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Author Topic: What on earth is a Permanent Job?
glassman
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I keep hearing so-called conservatives critisize the stimulus package by saying it doesn't create Permanent Jobs,

so i ask WTF is a permanent job? undertaker? garbage collector? tax collector! i'm serious. prison guard? WTF is a permanent job?

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glassman
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here's your friggin Permanent jobs!

The average person born in the later years of the baby boom
held 10.8 jobs from age 18 to age 42, according to the Bureau of
Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor. Nearly two-
thirds of these jobs were held from ages 18 to 27.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/nlsoy.nr0.htm

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raybond
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Thats all the conservatives do they find fault with everything and bring nothing to the table.

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glassman
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that's only half the job in an adversarial form of govt Ray, and that's the problem.


now i hear s-called conservatives claiming they cannot hire people cuz they are worried about health care reform, but a public option, which would releive them of the responsibiltiy to provide employer based health care, is off the table...

you are darn right that if offered? public health care would push private health care out because every business out there would be able to increase their own bottom line from it.... that in turn would stimulate the economy. it's so simple that even junior high kids can grasp the concept.


i don't particularly want public health care, but at 15 grand a year? small businesses would definitely be able to hire more people if they didn't have to worry about providing health care at all wouldn't they?


it's ridiculous. i am economically conservative. i live well within my means, i do not borrow money, i build my wealth and use it without leverage. i see almost no-one else doing that. esp. "conservatives"

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Relentless.
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I think what is meant is jobs that are not based on a single contract. Meaning a firm gets a contract and hires ten temps... Contract is up and temps go home. (Cash for Clunkers) What is likely meant is sustained employment via numerous opportunities to businesses.

Glass, your assesment of the economics of government mandated and supplied health care is without objectivity. You claim businesses could easily save the fifteen grand but neglect at any point to provide opinion on the increase in taxes both corporate and income.

Never once seen government do more for less...

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glassman
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Never once seen government do more for less...


ever seen a doctor do that either? or anybody for that matter?

it's not like we shop for health care or can.

in fact? the VA has a good drug contract program.

fact is? the more people working the more GDP we have and more revenues are collected thru fair taxation.

i have had no better care from HMO's than from the VA and i like my BCBS, but i pay 15 grand a year for it...

it's not as tho i want govt run health care, but what i see now is that Dr's do as they please and charge as they please. they have brought all this upon us.

we already pay to "heal the poor" and we pay for drug commercials on TV with our insurance.

the govt is supposedly by the people and for the peole, i agree that it has not lived up to that standard. it is clearly by the corporations and for the corporations. health insurance corps are going to love the new health care plan, and that will hqave been done by the Dems and the GOP both even tho the GOP claims they don't want it. they wrote plenty of it then they vote against it knowing they can get away with that.

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Relentless.
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Can't for a second argue that health care insurance isn't crippling... It is a huge burden.
But I also can't imagine that government won't usher that fifteen grand right back to us... and then some. Thus negating the boon to the economy.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
Can't for a second argue that health care insurance isn't crippling... It is a huge burden.
But I also can't imagine that government won't usher that fifteen grand right back to us... and then some. Thus negating the boon to the economy.

i'm not sure they won't. what do other countries figger it out to cost?

The U.S. spends much more on health care than Canada, both on a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.[5] In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%.[5] In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_sys tems

"death panels"? they'd use statistics to determine health care cost-benefits-analysis...

that's bothersome because some people feel that they must be unique and they need to be excepted from the stistitics.

but,

suppose a certain family practice doctor was sending everybody he sees to the "butt doctor" with the camera on the scope at 1500/per whack every year because he owns the equipment that they use and gets a fee every time? the govt might be able to stop that....

and all the TV commercials? we traders know for fact how strong the power of suggestion is. think about it... how many people get medications they don't need cuz they tell their doctor what they truly feel because they saw it on TV?

and how come placebos work so much better than they did 30 years ago? is it because the drugs do not? or is it because of suggestion that drugs can heal everything? those are things the govt run well can fix.
we agree that the govt hasn't been performng too well. but i totally disagree thatthe govt is any worse or better than "for profit" enterprise...

it's all people and we are all imperfect. ywould you rather have some "cold fish" bureaucrat looking at statistics denying you coverage or would rahter have somebody who is getting a BONUS looking over your coverage to figger out how to dump you? i don't see it any different. except you can vote out a the govt if they are screwing you over.

