posted
Ok, what is the deal with unions these days? Why do we still need them? When we used to hear about them growing up they were really important back in the day in factories and in mines for workers safety. I can see a coal miners union being somewhat necessary, but all I see them doing today is picketing, going on strike, demanding more, and getting special favors from the White House under Obama.
I have never worked for a union so its hard for me to relate to any issues. I heard that some auto factories in the south dont have unions and their productivity is higher. I think it was a Toyota plant. Americans making Toyotas. When I hear buy American, and then see made in Mexico labels on Ford vehicles I get confused. They say dont buy foreign, but then Toyotas are being made in Mississippi by Mississippians! Honda makes Accords in Ohio!! Ford built a new plant near Mexico city!
I heard something from a girl I used to run with. Her sister worked up at GM in Detroit. She said the workplace is so messed up. If a union employee shows up to work smelling like alcohol and the supervisor sends him home then the SUPERVISOR is actually in more heat and questioning than the employee!!
I just want to know when I see support these unions when they stop working and picket what good does it do my community. Do I support them, or do I just see them as another strike as usual.
Another question I have is why do they raise hell when a plant closes or a company goes out of business? They have to make layoffs because there is no money, so what is the confusion? No money, no payroll.
I can see if the top executives are hoarding money then that is wrong, but....it seems like they have their own race card types that they pull all the time.
So someone with some experience please shed some light!
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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The things I have heard about the GM plants is disturbing. It seems like employees can do just about anything and not get fired. If you want to fire an employee for misconduct its like walking through a minefield. Paying employees to do jobs that arent even necessary just so they can say they are employing people. Anyone else familiar with this?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.
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Toyota stopped building the plant here near Tupelo (Elvis birthplace) when the economy turned.
the state pumped a couple hundred million into the project Toyoatea was supposed to pit 1.3 billion.
The state pledged $296 million in incentives to land the Toyota factory. That is less than the $336 million in incentives that Mississippi provided to the Japanese automaker Nissan, which opened a factory in Canton, outside Jackson, in 2003. But it is more than the $133 million that Texas initially pledged to land a Toyota truck plant in San Antonio, which opened last year.
Governor Barbour said the company told state officials it did not want to get into a bidding war for the factory among competing states. He said employment at the plant eventually could double to 4,000 workers,
it has never been proven that the 4000 workers alone would bring enough back to teh state coffers to justify the aprox. 300 million th estate put up...
adding the ancillary jobs that it brings would most likely recoup the investment.
to date their is little news available about if/when the Toyota plant will be opened, i beleive they had pretty much finished it and were supposed to begin hiring and production this year.
I dunno about worker productivity. Hearing it and proving it are two different things.
i do not like the fact that my state caters to foreign car co's, i have not seen much in the way of benefit from it for me...
what i do know for fact is that the Nissan plant did'n bring Ms out of the bottom five for state income per capita... The lack of unions insures this will reamin true....
remeber that if you are in biz? the more money YOUR CUSTOMER HAS, the more you can make off 'em.
MS is a hard row to hoe when it comes to selling people luxury items like i produce.
we have plenty of very wealthy people and plenty of very poor people, it's th emiddle class we are lacking.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Toyota stopped building the plant here near Tupelo (Elvis birthplace) when the economy turned.
the state pumped a couple hundred million into the project Toyoatea was supposed to pit 1.3 billion.
The state pledged $296 million in incentives to land the Toyota factory. That is less than the $336 million in incentives that Mississippi provided to the Japanese automaker Nissan, which opened a factory in Canton, outside Jackson, in 2003. But it is more than the $133 million that Texas initially pledged to land a Toyota truck plant in San Antonio, which opened last year.
Governor Barbour said the company told state officials it did not want to get into a bidding war for the factory among competing states. He said employment at the plant eventually could double to 4,000 workers,
it has never been proven that the 4000 workers alone would bring enough back to teh state coffers to justify the aprox. 300 million th estate put up...
adding the ancillary jobs that it brings would most likely recoup the investment.
to date their is little news available about if/when the Toyota plant will be opened, i beleive they had pretty much finished it and were supposed to begin hiring and production this year.
I dunno about worker productivity. Hearing it and proving it are two different things.
i do not like the fact that my state caters to foreign car co's, i have not seen much in the way of benefit from it for me...
what i do know for fact is that the Nissan plant did'n bring Ms out of the bottom five for state income per capita... The lack of unions insures this will reamin true....
remeber that if you are in biz? the more money YOUR CUSTOMER HAS, the more you can make off 'em.
