posted
Has anyone here had any expeience with mixtures of hydrocarbons used to replace R12 and R143a as a refrigerant, particularly a mixture of n-butane and propane?
I have plenty of data and reportss of various mixtures of isobutane and propane as a replacement for R12 or R143a,
However, though I can find reports of studies of n-butane with propane used for a replacement for R12 and R134a (particularly in Cuba) I can't actually locate reports of any of those studies or experiments.
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There are many false reports of that nature oiut there Tex.
Actually, if you read the regulation, it says it isn't legal to "charge money" to charge (different usage) a mobile refrigeraation system for another person with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, provided that system was a working system running on R12 or R22.
It is legal to "charge money" for first converting that system to use R134a then converting that to hydrocarbon, if it isn't mobile.
Over the rest of the world, over half of the now existing refrigerating systemsm mobile and non-mobile, are working with hydrocarbon refrigerants. Indeed, in almost the whole world, absent the U.S., it is now illegal to use either R12, R22, or R134a as a refrigerant. In most countries, hydrocarbon refrigerants, which have zero effect on the ozone layer and not much more effect on global warming, are required by law.
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Howsomeever, if the equations are correct, since mixtures of either of the butanes and propane would have less than half the mass of R12, while having the same number of molicules in the system, and much lower pressures than with R12, not only should it be possible, by varying the ratio of the two gases, to achieve colder evaporator temperatures, it should increase the efficiency and get similar or lower temperatures at much less cost for the energy input (reports of 10% to 30% in the literature).
posted
Well, nothing "pops" out at the RMI site, except I saw mention of a consumer-oriented brochure...
but ya, he's a great guy... shot nine-ball with him once, while his wife watched some ball game...they're both fine people...
Anyway, feel sure that if you were to contact them directly, with a lil personal background (ie, you're not exactly a "hobbyist"), you'd get some real good leads from their library/files...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Hell, he must be a mental genious, he has addopted my "sermoning" of eliminating the use of fossil fuels for energy production and developing hydrogen in it's place, particularly fuel cells, for energy production.
Reading that stuff for a change is like stroking my own ego.
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For anyone interested, according to the literaature, a mixture of isobutaane and propane, with the percentage of isobutane anywhere from 50% to 29% will provide a substitute for R12 in an R12 designed system with a singel evaporaator.
Also, though it isn't legal to do so, according to various sources in the literaature, the ideal ratio of isobutane to propane in a automobile system, designed originally to use either R12 or R134a, is 21.8% isobutane and 78.2% propane.
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Another good place to get information on many of these questions and more, is at a good trade tech that teaches all the requirements for a federal license. I would guess there is one in most big cities, although i could be wrong. There use to be a very good one in Kirkland, Wash. Most instructors are happy to answer any questions and are very well versed in most aspects of refrigerants, laws and fine tuning most units. Have fun and watch out for those high pressure sides.
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If I wanted to be indoctrinated with the laws (some correctly reported, some not) and the propagaqnda of Dupont, I have access to all that and more already without subjecting myself to a class devoted to what is "approved" and accepted. (I may have more background in the subject than those instructures. I am interested in the "data" and results from experimentation that they don't know or use, not the how to of brazing and vacume pumps and refrigerant injection and retrieval and so on.)
The standard answer to my questions in that setting is a misreading of the law instead of any information on the results of the studies.
posted
First place bdgee, that information is not just for you, even though you think this board is all about you. No one else has any knowledge about refrigeration but you. People useing refrigerants should get a good idea about the laws and about using refrigerants and the possible hazards in playing with these units. Even though you are an expert and would not be interested in what other instructors have to say, that's up to you, that's your personnal problem. Some of those Trade Techs are very good and have instructors with bundles of knowledge in their particular fields, far beyond what you think you know.. The cost to indivuals misusing these refrigerants use to run up as high as about$10,000. (if i remember correctly) If you know everything about machinery and refrigeration then don't bother to respond, because what i said is not directed at you. I have found over the years of playing with these units and dealing with many types of machinery, i can always learn more from all kinds of people, especially those that specialize in the field.(most not all) Like i said, other people read these boards, not just you.
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I do so very very much beg your pardon for posting in a thread I started.
Moreover I specified in the first post of the thread, that I was searching for some specific information. That information is not within the routine airconditioning knowledge base. I understood that fact to begin with and pointed it out above.
I am looking for a source for some specific information about the data and results from studies mentioned in the literature (without details of the results or the data) of using a n-butane/propane refrigerant mixture. I believe I made it clear that I was not looking for standard refrigeration dogma, which, in this country, does not include information about hydrocarbon refrigerants.
