quote:Originally posted by T e x: Actually, what drives us--and confounds us--is the effort to balance greed against altruism.
Within that hornscrew, principles clash against practicalities.
Greed is only short-term practical. Long-term? DNA-model succeeds.
And, yes, I invoke the 11th Commandment... [/QB]
You should be invoking the 5th amendment instead Tex lol jk Anyways Greed is what drives us nothing else... everything else is just conversation... when we are drowning in the ocean and fighting to live we are greedy for life... when we are trying to woo another guy's gf you may be greedy for love or sex... the financial markets.. no need to explain etc.. etc... this country was built on Greed not democracy and we continue doing things for Greed to try to stay in #1...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
posted
The thing I don’t understand especially coming from you Machiavelli is the idea that greed is good.
From what I have read from your statements over time does not make me think that you really feel it is a good thing. Especially coming from your roots.
I know your signature states "Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD." but there is a better word for what you are saying at least i think so.
After reading how you feel about different issues it does not seem your signature fits you.
There were issues like aid, US companies in foreign lands etc. Some of the economics of South America, Costa Rica, Mexico etc. You have talked about how the wealth is distributed within some of those countries and how unfair it can be.
To me it does not matter one way or the other but it does seem to me that you have more compassion for people than to think greed is really a good thing.
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"It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism."
This statement above i do not know about. It was just part of the post but i am sure others would be more than happy to discuss it.
As far as the stock market is concerned not sure what people call what we try to do.
But what i am very sure about is that many people call the stock market many things depending on what kind of day or year they are having.
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"we are all greedy in one way or another especially when it comes to stocks and the financial markets... if we weren't we wouldn't bother to try to make money at it...."
That is one of the biggest falsehoods ever put forth. It is the way the self centered excuse away their egotistical point of view. It's as illogical and emotionally immature as the claim that without religion (or some particular religion) to make one do so, there is no reason to be honorable or virtuous. Truly honorable virtuous people are so as a result of their basic character and may be found in all religious doctrines or without.
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quote:Originally posted by T e x: Actually, what drives us--and confounds us--is the effort to balance greed against altruism.
Within that hornscrew, principles clash against practicalities.
Greed is only short-term practical. Long-term? DNA-model succeeds.
And, yes, I invoke the 11th Commandment...
You should be invoking the 5th amendment instead Tex lol jk Anyways Greed is what drives us nothing else... everything else is just conversation... when we are drowning in the ocean and fighting to live we are greedy for life... when we are trying to woo another guy's gf you may be greedy for love or sex... the financial markets.. no need to explain etc.. etc... this country was built on Greed not democracy and we continue doing things for Greed to try to stay in #1... [/QB]
The fifth? lol, that covers a l-o-t of ground...
I think we're playing semantics, here. To me, fighting for your life has nothing to do with greed, per se: although to write that someone in that situation suddenly "felt greedy for life" might be well received under the terms of artistic license...it's an equivocation in service to metaphor.
Girlfriends? The Code is, you never mess with somebody's wife, and you don't hit on your friends' girlfriends. Doing so doesn't qualify you as greedy nearly so much as needy...a needy prick who may be the subject of an imminent 911 call...or at least a bloody nose, lol...
No when I think of greed, I think Gecko from whence your siggy originates. In the sense that a touch of greed might inspire one to become a trader and take some risks...nothing wrong with that. But then we've all seen traders--perhaps including "us" in early days--who seem unable to take profit and walk away...and what happens to them? Blinded by greed, they get wiped out...
And Gecko, the character, showed how unmitigated greed leads to immoral, life-damaging crises. Imagine being so immoral as to take a viable company and instead of tuning it up and helping folks? the raider holds a fire sale and ruins people's lives simply to make more dough for him/her/self... Shameful. Bad, bad karma...
One of the travesties of the modern era to me is that Ken Lay's conviction got set aside because he died. Do I want his grandkids to suffer the shame he should have felt? No, I'm not greedy for vengeance. But his progeny should be taught Grandaddy did a bad, bad thing...Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be swindlers. Is one thing to hustle a lil pool, cuz 99.99% of the time greed *is* at work on both sides (the old saying is, "You don't get hustled unless you're trying to hustle.") But ruining lives and pensions and families? Nah...just say no.
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: The thing I don’t understand especially coming from you Machiavelli is the idea that greed is good.
From what I have read from your statements over time does not make me think that you really feel it is a good thing. Especially coming from your roots.
I know your signature states "Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD." but there is a better word for what you are saying at least i think so.
After reading how you feel about different issues it does not seem your signature fits you.
There were issues like aid, US companies in foreign lands etc. Some of the economics of South America, Costa Rica, Mexico etc. You have talked about how the wealth is distributed within some of those countries and how unfair it can be.
