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T e x
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but ya caint see it at "level 1," right? First ya gotta be able to see who's on bid & ask, yes?

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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will
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Yes.

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A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

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T e x
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I keep asking re this point cuz I swallowed the bit on that wifi play...worst dilution I've been in on...

thanks for the good info

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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will
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Tex, PLNI has free L2's on pinksheet.com, you could have seen it there. It will happen again and you'll have a ringside seat now.

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A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

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T e x
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agreed...but back then? didn't know what to look for...

All I knew of L2s was for sweatin' runners

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Ric
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Talk about a scam AMVS formally SSWH I guess seen how CMKX was able to con so many people they are switching from a Wheel producer to a mining company and going to change their symbol soon. After their last r/s they couldn't get anyone to buy anymore shares. The only money they were making was from selling stocks so they had to do something to get people to start buying shares again. It is hard to dump them on the market if no one will buy them.

So watch out for this scam. Might make a hype play at some point though when they con the next generation of people that see precious minerals making them rich from a poor penny stock.

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Invest with your brain not with your heart.

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will
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If you want some pretty good insights on how and what the MM's were doing with PLNI, go back to the thread and read StockHunter's post maybe back to November. He used to trade on the floor, I think he was a specialist on a bigger board, but read his posts, he's EXCELLENT.

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A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

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T e x
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ric, good hedzup

will, agreed re SH--told him so, too, on thread...
just to clarify: I know *what* they do, wanna get better at spottin' it...

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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will
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He explains it well, in a few of his posts. Take the time to read him, it is really worth it.

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A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

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T e x
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ok, will re-read...

check ya manana

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Ric:
Talk about a scam AMVS formally SSWH I guess seen how CMKX was able to con so many people they are switching from a Wheel producer to a mining company and going to change their symbol soon. After their last r/s they couldn't get anyone to buy anymore shares. The only money they were making was from selling stocks so they had to do something to get people to start buying shares again. It is hard to dump them on the market if no one will buy them.
*bump for posterity*
So watch out for this scam. Might make a hype play at some point though when they con the next generation of people that see precious minerals making them rich from a poor penny stock.



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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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bill1352
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on L1's with microcap you can watch as the trades come in. when mm's are controling the pps you'll see a pattern of just enough sells coming in to match any buys thus holding the pps steady. i dont remember seeing them try & drop a pps but they do try & control big runs knowing that the next day most of everything bought today will be sold tomorrow.

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Thorn
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NSS or not, CMKX definately was not above board with the stockholders. There's simply no evidence that they were. (It's an Enron thing; either they were lying or they are incompetent...or both).

However, I find it hard to believe that greedy people would not take advantage of the system.

(Maybe by putting in the word "extensive" they figure they've pulled the wool over our eyes.)

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May your trading build your character as well as your portfolio.

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doubledee
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to Will,Bill & Ric.sure there are crooked CEO's but that's peanuts compared to the NSS being perpertrated by wall st.Here are my main points 1.you want facts.for starters go to Dr.patrick byrne's 4 part stunning video/discussion on line on FTD,s(fail to deliver).facts,facts & more facts.Incidentally this CEO can't find out who sold all these shares in his own Co.,because the DTCC will not tell him.Shares that don't exist that is,you know the counterfeit ones used to drive the share price down artificially.As in ILLEGAL. 2.don't be afraid try actually reading some of the stuff put out by dave patch,mark faulk,bob o'brien et al,at the very least you will have studied both sides of the argument and can speak with authority on the subject. 3.heres a couple of samplers of what people are saying "illegal naked short selling,according to Robert Shapiro, a former under secreary of commerce,has cost investors $100 billion and driven 1000 companies into the ground" from TIME magazine expose on NSS.(don't know how this got past the wall st mafia seeing as they own the mainstream media. "continued abusive short-selling practices pose strong potential for a systemic Wall st meltdown that will undermine our capital system and our economic strength". the Christian Financial Radio Network(cfrn.net). Or how about Rod Young CEO of EAGLETECH.remember them?.only today published a wonderful highly lucid 18 point(facts that is)account of why his company went belly up and the involvement of the SEC in this crime.(yes the same people who are supposed to be regulating the industry and looking after investors interest) 4.my only interst is getting to the truth and yes i get emotional.i happen to think that the continued shafting of the middle classes by the super rich with the possibility of a meltdown is a big deal.do not underestimate the size of this problem.If i happen to tread on a few toes in this process too bad,you started this thread .Asmy dear mom used to say "if you live in a glasshouse you shouldn't throw stones".
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OILDOG
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This is an excellent thread and topic! Answered question I had about PBLS's behavior a couple weeks ago. I'm soaking this wisdom up, you boys need to do this more often here. [Big Grin] Guess L2's have some use besides bravo sierra after all! MM's can & do put anything they want up for all to see. But trades as you describe would be hard to hide. Ric, are the articles you wrote still available and where? tnx in advance.