I have pointed out that there are quite restrictive laws about the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in this country (you have mistated them above), so your attempts to "correct" my failure is a more than a bit superfluous and unnecessary.
You have made it quite clear that you do not have any experience or information concerning the data or results of studies in which a mixture of n-butane and propane were used as a refrigerant in a system initially designed for R12 or R134a.
Note that the first post in this thread states, "Has anyone here had any expeience with mixtures of hydrocarbons used to replace R12 and R143a as a refrigerant?". (I should have had the words "or expermental data" right after the word "experience", but it served the purpose to notify that I am looking for quite specific information.)
(There are those among us that actually do research studies and learn of and about things that are not standard.)
I don't think I own this place or think that I have the right to control what is posted any any of the threads, but you sure do assume you have that ownership and that right.
posted
My advice is to get away from R-134A completely. It is a very inefficient refrigerant, and is difficult to work with in cold ambient temps. Try R-404 or one of it's variants (AZ-50, R-507). The reason no-one has any info on the n-butane/propane refrigerant is that it is extremely explosive. The typical supermarket has several thousand pounds of refrigerants, and having a flammable mixture that is heavier than air does not really interest them. Other than that, it is a pretty good coolant.
If you need to pursue the issue, try ASHRAE...
-------------------- drysider
My advice is worth exactly what you paid me for it....
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So if you start a post its never suppose to drift from your exact topic. It appears it drifted some. Of course YOU never drift from anyone else's THREAD THEY STARTED? Again i suggested that the information your seeking might be obtained at a good Trade Tech that specializes in refrigeration classes. They usually prepare students for their federal license and much much more. (9 month course, all about refrigerents, units, schmatic reading, laws, etc.). Again i did not say to take their class, i said to contact an instuctor, and most will be happy to talk to you, I think. If they do not have the answer they hopefully will send you or anyone else in the right direction. Again here is what i stated. _________________________________________________
"Another good place to get information on many of these questions and more, is at a good trade tech that teaches all the requirements for a federal license. I would guess there is one in most big cities, although i could be wrong. There use to be a very good one in Kirkland, Wash. Most instructors are happy to answer any questions and are very well versed in most aspects of refrigerants, laws and fine tuning most units. Have fun and watch out for those high pressure sides".
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In test run for the British and German governments, where they forced rupture of refrigeration systems, the chance of explosion from hydrocarbon refrigerants is less than being struck by lightening. There are similar results in the literature from studies over and over. (In those test, the worst "explosions" resulted from ruptured systems using R22 or R12 when the lubricating oils flared off.)
To date, there has never been any record of a fire or explosion from hydrocarbon refrigeration units anywhere in the world, which, outside the U.S. account for over half the refrigeration systems now (through mosst of Europe, South America, Asia, Australia, and Africa, hydrocarbons are now required for new systems and to recharge rebuilt systems).
Actually, the amounts of hydrocarbons that would be in a grocery store's various refrigeration systems is way less than thousands of pounds (maybe less than a hundred) and much less than those in displays of aerosols of floor wax and cleaning fluids and paint and such (most of those use propane) that modern supermarkets have on sale every day in less than paper thin aluminimum cans.
Your home refrigerator might need a charge of less than a pound of a hydrocarbon and the unit that cools your house might need a couple or three pounds. It weighs way way less than R12 or R134a.
Even so, whatever you think or believe or know (those three things are not equivalent), do you know of a source of data for refrigerant mixtures of n-butane and propane?
I am coming to believe that, since most of the studies I find referenceing n-butane as a refrigerant are from Cuba and other sub-tropical and tropical places that the boiling point of n-butane may make it not suitable here, while it would be fine there. (Isobutane certainly would be suitable here or there.)
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: So if you start a post its never suppose to drift from your exact topic. It appears it drifted some. Of course YOU never drift from anyone else's THREAD THEY STARTED? They usually prepare students for their federal license and much much more. (9 month course, all about refrigerents, units, schmatic reading, laws, etc.). Again i did not say to take their class, i said to contact an instuctor, and most will be happy to talk to you, I think. If they do not have the answer they hopefully will send you or anyone else in the right direction. Again here is what i stated. _________________________________________________
"Another good place to get information on many of these questions and more, is at a good trade tech that teaches all the requirements for a federal license. I would guess there is one in most big cities, although i could be wrong. There use to be a very good one in Kirkland, Wash. Most instructors are happy to answer any questions and are very well versed in most aspects of refrigerants, laws and fine tuning most units. Have fun and watch out for those high pressure sides".
You may drift as you please.
