posted
Why is the government involved in fighting that polygamy sect in Texas and why aren't all you socialists up in arms about it? I am absolutely against the government being on a fishing expedition of this religion!
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Did fake complaint prompt raid on polygamist sect? DENVER POST 04/19/2008
Denver — A former polygamist sect member says a Colorado Springs woman who called her, posing as a young abused girl, could be the same person whose complaints led to a massive child-protection raid in west Texas.
Flora Jessop, a former member of the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, said she first received a call on March 30 from a woman since identified as Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, claiming to be an abuse victim named Sarah. Jessop operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect.
Authorities say a girl who identified herself as Sarah called a San Angelo, Texas, hot line on March 29, claiming she was 16 years old and "spiritually married" to a man who would "beat and hurt her" whenever he became angry. The hot line call wasn't publicized until after authorities raided the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, on April 4. There, they took custody of more than 400 children.
Swinton, 33, was arrested at her home Wednesday on charges of false reporting in two Colorado cases. Texas Rangers were present for the arrest "as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas," a Colorado Spring police news release said.
Texas Rangers spokesman Tom Vinger said Friday he could not comment about Swinton.
Meanwhile, in San Angelo Friday, state District Judge Barbara Walther ruled that children taken from the ranch will stay in state custody and be subject to genetic testing. The ruling followed 21 hours of testimony over two days.
quote:Originally posted by bond006: All I know is all these wacko's in these cults the men in charge always get the women. Seems that is an M.O.
one of the women interviewed said she was was worried that her kids were now being subjected to the very things things they were living in the compound trying to protect the families from: porn,sex, drugs, rocknroll, tv, gambling etc...
my understanding of the foster kids program in general is that it should be a last resort option.
i'm not of the personal view that isolation is the best way to protect kids, but i don't spend much energy making other people raise kids the way i think they oughta...
if it turns out that 400+ kids were taken from their parents because somebody gave a false statement to the police? that person should go to jail for quite awhile. and we have some serious questions to ask about why a warrant was issued.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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quote:PM, weren't you the guy telling us the government is great and trustworthy and they never do things... Just like this?
No, I don't think government is great - I think it is WAY too big. However, I don't think the government is after me.
This polygamy sect fiasco is clearly a case of a local government run amuck! Taking these children away would be like a complaint of one child being abused in a small town and the government taking every child out of the town. That's insane!
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PM the point has always been that sooner or later they will come after you... me.. Everyone. It's so easy in this country, and the government has done an amazing job of making us see anyone as "Them". Oh it's ok to take rights away and to imprison for no reason.. because it happened to "Them", not "Us". That is exactly what has happened here.
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The other part of the point is that this problem with the government is getting worse. Everyday we have fewer and fewer unregulated freedoms. Unregulated freedom is exactly what I mean because if you look at the bill of rights, which of those rights are actually rights anymore, and which ones are closely regulated to the point they are no longer rights but allowed transgressions against the state. Do you have the right to possess and bear arms? Or is that regulated and discouraged to the point that it becomes an allowed transgression? If you have to fill out and application and ask permission, then it is no longer a right.
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a little while back? i pointed out that we have always had a peaceful change of power after elections. except the civil war thing which was not so much about a coup as it was about a confederacy.
anyway one of th reponses was that the Presidency would have to rely on the military to pull off a coup and the military would never do that cuz they have family etc.
well? the military is a-changing fast. between "contractors" and lowered recruiting standards where felons are being inducted? where the Air Force seems to be flaunting the the authority of the Sec Nav and shipping Nukes around the county "by accident", and even sending nuke parts overseas to Taiwan "by accident"?
i'm beginning to become a little concerned. no, i'm not worried that Dubya is planning on on extending his stay in the White House, i'm just seeing that things are working toward a place and time where that possibility becomes much more likely than it is today
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Yeah I never bought into the theory that Bush would try to hold on to his position. Quite frankly I don't think he's the one in charge. I don't think any of the presidents are in charge. The trendline from freedom to incarceration is way too smooth for there to have been any sort of policy cycles.
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Whatever prompted the raid in Texas (crazy lady or girl that got 'disappeared' right after) think about a couple of things when you judge this case. First, the group moved their hq there from the four corners area due to the age of consent being 14 (according to a news cast I saw, unconfirmed but fishy if true) until recently. Next, the group rakes in millions of dollars in welfare and wic money because only one marriage per man is actually legally recognized. The rest are 'church' marriages that allows them to claim themselves and single parent families to bring in the money. Money you and I are paying through taxes. Also, one of the 'children' taken away was a 16 year old who already has 4 kids! Even with the 14 yrs age of consent, that one looks like child rape to me.
The right to practice religion is based on the premise that certain laws trump your beliefs. Sharia law cannot be used as an excuse for murder here (yet). We cannot allow these children to be abused (sexually or otherwise) because these guys say it's their religion. Sometimes big G has to step in and actually due something to protect those who cannot do it themselves.
