Bush requested additional 20-30,000 troops for the surge last year, and said it was only temp. Then the department of defense raised for the Army its tours from 12 months to 15 months. This actually happened to my unit.
Now he is saying they are NOT going to pull the surge troops out, and as a way to "relieve" the strain on the Army he will bring the tours from 15 months to 12 months (oh thank you so fu**in much bush for that great reduction back to one year deployment in iraq)
these troops are sick of this. i just got out monday, and a ton of guys in my unit did as well. nobody wants to stay in anymore, and the only people you will see really talking that great about the war are generally officers writing public speeches to please their higher ups.
over 5 years now.....how much more to we have to give or sacrifice?
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Just seems like many americans are giving up and becoming immune to the war and our troops.
This immunity and loss of interest by the people is partly due to our President, Congressman and Senators not bothering with the majority of people wishes.
The other part is the length of the war. Just not the interest in it when it was new news.
Those are the sad parts because the soldiers keep putting their lives on the line with no end in sight.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I never liked it there, and nobody in my company of 73 men liked it there either. We were all on our second tour this last round in Baghdad and none of us even wanted to be there.
We were told the same thing over and over by higher ups. Only the officers believed in the mission and I believe that was due to them having to in order to move up in rank.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Only the officers believed in the mission and I believe that was due to them having to in order to move up in rank.
it's always been that way.
when i was in the Navy? my first ships captain was older and politically connected, he got all the plum cruises, and he "sidestepped" a lot of problems.
my second ship's captain was young and eager, he volunteered for everything.
in the Navy in peace time, this can be the difference between sitting off the coast for 90 days watching little smuggling boats and being tied up in a liberty port where a 10$ bill could get you everything you could want for a whole night, for most of that time...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agree with you guys my experience is that only the officers liked the mission because that is the way they got ahead.
Its like the retail business at christmas time.
Look at all the over worked clerks tired people take every thing out on them.
then look at the store manager just counting the money all day and figuring out what his bonus is and if he does good enough for the year agood promotion.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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"I agree with you guys my experience is that only the officers liked the mission because that is the way they got ahead." _________________________________________________
My experience was a little different than yours.
In the most part everyone just did what they had to do to survive and carry out most orders.
I had a lot of respect for almost all the officers that i served with directly.
I had even more respect for most of the medics. Those medics go way beyond what their duty calls for.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I was listenig to kgo radio 810 am last nite I could not sleep for some reason.
There news said that congress was getting 50,000 calls a day from folks that wanted to know if they could get there tax rebate early. these were calls of demand.
I was thinking if American took every issue this serious we might get things done and our congress would pay attention to us.
Oh well the power of 600 bucks amazing is it not.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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First, I greatly appreciate your service to our country and respect your right to say what you like.
However, I don't remember President Bush ever promising any specific troop levels at any time. I remember him saying that he expected the surge troops to be out this summer, which is what is happening. Depending on which news report you believe, all but about 8,000 of the surge troops will be out by July, bringing the the total troop level to about 140,000, or 8,000 above the pre-surge level.
quote:Only the officers believed in the mission and I believe that was due to them having to in order to move up in rank
I would like to point out that we have an all-volunteer military. No-one has to be there. If anyone doesn't wan't to serve the military under the direction of the President, then they shouldn't be in the military. That's the job.
quote:Look at all the over worked clerks tired people take every thing out on them...then look at the store manager just counting the money all day and figuring out what his bonus is and if he does good enough for the year agood promotion.
That's funny, but it shows just how brain-washed many people are by the socialists. Store managers don't just sit counting the money all day and counting their bonuses. Managers have a myriad of things to do each day that affect the bottom line. They have infinitely more responsibility than a clerk, which is why they are more highly paid and receive a bonus!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Well property, he never did promise any troop levels you are correct.
However, my situation is mild compared to some others. I signed up for a 4 year enlistment and did 3 overseas deployments, and was stop lossed over my original contract. Now if this was Germany in ww2, OR if they would openly admit we need to secure petroleum reserves for vital national security interests then it would be different.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't remember President Bush ever promising any specific troop levels at any time. I remember him saying that he expected the surge troops to be out this summer, which is what is happening.
once again, you have missed the real point.