MS is a hard row to hoe when it comes to selling people luxury items like i produce.
we have plenty of very wealthy people and plenty of very poor people, it's th emiddle class we are lacking.
You know glass I have been to MS many a time! Did some catfishin out in some country ponds. It was in northern MS in a place called Mt. Pleasant.
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Northern Ms and Southern Ms both have relatively strong economies. We have some people so poor here in middle Ms that our avg household incomes are about half the nationwide average....
there's no jobs other than agriculture related and they's become so automated that the few who get jobs are all specialists and get paid well and deserve it..
the big AgriCorps are becoming the prime owners of the best agro land in the world tho....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Best arguement I've ever heard in favor of Unions was that in certian industries, (Boilermaker's Union for example), it allows the creation of, and access to, a skilled/certified labor pool that isn't otherwise available or difficult/time consuming to obtain under non-union circumstances.
However, CCM I agree with you for the most part. IMO, most Unions have outlived/outgrown their usefulness. Were I a business owner? I would want nothing to do with Unions. If I want to fire someone, I should be able to fire them on the spot instead of having to go talk to a Union lawyer first. If someone gets a raise, it should be because they earned it, not because the Union says they should have one.
If anything, all Unions should be optional, which as I understand, is not always the case. For example, in the California Teachers Union, you pay Union dues whether or not you are part of the Union. The logic, (as was explained to me), is that you if you are a teacher who is not part of a Union, you benefit still from Teachers Union's activities.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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how about we set a living wage requirement for work accomplished and REDUCE the regulations to go thru for firing people?
IMO living wages are not communism or socialism they are part of the golden rule.
i am the first to admit that alot of people work harder at not working than it takes to do the job right anyway. I saw so much of that in the Navy that became disgusted. I usually ended up just doing their work so it would be done...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
Well what do you mean by living wages? Cost of living raises?
IMO it is the same as taking an asprin to relieve a headache caused by a tumor. Sure, it might ease your pain for a little while, but it does nothing to treat the tumor. Get rid of inflation and make the gov stop treating our currency like a penny stock and you won't need "cost of living" raises.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.
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for starters? we have alot of jobs "nobody wants" so illegals get them.
there's no such thing as jobs nobody wants. there's jobs that don't pay enough so poor people are "imported" to fill them. if a job needs to be done? then the job should provide the person enough to live on.
i'm pretty much a freemarket person in this area, i don't like to see people breaking the law whether they are immigrants or fatcats that want cheap labor.
i'm all for making it easier to fire and hire people esp for the right reasons, which there are many.
nobody OWES anybody a living, they just owe a fair price for services rendered. i don't hire people and have no plans to any time soon. if i get large jobs that require help? i will contract with other skilled craftspersons that i trust to understand and meet my product standards.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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here's a good example of why central MS is so poor and businesses don't come to this area to set up shop...
the first time i was in Greenville? I had to call the hotel manager cuz i thought septic water was coming out of the shower. He said that was normal. I switched to the best hotel in town immediately and still got the brown water, and no i don't get this water in my tap cuz i don't live in Greenville.:
Sen. Wicker: Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project Set to Begin Solving the Brown Water Issue will Help Restore the City's Image, Draw Investors
GREENVILLE, MS—U.S. Senator Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) today announced an agreement has been reached between the City of Greenville and the Army Corps of Engineers to begin work on the Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project. Sen. Wicker was joined by Greenville Mayor Heather Hudson and representatives from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for the announcement at a press conference at City Hall.
“For too long, the brown water problem has harmed Greenville’s image. It has been a serious detriment to the city’s growth and prosperity and distracted potential investors and residents from all that this community has to offer. Greenville is one of Mississippi’s great cities, and I am certain it will grow and prosper into the future,” Wicker said.
“The Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project highlights the importance of collaboration between local and federal officials. It is exciting to see that collaborative effort take shape in a solution for Greenville’s 20-year struggle with brown water,” said Wicker.
The City of Greenville has attempted to find ways to alleviate the brown water issue for decades, exploring different ways to fund the major public works project.
In 2009, Sen. Wicker facilitated a meeting between the City of Greenville and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. As a result of that meeting, the City and the Corps are in the final stages of reaching an agreement to begin work on five of their nine well systems to address the cause of Greenville’s brown water. Through the Section 592 program, which was created by the Mississippi delegation, the Corps can undertake this kind water infrastructure project under a cost-sharing agreement with the City.
posted
unions = B.S. If I send one of my employees to a job that is in a union area, on a government contract, I have to pay them union wages, no if's and's or but's about it. Union wages for the drive ther (as a driver) union wage for the time they set up the steel (that's a different wage), union wage for the welding of the metal (different again), different wage for finishing the steel (different wage). Figure that sheyt out in a bid. Fook unions.
