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Author Topic: The Greatest Depression
a surfer
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[url= http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/and-now-we're-headed-for-the-greatest-depre ssion-says-gerald-celente-535350.html?tickers=^dji,^gspc,tlt,tbt,edv,udn,tip&sec =topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=]http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/and-now-we' re-headed-for-the-greatest-depre ssion-says-gerald-celente-535350.html?tickers=^dji,^gspc,tlt,tbt,edv,udn,tip&sec =topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=[/url]

The worst is yet to come.

Save your money. Every dime. The silver ones would be preferred.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by a surfer:
[url= http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/and-now-we're-headed-for-the-greatest-depre ssion-says-gerald-celente-535350.html?tickers=^dji,^gspc,tlt,tbt,edv,udn,tip&sec =topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=]http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/and-now-we' re-headed-for-the-greatest-depre ssion-says-gerald-celente-535350.html?tickers=^dji,^gspc,tlt,tbt,edv,udn,tip&sec =topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=[/url]

The worst is yet to come.

Save your money. Every dime. The silver ones would be preferred.

No its not, they said if we passed the stimulus immediately that we would be saved from that. Dont you remember? Obama is President, and he is going to fix everything that Bush created, because everything that is bad...is the fault of GW Bush...because he personally signed off on everyones behavior.
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glassman
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cash, before you posted it seems quite obvious that you didn't even read or listen to the article.

because if you had, you'd hear that this guys basically saying Obama didn't do enough, and if he didn't do enough it is because he responded to the "rights" call for not doing anything. Whihc they even told Bush not do....

we wouldn't be headed to anything right now if Bush and Obama had listened to those fools.

most of what this guy says is true. the Govt is owned and has been owned by the big corporations for decades.

The crux of the problem, Celente argues, is that the middle class has been wiped out. America used to be a land of opportunity for all, where hard-working people could build their own small businesses in their own communities and live prosperous and fulfilling lives. But now a collusion of state and corporate interests that Celente describes as "fascism" have conspired to help only the biggest companies and the richest Americans. This has put a shocking amount of the country's wealth in the hands of a privileged few and left the rest of the country to subsist on chicken-feed wages and low job satisfaction as Wal-Mart "associates" -- or worse.

The answer, Celente says, is to bring back the laws that prevented huge companies from getting so big and powerful, and put some opportunity back in the hands of ordinary people.


big corps are sitting on more cash reserves than they ever have before...

the money is not doing anything. they are just waiting for customers, but there's no money for thier customers to spend cuz the big businesses have it all.... get it now?

in other words? this guy is calling for direct large scale wealth re-distribution.

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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Pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.

--------------------
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
cash, before you posted it seems quite obvious that you didn't even read or listen to the article.

because if you had, you'd hear that this guys basically saying Obama didn't do enough, and if he didn't do enough it is because he responded to the "rights" call for not doing anything. Whihc they even told Bush not do....

we wouldn't be headed to anything right now if Bush and Obama had listened to those fools.

most of what this guy says is true. the Govt is owned and has been owned by the big corporations for decades.

The crux of the problem, Celente argues, is that the middle class has been wiped out. America used to be a land of opportunity for all, where hard-working people could build their own small businesses in their own communities and live prosperous and fulfilling lives. But now a collusion of state and corporate interests that Celente describes as "fascism" have conspired to help only the biggest companies and the richest Americans. This has put a shocking amount of the country's wealth in the hands of a privileged few and left the rest of the country to subsist on chicken-feed wages and low job satisfaction as Wal-Mart "associates" -- or worse.

The answer, Celente says, is to bring back the laws that prevented huge companies from getting so big and powerful, and put some opportunity back in the hands of ordinary people.


big corps are sitting on more cash reserves than they ever have before...

the money is not doing anything. they are just waiting for customers, but there's no money for thier customers to spend cuz the big businesses have it all.... get it now?

in other words? this guy is calling for direct large scale wealth re-distribution.

I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.
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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.
I too...would love to hear you explain your theory and how that would of helped the middle class...

--------------------
***********************

It's all in the timing...