CCM got out this week. as in, he now has his freedom of speech restored (mostly anyway)...
point being? the troops aren't quite as happy about the situation as you and Bush want US to believe. this? i already knew from talking face to face to many that have already been and came back.
if you talk to Spec Force people? (and most Marines) you'll find they love the work and will either re-up with astronomical bonuses, or they'll go to a "contractor", like blackwater, for even more money.
Spec Force people live for action(and most Marines) ,i have deep respect for them having spent many years living amongst them, but if there's no action? they get themselves in the worst kinds of trouble "making action", it's just the way they are.
the all-volunteer model is failing due to the fact that most people have begun to realise that there is no definition of winning this war, and nobody wants to participate in an endless war, except the ones that love "missions" like spec forces. they'd rather do "live training" than practice training...
this is why McCain will not likely win this fall. Once again? all the respect in the world doesn't change the nature of the Warrior. I expect he would get into office and make things worse.
AQI (alqueda Iraq) by Petraeus's own admission never was and is NO more than 2000 men. we have 150,000 troops and 12 billion$ a month going to wage war on less than 2000 men? that's insanity.
Pull down? and Iraqi's will take care of themselves. keep 35 thousand troops with full air support and we can mop up "flare ups" ..
let the Iraqi's fledge.
if they screw up? we'll go back. but staying is not winning, it's just a slow chronic hemorhage. and our presence is making US more enemies than friends by a large margin.
our worldwide combat readiness is severely damaged right now, but we can no more admit that than Sadam could admit he didn't have WMD
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Does not matter what bush said I wish he would crawl back in the toilet where he belongs
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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"I would like to point out that we have an all-volunteer military. No-one has to be there. If anyone doesn't wan't to serve the military under the direction of the President, then they shouldn't be in the military. That's the job." _________________________________________________
Your statement makes it sound so simple and correct. Wish it was that way in war and politics it would make it much easier for our troops.
I do think the American troops in Iraq are a nicer and more behaved group than many combat troops were in Vietnam, from what i have heard.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Your statement makes it sound so simple and correct.
It is simple and correct. If you don't want to serve in the military and be sent to Iraq, don't join up. That seems simple to me!
Mike
they aren't. that was the point. and it's NOT because they aren't patriotic. it's because they won't follow a leader who's an idiot. re-enlistment and enlistment quotas have been reduced dramatically over the last few years. signing bonuses have sky-rocketed.
i pointed out that certain groups of people that will follow anybody as long a they are headed for "action" but they are becoming an "elitist" kind of military.
before 9-11? many Spec Force people were refusing to re-enlist because they were being required to sign posse comitatus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act statements/redefinitions upon re-enlistment that they didn't like. the military we are being left with will be very different from the one we entered this war with, and the "mercenaries" will be an even greater departure from anything we have ever seen in this country before, except maybe for the ten year period right after the Civil War. we call them Militia's in Iraq, but if they are US? we call them "contractors" think about THAT for awhile...
after 9-11 we had a resurgence of real Patriotism, but Bush has squandered that and even gone so far as to take an overdraft on the account. you can say don't join, or "he didn't promise" all you want, but the fact is? keeping an all-volunteer military is just like running a business. and we all know Bush was a failure in business too.
A large portion of the equipment in Iraq now would be abandoned tomorrow because it is so worn out it's not worth transporting home. Our reserve units equipment has been left there on each deployment and has to be replaced at home.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Glassman has made some good points and the main one 9-11.
Your point is made simple because that's the way you want it.
1. It is not that easy to get out of the service before your normal or extended enlistment is up. At least not without major consequences in most cases.
2. Our President-Representatives are disobeying our orders. We The People as a majority i believe do not feel we should be in Iraq anymore. But our representatives could care less.
Our soldiers are far more honorable than those that supposedly represent us.
3. Our government enticed most of these soldiers to join(different promises) but i bet you there was nothing said that Iraq would be the soldiers main home. What do you think would happen on a regular job if this happened. I only make this point because you want to make the military sound like a normal job.
4. Some of the worst jobs in the Military(Infantry etc.) are not having the re-enlistmant rates they need so they are changing some of the mos's to fill the void. And in this job it can be deadly.