-------------------- A million unemployed comedians and you are trying to be funny, have you no shame?
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Ok...here is a question for all of you anti union folk posting here...
What do you consider a living wage?
Hint...a living wage means what is a wage that someone can realistically live on...i.e. house payment, transportation, food, health care, heat, electric, phone, insurance, taxes, etc. etc.
quote:Originally posted by CJim: unions = B.S. If I send one of my employees to a job that is in a union area, on a government contract, I have to pay them union wages, no if's and's or but's about it. Union wages for the drive ther (as a driver) union wage for the time they set up the steel (that's a different wage), union wage for the welding of the metal (different again), different wage for finishing the steel (different wage). Figure that sheyt out in a bid. Fook unions.
See....thats what I am talking about.Where does all this power and influence come from?
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: here's a good example of why central MS is so poor and businesses don't come to this area to set up shop...
the first time i was in Greenville? I had to call the hotel manager cuz i thought septic water was coming out of the shower. He said that was normal. I switched to the best hotel in town immediately and still got the brown water, and no i don't get this water in my tap cuz i don't live in Greenville.:
Sen. Wicker: Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project Set to Begin Solving the Brown Water Issue will Help Restore the City's Image, Draw Investors
GREENVILLE, MS—U.S. Senator Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) today announced an agreement has been reached between the City of Greenville and the Army Corps of Engineers to begin work on the Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project. Sen. Wicker was joined by Greenville Mayor Heather Hudson and representatives from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for the announcement at a press conference at City Hall.
“For too long, the brown water problem has harmed Greenville’s image. It has been a serious detriment to the city’s growth and prosperity and distracted potential investors and residents from all that this community has to offer. Greenville is one of Mississippi’s great cities, and I am certain it will grow and prosper into the future,” Wicker said.
“The Greenville Brown Water Cleanup Project highlights the importance of collaboration between local and federal officials. It is exciting to see that collaborative effort take shape in a solution for Greenville’s 20-year struggle with brown water,” said Wicker.
The City of Greenville has attempted to find ways to alleviate the brown water issue for decades, exploring different ways to fund the major public works project.
In 2009, Sen. Wicker facilitated a meeting between the City of Greenville and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. As a result of that meeting, the City and the Corps are in the final stages of reaching an agreement to begin work on five of their nine well systems to address the cause of Greenville’s brown water. Through the Section 592 program, which was created by the Mississippi delegation, the Corps can undertake this kind water infrastructure project under a cost-sharing agreement with the City.
quote:Originally posted by CJim: unions = B.S. If I send one of my employees to a job that is in a union area, on a government contract, I have to pay them union wages, no if's and's or but's about it. Union wages for the drive ther (as a driver) union wage for the time they set up the steel (that's a different wage), union wage for the welding of the metal (different again), different wage for finishing the steel (different wage). Figure that sheyt out in a bid. Fook unions.
See....thats what I am talking about.Where does all this power and influence come from?
The "power" comes from PEOPLE uniting together for a better way of life...
I have been a union member for well over 30 years and I can tell from the posts on this thread that most of you here are VERY misinformed about unions...
posted
buck, my g-dad was an antique importer who had at least a dozen employees ranging from sales clerks, dusters and polishers to cabinet makers and refinishers. He physically removed organisers. G-ma would shush him whenever he started talking about it. I dunno just how physical it got but i'm pretty sure there was blood. He was a micromanager to the nth degree, he didn't trust anybody else to make any decisions. I think many people do not realise that they can be much more profitable by delegating authority. Unions are a major delegation of authority and run properly are a huge releif to good management. Many peopel only hear about hte horro stories. What many people fail to relaise is that management is ultimatley responsible for all business decisions and want to blame poor management decisions on unions. GM didn't fail because of unions, they failed cuz oil went to 147 and they were making SUV instead of Focuses and Civics. BTW? I've had a Focus for a year now and we like it. We are getting better gas mileage (35-39mpg) than the Civic and when i go to pass from any speed? We pass.... doesn't Ford have unions too? hmmmmm...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Very funny the society we live in if working people band together to improve thier lives, working conditions, health ,and to have some more time with there famlies. They are called commies,lazy,union bums and most of society agrees even there brothers and sisters who are not organized have nothing good to say about unions.
