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CashCowMoo
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Well we all know taxes are going up all over the place. We knew that was coming, but I wonder what the average person pays TOTAL in taxes after state and federal each year. I am talking about adding up taxes you pay on groceries, baseball tickets, fishing rods, anything like that and then seein what real percentage of income you are pilfered.


There is one thing you dont hear being talked about in Washington right now, and its to stop spending.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
Well we all know taxes are going up all over the place. We knew that was coming, but I wonder what the average person pays TOTAL in taxes after state and federal each year. I am talking about adding up taxes you pay on groceries, baseball tickets, fishing rods, anything like that and then seein what real percentage of income you are pilfered.


There is one thing you dont hear being talked about in Washington right now, and its to stop spending. We have to make everything "fair" now these days. "I want MY fair share"



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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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SeekingFreedom
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Three words...

Value Added Tax

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/weepforthenation

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IWISHIHAD
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I think i will send an i-o-u just like i received for my refund from the State of Cal.

Turn around seems like fair play to me, i am sure they would see it that way to, the feds and the state.

We should all do it that way, they can't lock everyone up... can they

Maybe all the businesses will hold the tax money and enjoy it, i-o-u the gov. also.

Like Social Security etc. consider it a loan.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
I think i will send an i-o-u just like i received for my refund from the State of Cal.

We should all do it that way, they can't lock everyone up... can they

Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
I think i will send an i-o-u just like i received for my refund from the State of Cal.

We should all do it that way, they can't lock everyone up... can they

Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you
those union organizers sure remind obama who helped get him elected. all sorts of goodies.
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IWISHIHAD
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Originally posted by Buckstalker:

"Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you"

_________________________________________________

I wonder if i would be any good?

Geting a little older to start something new like that, it would cut into baseball season with the kids, you think i could get time off from spring to summer, with pay?

The UAW did not help my Ford stock a few weeks ago when they sold their warrants off, they must be getting short of cash, bad times probably do not help them much either.

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you

<---One of the anti-union folk....

<---Not pissed at Iwish yet. [Razz]

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/weepforthenation

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Relentless.
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:


We should all do it that way, they can't lock everyone up... can they


No... but they can lock you up for suggesting it...
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T e x
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Been there, done that:

"I had the *right* to remain silent--I just didn't have the ability."

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally posted by Relentless:

"No... but they can lock you up for suggesting it... "

_________________________________________________

And that would worry me?

There are worst places from what i have heard.

The differance is that i suggest it, they just do it!

It's always a real incentive to have more money taken out to make sure i pay for my taxes, then i find out that i actually overpaid some.

But the state government says they have no money to give me back what i overpaid or loaned them to cover taxes +.

Maybe i could foreclose on the state!

I guess they call that responsible government.


-

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Relentless.
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That was a nice attempt at a duck and run.

Your point was made...

Stick to it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TzqegfBi9c

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you

<---One of the anti-union folk....

<---Not pissed at Iwish yet. [Razz]

You must be anti UNITED STATES then huh?
Last time I checked we were indeed a UNION...
Just sayin

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
Originally posted by Buckstalker:

"Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you"

_________________________________________________

I wonder if i would be any good?

Geting a little older to start something new like that, it would cut into baseball season with the kids, you think i could get time off from spring to summer, with pay?

The UAW did not help my Ford stock a few weeks ago when they sold their warrants off, they must be getting short of cash, bad times probably do not help them much either.

The UAW is not the problem with your Ford stock...in fact that stock is probably priced about 10x what it is actually worth...

Not sumpin I would be upset about

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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Relentless.
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Not a damned thing wrong with workers grouping together to confront an employer.. seems the employer has been employing that tactic for generations...
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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by CashCowMoo:
quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:
Originally posted by IWISHIHAD:
I think i will send an i-o-u just like i received for my refund from the State of Cal.

We should all do it that way, they can't lock everyone up... can they

Be careful Iwish you are starting to sound like a union organizer...all of the anti-union folk here are going to get pissed at you
those union organizers sure remind obama who helped get him elected. all sorts of goodies.
That comment is borderline idiotic...
Instead of getting mad at unions you need to get a clue...