5. Soldiers in combat tend to feel a guilt when they leave soldiers behind. This same guilt is counted on by our representatives in getting re-enlistments when soldiers really know much better. When you count on each other to stay alive, it has to be very hard to want to bail on your unit when it is going back to combat, even if your enlistment is up. (you might not even feel this immediately)
Your simple analysis is your way of justifying the war. Just as others use the analysis if we don't fight them in Iraq then we will fight them here.
I think most know what the outcome in Iraq will be and have known for a long time. Unless they change the strategy in a big way there is no hope for justifying this war and it's casualties.
To clarify what i mean by justify. If we had went in a just given the Iraq people a chance to choose their own fate by staying on the outskirts after the intial push then i think i could have justified that.
quote:Originally posted by bond006: I agree with you guys my experience is that only the officers liked the mission because that is the way they got ahead.
Its like the retail business at christmas time.
Look at all the over worked clerks tired people take every thing out on them.
then look at the store manager just counting the money all day and figuring out what his bonus is and if he does good enough for the year agood promotion.
Don't remind me... I experience this one first hand... :: rolls eyes :: Except I'm in sales and not a clerk...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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That's funny, but it shows just how brain-washed many people are by the socialists. Store managers don't just sit counting the money all day and counting their bonuses. Managers have a myriad of things to do each day that affect the bottom line. They have infinitely more responsibility than a clerk, which is why they are more highly paid and receive a bonus!
Seriously, stop being such a azz as usual. All liberals are not socialists anymore so to say that all conservatives such as yourself are facsists. And also not everyone that talks about the plights of the common man worker is a Liberal. Some are conservatives, but have a heart. Unlike you. But as for retail clerks and/or people in retail in general. I work in commission retail sales in jewelry and trust me when I saw you do not know what you are talking about. The managers do work alot of hours but so do their support staff and only the managers reap the financial awards. And for the most part in my field at least in specialized merchandise the managers mainly do simple tasks that imo does not warrant getting big bonuses such as:
1. Opening and closing store ( I was offered the job of keyholder but without the manager title or bonus.. i turned them down at my current company but was keyholder at my previous company)
2. Paperwork (I do some of the paperwork already again with no bonus)
3. Customer service issues (we all do this)
4. Deposit the money at the bank (i did this a couple of times and all the time in a previous company)
Etc. etc.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: I do think the American troops in Iraq are a nicer and more behaved group than many combat troops were in Vietnam, from what i have heard.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: I don't remember President Bush ever promising any specific troop levels at any time. I remember him saying that he expected the surge troops to be out this summer, which is what is happening.
once again, you have missed the real point.
CCM got out this week. as in, he now has his freedom of speech restored (mostly anyway)...
point being? the troops aren't quite as happy about the situation as you and Bush want US to believe. this? i already knew from talking face to face to many that have already been and came back.
if you talk to Spec Force people? (and most Marines) you'll find they love the work and will either re-up with astronomical bonuses, or they'll go to a "contractor", like blackwater, for even more money.
Spec Force people live for action(and most Marines) ,i have deep respect for them having spent many years living amongst them, but if there's no action? they get themselves in the worst kinds of trouble "making action", it's just the way they are.
the all-volunteer model is failing due to the fact that most people have begun to realise that there is no definition of winning this war, and nobody wants to participate in an endless war, except the ones that love "missions" like spec forces. they'd rather do "live training" than practice training...
this is why McCain will not likely win this fall. Once again? all the respect in the world doesn't change the nature of the Warrior. I expect he would get into office and make things worse.
AQI (alqueda Iraq) by Petraeus's own admission never was and is NO more than 2000 men. we have 150,000 troops and 12 billion$ a month going to wage war on less than 2000 men? that's insanity.
Pull down? and Iraqi's will take care of themselves. keep 35 thousand troops with full air support and we can mop up "flare ups" ..
let the Iraqi's fledge.
if they screw up? we'll go back. but staying is not winning, it's just a slow chronic hemorhage. and our presence is making US more enemies than friends by a large margin.
our worldwide combat readiness is severely damaged right now, but we can no more admit that than Sadam could admit he didn't have WMD
Wow, something I can agree with Glass on lol awww I do detect a little Liberal in you after all...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sun Tzu wrote the Art of War over 2000 years ago. even tho the weapons have changed? people haven't, the economy of war hasn't. he was a realist. not a conservative, not a liberal, he just looked at the problem and came up with a plan that would work.
and? his most important advice? he stated that:
Therefore one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the most skillful. Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Highwaychild: They need to start drafting a quota of these Senator's sons and Congress' sons.
