the only way she can mathematically win the nomination is if the "super" delegates go against both the pledged delegates and the general votes to elect her. statistically she cannot win either one...
if they do ignore the voters? i beleive McCain will be our next president, because he will be able to point out that she wasn't even elected by a majority of her own party. you democrats need to start writing letters to your party leaders.
i see her complaining that Obamma spent more money than her? LOL he has a million plus people donating small sums to him because they support him. i understand her campaign is broke? and she has an ex-President for a husband? what a joke. i can't beleive she's still embarassing her party by staying in.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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No biggie Obama said he was not going to win Clinton looks like she is trying to save a sinkinbg ship good for her
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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I'm not sure I agree with Rush's Operation Chaos crap; but as a republican, I hope they fight it out to the end. Both represent a move toward socialism that scares the willies out of me. Hillaries universal health coverage will bankrupt this nation and Barrak's willingness to yank the troops out of Iraq on day one just screams 'come hit us again.'
Polls(as much as you can trust any poll) already show that no matter who gets the party's nod, as much as 25% of Dem's will vote republican out of spite.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Both represent a move toward socialism that scares the willies out of me. Hillaries universal health coverage will bankrupt this nation and Barrak's willingness to yank the troops out of Iraq on day one just screams 'come hit us again.'
Polls(as much as you can trust any poll) already show that no matter who gets the party's nod, as much as 25% of Dem's will vote republican out of spite.
I wouldn't call it socialism but more like caring for your fellow human being... that's the problem with this country... it's always me me me me me... but anyways as for Universal Health Care coverage, you mean as opposed to no one or alot of people not being able to afford healthcare (let's face it, it's as as expensive as everything else now like food, gas, gold/platinum etc.) and us turning into a third world country eventually in terms of health and disease? ...
As for Obama and Iraq, if I remember correctly he said something recently about withdrawing them gradually and nothing about doing it all together from day one... and if they "hit us again" it won't be because they were there in Iraq before our invasion that is for sure... and if anything they will claim in propaganda that it's a victory due to them that we left no matter if we leave now or in 10 years... and my guess is that Al-Quaeda does not have the financial resources it used to have to carry out any significant attack on us anymore... a recent book that came out on the Bin Ladens shows that Osama Bin Laden only inherited about $20 Million when his father died... money like that can go quickly in terrorist operations and such... You might want to read it... it's a interesting book:
The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century by Steve Coll
As for polls and such, well campaigns can be heated among people whether Reps or Dems but in the end when the presidential election comes the Dems will unite whomever is the candidate because in the end they had enough of 8 yrs of GOP rule in the Whitehouse...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thanks for the book recommendation, may have to look it up on Amazon. I agree with you on the final note of your post. It all comes down to 'us' and 'them.' No more so than in elections. Sad but true. As far as your first note though, charity is only charity if it's voluntary; otherwise is just wealth redistrubution. That IS a socialist policy.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Democratic party already decided that Obama is going to be the nominee against Mcaine.
The only reason Clinton is still going is so all the media is set on Obama and clinton which are democrats....
If hillary dropped out...then Mcaine and the republicans would start the attacks on obama and the democrats right away. So Obama and Clinton are dragging this out on purpose to keep the main focus on Obama!.....
Posts: 2321 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Thanks for the book recommendation, may have to look it up on Amazon. I agree with you on the final note of your post. It all comes down to 'us' and 'them.' No more so than in elections. Sad but true. As far as your first note though, charity is only charity if it's voluntary; otherwise is just wealth redistrubution. That IS a socialist policy.