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally posted by Buckstalker:

"The UAW is not the problem with your Ford stock...in fact that stock is probably priced about 10x what it is actually worth...

Not sumpin I would be upset about"

_________________________________________________

I was talking about the UAW selling 1.78 billion dollars in warrants the other day, then it appeared many of those warrants were converted to common stock and unloaded.

Temporary setback, should still retrace and head up, even though it might be overpriced.

Still a lot of people backing American products and the company, which is a good thing.

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally posted by Relentless:

"That was a nice attempt at a duck and run.

Your point was made...

Stick to it."

_________________________________________________

Not sure if your talking to me or not.

If so, i don't get the duck and run.

O well.


-

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
Originally posted by buckstalker:
You must be anti UNITED STATES then huh?
Last time I checked we were indeed a UNION...
Just sayin

Apples and Oranges, Buck...

Big Difference, just saying. [Razz]

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/weepforthenation

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jordanreed
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apples and oranges are fruits

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jordan

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
apples and oranges are fruits

Thanks, Jordan.

Both are tasty in whipped cream too. [Smile]

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/weepforthenation

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SeekingFreedom
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For the most part, Buck, there isn't a whole lot of areas where you and I seem to disagree substantially. But this is one where I don't think we're going to find alot of common ground.

Here's why...

Let's look at pensions first...

From the UAW website:

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact05.php

 -

$36,000 per year till 63 and $18,000 per year till death after that.

From the same page...

"Is it true that a large proportion of the UAW auto industry workforce is eligible to retire in the next few years?

Yes. Nearly half the 180,681 UAW members at the automakers will have the necessary
combination of age and years of service to retire within the next five years."


90,000!!

That's how many people are going to be pulling in $36,000 a year...EACH.

(pulls out calculator)

90,000 people time $36,000 a year equals...

wait for it....

$3,240,000,000...per year...for a very long time.

Average life expectancy in U.S...78 ish.

$3.2 Billion a year paid to people who no longer produce anything of value for the companies that pay it.

Who pays for that in the end, Buck? You and I do. Anyone that buys a car does, because that cost is passed onto the consumer.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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$3.2 Billion a year paid to people who no longer produce anything of value for the companies that pay it.


the pensions are part of the PAY package negotiated by two parites and agreed to by two parties.

in a repsonsible corporation? that money is already earned by the employees and set aside in PENSION FUNDS that are invested for them as a group.

that is one of the reasons that the banks get/got bailed out- because they are managing those assets that are already paid for AND OBLIGATED.

now, the bankers and brokers that manage those monies (that have already been earned and paid) for those thousands of people are supposedly real hotshots so they demand superior pay and incentive bonuses that are often equal to five lifetimes and more of each union employees wages per year.

the companies sometimes decide to keep those funds themselves to re-invest in their own company and that is sometimes contractually their prerogative too...

the notion that any company can survive by carrying the pensions in future costs is not sane business practice.

we have a US govt fund that garntees these things too:

PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of more than 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans.

http://www.pbgc.gov/

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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SeekingFreedom
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quote:
this is part of the PAY package negotiated by two parites and agreed to by two parties.
Ok, let's play that scenario out...

Union: Pay us X amount per year plus X amount in pensions.
Company: Why would I do that?
Union: If you don't, we strike and your plants shut down.
Company: So, this is a shake down?
Union: We prefer the term 'bargaining', but a rose by any other name....


Just because it's legal, Glass doesn't make it right.

quote:
in a repsonsible corporation? that money is already earned by the employees and set aside in PENSION FUNDS that are invested for them as a group.

that is one of the reasons that the banks get/got bailed out- because they are managing those assets that are already paid for AND OBLIGATED.

The time of the deposit doesn't matter, Glass. Whether this years $3.2 Billion was put in 10 years ago or today, it still had to be paid for by increasing prices on the cars and trucks that were sold that year. This year, they will have to put in money (from increased prices) to pay for the union pension expenditures of the future.

They are funding these pensions with increased prices which WE pay.

