiving orders from customers then sitting on those orders until the Market Maker can make a profit.
An example, a sell order comes across his desk at .10 per share. A limit buy order comes across his desk at .20 per share. Instead of selling the .10 shares to his customer, at .10 per share, the Market Maker will buy the .10 shares then sell his shares to the .20 buy customer, for .20 per share, and clear .10 per share profit.
An entertaining activity is to watch Market Maker orders show up on the ticker, for zero shares; prices are moved up and down through ticker trades but volume is zero.
A guideline to use is assume all prices displayed by Market Makers are fake and Market Makers are out to screw you out of your money.
You can test part of this. File a complaint with your broker about orders not being filled. You will never hear back from them. If you persist on a response, you will be told something like,
posted
I'll try your test with the broker complaint on my next arse slam. A mediocre broker response to a complaint would help fill the documentation void. And yeah, fake blocks and 'between the tick' stuff is getting over-used lately.
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Vagabond
