posted
Darned hard to argue with him when he was right, ain't it. He's right about it will take years to come out of it too.
And he's darned right when he explains that we stopped producing products and turned to providing service and in order to recover we must get back to the producing products business.
The stimulus is necessary, but it ain't a silver bullet left behind so folks can figure out the Lone Ranger has been by and already saved the day as they watch Obama ride off into the sunset atop Silver.
This is gonna be painful.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
great post, I wonder if all those economists that were laughing at him are still laughing.
Posts: 492 | From: new york | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Ben Stein should stick to selling eye drops. this is a good example of why i can't stand fox "news".
so how do we get out this mess for real?
i believe the real plan they are not telling US is inflation and a weak dollar, that's the only way we can pay back the debt without raising taxes, and obviously raising taxes won't work.
we've been quietly (without announcing it) trying to weaken the dollar for almost two years and the other countries have just been weakening more, so how do you force them to accept a weaker dollar?
print without borrowing.
we need brand new fully modernised state of the art concrete/cement and steel plants for starters.
as Tex said before? we need a new version of oil refinery that is modular, so that capacity exceeds demand.
high oil/energy prices are the second biggest reason for this economic collapse (behind the housing insanity)
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by a surfer: If only he could take Geitners place....
There are different sorts of talent and different qualities of experience. Geitner hasn't shown any inabilities at handling the position to which he has been placed and does look like he has both the amount and kinds of experience that is required for the position.
I respect Schiff's talents and admire his willingness to step off the deep end to challenge the force of opinion from those with differing conclusions (and I note that, in spite of the prevailing inferences in this thread, he was nowhere near alone in his opinion that the glowing reports of our economic situation by the past administration and the entire polityical might of the republican Party was wrong), but that is not an adequate background of talent and experience to run and administer the Treasury of the United States. (My God! My barber was voicing essentially the same general thoughts as did Shiff well before him, but that doesn't qualify him to be Secretary of Treasury.)
In the world of finance, testing the authority and the decisions of the IRS is a standard and accepted. even necessary, procedure that assures that the Service isn't entirely free to be absolutely dictatorial, so that the rest of us have some guidelines and court decisions to guide us through the process. Testing the announced decisions of the IRS is no different from appealing a verdict by some part time municipal judge in a court of no record on a parking ticket, however large or small the amount in question. It is part of the checks and balances we must have in OUR system and OUR way to assure it remains OUR system.
Any claims that Geitner is or had attempted to cheat or refused to abide by the outcomes of contested or questioned rulings in favor of the IRS are nothing more than political smoke screening by a purely negative Party line propaganda machine. The eventual decisions are NOT CRIMINAL and there has not even been a hint from the IRS that there was even such a question. It is only the Party that wishes to lay that smear.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
My barber was voicing essentially the same general thoughts as did Shiff well before him, but that doesn't qualify him to be Secretary of Treasury.)
so were more than a few people right here.
we had some raging debates a few years back about real estate investment.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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however, i do see a heelofalot of deliberate misinformation out there. CNBC is not much better than fox "news", and in some ways they are worse cuz the misinformation is presented more professionally. fox may say they are fair and balance but i doubt seriously anybody actually beleives that, i'm sure they don't...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Ben Stein should stick to selling eye drops. this is a good example of why i can't stand fox "news".
so how do we get out this mess for real?
i believe the real plan they are not telling US is inflation and a weak dollar, that's the only way we can pay back the debt without raising taxes, and obviously raising taxes won't work.
we've been quietly (without announcing it) trying to weaken the dollar for almost two years and the other countries have just been weakening more, so how do you force them to accept a weaker dollar?
print without borrowing.
we need brand new fully modernised state of the art concrete/cement and steel plants for starters.
as Tex said before? we need a new version of oil refinery that is modular, so that capacity exceeds demand.
high oil/energy prices are the second biggest reason for this economic collapse (behind the housing insanity)
Great points glass.