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A coup is always a possible act in any country under different infulences and reasons call it what you will a civil war is one thing,fear of a certian element and a strong power needs to rule.
Some times things change fast and what looks unlikley today may seem very rational in our changing world tomarrow.
In other words it would not surprise me at all if the powers at be give something like a coup in the near furture.
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Whatever prompted the raid in Texas (crazy lady or girl that got 'disappeared' right after) think about a couple of things when you judge this case. First, the group moved their hq there from the four corners area due to the age of consent being 14 (according to a news cast I saw, unconfirmed but fishy if true) until recently. Next, the group rakes in millions of dollars in welfare and wic money because only one marriage per man is actually legally recognized. The rest are 'church' marriages that allows them to claim themselves and single parent families to bring in the money. Money you and I are paying through taxes. Also, one of the 'children' taken away was a 16 year old who already has 4 kids! Even with the 14 yrs age of consent, that one looks like child rape to me.
The right to practice religion is based on the premise that certain laws trump your beliefs. Sharia law cannot be used as an excuse for murder here (yet). We cannot allow these children to be abused (sexually or otherwise) because these guys say it's their religion. Sometimes big G has to step in and actually due something to protect those who cannot do it themselves.
That's not exactly the point. Officials were victim to a prank call. That's fine. But what they do next is the problem. They do not verify the information. They do rush in and eagerly round up the whole lot. When it is disclosed that the initial call was a prank, they do not release anyone. I would not be suprised... in fact I fully expect that there was no call in the first place.
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agreed: cops shouldn't call in their own complaints (in lieu of witnessing a crime).
but, gotta admit...these folks could be a lil more forthcoming, instead of "I don't want to answer potentially embarrassing questions."
I could care less whether they worship worms, pond scum, or Crescent wrenches...but if girls are actually being brow-beaten into trumped-up, bullchit marriages just so some 60-year-old bull-goose-loon can get some teen twanky...
well, that ain't religion anymore than I can "create" a religion that says armed robbery is OK, so you can prosecute for taking down that stoopid-azz liquor store.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Relentless, remember their leader just got a rape as accomplice conviction here in Utah for coercing the 'marriage' of an underage girl to her cousin. Not a big leap to believe a call that it's going on in Texas. One plus one can still equal two.
And Glass, it's an on-going investigation. They're not going to list the evidence till trial.
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I'm not at all saying that what went on in that compound was legal or moral. That hasn't been my point nor is it the point of this issue. The government wants you to see nothing more than that. They want you to see what good can happen, what evil can be trampled when they stretch if not break the rules. The fact of this matter is that the government has been on a crusade.. not against crime or evil men, but against the rules that force their morality and ensure our freedom.
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If that's truly how you see it, Relentless, then surprisingly I would agree with you.
Good ol' Ben said it best...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
However, as far as the stories that I've read on it so far state, they had a legally obtained warrant for the raid. The raid was challenged by the lawyers for the church and the standing judge upheld the warrant and the following acts. No, 'rules' were stretched, let alone broken.
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Relentless, remember their leader just got a rape as accomplice conviction here in Utah for coercing the 'marriage' of an underage girl to her cousin. Not a big leap to believe a call that it's going on in Texas. One plus one can still equal two.
And Glass, it's an on-going investigation. They're not going to list the evidence till trial.
so where did you get your "evidence"?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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RD...there isn't a conflict on this one. Fact is this was a problem that should have (could have) been stopped long ago.
Polygamy is illegal. This group is a closed community that accepts and even exhorts polygamy. Therefore even those who live at the ranch who are not currently practicing polygamy are guilty as accomplice's in promoting an illegal activity.
Given the sexual nature of that crime by itself removal of children pending outcome of trial is warranted. Especially given the uncooperative nature of the subjects.
As to the initial raid...They had a warrant to look for the girl and uncover evidence of her abuse. That they did not find the girl is not an issue other than the woman who made the fake call should be charged with fraud. They were there under legal pretext and while under legal pretext discovered other criminal evidence.
That is how the chain of evidence is supposed to work.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues.
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Bigfoot, if you re-read what it was that I wrote I'm hoping you'll clearly see that I in no way agree with these people. I don't believe what they were doing was right. Truthfully I don't care. My only assertion was to the government's actions. Shady at best. No caller ID? Really? No questions as to the validity of the call? How many innocent people are jailed every year... everyday because of prank calls? A prank call cannot and should not be justification for a police raid... AND SURELY not a raid of this proportion. Again: Child scrogging freaks with weird hats... BAD Trigger happy government.... BAD
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the "litmus test" is if the cops beleived the caller to be telling the truth. the problem is that a Colorado area code on the caller would make that a definite NO...
heck i have caller ID and i'm a cheapskate.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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