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glassman
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I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.
Well if you want re-distribution BK would break up these huge companies and smaller companies would emerge to fill the gaps.

Money doesn't disappear in an economy, it finds it's way to those who want it the most.

Right now the government is pulling all the strings and until businesses understand what the playing field is gonna look like,their holding cash and waiting for Washington to get it's act together.

The economy grew in the Clinton years because business was confident that the rules weren't gonna change once a week.

The best thing for us now is to have the congress change hands and have some balance in power. Obama got what he wanted from the Dem controlled congress, but the embalance has lead to stagnation.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.
I too...would love to hear you explain your theory and how that would of helped the middle class...
Do you believe the bail outs helped the middle class? All that happened is the same guys that played poker and lost, got their losses covered by the middle class.

Without accountablity these guys will be right back doing their stuff. I bet the folks at Lehman Bros. who lost their fortunes because they didn't get bailed out will be a little more prudent in their next investment.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

I was never taught that in business making bad decisions was gonna be rewarded.
Allowing the government to step in and back all this bad business has just set us up for more failure.

It has established a mind set in the next generation that they are somehow not responsible for their decisions, the government will take care of everything.

Can't pay your credit cards...no problem the government bailed out big business and now it's your turn...I hear it on the radio every day.

This is socialism my friends...it doesn't happen overnight but don't be mistaken it is comming.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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All that happened is the same guys that played poker and lost, got their losses covered by the middle class.

OK, here's my argument against that.

the top 1% pay 36.9% of federal tax (wealth 32.7%), the top 5% pay 57.1% (wealth 57.2%), top 10% pay 68% (wealth 69.8%), and the bottom 50% pay 3.3% (wealth 2.8%).


it's the same argument some people use to complain about the "poor" not payng taxes and getting subsidies...

the wealthy pay most of the taxes, and them getting bailed out is what they pay for.

as for this idea that "they" are waiting for stability?

that's hokus pokus... there si no such thing as stability or security, and what they are waiting for is for cosnumers to get relaoded so they can go shopping again.. only that's not gonna happen anytime soon because they just don't have the moeny.

they borrowed against their homes and lost, they are out of work, and thier paychecks don't go up on average when they do work.

get used to this. it's not changing any time soon....

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.
Right now the government is pulling all the strings and until businesses understand what the playing field is gonna look like,their holding cash and waiting for Washington to get it's act together.


That is where we disagree....
Corporations OWN the government and corporations are the ones pulling all the strings, including the governments...

THE reason that we are not recovering from this recession/depression is because corporations have shipped all of our good paying jobs to other countries for cheap labor and to increase their profit margins...the problem with that short term thinking is, the middle class in THIS country now don't have the jobs/money to buy their goods and/or services...

--------------------
***********************

It's all in the timing...

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pagan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
If they would of let the BK system deal with these troubled companies the re distribution of wealth you talk about would have taken place.

Can you elaborate on that at all? Especially as to how it would have redistributed the wealth.
Right now the government is pulling all the strings and until businesses understand what the playing field is gonna look like,their holding cash and waiting for Washington to get it's act together.


That is where we disagree....
Corporations OWN the government and corporations are the ones pulling all the strings, including the governments...

THE reason that we are not recovering from this recession/depression is because corporations have shipped all of our good paying jobs to other countries for cheap labor and to increase their profit margins...the problem with that short term thinking is, the middle class in THIS country now don't have the jobs/money to buy their goods and/or services...

What we have to address today in the US is why are these companies shipping jobs overseas.

Obviously cheap labor and profits would seem to be the reason.

If cheap labor is the reason then why are we not able to compete?

Has our government ever asked companies what would make it worthwhile for them to manufacture here. I think it goes way beyond cheap labor.

Regulation and taxation are also a huge reason why companies flee overseas, companies doing business in the US don't have a level playing field, it's almost impossible to manufacture a product in the US and compete globally.