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Relentless.
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I think you just made my point for me...
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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
I think you just made my point for me...

i'm not defending the govt. we all know they screw stuff up. but the last timer i had insurance provided by a private employer it was Kaiser, and they suck worse than the VA.

all i'm saying is that we would most definitely have more job growth if small businesses (under 50 employees) were able to use a govt run health plan...

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
I think what is meant is jobs that are not based on a single contract. Meaning a firm gets a contract and hires ten temps... Contract is up and temps go home. (Cash for Clunkers) What is likely meant is sustained employment via numerous opportunities to businesses.

Glass, your assesment of the economics of government mandated and supplied health care is without objectivity. You claim businesses could easily save the fifteen grand but neglect at any point to provide opinion on the increase in taxes both corporate and income.

Never once seen government do more for less...

i just notice the mandated part. i don't ever recall suggesting mandated coverage was a good idea.

in fact? i don't beleive it is Constitutional and said so.


back to permanent jobs. there is no such thing as a permanent construction job. there is no such thing as a permanent job to be created.

because (by simple definition) all the "permanent jobs" are still filled and operational get it?

i am only trying to point out how ridiculous and quite frankly useless the "right" has become.

you almost have to be willing and able to suspend disbeleif to be a "political conservative"

if we are going to have a "conservative" side of politics in the next decade? these bozo's better come up with some better talking points.

we need to stop using our imagination as a destructive force and begin using it for productivity.

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T e x
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Here's a guy without one...

quote:
Neb. illegal immigrant gets workers' comp

Associated Press - December 9, 2009 10:45 AM ET

LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) - The Nebraska Court of Appeals has upheld a lower court ruling that an illegal immigrant injured at a slaughterhouse is eligible for workers' compensation benefits.

Cargill argued that because Odilon Visoso cannot legally work, he should not be eligible to receive weekly wages of about $340, payment for future medical expenses related to his spine injury and other benefits.

In 2006, a 100-pound slab of beef fell from a hook and landed on him at the plant in Schuyler. Visoso had surgery in October 2007 and was fired shortly after by Cargill because, its officials say, he was an illegal immigrant.

In its ruling, the court pointed out that state law says all employees, including illegal immigrants, are eligible for workers' compensation.

On the Net:

Ruling: http://www.supremecourt.ne.gov/opinions/2009/december/dec8/a09-339.pdf

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

What I wanna know is...howcum Cargill ain't in trouble?

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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glassman
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because the US is a country run by the corporation and for the corporation, and under the corporate system, people are not held individually accountable.

i think the guy should get comp.- allowing them to deny comp would only increase the likelihood of hiring illegally.

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The Bigfoot
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Sleeping, Eating, Pooping, and scratching yourself are the only permanent jobs I can think of.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
because the US is a country run by the corporation and for the corporation, and under the corporate system, people are not held individually accountable.

i think the guy should get comp.- allowing them to deny comp would only increase the likelihood of hiring illegally.

not my point re WC--that's state law.

But Cargill fires him AFTER he's hurt--for being illegal? THEY hired him...

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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IWISHIHAD
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Originally Posted By Glassman:


"i'm not defending the govt. we all know they screw stuff up. but the last timer i had insurance provided by a private employer it was Kaiser, and they suck worse than the VA."

in fact? the VA has a good drug contract program

_________________________________________________

Does anyone know if the new government health care plan would be like medicare or the VA, as far as malpractice lawsuits?

The VA does have some drawbacks on the drug programs only geting the older drugs generally, but does have good prices on them or no price, if you can't afford them.

They are really re-doing one of the VA facilities close to me.

Bringing it up to date, i am surprised how improved it will be.

Not that i use it, but had to go there a few weeks ago and was really surprised.

They even have quite a few acupucture rooms.

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Relentless.
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quote:
Originally posted by T e x:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
because the US is a country run by the corporation and for the corporation, and under the corporate system, people are not held individually accountable.

i think the guy should get comp.- allowing them to deny comp would only increase the likelihood of hiring illegally.

not my point re WC--that's state law.