But attacking me for posting in a thread I started for a specific reason (hope?) for pursuing that reason and at the same time attempting to chastize me, for what you didn't bother to read in my post, and accused me of failing to point out, is silly. I ask why you do it?
"Again i suggested that the information your seeking might be obtained at a good Trade Tech that specializes in refrigeration classes."
I say again, the information I seek is not available from "" or any number of them. That is something I exausted as a possibility before ever posting here.
"Most instructors are happy to answer any questions and are very well versed in most aspects of refrigerants, laws and fine tuning most units."
So long as said units they are absolutely standard systems and only use standard refrigerants.
(For an example that really isn't actually for a non-standard system, have you asked any refrigeration techs or refrigeration instructors to explain how that old gas refrigerator your uncle zeek had out on the deer lease works, without any form of electricity. Try it and find out they don't know. Did you know that the cooling system on a Boing 707 used air as its refrigerant?)
The questions I asked are not withing "a good Trade Tech that specializes in refrigeration classes". (That is often the case not just with respect to refrigeration, I have this bad habit of asking questions that stretch "outside the box", so to speak, because I find much of interest "outside the box").
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You think that all these instructors only think in the box? All instructors do this? You have exhausted all the Trade Techs and instuctors? Many of these instuctors i had heard of 10 years back, had work in the field for 20-30 years, not just instructors out of the book and knew a lot more than your standard book work stuff. No bdgee i do not go around asking the trade tech instuctors about all your questions, i can figure out a few on my own, if need be, as well the instructors could, if need be. As far as the refrigerents and units, i have very little interest in them any more. I have designed and re-designed enough equiptment over the years as to not worry much about it. I have had my own companies where i built most of the equiptment used, and set up equiptment for such companies as Starbucks etc. I still like to play from time to time, but not alot of interest in it any more. Again, i made a suggestion of trade techs and you seemed to not like it, oh well, i really did not think it was that big of deal. At this point in my life if i have a problem with a heating or air conditioning unit, i usually call someone to take care of it, but thats just me.
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And you seem to think I am a virgin in the field.....wrong again.
Just about anyone with just a tiny bit of education and the right tools can handle most standard refrigeration equipment. Moreover, design and redesign with standardized systems almost is nothing but cranking a few equations.
Trade techs DO NOT have the information I seek. I exausted that route long ago.
Again, I am not looking for any standard or routinely available information.
I posted here because we have some genuinely capable and inventive individuals that might know of a source I have not tried.
What I don't like is you preaching protocall, that doesn't exists, to me when you were about 179 degrees out of line of the facts.
You are still doing it.
I do not "have a problem with a heating or air conditioning unit". (Well, not involving my interest in the refrigeraatnt properties of n-butane. There is one of the refrigerators here tha needs it's evaporator fan cleaned and the pilot light on the furnace needs to get its annual cleaning.)
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Quote Bdgee: Just about anyone with just a tiny bit of education and the right tools can handle most standard refrigeration equipment. Moreover, design and redesign with standardized systems almost is nothing but cranking a few equations. _________________________________________________
I have seen your type many times before, as we use to clean up your messses all the time.
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I have to disagree with you on the amount of gas a supermarket uses. They usually have at least two parallel systems, each with 1000 lbs. or so. The conventional stores will have up to 40 individual units, each with 100 lbs. or thereabouts.
The danger with butane-propane is that refrigerant leaks are fairly common, and nobody wants 200 lbs. of propane gas lying in the grocery aisle.
I am not trying to get into the middle of the discussion, but I have been involved in the industry for awhile. As far as I know, the flammable issues are real, but I have no direct experience with the gases. I really think that ASHRAE will have all that you are looking for.
-------------------- drysider
My advice is worth exactly what you paid me for it....
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We use to have Dyers come in to the carpet industry from time to time, much like you. They were put them on night shift. There are Dyers and there are people that know how to dye carpet, big differance. Some of these dyers would have a carpet that was off color maybe 15%, so they would add what they thought the necessary amount of dye to bring the color to match, then would check for color match half and hour later. Again it was off so they add again and again not changing color much. Usually at the end of night they would decide to check PH of water(since dyes are ph sensitive) and then make proper adjustment of chemical. Some of these dyers had chemical degrees and supposedly knowing a lot about dyeing carpet. The next morning we would have a note saying please check carpet, of course we knew something was wrong if the carpet was not out of the dyebeck. Big surprise, we had 1000 yards of black carpet, instead of beige, they were dyers to. Of course we would have to go back and strip the carpet and fix the color. These things would happen all the time. You make mechanics sound the same way, just turn a wrench and you are a real mechanic, you apparently have never worked on much of anything by your statement. Just read a lot and scan the internet. Try big central air conditioning units and production machinery etc.