Bottom line is maybe Americans are going to have to work for less and be more responsible for their financial well being.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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Regulation and taxation are also a huge reason why companies flee overseas, companies doing business in the US don't have a level playing field, it's almost impossible to manufacture a product in the US and compete globally.

the Chinese charge (slightly) more tax than we do...

everybody in business knows that our actual business tax rates are some of the lowest in the world, even if out marginal rates (advertised) are high.

as to regulation? i agree we have too many regualtions and too many overlapping Govt agencies...

we could start by getting rid of the overlap...

as to regulation?

lead paint is way cheap... it makes toys more profitable... you want to get rid of regulations like banning lead paint? or paint with cadmium?

face it, regulations only cut into profit that hurts other people. sure there are SOME crazy regulations.. but for every one i can show you a profit motive that was cutoff by it...

the Chinese had to shut down factories all around Beijing for weeks before the Olympics to be able to have air quality still not as good as our worst here, is that what you want?

it's about quality of life, if we insist they match ours, then the competition is fair, if they refuse to accept ours? then charge am import tax that is enough to make it fair...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
All that happened is the same guys that played poker and lost, got their losses covered by the middle class.

OK, here's my argument against that.

the top 1% pay 36.9% of federal tax (wealth 32.7%), the top 5% pay 57.1% (wealth 57.2%), top 10% pay 68% (wealth 69.8%), and the bottom 50% pay 3.3% (wealth 2.8%).


it's the same argument some people use to complain about the "poor" not payng taxes and getting subsidies...

the wealthy pay most of the taxes, and them getting bailed out is what they pay for.

as for this idea that "they" are waiting for stability?

that's hokus pokus... there si no such thing as stability or security, and what they are waiting for is for cosnumers to get relaoded so they can go shopping again.. only that's not gonna happen anytime soon because they just don't have the moeny.

they borrowed against their homes and lost, they are out of work, and thier paychecks don't go up on average when they do work.

get used to this. it's not changing any time soon....

I've heard the argument that the wealthy pay most of the taxes....but I believe that is federal income taxes, most social programs are funded by the taxes we all pay. Every paycheck has 7.5% withdrawn and the middle class being the biggest group probably pays the biggest share.

Taxes on goods and services also amount to a large sum and again because of the size of the middle class more is probably collected as a group.

Your argument that because rich people pay more taxes that gives them the right to bail outs is just another entitlement fantasy. You make BAD decsions you lose period.

Capitalism is a beautiful thing as long as inept government lets it operate. Under a capitalist system, failure voids will be filled by companies that are run better and more effecently. Intrusive government, bailing out the mismanaged only prolongs any recovery.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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Your argument that because rich people pay more taxes that gives them the right to bail outs is just another entitlement fantasy. You make BAD decsions you lose period.

they didn't just make bad decisions tho...

this collapse was created by Wall St. it didn't just happen by accident

they are the ones that created the CDses and they prolly should have failed. but 25% real unemployment has been nearly reached and it wasn't the employees that did it. It was done by the very top levels of management who don't give damn cuz they get paid enough every year to make for a secure retirement....

as to the total taxes collected? yes it drops down when you add the SS and few others to it, but it doesn't come down much...

it really is true that 70% of the weatlh is in 10% of the peoples hands, and that wealth number is going up...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Regulation and taxation are also a huge reason why companies flee overseas, companies doing business in the US don't have a level playing field, it's almost impossible to manufacture a product in the US and compete globally.

the Chinese charge (slightly) more tax than we do...

everybody in business knows that our actual business tax rates are some of the lowest in the world, even if out marginal rates (advertised) are high.

as to regulation? i agree we have too many regualtions and too many overlapping Govt agencies...

we could start by getting rid of the overlap...

as to regulation?

lead paint is way cheap... it makes toys more profitable... you want to get rid of regulations like banning lead paint? or paint with cadmium?

face it, regulations only cut into profit that hurts other people. sure there are SOME crazy regulations.. but for every one i can show you a profit motive that was cutoff by it...

the Chinese had to shut down factories all around Beijing for weeks before the Olympics to be able to have air quality still not as good as our worst here, is that what you want?

it's about quality of life, if we insist they match ours, then the competition is fair, if they refuse to accept ours? then charge am import tax that is enough to make it fair...

Glass , Using lead paint and other such products is a non argument since it's not something we allow as a product. The chinese are not competing against a product made in the US by making with lead paint.