Charity alone will not keep the underprivileged afloat... we need a combination of Gov't aid and charity... but no matter if you admit it or not the wealthy do not give nearly enough to charity as they could... And I wouldn't call it socialist nor wealth redistribution because the money is not being taken by force from the wealthy.. they are paying taxes like everyone else.. poor , middle or wealthy... and people in need , need the $$ for aid more then some of us do and definetly more then the wealthy need... and if you look at history and other countries in which the Gov't do not aid the poor it leads to chaos and third worldism... do you want that to happen to this country? ... because trust me that is what will happen when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in a nation... history has shown that... plus wealth redistribution equates to social equality and that is not so phuckin true in this country that is for sure...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I have one sipmple solution take a look at your major cities accross the US. Notice how the poor are jobless and not even looking for jobs they put there hands out for govenment hand outs that isn't how this country was made. For anyone living here like they IMO they should be kicked out as they are draining tax payers money for the real people who actually need the money. People that are activily pursueeing a job I know of at least 10 people in my area that haven't had a job in over 3 years and they laugh at me for working. But when it comes to doing something I am the only one who can go out for a dirink so I get the last laugh. Anyway I feel that if Obama does get in the welfare system will be set up even better yet and people who work will be hurt more. JMO
Posts: 795 | From: Brown Deer, WI 53223 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Both represent a move toward socialism that scares the willies out of me.
i'm not really sure why anybody is afraid of US having socialist tendenceies.
i am a capitalist to the bone,
BUT:
1) we are the only industrialised nation in the world with a "capitalist" health care system
2) out of all those induatrialised nations? we are last in overall quality of health care
3) we are highest in infant mortality
4) there are several myths that foreigners flock here to get health care. yes there are a few very wealthy foreigners that come here for specific treatments but the reality is that many more Americans are leaving the US to get treatment where they can afford it overseas and the quality is there.
5) you are more likely to die from an infection acquired in a hospital stay than you are in a car accident. that's pretty bad considering how rarely we go to hospitals and how often we get in cars and accidents..
6) the avg life expectancy in the US has actually begun to decrease in the last few years. this has only ever been seen elsewhere in the world in sub-saharan Africa because of AIDS
7) we spend more of our GDP than any other country in the world for our health care.
all of these negatives are not really about doctor to nurse to patient health care. they are about the ADMINISTRATION of helath care, and quite frankly? we have too many middlemen.
there was a time in the US when we saw that decreasing midddlemen was a good thing. when i was a kid? i remember people using the term as if it was almost curse. now? everybody wants to be a middleman because it seems to imply that all you have to do is sit at a desk and "cut deals"....
please answer me this: since when does capitalism mean paying the most for the least?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: I'm not sure I agree with Rush's Operation Chaos crap; but as a republican, I hope they fight it out to the end. Both represent a move toward socialism that scares the willies out of me. Hillaries universal health coverage will bankrupt this nation and Barrak's willingness to yank the troops out of Iraq on day one just screams 'come hit us again.'
Polls(as much as you can trust any poll) already show that no matter who gets the party's nod, as much as 25% of Dem's will vote republican out of spite.
You do understand that we are a nation of 300 million in a world of 7 Billion and we spend more on healthcare RIGHT NOW than any other nation, right?
You do get that don't you?
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Just so I understand perspectives, how many of you have spent any real time outside of this country? I spent a couple of years in Brazil and I have to tell you, the 'poor' in this country have no idea what the term means. We have such high expectations of lifestyles that when anyone doesn't meet them (for whatever reason) we assume that something is wrong and must be corrected. How many of those on government aid have a car? How about a T.V.? Microwave? How many are in homes and not small apartments? How many are in debt up to their eyeballs in credit card debt? If it truly came down to eating or starving alot of people will work their fingers to the bone to survive. But we've got it in our heads that the luxuries we enjoy have become neccesities. Any of you college educated folks ever live on mac and cheese? Then you get the idea. You do what you have to to make ends meet. And when you make it through the tough times, you get the added bonus of being able to look at yourself in the mirror.
Glass, ever had an elective procedure performed? In socialist (government run\controlled) systems you could wait months or even years for it to be done if it's even approved. THAT is why foreigners come here. Ever go to a different doctor or dentist because you thought the one you were going to was wrong\less qualified? Not an option in those other systems. You take what the area has or wait on lists so long you may die before you get there. I won't argue the other points, our lifestyles and consumption habits have negatively impacted our health faster than medicine can compensate. It's nothing to do with the system, it's our decadence run amok.