To me it does not matter one way or the other but it does seem to me that you have more compassion for people than to think greed is really a good thing.
You see Greed in only way. Economics/Finance. Greed can be applied to any aspect of life and the human need for greed is what drives us forward and not backwards. I'll put it in finance in a different way then your own.
Charities are "Greedy". Yes they are but for a difference reason. They constantly need money to keep in operation so they will call and mail constantly to us all to get that extra buck without relenting. Are they profiting from all this money? no. But they need it constantly much like the classic greedy person needs money but both for different reasons. In one Greed is Good and the other Greed is not considered good but in both Greed drives both forward.
But anyways greed does not have to be monetary. As Gekko said it can be for love, money, life etc. Try to think about Greed in other ways then money.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...Your selfish attitude towards others, and views on greed and good, kinda go against the grain of most Democrats...dontcha think?
Although it does explain why you like Billary...
You are NOT consistent in your message from one post to the next...bipolar maybe?
Selfish? I contribute to Breast cancer (Komen.org) and Citymeals-on-Wheels (citymeals.org) on a regular basis because i care about others more then i do about myself. And that is just 2 that I'm currently contributing to. I'm still looking for others that peak my interest. So selfish? I suppose so. I'm selfish because I want and do try to help others and not only myself. I genuinely want to help the unfortunate and put my money where my mouth is. I am not rich but I try the best I can.
Who have you contributed to lately other then the NRA, Christian Coalition, Bush's upcoming Library, etc?
By the way I am self thinking person and do not let any political party, religion, Gov't etc. and much less you tell me what to think or believe in. Democrats ideals just happens to have more in common with me then the GOP and thats why I vote for them regardless of who the candidate is. Both parties have their good and bad but to me the Dems have more good then the GOP ever will.
My views on Greed again have to do more with other aspects other then money though money is one of them. I am greedy for money because I want to do good with it such as Breast Cancer for personal and SELFISH reasons such as my girlfriend died due to the disease back in October of 2006 you self righteous pr*ck.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
That is one of the biggest falsehoods ever put forth. It is the way the self centered excuse away their egotistical point of view. It's as illogical and emotionally immature as the claim that without religion (or some particular religion) to make one do so, there is no reason to be honorable or virtuous. Truly honorable virtuous people are so as a result of their basic character and may be found in all religious doctrines or without. [/QB]
Wouldn't you agree without some greed there would be no reason to trade in the financial markets? for life? for love? etc. It is a basic human need and/or drive.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
quote:Originally posted by T e x: "I am greedy for money because I want to do good with it . . . .
hedzup, bro...
you just made my point about balancing greed with altruism.
Balance, my bro... balance
I still don't agree with you on that but at least your always a gentleman about it and why your one of the few i like on this board.
I appreciate that... "gentleman" is not to be taken lightly.
Did you mayhaps skip this repsonse?
quote:The fifth? lol, that covers a l-o-t of ground...
I think we're playing semantics, here. To me, fighting for your life has nothing to do with greed, per se: although to write that someone in that situation suddenly "felt greedy for life" might be well received under the terms of artistic license...it's an equivocation in service to metaphor.
Girlfriends? The Code is, you never mess with somebody's wife, and you don't hit on your friends' girlfriends. Doing so doesn't qualify you as greedy nearly so much as needy...a needy prick who may be the subject of an imminent 911 call...or at least a bloody nose, lol...
No when I think of greed, I think Gecko from whence your siggy originates. In the sense that a touch of greed might inspire one to become a trader and take some risks...nothing wrong with that. But then we've all seen traders--perhaps including "us" in early days--who seem unable to take profit and walk away...and what happens to them? Blinded by greed, they get wiped out...
And Gecko, the character, showed how unmitigated greed leads to immoral, life-damaging crises. Imagine being so immoral as to take a viable company and instead of tuning it up and helping folks? the raider holds a fire sale and ruins people's lives simply to make more dough for him/her/self... Shameful. Bad, bad karma...
One of the travesties of the modern era to me is that Ken Lay's conviction got set aside because he died. Do I want his grandkids to suffer the shame he should have felt? No, I'm not greedy for vengeance. But his progeny should be taught Grandaddy did a bad, bad thing...Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be swindlers. Is one thing to hustle a lil pool, cuz 99.99% of the time greed *is* at work on both sides (the old saying is, "You don't get hustled unless you're trying to hustle.") But ruining lives and pensions and families? Nah...just say no.
Mach, we've done our share, here. I appreciate your input and love the fact that we can disagree...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Actually Machiavelli quite to the contrary I think greed comes in many forms. Since money was the base of what was being talked about at the time, I felt it was where I would stay. Seemed that the word greed had become confusing enough.