The environmental issue is probably our largest reason companies go overseas.

Energy is probably the next big financial boom industry. Our government talks about clean energy but never does anything to really promote it.

We spend trillions on give aways, why not make the US the hub center for alternate/clean energy.
Tax breaks, not increased taxes is the way to make the argument.
All our government has done and I have to put this on Obama is scare the heck out of everyone by laying out a plan that increases the cost of energy.

Lets be the country that develops and makes the next wave of energy effecient products.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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why not make the US the hub center for alternate/clean energy.

i been arguing that point for years, but the oil co's don't want that Lock...

We need to spend alotof money on that research, but it's hard to get private moeny to take that kind of risk on such alrge scale...

T Boone Pickens got a taste of how bad "they " can be... he couldn't get the land he needed to put in power transmission lines...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Your argument that because rich people pay more taxes that gives them the right to bail outs is just another entitlement fantasy. You make BAD decsions you lose period.

they didn't just make bad decisions tho...

this collapse was created by Wall St. it didn't just happen by accident

they are the ones that created the CDses and they prolly should have failed. but 25% real unemployment has been nearly reached and it wasn't the employees that did it. It was done by the very top levels of management who don't give damn cuz they get paid enough every year to make for a secure retirement....

as to the total taxes collected? yes it drops down when you add the SS and few others to it, but it doesn't come down much...

it really is true that 70% of the weatlh is in 10% of the peoples hands, and that wealth number is going up...

I agree that the trigger that caused the collapse
was wall street, but their products were the direct result of government interference in the housing markets. The government incouraging Banks (sometimes insisting)to loan money to non-qualified applicants is the root of the problem.

Ok 70% of the wealth was protected and made sure it stayed there too. That's what the bailouts were all about.

I'm not saying the government should not of gotten involved in the financial crisis, it obviously had too.
My argument is that those responsible should of had a serious financial stake in the collapse and all I saw was a free ride.

We have rules and regualations in place that have to be followed or else we dont' have a system. The government could of come in and delt with banks the same way as always.

What happened was a plan thrown together over about a weeks timeframe that disreguarded all the rules and has caused such doubt in business decisions that I feel a recovery is years away.

It's not until businesses know what the real game plan is that we will have any real growth, that is if private employment is our future, sometimes I wonder.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
why not make the US the hub center for alternate/clean energy.

i been arguing that point for years, but the oil co's don't want that Lock...

We need to spend alotof money on that research, but it's hard to get private moeny to take that kind of risk on such alrge scale...

T Boone Pickens got a taste of how bad "they " can be... he couldn't get the land he needed to put in power transmission lines...

Your correct the government will have to step up and bear the brunt of the upstart costs. I'm not a big government fan as you know but this is something I want my government involved in.

The only problem I have with the government involvement is the diversion of money from the project.

I wasn't a big fan of Pickens project, I'd rather see a solar or tidal source.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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but their products were the direct result of government interference in the housing markets. The government incouraging Banks (sometimes insisting)to loan money to non-qualified applicants is the root of the problem.


i know that alot of people esp. Republicans like to say that.

the problem is that its just not the truth...

the derivatives market is how the swindlers pulle dit off..

they sold alot of "bad" mortgages and then they "insured" the mortgages with CDSes... the mortgage brokers KNEW they were writing bad loans when they did it... but htey get paid up front, not ont he back side... [Wink]

it is true that Bush and Clinotn and many politicians on both sided encouraged the issuing of bad loans too.. but private insutry wrote every single one of them and they did it for profit...

meanwhile? Derivatives (CDSes) were legally banned from regulation by two laws,written by the GOP run Congress and signed by Bill Clinton...

the CDSes are what allowed the lenders to go so crazy witht hemoney... they liked getting th efees with the new loans, but they sold the risk off to other parties and basically lied about how risky they were..

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

I was never taught that in business making bad decisions was gonna be rewarded.
Allowing the government to step in and back all this bad business has just set us up for more failure.

It has established a mind set in the next generation that they are somehow not responsible for their decisions, the government will take care of everything.

Can't pay your credit cards...no problem the government bailed out big business and now it's your turn...I hear it on the radio every day.