Big, try adding in the taxes that other countries spend on their healthcare systems and then do a comparison. You may be surprised at the results.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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there is another issue of voter demographics that the Dems need to consider.
Hillary came into this campaign as the "incumbent" you can argue that all you want, but she would never have been elected as Senator to NY if it wasn't for her husband being president. fact is? she had never held office at anything before that and she moved to the only state besides Arkansas that would legally allow her to run.
here's the demographic issue. Hillary is winning votes in counties across the country where Mccain will win. she will not take his votes in the General. She will not win his counties. And? If she pushes Obama out of this race? She will lose the voters that have come out for Obama. The African Americans will not show up. They will be angry (i would be anyway) Then? You have the "young vote" Obama has this locked up. this vote crosses party lines. this is the key vote for Obama to win the general.
now? before you say young people are fickle, they may not show up. the "young vote" Obama has is not 25 and under it's actually people under 52 years old.
all in all? i've made my attitude plain for years as long as it's McCain V Obama? i'll be happy. I wanted McCain in '00 (not Dubya) and i think the Clintons have real problems with the truth. McCain worries me on several levels today, and so does Obamma but the Clintons are not trustworthy
Hillary managed to deflect her blatant and admitted lies about landing under sniper fire and make this Pennsylvania race about something completely undefinable (i personally think it's definable and unspeakable) IMO? Hillary used Rove tactics to win this election
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Glass, ever had an elective procedure performed? In socialist (government run\controlled) systems you could wait months or even years for it to be done if it's even approved. THAT is why foreigners come here. Ever go to a different doctor or dentist because you thought the one you were going to was wrong\less qualified? Not an option in those other systems. You take what the area has or wait on lists so long you may die before you get there. I won't argue the other points, our lifestyles and consumption habits have negatively impacted our health faster than medicine can compensate. It's nothing to do with the system, it's our decadence run amok.
actaully? i'm a veteran with full benefits and i have used the VA extensively.it was no worse than Kaiser, which i dropped after one year. i stopped using the VA after the current war started cuz i also have BCBS. when i was at the VA i spent a good deal of time in admins face telling them how screwed up they were when i thought they needed to hear it. they paid attention. it's interesting how mentioning your congressman or senator by full name gets peoples attention.
i have been in many third world countries, but comparing US to them is wrong. we are LAST in "first world countries" and we pay the most by far.
as for "elective procedures"? i don't have a clue what you're talking about. i have no interest in "elective procedures". i've turned down non-elective surgeries over and over again because of the risk. too many people don't have a clue how dangerous even supposedly minor surgery really is. my first job outa high school was blood drawer at one of the largest county hosp. in the US. i saw more than i wanted to see before i was 19.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Tell me, Glass, if you had access to the VA, why PAY for private insurance? Do you believe that your ability to find other options (possibly faster\better) made sense to avoid the government run plan? Hmm?
What do you consider first world then? Canada? England? France? Those are the very countries that are paying for that 'free' care through huge tax burdens on their people. How much of your income are you willing to give up so everyone can have mediocre health services?
By elective I mean anything that isn't aimed at immediately saving your life. Got a tooth ache? 3 month wait in nationalized system. Capitalist? For me it was 2 days. Want eye correction surgery for your cataracts? Socialized medicine...HAHHAHAHAHA. Capitalist...sure, pay the fee and we can do it next week. Many things that aren't life threatening can still be corrected using modern medicine to increase comfort or allow one to live a fuller life. The burden of caring for everyone is the prioritizing of care. Capitaistic answers allow for common care AND specialized.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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i will agree with you seekingfreedom that the poor in this country have it better than the poor in other places but the reason we don't is because people in this country used to be different.
This is the first time I have ever seen the American people be sheep and just take what was handed them.