There should be a percentage of the ones that vote on wars to have their own over there.
It's too easy for them to send others over there that the system may have broke,
than send their own fortunate sons.(and VERY unfortunately, daughters)
Fat chance this will happen ever. If any one of their kids join the military and such it is for a political motive in mind. But if their kids were forced to join the military and not just for photo ops like Princess Diana/Prince Charle's son you would see how fast we would get out of Iraq or not even go there in the first place...
By the way are you a CCR fan?
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: why does this make me liberal?
Sun Tzu wrote the Art of War over 2000 years ago. even tho the weapons have changed? people haven't, the economy of war hasn't. he was a realist. not a conservative, not a liberal, he just looked at the problem and came up with a plan that would work.
and? his most important advice? he stated that:
Therefore one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the most skillful. Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful.
I was being sarcastic calling you a Liberal Glass... gee you no fun.. And here's some Art of War for you that applies to us being in Iraq right now:
1. The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities... It is best to win without fighting.
2. What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
3. Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
4. It is best to keep one’s own state intact; to crush the enemy’s state is only second best.
5. There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.
6. A leader leads by example not by force.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I was aware of incidents like you have stated and more but overall they seem to be a well behaved group. Maybe it's because they don't have those draftee's messing things up like Vietnam. They were a group of un-controlable civilians at heart.
I was really never referring to those type of incidents mention by you although they did happen.
Upper military really never liked the idea of draftee's or reservists as their main source of troops for regular operations. But it appears that using reservists and extending terms of regular army is the only way they can continue this war and keep the numbers the way they want them.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:The managers do work alot of hours but so do their support staff and only the managers reap the financial awards. And for the most part in my field at least in specialized merchandise the managers mainly do simple tasks that imo does not warrant getting big bonuses such as:
1. Opening and closing store ( I was offered the job of keyholder but without the manager title or bonus.. i turned them down at my current company but was keyholder at my previous company)
2. Paperwork (I do some of the paperwork already again with no bonus)
3. Customer service issues (we all do this)
4. Deposit the money at the bank (i did this a couple of times and all the time in a previous company)
If the manager only does simple tasks, then why don't you work hard enough to become a manager so that you can get the bonuses and reap the financial rewards? It seems like a no-brainer to me.
The answer of course is that the store manager does a lot more than perform menial tasks. The manager is responsible for the overall functioning and performance of the store. He is also responsible for the actions of the people that he is managing; for the inventory; for the money that it taken in; and to ensure that the store generates a profit. He is judged (and compensated) on the performance of the store, not simply the number of hours he puts in.
Lower level employees almost never understand this!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:after 9-11 we had a resurgence of real Patriotism, but Bush has squandered that and even gone so far as to take an overdraft on the account.
Just after 911, the country was in shock over the attack. However, the American people have a very short attention span and have largely forgotten about 911, as they always do. What many of the American people are too ignorant to realize is that we're on an escalating path with radical Islam. These people are DETERMINED to kill us and our country becoming a bunch of pacifists won't change that. You may recall that these people made a sincere attempt to bring down the twin towers in 1993. That should have been a serious wake-up call, but the country just wanted to treat them as common criminals. Within 7 years, the country had gone back to sleep. This same stupidity is occurring right now. The American people are back to sleep and we will soon be waiting for the next attack. The big difference is that next time, it will probably be nuclear or biological and we'll wake up one morning to find out that tens of thousands of New Yorkers are dead. I believe this would have already happened if President Bush didn't have the terrorists all tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We'll soon have a socialist as President and Al Qaeda will have the green light to plan and implement their biggest attack yet! When that happens, it will be the fault of the socialists, who didn't have the stomach to fight the enemy on their turf!
It would be nice if every war could be fought and won in a short period of time. Unfortunately, we are dealing with an enemy that has a long term perspective. Whether it takes a decade or a thousand years, they are determined to kill us. The fact that you pacifists want to hold hands and sing songs doesn't change that!
Posts: 1577 | From: Ohio | Registered: Oct 2007
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