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The Bigfoot
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Limey,

I don't think anyone here is saying that NSS doesn't happen. And I think most would agree with you that the rich take advantage of the middle to get richer. (We are all trying to join that society however so I'm sure there is some ironic hypocrisy in there somewhere.) [Smile]

What Ric and Company are saying IMO is that for every sucker who gets shafted by the rich in a NS scam, 10 poor suckers are getting shafted by the rich (ie CEO's) with dilution and other less than honorable actions that companies can legally perform as pinks.

You aren't getting fought here. NS is a problem. But there are so many bigger sharks swimming in these waters it gets frustrating to keep hearing NS when quite often there are other events that are more immediately causing the problems that are being complained about.

You would do well to listen hard to people like Tex, Ric, and Will even if you don't like what they are saying. It is a rare person that looks past the surface of an issue to see "under the hood." But that's the only way to really understand the engine that you want to take you from point A to point B.

Ric,

Good call on AMVS. I just laughed when I saw that PR. They have no cash, no assets, no land, and NO EX·PE·RI·ENCE! People who pull crap like that should be banned from creating public companies.

The Bigfoot

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doubledee
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bigfoot,thanks for your comments.i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.as far as my position is concerned,i can say without contradiction that i have no desire to join the super rich. my goal is to be financially independent so i can be free of any constraining influences and do my bit to support the underdog(dont know if you use that term,it's not derogatory)wherever that might lead,but there is too much power in too few hands.i am not a communist either but things need to change & i am starting here,i expect a long &rocky road. the limeyone.
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The Bigfoot
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Good Luck, Limey

I wish you well on your quest!

The Foot

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No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.

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bill1352
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limey...naked shorting does hit a bunch of companies. my bro-in-law is in business with a company that ends up on the SHO list every other month. ZP is the symbol. they got off the OTC for the Pacific exchange. their pps was $1.50 on average 2 yrs ago, its .30 now, just hit .50 friday. they should be a lot higher in pps. the reason they get off the SHO list is they report everything. on the OTC & more so the pinks they are not honest in most cases..not all but in enough that naked shorting is probably not the real; problem.

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"keep your stick on the ice & your cup firmly in place"

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The Bigfoot
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So, here's a question.

A lot of folks talk about mirror trades when they are talking MM manipulation. What does that mean exactly? I get the idea that for every buy at the ask there is a sell at the bid which keeps the pps deflated...is that right?

Are we saying the MM's are selling to each other or themselves? And how can they do this without losing money? Seems to me that even if they are selling to each other they all have to take a loss in order to do this but I think I'm not getting something here. Anyone feel comfortable clarifying for me?