Read our labor history things were bad and how did they solve them if necessary with violence and the threat of revolution and we made progress.
You know how many people gave there lives just for the 40 hour work week,a program like social security,and unemployment insurance.
To answer your question yes I have been outside of this country. I have seen the health plans in eourope and they work better than our system and once more you are not forced to use it you can buy private insurance like here if you want to.
Trouble is in this country tax payers money is still supporting corporate wellfare that durg companies milk the tax payer and call it free interprise. And sell the products back to us for the highs prices in the world after we paid for 87.5% of the cost.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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"tooth aches" are not elective. an infected tooth can in fact kill you in as little as two weeks, try again.
as for BCBS? i have the family plan.
under our current system? i have had private insurance doctors insist on performing surgery on me JUST to make more money. several times. i even had one interpret nerve conduction studies completely differently from several other doctors to justify this.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Tooth aches can be as simple as cavities, Glass. Not life threatening in the least. But painful as hell.
As for the family plan, kudos for taking care of your own. No sarcasm on this one. I really mean good for you.
Finally, there are corrupt people in all areas. To decry the system due to some of the memebers of it ignores all the good ones that do their best to make this world a better place.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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Finally, there are corrupt people in all areas. To decry the system due to some of the memebers of it ignores all the good ones that do their best to make this world a better place.
i would say the same to you to support my view.
tell me? if we extend your privatisation view "all the way" ?
would you be comfortable if we do away with Government Military entirely and just hire mercenaries like Blackwater for our National Defense?
we can open bidding next year. lowest bidder wins it. we'll turn over the nukes by the end of the next fiscal year.
ready for that?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Unfortunately, even though I live in PA I was unable to vote in yesterdays primary because PA has a closed primary system and registered independents cannot vote in either primary....
IMO, PA laws need to change so people like me who refuse to register with either party can still participate in the primaries.
If you feel jaded like I do about this, throw an email to Rep. Babette Josephs, Chair of the State Rules Committee. Her email is bjosephs*pahouse.net.
FWIW, If I thought Ron Paul had any chance at all I would picked the Rep. primaries and voted for him, but since voting for him is wasting a vote I would haved picked the Dem. primaries and voted Obama, but only to try to keep Billary from winning.
Also, regarding the current discussion, IMO, while I think giving everyone "Free" health care is in principal a good idea, it chaps my hide that Billary wants to pay for this "Free" health care by garnishing my wages or raising my taxes. I would rather keep that money for myself and spend it on more immediate needs for myself and my family...
I feel sorry for those that need health care now and cannot afford it, but callous as it may sound, my family and I come first.
And Glass? I am offended you spelled Pennsylvania wrong!!!
J/k
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i swear i learned how type right here. obvioulsy i slii heav smoe larnin ti dp
Well I expect as much from you anyway... Just look at your profile signature. It's full of typos....
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Just so I understand perspectives, how many of you have spent any real time outside of this country?
I have traveled extensively throughout the Western hemisphere and a good chunk of Europe besides. I am aware of people who have little in other countries. I am also aware that when something disrupts the 'system' they end up like the poor in Haiti who are eating 'mud cookies' in an attempt to survive. And don't you forget that we have our share of folks living under bridges in America too SF.
quote:Big, try adding in the taxes that other countries spend on their healthcare systems and then do a comparison. You may be surprised at the results.
huh?...WTF do you think I was speaking about?
Do you think I am *forgetting* to add in the taxes that support national healthcare systems in other countries? Perhaps I was only counting their $10 co-pays?
And don't try that bull about comparing our system to the one in Canada. You and I both know that Canada ranks last among countries with national healthcare plans.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: Unfortunately, even though I live in PA I was unable to vote in yesterdays primary because PA has a closed primary system and registered independents cannot vote in either primary....
IMO, PA laws need to change so people like me who refuse to register with either party can still participate in the primaries.
J/k
i've been thinking about this for th epast couple months.
i keep hearing how so many new voters are registering Democrat.
this increased dramatically after McCain won the nomination.