But Cargill fires him AFTER he's hurt--for being illegal? THEY hired him...

They can fire 'em they just can't hire 'em.
My company did so about a year ago. Not because they got hurt but our lawyers did checks on everyone and about five or six came back with phony paperwork.. Poof they were gone.
Yes in this case it sure seemed like an easy way out for the company considering the situation.. But wholly legal if you stop to think.
Guy shoulda never been there to start with.

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T e x
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quote:
Guy shoulda never been there to start with.
RD? You wanna think that through?

"just can't hire 'em"

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
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Relentless.
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Already did.. Your turn
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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
I think what is meant is jobs that are not based on a single contract. Meaning a firm gets a contract and hires ten temps... Contract is up and temps go home. (Cash for Clunkers) What is likely meant is sustained employment via numerous opportunities to businesses.

Glass, your assesment of the economics of government mandated and supplied health care is without objectivity. You claim businesses could easily save the fifteen grand but neglect at any point to provide opinion on the increase in taxes both corporate and income.

Never once seen government do more for less...

i just notice the mandated part. i don't ever recall suggesting mandated coverage was a good idea.

in fact? i don't beleive it is Constitutional and said so.


back to permanent jobs. there is no such thing as a permanent construction job. there is no such thing as a permanent job to be created.

because (by simple definition) all the "permanent jobs" are still filled and operational get it?

i am only trying to point out how ridiculous and quite frankly useless the "right" has become.

you almost have to be willing and able to suspend disbeleif to be a "political conservative"

if we are going to have a "conservative" side of politics in the next decade? these bozo's better come up with some better talking points.

we need to stop using our imagination as a destructive force and begin using it for productivity.

Glass, So your saying all jobs are temporary jobs? I believe the term "permanent jobs" are jobs intended to be looked at as possible career employment.
I think you know what they mean, your just playing dumb with us to take a swipe at those politically opposed to your idiology. correct?

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The Bigfoot
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Hence Tex's point. The guy broke the law by crossing the border illegally and he'll get jailed, fined, and tossed out because of it. Cargill broke the law by aiding and abetting his illegal residency and they get......?

Your company also seems to have broken the law by hiring illegal aliens and what censure did your company see for it?

It takes two to tango and I only see one partner with sore feet.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Relentless.:
I think what is meant is jobs that are not based on a single contract. Meaning a firm gets a contract and hires ten temps... Contract is up and temps go home. (Cash for Clunkers) What is likely meant is sustained employment via numerous opportunities to businesses.

Glass, your assesment of the economics of government mandated and supplied health care is without objectivity. You claim businesses could easily save the fifteen grand but neglect at any point to provide opinion on the increase in taxes both corporate and income.

Never once seen government do more for less...

i just notice the mandated part. i don't ever recall suggesting mandated coverage was a good idea.

in fact? i don't beleive it is Constitutional and said so.


back to permanent jobs. there is no such thing as a permanent construction job. there is no such thing as a permanent job to be created.

because (by simple definition) all the "permanent jobs" are still filled and operational get it?

i am only trying to point out how ridiculous and quite frankly useless the "right" has become.

you almost have to be willing and able to suspend disbeleif to be a "political conservative"

if we are going to have a "conservative" side of politics in the next decade? these bozo's better come up with some better talking points.

we need to stop using our imagination as a destructive force and begin using it for productivity.

Glass, So your saying all jobs are temporary jobs? I believe the term "permanent jobs" are jobs intended to be looked at as possible career employment.
I think you know what they mean, your just playing dumb with us to take a swipe at those politically opposed to your idiology. correct?

Lock, he's not "playing dumb" -- it's rhetorical. We all know the phraseology is permanent positions. His point is about how others "play dumb."

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
Hence Tex's point. The guy broke the law by crossing the border illegally and he'll get jailed, fined, and tossed out because of it. Cargill broke the law by aiding and abetting his illegal residency and they get......?

Your company also seems to have broken the law by hiring illegal aliens and what censure did your company see for it?

It takes two to tango and I only see one partner with sore feet.