I think greed is “one” of the reasons our economy is going backwards at this point. (Corporate greed)
Just because a person gives to a charity or a business is a charitable organization does not mean they are or are not greedy people within.
I know people that are greedy that give to charities but they do not give because it comes from the heart. It comes because they are getting something more for what they give. It can be to get ahead more, it can be to try and get rid of some the guilt they feel for being jerks most or all their lives.
I'll bet you the guy Tex mentioned gave to charities (Ken Lay) would that mean that he was a good person and not greedy?
But bottom line is i don't care why someone gives to charities if it helps someone in need then so what.
Just because someone gives something to get ahead does not mean they are not greedy. We see it all the time in the corporate world. They need and “use” people to get ahead. If they didn’t need people to achieve what they wanted there would only be one person in some of the major corporations.
Over the years i have seen people who have gain major wealth and one of the obstacles there seems to be is how to first overcome the odds to become successful(money wise) and second how not to become greedy. I used money in this instance because success means different things to different people.
This discussion we have had has really nothing to do with where the greed might start with different people. It has to do with where it is now or in some of these cases where it ended and who suffered from it.( home owners,investors etc) You have tried to get away from the real point to try and justify that Greed is Good.
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quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Mach...Your selfish attitude towards others, and views on greed and good, kinda go against the grain of most Democrats...dontcha think?
Although it does explain why you like Billary...
You are NOT consistent in your message from one post to the next...bipolar maybe?
Selfish? I contribute to Breast cancer (Komen.org) and Citymeals-on-Wheels (citymeals.org) on a regular basis because i care about others more then i do about myself. And that is just 2 that I'm currently contributing to. I'm still looking for others that peak my interest. So selfish? I suppose so. I'm selfish because I want and do try to help others and not only myself. I genuinely want to help the unfortunate and put my money where my mouth is. I am not rich but I try the best I can.
Who have you contributed to lately other then the NRA, Christian Coalition, Bush's upcoming Library, etc?
By the way I am self thinking person and do not let any political party, religion, Gov't etc. and much less you tell me what to think or believe in. Democrats ideals just happens to have more in common with me then the GOP and thats why I vote for them regardless of who the candidate is. Both parties have their good and bad but to me the Dems have more good then the GOP ever will.
My views on Greed again have to do more with other aspects other then money though money is one of them. I am greedy for money because I want to do good with it such as Breast Cancer for personal and SELFISH reasons such as my girlfriend died due to the disease back in October of 2006 you self righteous pr*ck.
There you go flip-flopping again Mach...one minute you are stating that it's OK to woo one of your "friends" girlfriends...the next minute you state that you are contributing to breast cancer because of the loss of your girlfriend to the disease...
In the first scenario you portray yourself as a lowlife with no respect for others...the next a caring compassionate person.
After reading your posts...I don't know which one is the real you...get it?
Calling me a self righteous prick because I point out the attitude that you have portrayed here, is a bit over the line.
It also leads me to believe that the real you is more like the one in the first scenario...
posted
Who have you contributed to lately other then the NRA, Christian Coalition, Bush's upcoming Library, etc?
No...I am not an organizational kinda guy.
I don't belong to the NRA, but I do believe in the right to bear arms and, I do practice that right.
I don't believe in organized religion, but I do believe in God.
I don't believe in party politics and I am, and always have been, an independent.
I do donate my time and labor to Habitat for Humanity by rehabbing homes for the less fortunate and elderly, but I do not give my money to any charity that skims off the top...
That is one of the biggest falsehoods ever put forth. It is the way the self centered excuse away their egotistical point of view. It's as illogical and emotionally immature as the claim that without religion (or some particular religion) to make one do so, there is no reason to be honorable or virtuous. Truly honorable virtuous people are so as a result of their basic character and may be found in all religious doctrines or without.
Wouldn't you agree without some greed there would be no reason to trade in the financial markets? for life? for love? etc. It is a basic human need and/or drive. [/QB]
Are you really wanting me to claim to be so immature that I would refuse to conceive of life progressing other than for an ego driven competition to better some other person?. Have you never ever participated, with no vision of financial gain or power or revenge or anything similar, in some endeavor purely as an intellectual exercise and discovered the ecstasy of success that comes from simply having done so? There is no financial gain or position of power that so much as approximates the infinite joy of knowing you have prevailed via sheer self determination and diligence, just to see if you could (or maybe just because it happened without any design).
Can you even recall the thrill you knew as a child when, after wanting desperately to be able to learn to ride a bicycle and trying over and over, suddenly, all at once, you realized you were doing it?
Or maybe you remember that first glimmer of concept of what constituted a sentence and had grasp that fundamental tool of sophisticated communication and, along with it, the comfort of realizing you were going to grow up and be a regular human being too?
