quote:Originally posted by Persia: Yeep, the Kurd family, they were savages allright...
Native american killings, black slavery, hiroshima and nagasaki, vietnam, iraq, KKK, racist fundamentalist evangelists, daily shootings, daily rapes, daily gangrapes... Yeah, you Americans , you are all a bunch of holy saints, right?
1. Was in the past not present: Native american killings, black slavery, hiroshima/nagasaki
2. Was done to defend a country: South Vietnam from North Vietnam like the Korean war
3. Is in all countries: general crime (rapes,murders, robberies.), racism
4. Something we cannot stop because we have no control over politicians: Iraq
Point is things in the past we did & we learn from and realize they are wrong. We evolve and do not live in the past & try to repeat it. The Middle East never evolves and always lives in the past. We do not kill or have our relatives killed because they kissed their bf in public in the name of so called "honor". It's all about the male ego and the control of women in middle eastern society and to enforce such things they resort to murder and call it a matter of "honor"(apparently a male can't dishonor or shame the family for going out with a girl the family disapproves or for public things like kissing.You don't hear of males getting killed in the name of "honor" by their families).If we disapprove of a female relative with someone we do not like we disown them from the family or we accept it even if we disapprove because we love our relatives and value our family's human life. We do not live in 5th century Middle East. We are no saints but we are not savages with regards to our families that much I can say.
Good Post Mach
-------------------- Let's Go METS!!! Posts: 3317 | From: CT | Registered: Dec 2006
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We may have made mistakes in this country, but at least here in the US, our society/culture allows us to:
#1) Realize they were mistakes #2) Openly admit they were mistakes #3) Try to stop making those mistakes again #4) Speak freely about those mistakes in order to prevent others from having to learn on their own
How many of the above do you see in other cultures where "Honor" killings are common? What do you think would happen to someone who tried to stop an "honor" killing in those cultures? What do you think would happen to someone who spoke out against "honor" killings in those cultures?
IMO, this is what sets us apart and ABOVE others. Sure, to some, this makes us appear as "high and mighty" hypocrites, and unfortunately, those same people often use that as an excuse to ignore the heart of the message, which, regardless of the messenger, is inherently correct and truthful.
In all honesty, it is irrelevant what America has done in the past... The fact is HONOR KILLINGS ARE WRONG. Period.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
In all honesty, it is irrelevant what America has done in the past... The fact is HONOR KILLINGS ARE WRONG. Period.
it's not that far in the past tho...
when did US women get the vote? 87years ago this August...
there are still women alive that were born without the right to vote... countries that granted women voting right BEFORE US? Denmark, Australia, most of Canada, Germany, Austria, Finland,Russia,Netherlands,Belgium, Poland, Estonia, Iceland and Latvia....
1918: The United Kingdom gives a full vote to women of age 30 and older and men age 21 and older. 1929: Women found to be "persons" in Canada and therefore able to become members of the Senate.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agree Glass, we are not perfect, but we are are "evolving" away from being "savages".... Also, in some ways, we still are.
I wasn't trying to suggest that the good ole US is perfect. I was only saying that when it comes to human rights, most tend to "shoot the messenger" when the US speaks out simply because we are not, and have not been perfect, which really, when you think about it, is only an excuse for the side in the wrong to just keep doing the wrong thing that they are doing.
If I rob a bank and kill a man in the process, am I wrong when I tell you not to steal or murder when I see that you might be headed down the same path? Sure, to some that would make me a hypocrite... But I'm STILL RIGHT. Sure, me speaking out might not discourage you, and you may have to learn on your own by doing, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak out against something I know is wrong or try as hard as I can to keep you from making the same mistake.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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i agree that many cultures not our own have some "growing" to do...
head-hunting and cannibalism has just ended in the South Pacific this century too.
saying " They are savages.. plain and simple.. is easy...
demonising them is easy..
how did women get the vote? not with guns and bombs... South African apartheid was not ended by a civil war.... (at least not like, or as bad as the U. S. had)...
check out this article: Summary
The phenomenon of female infanticide is as old as many cultures, and has likely accounted for millions of gender-selective deaths throughout history. It remains a critical concern in a number of "Third World" countries today, notably the two most populous countries on earth, China and India. In all cases, specifically female infanticide reflects the low status accorded to women in most parts of the world; it is arguably the most brutal and destructive manifestation of the anti-female bias that pervades "patriarchal" societies. It is closely linked to the phenomena of sex-selective abortion, which targets female fetuses almost exclusively, and neglect of girl children.