I wouldn't care so much if the Union workers weren't already making more than non union workers as it is. But to have them extort higher wages while working AND paychecks for perpetuity on my dime....that's just wrong imo.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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Just because it's legal, Glass doesn't make it right.

LOL. welcome to the real world freind. i am not a union person, was a member of the IBEW shortly after i got out of ht navy. my training in the Navy made me eligable to advance to Master Electrician very very fast. HOWEVER, i found the work boring. I might have liked being a master but i was still looking at five years of installing electrical outlets and assorted other boring duties before they'd allow me to run jobs.

the union was very well run in my area, it had training, it had job placement and basically took all kinds of management responsibilties away from the employers. If i had wished to i could have made a good career there. I have friends that have.

Unions are simply part of society and whether you like it or not? They should exist and they should be run well. Anybody who want to run a non-union business can do so. I know and know of plenty of people who do.

I have said many times here before that money is nothing more than a tool. If you really beleive in profit for profits sake than go be a pimp or whore or a dope dealer. it pays way better than almost any other job there is. Even being a Family Doctor. Money is about your worth to society whether you like it or not. If you pay people (i.e. treat them) what they are worth? Unions won't be wanted.

wouldn't care so much if the Union workers weren't already making more than non union workers as it is. But to have them extort higher wages while working AND paychecks for perpetuity on my dime....that's just wrong imo.

LOL. they get paid more? then go get a job there, they'll take you if you are up to their standards. I kno several union workers with two AA degrees that got them while working at a union. This anti-union stuff is BS. It's an excuse not a reason. It always is.

The Management is always ultimately responsible for the co's failure or success, that's why they get paid the really big money.

these days? that tends to be 400 times the avg pay of the employees, and that is insane. 40 times is generous. That's what made America Great. The time-frame in this country that we ebcame th eindustrial power house of the world was when CEO wages were 40X the avg worker and taxes were as high 90%! That's just facts, not opinions or speculations. The numbers donot lie.

The real problem with wages in this country today is all about competing with labor in third world countries. It cannot be done. And it will destroy this country if we keep trying to compete with Chinese the way are now. The Chinese live in work DORMITORIES! They have no health care benefits, no pensions, they live on what amounts to 57 cents per hour. Think about trying to live on that here.


The time of the deposit doesn't matter, Glass. Whether this years $3.2 Billion was put in 10 years ago or today, it still had to be paid for by increasing prices on the cars and trucks that were sold that year. This year, they will have to put in money (from increased prices) to pay for the union pension expenditures of the future.


sheesh, as for your dime? you are free to spend it how you wish. If your car ain't worht what you paid for it? Tough luck for you. You ain't complaining that the dealer makes a million dollars a year are you? I dated a girl who's daddy owned a Caddillac dealership and i ended up feeling sorry for her because her family was so dysfunctioanl. They didn't ever work, they were too busy spending the money.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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buckstalker
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OK SF...here are some numbers for you since you like to use them so often to make your points...

One assembly plant produces approximately 1000 cars per day running 2 shifts (that's 500 cars per 8 hour shift). Each car sells for approximately $25,000.00 (and many sell for much more)

1000 cars X $25,000.00 = $25,000,000.00

There are approximately 1200 workers per shift in that assembly plant that make approximately $50.00 per hour (with benefits and pension).

1200 workers x 2 shifts = 2400 workers x 8 hours x $50.00 per hour = $960,000.00

So it cost the company less than a million dollars a day in labor costs to generate 25 million in revenue per day...

I started at GM in 1976 at $6.45 an hour and I was making $26.00 per hour when I retired in 2006...

I bought my first Chevy truck in 1977 for $4000.00 brand new and I just purchased a new 2010 Chevy truck that stickered at $37,000.00

My pay increased 4x in those 30 years but the price of a truck increased 10x in the same time period...

Now how is it that the union is the reason cars cost so much?

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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SeekingFreedom
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Buck...you leave out many numbers in your example that are needed to make it complete...

Ok, so to produce the cars in your example it cost them almost a million dollars in labor.