[Wink]

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
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glassman
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His point is about how others "play dumb."

thank you Tex.

i'm tired of hearing one lie after another on the "conservative news network"

i can't tell you how many times a day i hear Obama getting blamed for TARP...

the stupid part is that TARP saved our economy and it was Bush. these idiots on TV can't seem to grasp that their newscorp is in financial trouble too, and that's because of the economic practices that were implemented by an extremely conservative CEO and under a conservative governmet. It's just creepy

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The Bigfoot
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It's all about supply and demand. We overstocked in multiple industries and because of that demand was sated. Our economy was headed for a stall out even discounting all the bad paper and fraud that passed the underwriters and regulators desks without hearing a single boo.

What critics of the stimulus are basically saying is that the stimulus doesn't create long term demand. Now then, try to come up with a scenario where an entity could create long term demand in an oversupplied market? Short of long term subsidizing or confiscation of excess goods there is no way to do it and both the two options listed above would have a negative targeted economic value that would drive the recession deeper for those affected.

What can be done, has been done. Temporary projects working on existing or previously planned facilities while implementing stronger quality controls to upgrade or remove substandard goods from the marketplace in an effort to reduce recurring expenses while waiting for the shock of rampant fraud to wear off and for the market to absorb the excessive production of the last decade.

Relentless calls Cash for Clunkers a temporary contract with no lasting value. I agree it was temporary but I call it a short term subsidy of the auto industry with a new car being provided to the taxpayers who chose (and were eligible) to participate. It doesn't increase supply because all vehicles turned in were destroyed, but gives the industry vendors an infusion of capital they can use to survive while adjusting to the new reduced auto market. The secondary effect of cash for clunkers is upgrading substandard vehicles (fuel efficiency/emissions) in the public domain to reduce the recurring expenses of fossil fuel importation and emissions related toxic clean up costs.

My fear is that it appears the lesson hasn't been taken to heart. While the American automaker (and auto customer) have finally started putting a premium on efficiency it seems to me the industry as a whole is ramping up to flood the market again as soon as possible. Leasing programs are back in action and soon we will have a greater supply than we have even now if with a new line of vehicles. You can not increase your product sales by 4% per year when the size of the market only increases by 3% per year and expect to remain sustainable.

Now attention is turning to homes in the form of the home buyer tax credit extension, the Fed buying MBS and keeping rates steady, and home improvement/energy efficiency credits. Foreclosures are down 8% this month so it appears there are effects taking place.

Then perhaps the jobs summit will have a new direction to reduce the unemployment rate while work continues on making headway in overhauling healthcare and reducing medical costs while increasing the health of the nation.

You can argue that the stimulus isn't worth the cost if you want, but lets be honest here...the only other option was do nothing. There is no permanent job plan that could have been enacted but was passed up. What is being done is what was available to be done.

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T e x
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"Cash for Caulkers"

I want some o' that, both as consumer and as contractor.

The problem as it stands is, it's being pitched as a subsidy. That's goofy: the homes in worst need are owned by peeps with the least capital. It should be income-based, prorated, such that the poorest don't have to come up with matching funds.

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The Bigfoot
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I agree Tex but how to form the program to be flexible enough to do so without tons of fraud escapes me.

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Lockman
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As long as the "Jobs" being created are jobs on the government payroll we will not have a sustained recovery.

I see nothing the present administration is doing that will promote private sector jobs. There are no incentives for businesses to do business in the U.S.

Clearly this administration is leading us into a socialist direction. How can you tell?

They're involving government in areas that in a capitalist society it wouldn't be.

One after another they have basically taken control of business sectors of our economy. The president and congress should not be setting limits on what private companies can pay their employees. This shows how deep they are in controlling commerce.

If a company cannot survive it should go bankrupt, not be bailed out to make the same mistakes again. Instead we have citizens money risked to prop up these failed companies and then they go b/k anyway.

TARP was to be a temporary loan to these banks so they could survive. All the money was to be returned with interest and then used to retire the defecit. But business as usual congress and the president have other plans for it. It's a joke and if you guys cheer on this clown and his cronnies...well sometimes ya get what ya wish for.