by the standards set forth so far in this topic? the only non-savages are pretty much white and latino-hispanic cultures in Northern Europe and the Americas...
and i can assure you that our culture is similarly critisized as "savage" for different reasons by the ones we call "savage"
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: In all honesty, it is irrelevant what America has done in the past... The fact is HONOR KILLINGS ARE WRONG. Period.
it's not that far in the past tho...
when did US women get the vote? 87years ago this August...
there are still women alive that were born without the right to vote... countries that granted women voting right BEFORE US? Denmark, Australia, most of Canada, Germany, Austria, Finland,Russia,Netherlands,Belgium, Poland, Estonia, Iceland and Latvia....
1918: The United Kingdom gives a full vote to women of age 30 and older and men age 21 and older. 1929: Women found to be "persons" in Canada and therefore able to become members of the Senate.
with regards to human rights and in the example you give of women voting rights.. considering we have been a country more or less since 1776 (231 years old), I would say we progress and evolve alot faster then the countries you have mentioned who have been in existence a whole lot longer then us with regards to our past mistakes and such... so 87 years in a existence of 231 years so far is not that bad... compared to the Middle East of I would say 3,000 + years and no evolvement in human rights per say.... we may be arrogant but we are right when it comes to human rights and especially women's rights...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
i agree for the most part Mach, my caution is to be careful with that righteousness, To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence.Friedrich Nietzsche
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i agree for the most part Mach, my caution is to be careful with that righteousness, To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence.Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm not trying to predict their behavior I'm trying to change it for the better good of a human being called Woman. She is a living being and not something you can stomp out because she doesn't bow down to you. After 3000 or more years of existence in the Middle East i would say it's about time they evolve and treat all human life precious and not kill them because they are dating the wrong person or give a smooch in public... like i said.. if a woman dating a wrong person or smooch in public bothers you... Murder no matter how you try to justify it in the name of culture and religion is not right.. not right as human beings.. forget western, christian, or any other culture.. it's not a culture thing... it's a human thing... wars and such over borders and such which results in killings happens... we get on each others nerves and even though I don't advocate War... it happens and it is human nature.. it's a fact of life... but "honor" killing should not be a fact of life no matter how you try to justify it....
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: war is not a fact in my life..nor is it human in my nature..
Not a fact of life directly but indirectly it is... you easily could of had relatives or friends in the Twin Towers, the Pentagon or the airliner on 9/11 that went down in the field... you can right now have friends or relatives serving in Iraq and Afghanistan... and if this country was ever invaded by another country I would have no doubt your "human nature" would be warfare... I am not saying these things are everyday in our lives but they exist since the beginning of time and will exist till End of Days... Humans who have to have borders or disputes of some kind will always be at war at some point of time... Humans as a whole cannot live in total peace... whether you like to admit it or not and want to be in denial about it like you are in denial about "honor" killings... it's like you want to ignore these things exist and if you do then perhaps it will go away... well hate to burst your bubble but none of these things will go away until we humans address it and try to find solutions to it... but if you want to be in denial then so be it but someday War or a Honor Killing may affect you directly instead of indirectly....
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
The Myth that War is Intrinsic to Human Nature Discourages Action for Peace by Young People
These results support the need for a worldwide educational campaign to dispel the myth that war is instinctive, intrinsic to human nature, or unavoidable because of an alleged biological basis. As shown by the results obtained here, such a myth is widespread and constitutes an important obstacle that interferes with the development of activity for peace
The myth that war is intrinsic to human nature is apparently widespread and pervasive. This is indicated by not only our own results, but by the similarity of our results to those originally reported from students in Finland (Wahlstrom, 1985). Future research should be conducted to determine the causal factors that lead to the acceptance of this myth by young people. Such a myth is not supported by most qualified scholars and scientists, who instead agree that there is nothing in our understanding of biology that would support the idea of a "war instinct" or any "biological inevitability" of warfare.
Our data suggest that educational institutions may be partly responsible for the development of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature. This is suggested by the negative correlation obtained between school norms about peace activity and a student's beliefs about human nature. Apparent1y the students are receiving a contradictory message from the prestigious liberal arts colleges. On the one hand these colleges tend to support peace activity more than community colleges. On the other hand, the students in these colleges are more likely to believe in the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature than students in community colleges. This may reflect the fact that psychology courses and textbooks in the universities tend to emphasize biological factors in personality, intelligence, race and sex differences, and sociology and even history courses and textbooks give increasing attention in recent years to so-called psychobiological" explanations of human social phenomena.