The floor in housing would be a nice start.
I wonder what Obama has in store for us Wed. in reference to mortgages.
I think its crucial to use a timeline along with a percentage of value to determine who recieves principal reduction.
Those who bought at the most inflated prices, say first half of 06 would recieve the most help.
Let me give you an example of the ferocity of the drop in home prices.
I bought in Jan of 04 a home for $285,000.
In march of 06 we sold it for $590,000.
The folks that bought it put $140,000 down so they owe $450,000.
The house just appraised for $260,000.
The jewelry business they own has all but gone out of business. They can't afford the house and their only option is a short sale or foreclosure.
These folks are in their late 50's and don't have the recovery time that a younger couple might.
On top of that they have split up and now contemplating divorce.
I have several other friends who also bought near the top and are in the same situation. All hard working Americans.
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: I have several other friends who also bought near the top and are in the same situation. All hard working Americans.
i heard a report last week that the average american family's wealth dropped by 25% in '08.
people are going to have to prepare to work instead of playing golf.
i'm the last of the baby boomers... some people say it lasted till 63 others say it ended in '58...
i've known for 15 years that i'll be working till i drop dead, so i began looking for work that i like. i consider myself lucky to have found it.
Then you have done well. The saw saying "He who dies with the most toys won." is horribly misguided. It is, instead, He who has turned all of life into a toy shop won.
The real secret of life is to either make you work your passion or your passion your work. Then you won't need nearly so many expensive toys to make life enjoyable and IT keepS your mind off the worries and drudgery of work. A happy man is wealthy; a wealthy man may never be happy.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Let me give you an example of the ferocity of the drop in home prices.
I bought in Jan of 04 a home for $285,000.
In march of 06 we sold it for $590,000.
The folks that bought it put $140,000 down so they owe $450,000.
The house just appraised for $260,000.
The jewelry business they own has all but gone out of business. They can't afford the house and their only option is a short sale or foreclosure.
These folks are in their late 50's and don't have the recovery time that a younger couple might.
So, let me get this straight. Because some idiots paid double the true value of a house in the middle of the biggest real estate bubble in history, they deserve a handout from the honest, hardworking, smarter people who did not? Give me a break! If a person was stupid enough to pay too much for their house and they can no longer afford it, they should be foreclosed on and go live in a rental. I've got a one bedroom, low income apartment that would be perfect for them. Maybe they could even get Section 8!!! They'll be nice and toasty during the winter too, because our benevolent President included $5 BILLION for weatherization!
On top of that they have split up and now contemplating divorce.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
well PM once again you prove yourself to be a sociopath.
it isn't even that you are wrong, it's just yer attitude.
there's a whole list of people responsible for those prices being wrong, starting with realtors, apraisors, the mortgage originators etc.
i closed on my house in '05 i paid 60% of what the asking was, but the ONLY reason i got it that low was because it had an 1800 square foot workshop that nobody else wanted (yes the lazy factor)...
fact is? you buy crap that nobody else wants, and the desire factor is what caused the bubble, people actually beleived the future was looking good, they had ambition, and they were being told by almost everybody that they were being patriotic. in other words? they bought believing the future was good.
so? when you call people that paid too much stupid? you are basically saying society is stupid. and if you don't beleive that? i got some little blue pills...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Let me give you an example of the ferocity of the drop in home prices.
I bought in Jan of 04 a home for $285,000.
In march of 06 we sold it for $590,000.
The folks that bought it put $140,000 down so they owe $450,000.
The house just appraised for $260,000.
The jewelry business they own has all but gone out of business. They can't afford the house and their only option is a short sale or foreclosure.
These folks are in their late 50's and don't have the recovery time that a younger couple might.