This I have observed in my own life.
Let corporate America control your life with there lobbies and paid off politicians, so they can take the American dream away from you.Let corpate America deregulate saftey so minors can dye on the the job and the ceo can brag and swagger about saftey issues being in the way. Or they can ruin an entire coast line and the people that live and work in the area and depend on the waters for life and are ruined along with nature.
Then we see the people that are responsible trying to duck the issue before congress and point fingers at one another to try to shift the blame. How is society acting reacting to this attitude? Believe me not to good.They are considered shrewed businessmen instead of being tried as criminals
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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There are problems with Unions but I think it is funny how many people have swallowed the bull about union wages. Yer bustin a guys chops for making what?? 60...70k per year?
Know the value of quality and pay the good man his wage fer cripes sake.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.
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First let's hit on the living wage issue. Clarify something for me...living wage for who? Single guy just out of high school? A newly wed supporting himself and his wife? A middle age man with six kids to feed? The needs of all these workers are different. What determines why one may get more for their labor than the other?
Needs? Or...wait for it...experience/education?
Deadend, low paying jobs are not intended to be for family support. Brain dead 'crop picking' requires no more skill than it takes to bend over and extend one's hand. We allow produce farms to pay crap because...wait for it again...NO SKILL IS INVOLVED. It could be filled with the unemployed or uneducated instead of the illegals if we would stop open ended unemployment benefits and hold the farms to existing labor laws.
A living wage is based on one's needs. If one's education/experience isn't keeping pace with one's needs something needs to be done...and mandating the employers pay you more for no additional value is not it.
posted
if we would stop open ended unemployment benefits
we did that years ago
stop bringng in illegals and the farmers will have to pay more.
it's not about skill, it's about supply and demand, it always has been always will be.
blasting doesn't require much skill either, as a mtter of fact, the engineer tells the blasters how much to use and they just put it together.. but we pay pretty good for that and we always have.
here in MS a living wage is much less than it is in say San Francisco...
a living wage should be able to support one person living on thier own tho
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:a living wage should be able to support one person living on thier own tho
I'll buy that. Now to the next part of that though...
Is that living in a typical suburban house or a one bedroom apartment?
Is that eating out every night or as Dave puts it "beans and rice, rice and beans"?
Is that driving a current year model vehicle or a 7 year old 'beater'?
Is that Big Screen and Beer or 20" and Tang?
This is the issue I have with minimum wage laws and other living wage arguments. What is the minimum lifestyle that a citizen of our country 'deserves' simply by virtue of their drawing breath?
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: What is the minimum lifestyle that a citizen of our country 'deserves' simply by virtue of their drawing breath?
you call yourself a Christian?
what does a retarded quadraplegic deserve?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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i don't see poor people living beyond their means here.
sure they do it buying drugs whoring and pimping, but stealing? that ends pretty quick unless you are highly skilled, and mostly highly skilled theives live in the same neighborhoods as their doctors do...
here in my county? theres about 35 thousand people and the averagew household income is under 30,000. I'm rich here, but i ain't rich in the Was DC area.. There it's mostly two bread winners, daycare and a mortgage you can barely keep up with anyway... even with the crash it's ridiculous..
let's step back to my original statement, and say we make it easier to fire people for non-perfromance. or for any friggin reason you want if you sign the checks. If you do that? Then you'll eventually get people that are motivated at the price you want to offer...
as for a living wage? it's not possible to set it without looking at he area. homeownership is not requirement. A basic healthy diet can be cacklacked easily enough. health care? yep... phone and cable for TV and internet yep... a 40 inch TV is only about 600$ now, you can save for it if you can save for anything at all... If you cannot save ? Then you won't have retirement anyway.
all this other crap you think you know about? you don't.
we did away with non-working welfare payments in the 90's. the poor today work at Walmart and Popeyes and Mcd's and Boiger Kink. They also happen to be working wherever there's illegal employment going on. I bet there's some illegals that get paid above that tho.
my point is that there is no job that NEEDS to be done that isn't worth paying someone a living wage, that is not hard to understand is it?
this idea that being alive in the US doesn't give you basic rights goes agains the Founders principles. They didn't want poor people on th dole either, but in those days? There was not much money anyway so you worked to eat and live without much money, today everything is monetised. Ranch hnads? Farm help? They were fed and housed, even if they were slaves.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Brain dead 'crop picking' requires no more skill than it takes to bend over and extend one's hand. We allow produce farms to pay crap because...wait for it again...NO SKILL IS INVOLVED.