This is socialism my friends...it doesn't happen overnight but don't be mistaken it is comming.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

Yes, we do...even at this remove, the actual rate is much nearer 20% than it is the reported, "official" rate around 10%.

The *idea* of BK courts is to give folks a second chance. The practicality is to let credit card companies have one last shot at phucking people who got tricked into their stupid business model.

Don't like that? Try to get a mod of your primary residence in BK--can't be done.

But the well off can get mods on second homes, yachts, snowmobiles, etc.

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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glassman
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he's correct Lock, the laws really are written by the lobbyist.

they write the laws to give them an edge, they donate funds to BOTH sides of the political fence so that no matter who wins? they get the seat...

the politicians are merely brokers of power...

it's really been this way since day one in the US, there's been times when the lobbyists had less influence, and there's time when the lobbyists did really good things for the whole country, but i don't think there's a time when they had more overall negative influence than they have had in the last few decades..

all these dumb regulations? if you look carefully? you will find that they favor somebody. Mostly the ones with alot of cash already.... they also tend to favor lawyers.

one of my "favorite people in US history" is Tom Edison, when you look into his influence peddling? you get a real good picture of what it takes to succeed BIG in the US... He was really good at whatever he put his mind to, including political influence

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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let's look at some history in congress here:


1999:

The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLB), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, (Pub.L. 106-102, 113 Stat. 1338, enacted November 12, 1999) is an act of the 106th United States Congress (1999-2001) signed into law by President Bill Clinton which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, opening up the market among banking companies, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass-Steagall Act prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company.

2000:
The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (CFMA) is United States federal legislation that clarified most over-the-counter derivatives (“OTC derivatives”) transactions between “sophisticated parties” would not be regulated as “futures” under the Commodity Exchange Act (CEA) or as “securities” under the federal securities laws. Instead, the major dealers of those products (banks and securities firms) would continue to have their dealings in OTC derivatives supervised by their federal regulators under general “safety and soundness” standards. “Functional regulation” of derivatives products by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) was rejected for continued “entity-based supervision of OTC derivatives dealers.”[1]

2005:
The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (BAPCPA) (Pub.L. 109-8, 119 Stat. 23, enacted April 20, 2005), was a law enacting several significant changes to the U.S. Bankruptcy Code. It was passed by the 109th United States Congress on April 14, 2005 and signed into law by President George W. Bush on April 20, 2005. Most provisions of the act apply to cases filed on or after October 17, 2005. Referred to colloquially as the "New Bankruptcy Law", the Act of Congress attempts to, among other things, make it more difficult for some consumers to file bankruptcy under Chapter 7; some of these consumers may instead utilize Chapter 13. Voting record of S. 256 [1].



every one of these laws "favored" big business, yet the economy failed miserably soon after these were all signed...

it's amazing to me that more peopl don't see the pattern....

our economy (the middle class part) is just a sponge to these people, they let it fill up then they squeeze it out...

this time? they overdid it, and there's not much left to mop up and there won't be for quite some time...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

I was never taught that in business making bad decisions was gonna be rewarded.
Allowing the government to step in and back all this bad business has just set us up for more failure.

It has established a mind set in the next generation that they are somehow not responsible for their decisions, the government will take care of everything.

Can't pay your credit cards...no problem the government bailed out big business and now it's your turn...I hear it on the radio every day.

This is socialism my friends...it doesn't happen overnight but don't be mistaken it is comming.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

Yes, we do...even at this remove, the actual rate is much nearer 20% than it is the reported, "official" rate around 10%.

The *idea* of BK courts is to give folks a second chance. The practicality is to let credit card companies have one last shot at phucking people who got tricked into their stupid business model.

Don't like that? Try to get a mod of your primary residence in BK--can't be done.

But the well off can get mods on second homes, yachts, snowmobiles, etc.