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glassman
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The president and congress should not be setting limits on what private companies can pay their employees

is that your only example of socialism?

cuz they only set the pay limits in co's they bought stock in..

co's that would have failed had they not done it. the TARP money was paid for prefered stock.


you may argue that bailouts are bad, i don't LIKE them either. but we have allowed our anti-trust laws to decay, and any business too big to fail is to big to exist.

however,

the reason the Great Depression got to be a depression instead of a recession was because they did nothing and let co's fail. they fell, and fell and fell like dominoes... we could not tolerate a decade of that again.

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T e x
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
I agree Tex but how to form the program to be flexible enough to do so without tons of fraud escapes me.

Hire peeps like me & you... [Big Grin]

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Nashoba Holba Chepulechi
Adventures in microcapitalism...

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Lockman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
The president and congress should not be setting limits on what private companies can pay their employees

is that your only example of socialism?

cuz they only set the pay limits in co's they bought stock in..

co's that would have failed had they not done it. the TARP money was paid for prefered stock.


you may argue that bailouts are bad, i don't LIKE them either. but we have allowed our anti-trust laws to decay, and any business too big to fail is to big to exist.

however,

the reason the Great Depression got to be a depression instead of a recession was because they did nothing and let co's fail. they fell, and fell and fell like dominoes... we could not tolerate a decade of that again.

Their now talking about limiting the pay to insurance company employees. That's gonna really help the industry.
And after their done with that can energy companies be far behind.
Don't you see the trend? It's not going to happen overnight but be aware that if left unchecked their plan is to bring us all under the government umbrella. Are you going to wait until the government decides how much your glass work is worth before you wake up?

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Let's Go METS!!!

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glassman
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Are you going to wait until the government decides how much your glass work is worth before you wake up?

i assume you mean health insurance?

i expect most of the health insurance stuff to fail, be found unconstitutional or be relegislated...

very little of of what i have seen that they have done is worth a chit...

it was expected and what comes out will be what always comes out of the sausagemaking process...

they try to please everybody and end up pleasing nobody...

IMO? a very basic govt health care plan could be created that MANY would be glad to have, and those that do not want it could buy their private insurance.

many employers would switch to it and their best employees would LEAVE! freemarkets will rule provided they are really free...

i am not the least bit concerened about insurance co's ability to survive as long as they provide quality service and are legally allowed to.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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That's gonna really help the industry.
And after their done with that can energy companies be far behind.


a history lesson?

when the energy companies were created? we legislated the land away from the landowners.. see Tennsseee Valley Atuthority...

the Electric co's in particular had to have govt assistance to com einto existence.

they should be regulated since we cannot shop for electricity.

oil? yeah freemarkets are working so good on oil that i can hardly stand it...

Nuclear? the most regulated energy there is and we need more, much more, and NOBODY in their right mind wants it to be unregulated..

until "conservatives" stop using their imagination to see the Govt as nothing but a bunch of fools and morons? the "conservative" movement is dead.

we have to have GOOD government. quality government, and we have to have a cosntitutional limit on most govenrmnet spending.

i beleive the total natioanl debt should never exceed 25% of the avg of the past 5 years GDP...

2003: 10.9tr$
2004: 11.6 Tr$
2005: 12.4 tr$
2006:13.1 tr$
2007:13.8 tr$
2008: 14.2 tr$

ok so maybe 40% but it needs to be set at som reasonable number and fixed there. wars? we raise taxes to pay for them. none of this voodoo about lowering taxes and increasing revenues. War should be painful to taxpayers.

there's a good reason to find a reasonable low tax rate and stick with it. you cannot keep lowering taxes until there is no place lower them.

GDP increased 40% between 2000 and 2008.... that's why they keep increasing Govt spending, so freeze it now at 2007 levels (before bailouts) and give the country a few years to allow GDP to catch up, then pay down the debt and keep it set at 25% to 40% of the five year running avg....

that's what we "conservatives" need to be talking about instead how "doomed" we are...

i'm tired of hearing it, and Obama has barely done anything yet. his speech in Oslo today didn't sound liberal at all to me [Wink]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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"conservatives" have no place at the table right now, and they aren't going to get one by destroying the country with all the doomsday talk.

they will get it back being reasonable and putting forth quality ideas loudly, not all this "the sky is falling stuff" America loves winners, not whiners.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Relentless.
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I find it just a tad amusing that the discussions and assaults are only on one party when it is more than clear that the two parties are the same.
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