Such " is (the) basic human need and/or drive", not notches on the grip of some figurative western gunfighter's weapon and not zeros before the decimal point in your bank book.
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All this talk of "greed" is just silly. You could just as easily replace the word "greed" with motivation.
The wacko left hates corporations, even though most of them work at a job provided by a corporation. Is the purpose of a corporation to provide employment? NO! The purpose of a corporation is to make money for the owners (shareholders) - PERIOD! Making as much money as possible for their owners is not "greed", it's their duty.
Now, here's a BIG SECRET. Every American CAN BE THE OWNER! I hear constant whining from the wackos on the left about Exxon and other big companies making big profits, but everyone can share in that. If you think that Exxon will continue to make a huge, "obscene" profit - BUY IT! Buy some stock and see how much those billions of dollars of profits means to the owners. The truth is that Exxon is a big company, but their profit margins are lower than a lot of other businesses. Kill all the evil, mean, greedy corporations in America and where is the typical American going to work? RIDICULOUS!
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At best you are delusional. At worst, you are Propertymanager and imbued hate and far right-wing simple minded rhetoric that has been proved time and again to be hopelessly in violation of fact and reason.
The utopia you envision is as faulty and unattainable as the one described by Marx, who, at least, had the dignity and sense to state it was a dreamonly, a utopia, and recognized it was not practical or rational to advocate it as a reality).
You have absolutely no comprehension how people not similarly restricted in view think or operate and should learn enough respect for your fellow human beings rights and concerns to stop trying to characterize (always in devious and intentionally derogatory terms) things you cannot comprehend.
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Let's say the average Joe or retail trader can afford to tie up $500 in order to help Exxon steer tankers into continents but also profit from Exxon's good fortune. Invested at the low pps during 2005, around $50, the best price from '08 wouldn't even be a double--if you cashed out, you'd have less than you've spent on fuel increases...just commuting to work.
OK, yeah--but what about dividends?
Wheee! They pay 1.9% ...
wacko left, indeed
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Let's say the average Joe or retail trader can afford to tie up $500 in order to help Exxon steer tankers into continents but also profit from Exxon's good fortune. Invested at the low pps during 2005, around $50, the best price from '08 wouldn't even be a double--if you cashed out, you'd have less than you've spent on fuel increases...just commuting to work.
OK, yeah--but what about dividends?
Wheee! They pay 1.9% ...
Thanks Tex! That was my point exactly. They are NOT making obscene profits, in fact not even enough that you think it's worthwhile. So, why does the wacky left hate the oil companies?
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That they refuse to pay dividends commensurate with obscene profits dose not demonstrate that they are not making obscene profits.
However, that they keep reporting that they are making obscene profits does indicate that they are making obscene profits.
That they keep reporting obscene profits while failing to pass a reasonable portion of those obscene profits to share holders suggest that they are NOT willing to participate in the economy of the United States.
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C'mon, if you guys trade stocks, you know better than that. Dividends are only a small part of the compensation a person receives when they invest in a company that is making "obscene" profits. The growth of the stock value would normally be the big payoff.
Yes, the oil companies have profits that are a big number, but their profit margin is lower than a lot of other businesses. You guys know all that, you're just playing dumb.
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No, you better read it again. My point is that they are NOT making obscene profits. That's the reason you aren't buying it. Contrary to the wacko left, the oil company profit margins are not that good. It just sounds like a lot because the companies are so big!!! Do you get it now?
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Are you relly trying to sell your idea to us Propertymanager.
36 billion dollars a year profit? At one point during one of the price increases the Saudis were making 208 million dollars a day More.
Profit margins? That is funny. Are these profit margins figured after they have spent everything they possibly can on themselves and others and then write it off as a business expense?
Of course there is no monopoly or price fixing in this industry...it isn't legal.
But you did hit the subject of Greed pretty well. How much money can these indivuals really spend?
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: No, you better read it again. My point is that they are NOT making obscene profits. That's the reason you aren't buying it. Contrary to the wacko left, the oil company profit margins are not that good. It just sounds like a lot because the companies are so big!!! Do you get it now?
You know what I get? I get that it's a waste of time to attempt a dialogue with you. You can't hold a thought from one sentence to the next...
Lol, my Dad used to say about guys like you, "He's just like a goose--wakes up in a brand new world every day."
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Propguy does not wake up in a brand new world every day. He wakes up in the exact same world every day.
It is a world where the wealthy own everyone else and have the right to treat them like crap. It is a world of the 18th century and never changes. It isn't new, it is old. It does not exists, just like the absurd imaginary world he likes to claim citizenship in, where it is proper decorum to wander through insulting everyone that isn't rich,
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