What exactly is it that you think the bailouts did?
All they did was allow big risk takers to recoup their loses on bad bets.
The government could of let these companies go B/K and still supported the economy. By letting the companies go B/K the risk takers would have gotten burned.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
but their products were the direct result of government interference in the housing markets. The government incouraging Banks (sometimes insisting)to loan money to non-qualified applicants is the root of the problem.


i know that alot of people esp. Republicans like to say that.

the problem is that its just not the truth...

the derivatives market is how the swindlers pulle dit off..

they sold alot of "bad" mortgages and then they "insured" the mortgages with CDSes... the mortgage brokers KNEW they were writing bad loans when they did it... but htey get paid up front, not ont he back side... [Wink]

it is true that Bush and Clinotn and many politicians on both sided encouraged the issuing of bad loans too.. but private insutry wrote every single one of them and they did it for profit...

meanwhile? Derivatives (CDSes) were legally banned from regulation by two laws,written by the GOP run Congress and signed by Bill Clinton...

the CDSes are what allowed the lenders to go so crazy witht hemoney... they liked getting th efees with the new loans, but they sold the risk off to other parties and basically lied about how risky they were..

I under stand how the dirivatives where the nail in the coffin but this all started by relaxing mortgage requirements so those with shaky credit could enter the housing market. It all started around 1978 and with it came the housing boom.

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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it's not that simple Lock. China is sitting on over 2 trillion in cash reserves, mostly US dollars... they would have gone on a shopping spree...

i will grant you that bailing out these co's sux. They deserve to fail, but it would have taken out the entire economy in one year... They had five years of GDP tied up in this mess.... The govt had to stop the dominoes tipping asap.


when you begin to look at how the BK's would work? hte people that are actaully responsible would have gotten their huge paychecks and retired. Heck they make on average about 5 million per year. They don't even need thier last paychecks. The people that would be hurt are the mid and lower level peopel who live basically paycheck to paycheck. We save thier jobs so we would not have to pay their unemployment.

this is the only reason i am so against such huge short-term pyachecks to CEO nad other top level managemetn, we literally insulate them for the "real world" by rewarding them immedaitely and richly... Even if you give them restricted shares of stock? They sell them in futures market.... The market that the commodites and futures exchange was so dead set on not regualting...

we will recoup most of the money used in thebailout. As i recall? the bailouts were aproved with theintent of buying up bad mortgages and holding htem. but Paulson and Bush decided to buy prefered stock in the co's that held th ebad paper instead...

they needed the cash because they were using "funny" accounting to inflate their asset values.. once the funny accounting was outlawed with a law change? they were left unable to borrow against their assets to keep afloat....

not only that, but too many people had been doing this funny accounting and nobody trusted each other anymore, the bailed out co's could show that they had real $$ to borrow against with the bailouts...

i was becoming concerned in 04 and 05 when i read that the avg margin on the stock market was a few points above what it had been in '29. It was about 14X. During the crash? When i found that the investment banks were as high 50X on their margin to trade in CDSes and other mortgage instruments? I was flabbergaste. They were literlly lending moeny they didn't have at all. They were going to the Fed and gettingit and using the same colateral 50 times..... I've never ben able to find how much AIG actaully insured in the mortgage market, but if they had failed? It would not have just cost jobs thru out the economy, it would also have costed alot of (innocent) peoples life savings

i agree they need to be dissolved IN A TIMELY and SAFE (economically) manner, but now? The Govt cannot seem to get any laws passed toward that end. Heck the GOP even tried to block new financial regulation on them so they cannot do it again in 5 years...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

I was never taught that in business making bad decisions was gonna be rewarded.
Allowing the government to step in and back all this bad business has just set us up for more failure.

It has established a mind set in the next generation that they are somehow not responsible for their decisions, the government will take care of everything.

Can't pay your credit cards...no problem the government bailed out big business and now it's your turn...I hear it on the radio every day.

This is socialism my friends...it doesn't happen overnight but don't be mistaken it is comming.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

Yes, we do...even at this remove, the actual rate is much nearer 20% than it is the reported, "official" rate around 10%.

The *idea* of BK courts is to give folks a second chance. The practicality is to let credit card companies have one last shot at phucking people who got tricked into their stupid business model.

Don't like that? Try to get a mod of your primary residence in BK--can't be done.

But the well off can get mods on second homes, yachts, snowmobiles, etc.