How much did the materials cost?

How much did the transportation to market cost?

How much did the Overhead\Paperwork for safety\quality requirements cost?

How much did Utilities (water, power, etc) cost?

How much did the use of others' intellectual property cost?

How much did the equipment used cost (originally and to be maintained)?

How much of that $25,000,000 is wholesale vs. retail?


Unions aren't the only cost driver here and I never suggested that they were. What I'm saying is that in a society as litigious and governmentally regulated as America, the need for large worker organizations that literally 'shake down' businesses and drive cost per unit up for the rest of the country, all in the name of protecting the little guy, is not helping us compete in a global economy.

It is literally just increasing the amount of money that Americans are remaining in debt just to drive to work.

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/weepforthenation

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glassman
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How much did the equipment used cost (originally and to be maintained)?

that is a union job. so is collecting processing and producing the raw materials.

SF, i am hearing what you are saying, the middle class is being squeezed, but you are blaming the wrong group of people.

i urge you to read the novel The Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

The Jungle is a 1906 novel written by author and journalist Upton Sinclair. Sinclair wrote this novel to highlight the plight of the working class and to remove from obscurity the corruption of the American meatpacking industry during the early-20th century. The novel depicts in harsh tones the poverty, absence of social programs, unpleasant living and working conditions, and hopelessness prevalent among the working class, which is contrasted with the deeply-rooted corruption on the part of those in power. The sad state of turn-of-the-century labor is placed front and center for the American public to see, suggesting that something needed to be changed to get rid of American "wage slavery".[1] The novel is also an important example of the "muckraking" tradition begun by journalists such as Jacob Riis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

of course it was written by a "Socialist" but that doesn't change the truth's held within it.

lemme give an American example of Labor.

the South produced Cotton using slave labor the North bought it and spun it and weaved it and produced textiles from it using CHILD LABOR!

The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. It managed to pass one law, which was struck down by the Supreme Court two years later for violating a child's right to contract his work. In 1924, Congress attempted to pass a constitutional amendment that would authorize a national child labor law. This measure was blocked, and the bill was eventually dropped. It took the Great Depression to end child labor nationwide; adults had become so desperate for jobs that they would work for the same wage as children. In 1938, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Fair Labor Standards Act, which, among other things, placed limits on many forms of child labor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States

we are not so far away from that time. Do you think we should RETURN to it? Cuz that's what our country is founded in.

the Noorhterners sent thier mills to the South starting the early 20th century to get cheaper labor cuz they lost child labor. Now the textile mills have left the South for China. People want to wear clothes, they just don't the clothes bad enough to pay their neighbor to make them for them. [Wink]


Heck the womens right to vote didn't come until 1920 and it took a Constitional Ammendment to do it. Woodrow Wislon was instrumental in getting it done finally.

now you talk about personal freedom and by your name you say you are seeking it.

what i have learned over the years is the personal freedom for one person is USUALLY the opposite of freedom for somebody else.

so, if you want to call finding the balance of Freedom available between each individual in society Socialism? then so be it.

This country has imported cheap labor in one way or another since before we were a country. Those days are over

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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buckstalker
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quote:
Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
is not helping us compete in a global economy.


SF...we CANNOT compete in a global economy unless we are willing to lower our standard of living to that of a third world nation...IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?

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***********************

It's all in the timing...

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally posted by Glassman;

"If you pay people (i.e. treat them) what they are worth? Unions won't be wanted."

_________________________________________________

That's the key.

Someone might argue what a person is worth, bottom line a lot more than many employers are paying.

Compare industries pay to the sixties and seventies and add inflation and everything else, it will give you a pretty good idea.

Unions are the Equalizer.

Each side will abuse the system some, as they gain a stonghold, but that changes as times change, the oppressed becomes the oppressor.

It not like many of the bigger companies upper management 1-5% are going to give back their big hauls for the companies to spread the wealth to all the workers.

These upper employees take all they can for theselves and really could care less, the only equalizer are the unions or fear of the unions, which in this day in age is little.

These times favor the companies and there gready 1-5% management.

Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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