So, let me get this straight. Because some idiots paid double the true value of a house in the middle of the biggest real estate bubble in history, they deserve a handout from the honest, hardworking, smarter people who did not? Give me a break! If a person was stupid enough to pay too much for their house and they can no longer afford it, they should be foreclosed on and go live in a rental. I've got a one bedroom, low income apartment that would be perfect for them. Maybe they could even get Section 8!!! They'll be nice and toasty during the winter too, because our benevolent President included $5 BILLION for weatherization!
On top of that they have split up and now contemplating divorce.
Yeah, to you every one that isn't an eager gatherer and hoarder of government program money is stupid and an idiot. And, of course, you aren't capable of even considering that those people were maybe lured into that trap by your kind just to collect a fee (or is it that you are knowingly putting up a smoke screen in hopes of keeping people from seeing your guilt.)
You just aren't able to resist that urge enormous need to belittle and insult people that aren't rich, can you? I think your twisted thinking must be the result of twisted genetics. You must have inherited the inability to resist disrespecting and smearing the name of people, because I don't think as much talent for abusing and insulting could be the result of practice or dedication or even indoctrination.
It's too bad that in this world all the appropriate use for your most distinctive attribute must go to waste. Your sort of hateful bigotry would have been in demand in the Lubyanka prison or in Sobibor. And you missed out on all the fun and games at Abu Ghraib, too.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
As always Bdgee, you didn't respond to the issue and you completely misread my post.
I didn't say ANYTHING about people that aren't "an eager gatherer and hoarder of government program money" being stupid. You just made that up.
I didn't say ANYTHING about people that are or are not rich. You just made that up.
You are simply incapable of discussing any issue. All you do is type the same gibberish over and over to anyone that doesn't agree with you. It would be sad, if it weren't so funny!!! LOL! Worse yet, you're starting to influence Glass and his posts are becoming more and more nonsensical and nonresponsive.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Let me give you an example of the ferocity of the drop in home prices.
I bought in Jan of 04 a home for $285,000.
In march of 06 we sold it for $590,000.
The folks that bought it put $140,000 down so they owe $450,000.
The house just appraised for $260,000.
The jewelry business they own has all but gone out of business. They can't afford the house and their only option is a short sale or foreclosure.
These folks are in their late 50's and don't have the recovery time that a younger couple might.
So, let me get this straight. Because some idiots paid double the true value of a house in the middle of the biggest real estate bubble in history, they deserve a handout from the honest, hardworking, smarter people who did not? Give me a break! If a person was stupid enough to pay too much for their house and they can no longer afford it, they should be foreclosed on and go live in a rental. I've got a one bedroom, low income apartment that would be perfect for them. Maybe they could even get Section 8!!! They'll be nice and toasty during the winter too, because our benevolent President included $5 BILLION for weatherization!
On top of that they have split up and now contemplating divorce.
You have zero class and even less soul.
Good luck with that combo.
Posts: 6410 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: As always Bdgee, you didn't respond to the issue and you completely misread my post.
I didn't say ANYTHING about people that aren't "an eager gatherer and hoarder of government program money" being stupid. You just made that up.
I didn't say ANYTHING about people that are or are not rich. You just made that up.
You are simply incapable of discussing any issue. All you do is type the same gibberish over and over to anyone that doesn't agree with you. It would be sad, if it weren't so funny!!! LOL! Worse yet, you're starting to influence Glass and his posts are becoming more and more nonsensical and nonresponsive.
"I didn't say ANYTHING about people that are or are not rich. You just made that up."
No, I didn't make that up. And I'm not surprised that you can't fathom how you did, because to you such bias is ingrained into your heart and soul and even constitutes a bit of the marrow of your bones, so that, it seems to you to be as coming from the gods, natural, and indisputable.....just a natural feature of the landscape. Evil bigotry always flies over the heads of lame brained bigots, as if there were no thought there at all (pun intended).