What exactly is it that you think the bailouts did?
All they did was allow big risk takers to recoup their loses on bad bets.
The government could of let these companies go B/K and still supported the economy. By letting the companies go B/K the risk takers would have gotten burned.

What they did was avoid a bunch of soup lines and an *even worse* economy.

Sure, I could've stood it--but I don't have to leave my place.

My bigger problem would have been defending my place from hordes looking for food.

Believe me, I'd love see to see the crooks in jail. But that ain't gonna happen until campaign finance laws are drastically rewritten.

You on board for that?

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

Posts: 21062 | From: Fort Worth | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
I was being sarcastic glass, it wasnt a serious post.

sorry, it's hard to tell sometimes..

i am not a gloom-n-doom person. i don't see another depressin hapenning, but i do think we still have alot of tough times to get thru..

Obama? he's no superman, and in the end? he'll be happy to get his speaking engagemnets for 100grand awhack and up whehter he's a one or two tour Prez...

my biggest concern is how many people think that allowing the system to fail is going to help US in the long run... real unemployment above 25% is not something we can recover from, short of a WW2 like govt program in scale... we don't want that.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

I was never taught that in business making bad decisions was gonna be rewarded.
Allowing the government to step in and back all this bad business has just set us up for more failure.

It has established a mind set in the next generation that they are somehow not responsible for their decisions, the government will take care of everything.

Can't pay your credit cards...no problem the government bailed out big business and now it's your turn...I hear it on the radio every day.

This is socialism my friends...it doesn't happen overnight but don't be mistaken it is comming.

You don't know that allowing the system of business that we have in place would cause 25% unemployment. Why do we have B/K courts?

Yes, we do...even at this remove, the actual rate is much nearer 20% than it is the reported, "official" rate around 10%.

The *idea* of BK courts is to give folks a second chance. The practicality is to let credit card companies have one last shot at phucking people who got tricked into their stupid business model.

Don't like that? Try to get a mod of your primary residence in BK--can't be done.

But the well off can get mods on second homes, yachts, snowmobiles, etc.

What exactly is it that you think the bailouts did?
All they did was allow big risk takers to recoup their loses on bad bets.
The government could of let these companies go B/K and still supported the economy. By letting the companies go B/K the risk takers would have gotten burned.

What they did was avoid a bunch of soup lines and an *even worse* economy.

Sure, I could've stood it--but I don't have to leave my place.

My bigger problem would have been defending my place from hordes looking for food.

Believe me, I'd love see to see the crooks in jail. But that ain't gonna happen until campaign finance laws are drastically rewritten.

You on board for that?

Campaign laws and term limits

--------------------
Let's Go METS!!!

Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
T e x
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Good.

btw,

quote:
. . . a new Congressional Budget Office report said the spending had lowered the unemployment rate in the second quarter of the year, had led to the employment of 1.4 million to 3.3 million people and increased productivity by as much as 4.5 percent.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/us/politics/25boehner.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

Posts: 21062 | From: Fort Worth | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
glassman
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Campaign laws and term limits

supreme court says those are not constitutional, we need an amendment for them...

--------------------
Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
T e x
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Plutonomy

Geez, even Greenspan gets it:

quote:
"Our problem," Greenspan said, "is that we have a very distorted economy in the sense that there has been a significant recovery in a limited area of the economy amongst high-income individuals who have just had $800 billion added to their 401(k)s and are spending it. Large banks and large corporations, as everyone's pointing out, are in excellent shape."

"The rest of the economy, small business, small banks, and a very significant amount of the labor force, which is in tragic long-term unemployment, that is pulling the economy apart," noted Greenspan. "The average of those two is what we are looking at, but they are fundamentally two separate types of economy."

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/growth-leave-95-americans-behind/19591079/

--------------------
Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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CashCowMoo
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Anyone remember this? 6-17-10

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38654.html


Also:

Economy Caught in Depression, Not Recession: Rosenberg

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38831550

--------------------
It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Peaser
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Speaking of the greatest depression...

Are you all ready for it in the coming decade?

--------------------
Buy Low. Sell High.

Posts: 10755 | From: The Land Of The Giants | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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