Ooops...
You wouldn't say that if it were your crop that needed harvesting. Some items require quite a bit of skill.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Fair warning, Glass, lol. Don't get started on that road unless you're willing to accept where it logically ends.
quote:i don't see poor people living beyond their means here.
Really? How hard are you looking? What about the rest of the country? I see idiots everywhere driving cars, SUV's or 'jacked up' trucks that are neck deep in debt. I see people losing housing all over the country right now because they bought more than they could sustain. I'm not talking about people that lost their jobs, they simply bought too much home on ARM's that they should have know they couldn't survive. I hear these 'settle your credit card debt for pennies on the dollar' commercials everywhere I go. And you don't see the 'poor' living beyond their means?
quote:a 40 inch TV is only about 600$ now, you can save for it if you can save for anything at all
Why save for it at all, Glass? Why purchase something that has no value except as an 'bread and circus' pacification device? Why not save for a college fund FOR YOURSELF? Why not save for a rainy day fund? Why not save for retirement (as you mentioned)?
quote:the poor today work at Walmart and Popeyes and Mcd's and Boiger Kink.
No, Glass, the uneducated and unskilled work at these places and are thus poor. Very important distinction for this thread.
quote:my point is that there is no job that NEEDS to be done that isn't worth paying someone a living wage, that is not hard to understand is it?
No, and I already agreed to it. Buy you failed to qualify it as I requested. Give me an example from your area if you don't want to generalize. What do you think should be the 'living wage' for your area?
quote:this idea that being alive in the US doesn't give you basic rights goes agains the Founders principles.
Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and the Bill of rights. Anything beyond that is one's own responsibility.
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: There are problems with Unions but I think it is funny how many people have swallowed the bull about union wages. Yer bustin a guys chops for making what?? 60...70k per year?
Know the value of quality and pay the good man his wage fer cripes sake.
We arent busting their chops for making that kind of money, its if they earned it or not. I say this because I hear numerous conflicting stories about unions and the jobs they do, also how the jobs get done.
I also dont like to see companies get muscled into hiring unions, and if they dont hire a union for a certain job they get picketed. I have seen it locally. Im just saying they need some really good PR time now.
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Fair warning, Glass, lol. Don't get started on that road unless you're willing to accept where it logically ends. [Smile]
i wouldn't ask if i didn't know where it ends for me. The real question is why you think people working to feed you and your kids are no better than a retarded paraplegic. I've never picked or grown at the business level but i garden and i know what's involved and it ain't easy and it ain't brainless.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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No, Glass, the uneducated and unskilled work at these places and are thus poor. Very important distinction for this thread.
this is important, maybe i can give you an epiphany.
There are people who just can't learn, there are peole who got the cord wrapped for a little while being born or were fed food from the garden that had too much arsenic or other stuff on it. People who burned pressure treated wood in the firpelace or the woodstove. Had the carpets the kids crawl on sprayed for fleas every year. There are people who get exposed to lead an mercuary and any ot he thousand other man-made or Godmade environmental hazard. If your parents are poor or ignorant? The likelihood of this happening to you increases exponentially. You will live as a ababy in a more dangerous environment. It will affect you more. They have a right to live with basic dignity. Jesus whether you beleive he is the Saviour or not taught that and that is why we still know of him today.
Even criminal behaviour can be attributed to lead exposure. And we who were alive when gasoline had
Tetra-ethyl lead, abbreviated TEL, is an organometallic compound with the formula (CH3CH2)4Pb. Once a common antiknock additive in gasoline (petrol), TEL usage was largely discontinued because of the toxicity of lead and its deleterious effect on catalytic converters. It is still used as an additive in aviation fuel for piston engine-powered aircraft.
we all got exposed to it by vapor to some degree or another. Washing your hands in that stuff? We used to do it. We used to pour it on the brush pile and light it up, that was a dose of vaporised lead to anybody standing close enough to smell it. Man that was fun. Poured it in yellowjacket holes and lit them up. It is only by the Grace of God that more of us didn't get dosed worse. Now, some people say well i got exposed plenty and it didn do nothing to me. And i can only shake my head. We are all different and we know this. The only time people seem to want to be like everybody else is when it makes some point about how better or tougher they are than everybody else.
People who cannot be tolerant of the failures of others often need some little lesson from God. Those lessons can be harsh and i don't wish them on anybody.