Rush Limbaugh is one sick puppy. there's nothing patriotic about this.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Veteran Pennsylvania pollster Terry Madonna expects some 100,000 new Democrats to vote on April 22, about 5% of the total expected to vote. In historic Gettysburg, Adams County Elections Supervisor Monica Dutko told the local newspaper, The York Daily Record, she was a seeing an unprecedented steady stream of switchers, some of whom volunteered they were changing registration from Republican to Democrat at the urging of Limbaugh.
Madonna, however, believes most of those new Dems will go for Obama, which goes against the Limbaugh conspiracy theory.
it doesn't appear to have worked that way...
here's another question. why is it that Hilary is broke and Obama has no problem raising money but Hillary wins more votes in the "big" states?
something doesn't add up because Obama has a record number of contributors, it's not about him getting big donors.
i think GOP's that would switch and vote for Hillary (sniper fire) Clinton in the primary expecting to vote for McCain in the General would never actually send her money.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Well, I want to make it clear I wouldn't switch parties because Rush Limbaugh told me to... I haven't listen to his show in years, (just in case you are still around Bdgee)...
I registered independent because I do not support either party, and in CA where I used to live, they have semi-open primaries where you are allowed to vote in one primary of your choosing. Seeing as how I don't vote along party lines, this allowed me to vote in the primaries for the person I though was best, or against whomever I considered the worst candidate.
I didn't know when I moved to PA that the laws were different, though considering the other backwards laws in this state I shouldn't have been surprised... You can wheel cases of 151 out of a liquor store here, but you can't buy more than 2 cases of beer at a time.
Regardless, had I known, I still would have registered independent, but it would have saved me a trip to the polling place.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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i wasn't suggesting you, i am concerned that there's a group of people in the country that ride the "Patriotic Magic Carpet" so to speak and haven't got an ounce of patriotism in them.
alot of these people were "born out of" the Reagan conservative movement.
yet? if we look carefully at our current problems in the middle-east? they can mostly be traced right to his refusal to invade Iran after they took our Embassy hostage for over a year, and his withdrawal from Lebanon after the Marine barracks was bombed. (i was "in" then)
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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..You mean "Patriotic Golden Carpet on Loan from God"...?
That is also part of the reason I registered independent. I want "the parties" to know I vote, but I don't play the whole "vote party lines" game.
I suppose in a way, in states with open or semi-open primaries, a registered independent would have an advantage over someone registered Republican or Democrat, and that could be taken advantage of by certian groups with an agenda, but in IMO, restricting voters to only one primary only promotes weaker canidates when the presidential election finally comes around...
...It really shouldn't be about "D to go forward" and "R to go reverse" as some would suggest but rather, who is the best person for the job.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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BigFoot, I apologize, I should have been clearer. What I meant was this:
Take your tax information for 2007. Find the lines that detail what you spent on medical costs (co-pays, insurance premiums, etc.). Take that number and find what percentage of your total income is was. I am willing to wager that it comes in under the percentage of the average citizen in these nationalized medicine countries income that goes to pay for their 'free' health care. What the country itself pays out isn't as important as the impact it has on each consumer's bottom line.
Bond, yes, they can buy private insurance as well...at additional cost. They don't get a tax break by opting out. They pay fully for the nationalized system and then pay again for private. Yeah, that's a good option.
Finally, Glass, the fully capitalizing example is as assinine as fully nationalizing everything. That leads to government mandated job placement and other programs that Lenin would have been proud of. No glass business for you, Big Brother thinks you'll be better as a corn farmer to help with out ethanol plan.
Each has a place in it's own sphere.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: ..You mean "Patriotic Golden Carpet on Loan from God"...?
That is also part of the reason I registered independent. I want "the parties" to know I vote, but I don't play the whole "vote party lines" game.