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
the truly disturbing aspect to PMs general attitude is that he appears to be mimmicking the far right media talking heads.
the GOP seems to be left marching to that drumbeat.
it seems that anybody with the least amount of empathy for his or her fellow human being is now a socialist. Unfortunately for the people calling anyone with the least amount empathy a socialist places the "namecaller" in the category of fascist, since fascists cling steadfastly to "natural selection" economic principles...
most of the subscribers to this "new conservatism" are big fans of Ayn Rand and specifically read Atlas Shrugged as if it were the newest book of the Bible.
Objectivism is the resulting philosophical program, and quite frankly it's a little spooky. I can apply quite a few more animal traits to objectivism than i can exclusively human traits.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Sadly, we too often choose (I don't say forget, because to way too many of us, religious or species ego teaching overrides rational thought) to believe that humans, too, are animal and can act with the basest of animal instinct.
In a realm of almost clan like pride, the Golden Rule gets cast aside via the simple trick of bigoted assignments of human value for whatever "classes" you choose to see, so that "the others" the Golden rule speaks of can justifiably only include only those of at least equal human status as that with which you have tagged your own. Then, all those whom you have fit into classes with lesser human worth (in this ego convoluted metric) are somewhat less than fully human and were, according to your measure, never intended to be protected by the Golden Rule.
Too, such manipulations of altruism also allows the vicious name calling we see from a PM and, inevitability, should it be carried on unchecked too long, standardization and acceptance of measures such as gas-houses to rid our race of vermin such as Jews, Gypsies, mentally retarded, dope crazed, and physically handicapped (and political others).
Therein lies the repulsion we feel on reading the hate and vitriol in PM's far too standard post. Even if not in detail or step by step, subconsciously, we see through that line if reasoning to what it will one day be demanding of us and our own innate humanity revolts.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Now, you've confirmed that you're a mean-spirited idiot.
People bought homes at the "true" value that was appraised at the time of purchase. What part of that don't you understand?
Millions of jobs have been lost. People did not expect their own employment situation.
I'm sure most of these people would be glad to sell their homes and not have to require any assistance but, because of the loss of value, they can't.
While many people were given mortgages they could not afford, many more were able afford their mortgages at the time.
So simple, yet you're inability comprehend the obvious is incredible.
I wouldn't say you're a sociopath because they at least have charm. You must be a real delight in civilized company.
Posts: 184 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:People bought homes at the "true" value that was appraised at the time of purchase. What part of that don't you understand?
What you don't understand is that people are responsible for their decisions and actions! Housing prices were enbroiled in a BUBBLE, which means they clearly reached unsustainable levels and yet the herd mentality allowed people to think they would continue to rise indefinitely. The fact that people weren't smart enough to understand that housing was in a bubble is their problem and I certainly should not be forced to bail them out.
quote:Millions of jobs have been lost. People did not expect their own employment situation.
What you lefties don't understand (yet) is that this is just the beginning. We are in this mess because of government overspending and the solution to that problem is not more overspending (like the current stimulus plan and including the 1st stimulus plan). As I've said many times before, this can't be laid at Obama's feet as he just took office. However, all this wild spending WILL cause our economy to collapse. So, if you don't like the pain now, just stand by, it's going to get A LOT WORSE!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
What we do understand, PM, is that while you go out of your way to insult and belittle those trapped in that housing bubble, you make it clear that you admire the bankers and freemarket politicos that made the problem and created the trap that ensnared those poor folks.
You and your kind are evil.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:What we do understand, PM, is that while you go out of your way to insult and belittle those trapped in that housing bubble, you make it clear that you admire the bankers and freemarket politicos that made the problem and created the trap that ensnared those poor folks.
Once again Bdgee, you're lack of reading skills are showing. I have posted on numerous occassion that I believe that bankers and banks that made risky loans should be allowed to fail.
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
My reading skills are not at all deficient.
There are never the class demeaning adjectives tied to bankers and such, but you can't hide your hate of the lesser classes with your ever present "wacko" and "socialistic" and "lefty" etc. Your ever present attitude about those caught in the weaves of society is at least on a par with the very best and most determined to reach for the purest of Aryan blood during the reign of Adolph.