Back to Unions? People have the right to make and join unions as long as they are peaceful. It is assembly.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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just to show how cavalier "big business" can be?
and to make a point that we have have not come very far from this:
Today, over 50 to 70 percent of children living in the inner cities like New Orleans and Philadelphia have blood lead levels above the current guideline of 10 micrograms per deciliter. The toxic effects of lead include damage to the nervous system, learning impairments and behavioral problems. High lead levels in many urban areas are from leaded gasoline more than lead paint. (Mielke, 1999).
"Ethyl" brand leaded gasoline versus ethyl alcohol -- which was the best anti-knock additive for gasoline? Three grams of tetra ethyl lead and 15 percent ethyl alcohol both improved a fuel's power. One was cheap, but it was a well known poison.
When Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925, he was expressing an opinion that was widely shared in the automotive industry.
ethyl was also cellusoic then too.. Lamp fuels included all kinds of vegetable oils (castor, rapeseed, peanut); animal oils (especially whale oil and tallow from beef or pork,); refined turpentine from pine trees; and alcohols, especially wood alcohol (methanol or methyl alcohol) and grain alcohol (ethanol or ethyl alcohol). The most popular fuel in the U.S. before petroleum was a blend of alcohol and turpentine called "camphene" or simply "burning fluid."
Whale was the source of the finest and most expensive lamp oil until kersones came around in 1860. The general public first learned of TEL (tetra-ethyl lead) in late October,1924 when half a dozen workers went violently insane and then died, apparently from a mysterious poison they were making at a Standard oil refinery in New Jersey. When it became clear that this poison was being put into gasoline, and that other workers had died in similar refineries, a vehement public health controversy broke out. GM and Standard insisted that TEL was only dangerous in concentrated form at the refinery, not when diluted in gasoline. But public health scientists, especially Drs. Alice Hamilton of Harvard and Yandell Henderson of Yale, said it was an important public health question and insisted that safer alternatives should be used (as we will see below).
By the mid-1930s, the alliance between General Motors, DuPont Corp. and Standard Oil to produce Ethyl leaded gasoline succeeded beyond all expectations: 90 percent of all gasoline contained lead.
Direct comparison between leaded gasoline and alcohol blends proved so controversial in the 1920s and 1930s that government studies were kept quiet or not published. For instance, a Commerce Department report dated May 15, 1925 detailed dozens of instances of alcohol fuel use worldwide.115 The report was printed only five days before the Surgeon General's hearing on Ethyl leaded gasoline. Yet it was never mentioned in the news media of the time, or in extensive bibliographies on alcohol fuel by Iowa State University researchers compiled in the 1930s. Another instance of a "buried" government report was that of USDA and Navy engine tests, conducted at the engineering experiment station in Annapolis. Researchers found that Ethyl leaded gasoline and 20 percent ethyl alcohol blends in gasoline were almost exactly equivalent in terms of brake horsepower and useful compression ratios. The 1933 report was never published.116
there is much more where that came from. It's an instersting site and yes it is biased, but it has alot fact to support its biases.
so living in the city can be toxic? heck we knew that, but when you look at what we have done to kill bugs inour yards and even in our homes? the country can be even more of a deadly lottery.
it's just who we are we'll do better the more we learn. even if'n it's less profitable.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:i wouldn't ask if i didn't know where it ends for me.
Where does it end for you, Glass? Does it extend to imposing it on the rest of America whether they believe the same as you or not? THAT is where my question is being directed. I believe in the Red Letters, and I know what I practice based on them. But I also know that it isn't for me to impose those beliefs on others. How much you are willing to pay for produce (to allow the farmer to pay the pickers better) is one thing, MADATING that the farmer pay his help more which in turn makes everyone pay more to buy his crop is an entirely different thing.
Once again, a 'living wage' is not intended to be sufficient to support a family. Yet that is what minimum wage laws are trying to create, an unskilled labor job that will pay enough to support a family regardless of value to end paycheck ratio.
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What epiphany is this supposed to elicit, Glass? That different people have different levels of ability and talent? That individuals AREN'T created equal?
I hope you'll pardon me for missing the white light and celestial choir.
There will always be both a demand for and a supply of unskilled labor. While I agreed with you that those jobs should be able to support that individual, I don't believe that it should be in a lifestyle that makes it appealing. People should be able to eat and be sheltered by that labor; but beyond those neccessities, some form of motivation needs to be applied to avoid complacency. Ie If you want more, to support a family or buy a new car, either you save up or make your labor skills worth more.
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