I suppose in a way, in states with open or semi-open primaries, a registered independent would have an advantage over someone registered Republican or Democrat, and that could be taken advantage of by certian groups with an agenda, but in IMO, restricting voters to only one primary only promotes weaker canidates when the presidential election finally comes around...
...It really shouldn't be about "D to go forward" and "R to go reverse" as some would suggest but rather, who is the best person for the job.
Good for you NR... Hopefully others will follow your example and PA will have to change the rules to accommodate the large independant population.
Though I know many here have me pegged firmly in one camp I am an independant as well for the same reason.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: BigFoot, I apologize, I should have been clearer. What I meant was this:
Take your tax information for 2007. Find the lines that detail what you spent on medical costs (co-pays, insurance premiums, etc.). Take that number and find what percentage of your total income is was. I am willing to wager that it comes in under the percentage of the average citizen in these nationalized medicine countries income that goes to pay for their 'free' health care. What the country itself pays out isn't as important as the impact it has on each consumer's bottom line.
Thank you for clarifying your point SF. I understand now what you are saying. Unfortunately, that will be true in healthy years and give you a false sense of security. When your cancer hits and the company starts looking carefully at your file as to which costs they can disallow, you may be surprised at just how sparse your coverage really is.
Besides...I understand that you want to examine the numbers at the individual payer level...but your number is incomplete.
We will take the number that you have found on your 2007 tax forms and then add 1/5th of the national budget(what we spend on Medicare and Medicaid) divided by the number of taxpayers.
Take that new number and add the amount your state spends on medical and emergency room services divided by the number of taxpayers in your state.
Take your new total and attempt to get accurate information from the Pentagon and D.C. about how much they spent on health care for Veterans and our elected representatives last year and divide that amount by the number of taxpayers.
Now we are starting to get close to an accurate number that reflects what the average American citizen pays for health care in this country.
But if we want to be accurate we should really call up the statistics of the major medical non-profit and charity organizations and add the amount of money they spent aiding families who were under-covered or uncovered for their medical needs. It isn't a direct correlation but it does keep expenses out of the system that would have been picked up by one end or the other.
To be conservative lets divide that amount by the number of taxpayers, and then cut it in half because many of these people probably wouldn't have gotten the care they did without these organizations and would either be dead or still living with whatever it is that was ailing them.
All these things will be wrapped together under a national healthcare system. Are you still thinking you are coming out ahead SF?
I agree switching over is a big change and that there will be problems. This is why I like Obama's plan better than Hillary's. His doesn't go quite as far out on the limb right away like her plan. It will give us time to adjust and fix problems before going whole hog like Hilary want to do. But it will make better economic and physiologic sense once implemented.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Take your tax information for 2007. Find the lines that detail what you spent on medical costs (co-pays, insurance premiums, etc.). Take that number and find what percentage of your total income is was. I am willing to wager that it comes in under the percentage of the average citizen in these nationalized medicine countries income that goes to pay for their 'free' health care. What the country itself pays out isn't as important as the impact it has on each consumer's bottom line.
this easy to cacklack, and your argument still comes up short. you would lose your wager and lose it by a large margin
furthermore? your condescending use of the term "free" shows how narrow you beleive some of our minds to be.
we spend the most per person for the for the least of all industrialised countries.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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France best, US worst in preventable death ranking Tue Jan 8, 2008 12:15am ES
WASHINGTON, Jan 8 (Reuters) - France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday.
If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.
Researchers Ellen Nolte and Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine tracked deaths that they deemed could have been prevented by access to timely and effective health care, and ranked nations on how they did.
They called such deaths an important way to gauge the performance of a country's health care system.
Nolte said the large number of Americans who lack any type of health insurance -- about 47 million people in a country of about 300 million, according to U.S. government estimates -- probably was a key factor in the poor showing of the United States compared to other industrialized nations in the study.
"I wouldn't say it (the last-place ranking) is a condemnation, because I think health care in the U.S. is pretty good if you have access. But if you don't, I think that's the main problem, isn't it?" Nolte said in a telephone interview.
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