Other possible contributions to the development of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature need to be examined: for example, the emphasis upon biological determinism in the mass media, and the emphasis upon funding for biological rather than social science research (Adams, 1981).
Our results suggest in not one, but several different ways, that a student's beliefs about human nature and war are significant determining factors in the complex set of causal relationships of activity for peace. 1) This is indicated by the significant correlation between belief and peace activity, whether measured in terms of past activity or future activity. 2) The correlation of belief and activity cannot be explained completely by other intervening variables, since it remains significant after being partialed by other factors such as the subject's attitudes about peace activity, level of anger, and the attitudes of family, friends and school. 3) There is the direct testimony of those who are active, 29% of whom indicate that before they engaged in activity, they had been discouraged by a "pessimistic belief that humans are intrinsically violent and therefore wars are inevitable." As indicated in the results section, the validity of this testimony is supported by internal correlations with other data.
4) In addition to the direct relation of belief to activity. there is an indirect relation through the chain of correlations from belief to attitude to future activity. As suggested earlier, this may reflect a causal chain such that the belief that wars are not caused by intrinsic biological instincts allows for the development of an attitude that something can be done to prevent wars, which, in turn, facilitates the decision to take part in activity for peace. 5) The data obtained in the present study are consistent with similar results obtained in Finland and in a pilot study conducted a year previously in the United States. In all three studies, it was found that a student is more likely to believe that he or she can do something about nuclear war if he or she believes that war is not intrinsic to human nature.
The importance of anger in the motivation of peace activism, as shown in the results of this study, should also be emphasized in a peace education campaign. These findings contradict yet another aspect of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature, in which it is said that individual human aggressiveness is the biological factor responsible for war. As has been pointed out elsewhere, there is no evidence that such individual aggression is necessary to the motivation of a warrior {Adams, 1983 and 1984; Lagerspetz, 1985). Now, we may say to the contrary, that individual aggression, in the form of anger against those responsible for war, is a positive motivational force in the world struggle to abolish war.
posted
eeeeek i hate when people only quote others fully in a post... just speak your mind dude... are humans peaceful? no... humans are violent by nature throughout history as a whole... especially when ideals and borders are involved... see i didn't quote anyone and spoke my mind...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
meh, heres my opinion. if you believe in evolution then it seems reasonable to believe that humans are the current result of years and years of alpha survivalists, the winners, the cream of the crop, the fittest, etc. its no wonder that we have battle instincts, you dont get to the top of the food chain being a pu*sy. we might have become a little more civil living in societies and such but its engrained in the DNA. Just like those "tame" white tigers that tore off Siegfried's buddy Roy's face.
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930 Posts: 678 | From: currently in hiding due to investigation | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: The Myth that War is Intrinsic to Human Nature Discourages Action for Peace by Young People
These results support the need for a worldwide educational campaign to dispel the myth that war is instinctive, intrinsic to human nature, or unavoidable because of an alleged biological basis. As shown by the results obtained here, such a myth is widespread and constitutes an important obstacle that interferes with the development of activity for peace
The myth that war is intrinsic to human nature is apparently widespread and pervasive. This is indicated by not only our own results, but by the similarity of our results to those originally reported from students in Finland (Wahlstrom, 1985). Future research should be conducted to determine the causal factors that lead to the acceptance of this myth by young people. Such a myth is not supported by most qualified scholars and scientists, who instead agree that there is nothing in our understanding of biology that would support the idea of a "war instinct" or any "biological inevitability" of warfare.
Our data suggest that educational institutions may be partly responsible for the development of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature. This is suggested by the negative correlation obtained between school norms about peace activity and a student's beliefs about human nature. Apparent1y the students are receiving a contradictory message from the prestigious liberal arts colleges. On the one hand these colleges tend to support peace activity more than community colleges. On the other hand, the students in these colleges are more likely to believe in the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature than students in community colleges. This may reflect the fact that psychology courses and textbooks in the universities tend to emphasize biological factors in personality, intelligence, race and sex differences, and sociology and even history courses and textbooks give increasing attention in recent years to so-called psychobiological" explanations of human social phenomena.
Other possible contributions to the development of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature need to be examined: for example, the emphasis upon biological determinism in the mass media, and the emphasis upon funding for biological rather than social science research (Adams, 1981).