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Sorry, but my information, which comes from a whole lot of study, but could still be wrong, is that they do not have thousands of pounds of refrigerant in grocery stores. Skyscrapers in Houston or Mexico City might, though.
As I stated about the combustability if hydrocarbon refrigerants, there are numerous studies proving the line of thouigh that they are too "burnable" to be safe is false. A stationary refrigeration unit, such as those in supermarkets), even with almost no maintainance ever, almost certainly will never leak any refrigerant, combustable refrigerant or non-combuttable refrigerant, at all, over its entire lifetime and beyond, no matter what is used for its refrigerant, even in the event of a direct hit by a hurricane or tornado ....indeed, that is the normal experience.
Mobil system are subject to much more vibration and shock and, as such, are "thought" to be much more likely to leak (in fact a degree of leakage is designed into the systems.....particularly bad for the ozone layer with R12, R22, and R134a) , but in the studies, it is extremely rare to have a leak that can produce even a minimally combustable concentration of n-butane, isobutane, or propane from a standard auto ariconditioner. (contrary to popular belief, there are quite sever limits, both from below and from above, as to what concentration of a normally combustable gas will burn.)
In experiments, intentional catastrophic ruptures of the system, both mobile and non-mobile, did not produce explosions (or in most cases, even concentrations capable of burning). Even when the concentration is within the limits for combustibility, it still won't burn without an ignition source. Outside the passenger compartment of a car, it is essentually impossible to have a concentration that will burn. (Try opening the valve completely on a standard propane torch in the middle of your back yard and trying to light it from a foot away.) It isn't easy to manage a combustable concentration from a leak of hydrocarbon refrigerant indside a closed passenger compartment of a car, but it is even more difficult to manage an ignition source (maybe a bic lighter, but that fails with a window open, which is almost guaranted for any wreck that managed to puncture the evaporator.) Switches in modern cars,(modern = less than 40 years old) are sparkless and in the experiments the cars glowing cigarette lighter wouldn't ignite a suitable mixture.
(In one experiment (Austrailian, I think) hydrocarbon refrigerant from the evaporator was intententionally released into a closed refrigerator to in such a nmanner as to assure a combustable mixture and an atificial igmition source was used. There was only one time a combustion resulted and that "explosion" did not even force the magnetic door to open.)
Gasoline, (which, even the smallest of cars can be carrying over 100 pounds) is several tens of magnitudes more explosive and combustable than propane or butane and it has combustion concentration limits much much wider. Why then do we not see and hear explosions with every car wreck and see the resulting burned hulks being transported to the junk yards?
The myth, in actuallity, is all the burning cars and explosions you see in movies and on TV. It takes an expert to make those explosions and kerep them burning and they can't manage them even though they use an initial charge of explosive attached to the side of the fuel tank to rip it open and provide an ignition source. (Indeed, it turned out that in the films made to use in the Federal Court case against General Mortors, where a staged wreck into the side of a chevorolet pickup seemed to cause an erruption of flame, that turned out to have been staged by the same Holiwood explosives experts that make those in the entertainment films, since, without a charge of explosive set off remotely, the ruptured tanks couldn't manage a combustable mixture of gasoline and air and didn't have an ignition source otherwise.)
There is absolutely NO RECORD, anywhere in the world, ever, of a fire from a refrigeration unit leaking hydrocarbon refrigerant. Outside the North America, in most of the world, hydrocarbon refrigerant is now the requirement and has been for years. There are millions of refrigeration unites world wide using hydrocarbon refrigerants, cooling supermarkets and cars and refrigerators and RR cars skyscrapers and free=zing meat and vegetables and making ice and so on and there have been NO FIRES AS A RESULT of it.
About 20 - 25 years ago, I had occasion to speak with a number of airconditioning technicians and ask of their knowledge of hydrocarbons as refrigerants. Uniformally, they insisted it was impossible, even showing me the books from their classes where they learned their skill, that said so. Those booke now have been altered to make rediculous claims about flamability and to include sections on retrieval of the standard refrigerants, in orfder to start trying to stop the depleation of the ozone layer, but the rest of the stuff remains the same. It is part of a disinformation campaign comming out of various federal and State sources that get lobbied heavilly by the chemical companies that make billions each year selling their manufactured refrigerants. (By the way, the argument that freon won't burn works equally well for methane or ethane, which also have no molecular sites uninhabited. Neither of the three will burn as is....each will burn after they are broken up...the combustion products of freon are deadly poisons.)