Thanks,

The Bigfoot

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runningscared
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This is a great thread.. and Bigfoot that's a great question.
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will
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Foot, I am not so sure exactly what you're asking, and I am not sure about mirror trades either.
I contend that MM's have complete control over the Bid / Ask process, and can bring a stock down, or let it run up at their discretion. It is easier for them to do that with stocks that have a greater O/S count. Volume I believe, is a key indicator, volume in a down market. They run a stock selling their inventories to investors hoping to catch the run, usually by then it is too late for anyone to really make money. After a run the begin collecting shares at lower prices and holding them in their inventory. They steadily decrease the PPS making it cheaper and cheaper to collect shares. Usually right before the stock runs again, you will see a deeper plunge and greatrer volume, the BIG sell off discourages the people that are still holding, and they finally sell, accounting for the increased volume. Shortly after that, (in most cases), they run it again selling at higher prices to a new generation of investors that are going to get in on the run.
I'm not sure if I articulated that properly, but having control over the Bid / Ask process gives them all the leverage they need. If they have that much power and control how often would it be necessary for them to revert to NSS, when price is at their discretion ?

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A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

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The Bigfoot
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Thank you Will.

That's a good insight into the methods of a MM.

I will make my question more generic. People talk about Mirror trading when talking about MM manipulation. What is mirror trading? Is it a defined term or just a name investors have given to an idea that may or may not actually happen?

The Bigfoot

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Highwaychild
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I've come to believe, that penny stocks are like going into a casino. You know the house odds are stacked against you, but it's fun to play...

It would be a nice start that if every company that was allowed to trade, HAD to file. Instead of a "We don't have to tell you anything, we're a pinksheet company" kind of shield they seem to be allowed to hide behind.

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7 of 9
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NSS.

I think mms use nss all the time.
Nasdaq says that 99% of dollar volume is OK but:

pinks have very little dollar volume, due to the pps

the SEC does not police pinks. they never say they do. they dont police the OBB either. we are on our own. go to the sec website and they will tell you: do not buy OTC stocks or any under $5. therefore, the sec doesnt know or care what happens on the pinks. how can the goverment police people that never file?

dilution: pinks dont file, so they dont file when they print 1B more shares, and sell them that same day in order to make payroll, which is only the CEO. i dont believe even that the x-fer agent knows the correct amount always. they just sell 1B shares and call the x-fer later, if ever.

bottom line: nss works and makes money so mms will do it if they can get away with it. my thesis is that they always do bcs. the sec doesnt care. pinkies are the scum of wall st.

7

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bill1352
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Bigfoot...in some cases mirror trades are just that & buy & sell was filled for the same share total. but if you watch a stock that say had great news early. it runs up a bit then you see a bunch of mirror trades & the run quits no matter how much over the normal daily volume it ends up i believe thats mm's selling back & forth to hold the pps.

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"keep your stick on the ice & your cup firmly in place"

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Great thread guys....

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is this the new cmkx board?
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Murnak
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SEC Approves NASD Request Requiring 5,600 Brokerage Firms To Disclose Monthly Total Short Interest For OTCBB and PINKSHEET Securities.


February 8, 2006 /M2 PRESSWIRE/ **********, www.********** announced today that The SEC News Digest reported approval of the NASD’s request to require all NASD member firms to disclose Total Short Interest positions on OTCBB and PINKSHEET securities. The following statement was published in the February 7, 2006 edition:


“The Commission approved a proposed rule change submitted by the National Association of Securities Dealers (SR-NASD-2005-112) regarding amendments to Rule 3360 to expand short interest reporting to OTC equity securities. Publication of the order is expected in the Federal Register during the week of February 6. (Rel. 34-53224)”


On September 20, 2005 the NASD filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission (“SEC”) a proposed rule change to amend Rule 3360 to expand short interest reporting requirements to over-the-counter equity securities. The term “OTC Equity Securities” shall mean any equity security that is not listed on The NASDAQ Stock Market or a national securities exchange. Each member firm shall maintain a record of total “short” positions in all customer and proprietary firm accounts and shall regularly report such information to NASD as of the close of the settlement date designated by NASD. Reports shall be received by NASD no later than the second business day after the reporting settlement date. The term “customer” also includes accounts of other broker-dealers held at each firm.

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