Our results suggest in not one, but several different ways, that a student's beliefs about human nature and war are significant determining factors in the complex set of causal relationships of activity for peace. 1) This is indicated by the significant correlation between belief and peace activity, whether measured in terms of past activity or future activity. 2) The correlation of belief and activity cannot be explained completely by other intervening variables, since it remains significant after being partialed by other factors such as the subject's attitudes about peace activity, level of anger, and the attitudes of family, friends and school. 3) There is the direct testimony of those who are active, 29% of whom indicate that before they engaged in activity, they had been discouraged by a "pessimistic belief that humans are intrinsically violent and therefore wars are inevitable." As indicated in the results section, the validity of this testimony is supported by internal correlations with other data.
4) In addition to the direct relation of belief to activity. there is an indirect relation through the chain of correlations from belief to attitude to future activity. As suggested earlier, this may reflect a causal chain such that the belief that wars are not caused by intrinsic biological instincts allows for the development of an attitude that something can be done to prevent wars, which, in turn, facilitates the decision to take part in activity for peace. 5) The data obtained in the present study are consistent with similar results obtained in Finland and in a pilot study conducted a year previously in the United States. In all three studies, it was found that a student is more likely to believe that he or she can do something about nuclear war if he or she believes that war is not intrinsic to human nature.
The importance of anger in the motivation of peace activism, as shown in the results of this study, should also be emphasized in a peace education campaign. These findings contradict yet another aspect of the myth that war is intrinsic to human nature, in which it is said that individual human aggressiveness is the biological factor responsible for war. As has been pointed out elsewhere, there is no evidence that such individual aggression is necessary to the motivation of a warrior {Adams, 1983 and 1984; Lagerspetz, 1985). Now, we may say to the contrary, that individual aggression, in the form of anger against those responsible for war, is a positive motivational force in the world struggle to abolish war.
posted
Most all of what you folks have listed as terrible crimes against humanity are true.
But let us not put the horse before the cart.
IMHO these things were done in the quest for profit and things like racism were devolped as a by product of justifacation for the crime of exploitation.
Such as to justify slavery you have to demonize the victims of that interprise and inhuman system
Not letting women vote you have to justify it by saying half of humanity is not smart enough to vote for genetic reasons.
Just a few examples of my reasoning and we all have to live today with the aftermath of that wich is turned into false truth's to justify evil methods of profit centers that at one time or another were main sectores of our economy.
When you think of it I would say that most humans are not as violent as we get credit for ,or else why would we need a draft. We are an ends justifies the means bunch.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
all i'm saying is...I'd rather play golf,,,,or music...or fish...or love my boy....or smoke a ceegar..or read..or work on my house..or play in my garden..or just kick back and soak up the sun...or entertain..or bbq..so I guess that is what I'll do...I'll leave the violent war talk to the rest of you...
I've gotta take my coffee and pain pills now..
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
"Not letting women vote you have to justify it by saying half of humanity is not smart enough to vote for genetic reasons."
Let me think, now; we've got women voting and 18 year olds and no convicts and there is no pole tax and you not only can vote if you don't speak English, you can vote if you don't speak at all and we get the ultimate in arrogant elitist fascist "The Decider" dubya, that turns the whole world against us, while allowing the cadre of huge corporations to filter the nation's wealth to offshore non-taxible depositories and investments.
Sure looks like we have the wrong folks voting.
There may, indeed, be good reason to exclude 1/2 the population, but just exactly how to determine who does and who does not get put into that category is a hard thing to realize.
Whatever, we sure ain't solved that equation yet.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"There may, indeed, be good reason to exclude 1/2 the population, but just exactly how to determine who does and who does not get put into that category is a hard thing to realize.
Whatever, we sure ain't solved that equation yet."
For someone who so often waxes patriotic and continually defends the constitution...the above quoted statement has got to be the most assinine and idiotic statement I have seen you utter thus far. JIMO of course.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pagan: "There may, indeed, be good reason to exclude 1/2 the population, but just exactly how to determine who does and who does not get put into that category is a hard thing to realize.
Whatever, we sure ain't solved that equation yet."
For someone who so often waxes patriotic and continually defends the constitution...the above quoted statement has got to be the most assinine and idiotic statement I have seen you utter thus far. JIMO of course.
Oh, sorry, pagan, didn't mean to talk over your head. Didn't know you were around. Good to see ya.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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