I am not interested in being reinformed of the regulations or subjected to any further indoctrination on the "dangers" of hydrocsrbon refrigerants. I have invested a good deal of time and effort in that and have more than a limited or minimal experience in working with actual heat pumps.
I only am looking for some data and results from studies I have found mentioned in the literature. If you have any idea where I might find it I will appreciate that information. If you don't, I appreciate that too. I am a big boy with many many miles of experience and schooling that really doesn't need to be protected. However, I do thank you for your thoughtfulness and concern anyway.
(I also have some serious thoughts of how to store energy from solar cells and wind generators that does not depend on any kind of electrical "battery"\, should any of you be interested in that sort of study.)
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: We use to have Dyers come in to the carpet industry from time to time, much like you. They were put them on night shift. There are Dyers and there are people that know how to dye carpet, big differance. Some of these dyers would have a carpet that was off color maybe 15%, so they would add what they thought the necessary amount of dye to bring the color to match, then would check for color match half and hour later. Again it was off so they add again and again not changing color much. Usually at the end of night they would decide to check PH of water(since dyes are ph sensitive) and then make proper adjustment of chemical. Some of these dyers had chemical degrees and supposedly knowing a lot about dyeing carpet. The next morning we would have a note saying please check carpet, of course we knew something was wrong if the carpet was not out of the dyebeck. Big surprise, we had 1000 yards of black carpet, instead of beige, they were dyers to. Of course we would have to go back and strip the carpet and fix the color. These things would happen all the time. You make mechanics sound the same way, just turn a wrench and you are a real mechanic, you apparently have never worked on much of anything by your statement. Just read a lot and scan the internet. Try big central air conditioning units and production machinery etc.
You make a habit of some childish and insulting assumptions. You have absolutely no idea what "ike you" might mean with respect to me, as you don't know anything about me.
Take for example yur statement, "you apparently have never worked on much of anything". Once again you blurt out intended insults without knowing. Indeed I have a great deal of experiance working on many things, mechanican and otherwise.
Among those were included "big central air conditioning units and production machinery" as well as NMR equipment and the design and operation of urban bus systems (including the repair shops and the airconditioning of the vehicles and the buildings) and just a few others.
I have not had any reason to delve into the dying of carpets, but I assue you, should that ever become a concern, I will research the field and learn it in depth beforehand so that I will be more than proficient when the actual need arrises, thank you.
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Sorry Drysider did not mean to cut you out, sorry you have to put up with this. _________________________________________________
Quote Iwish: "Most instructors are happy to answer any questions and are very well versed in most aspects of refrigerants, laws and fine tuning most units."
Quotes Bdgee: So long as said units they are absolutely standard systems and only use standard refrigerants.
There is absolutely NO RECORD, anywhere in the world, ever, of a fire from a refrigeration unit leaking hydrocarbon refrigerant. Outside the North America, in most of the world, hydrocarbon refrigerant is now the requirement and has been for years. There are millions of refrigeration unites world wide using hydrocarbon refrigerants, cooling supermarkets and cars and refrigerators and RR cars skyscrapers and free=zing meat and vegetables and making ice and so on and there have been NO FIRES AS A RESULT of it.
Just about anyone with just a tiny bit of education and the right tools can handle most standard refrigeration equipment. Moreover, design and redesign with standardized systems almost is nothing but cranking a few equations.
_________________________________________________
Quote Bdgee: "have not had any reason to delve into the dying of carpets, but I assue you, should that ever become a concern, I will research the field and learn it in depth beforehand so that I will be more than proficient when the actual need arrises, thank you".
Bdgee, I am sure you would read and become what YOU would think was proficient in carpet dyeing. You would fall into the category of what i mentioned above in the carpet dyeing example. To spell it out a little more clearly to you--reading about carpet dyeing and actually doing it are entirely different games.
I cannot even imagine people wanting to take a class from you. Any class you taught had to be required and there were no other classes in that subject available. Did you use all the great terms you use on this board in your classes? Were they all Bdgee Truths?
I should not have suggested you talk to a Trade Tech instructor. If you let me know who you contacted i will call and appoligize to them for suggesting such a thing. I can only imagine how your conversation with the instructor went. I am sure you told them everything you know, when asking the question... Poor Instructors.
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You have desrtroyed any hope of anyone learning anything in this thread.
You are real jerk of the last class. You jump into something with a load of insulting labeling and name calling, with nothing but BS where you don't know what you are talking about in order to cause trouble and then don't have the courtesy to admit you are a biased malcontent looking only to cause trouble and be a p--ck head.
I won't respond to your childish name calling and demeaning name calling and insults.
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