Your thinking is what is in need of correcting, not my reading.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:What we do understand, PM, is that while you go out of your way to insult and belittle those trapped in that housing bubble, you make it clear that you admire the bankers and freemarket politicos that made the problem and created the trap that ensnared those poor folks.
Once again Bdgee, you're lack of reading skills are showing. I have posted on numerous occassion that I believe that bankers and banks that made risky loans should be allowed to fail.
what YOU don't understand is that when Enron failed? all the people that caused it to fail were recruited into the banks, they applied their trading strategies and (lack of) values to more financial markets and they share your attitude that (in general) people are stupid to rely on professionals for investing and RE advice.
even the experts did not see the bubble coming, did you watch the video this thread is about?
they didn't see it coming because they didn't expect China to stop buying mortgage backed paper.
i was negative about the rate of growth in RE prices, but i never expected to see them drop like this, this drop equates to the Great Depression, and that's not a bubble...
Enron is also the reason the mark to market rule was enacted, and that is a major portion of the current problem too...
allowing the banks to fail would put MORE financial burden on all taxpayers, you have forgotten the FDIC.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
What pizzes me off about it, the other day I saw Sen. Mitch say the 10% of the people that got behind on their payments caused this WHOLE mess... they don't have a clue. Even if, there shouldn't be a mess if 90% is all well and good. They're blaming, all this, on the 10% that got behind. Whatever helps you sleep at night McConnell.
Posts: 2634 | From: The highway | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
some back-story on why China stopped making the loans the RE market needed to keep going:
July 31, 2007, 7:15AM EST
Paulson's China Charm Offensive The Treasury Secretary has skill and connections, but his understated approach to financial diplomacy has yielded mixed results in China
Paulson is in China this week and will meet with President Hu on Aug. 1 at a time when trade hawks such as Senators Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) continue to push for punitive tariffs on Chinese imports if Beijing doesn't do more to rein in its swelling global trade surplus. And a year after the kickoff of the "strategic economic dialogue" between the U.S. and China, his softer approach hasn't yielded any big gains just yet. Here's a quick rundown of the thorny problems dividing both sides:
Good Cop, Bad Cop
While Paulson's charm offensive with Chinese officials continues apace, the Commerce Dept. is playing a far rougher game. Commerce currently has 62 anti-dumping orders on Chinese imports ranging from consumer goods to steel products and chemicals. "These orders represent 27% of the total anti-dumping orders we currently have in effect globally and cover almost $6 billion in imports," David Spooner, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Import Administration, told a congressional committee on July 25.
"What you don't understand is that people are responsible for their decisions and actions! Housing prices were enbroiled in a BUBBLE, which means they clearly reached unsustainable levels and yet the herd mentality allowed people to think they would continue to rise indefinitely."
_________________________________________________
It's called part of the American Dream to own your own house.
It's like putting a cup a soup in front of someone that has not eaten for days and then saying don't eat the whole cup of soup because it might be bad for you. Just doesn't work to well.
That word "reponsible" seems to be used very loosely after the fact. Yet when all these indivuals are making millions upon millions of dollars that word seems to pretty much be non existant.
Come on Propertymanager, do you really believe that we believe that you promote people being responsible.
Especially when you yourself are promoting a book that states "1 Minute to Rental Property Riches"!
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Especially when you yourself are promoting a book that states "1 Minute to Rental Property Riches"!
he probably justifies selling those to people on the basis that any idiot that thinks you'll get rich in a minute in anything deserves to lose their money...
i bet Madoff used the same justification to himself...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Lets not knock that snake oil too much. It's what Nolan Ryan used on his fingers for blisters that formed from throwing the 100 MPH fast ball.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
If you ever saw that thing live, there wasn't much need for it to move around. Almost no one could see it.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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