quote:Originally posted by Dustoff101: Anybody ever been to Utah?
Hmmmm, separation of Church and State?
yep, scary to go to sleep between towns all-laid-out-the-same-grid-hypnotic-square
You wake up? can't tell whether your driver has been circling around in the last town, or maybe you're in the next one...
Plus--Stepford Wives? o, my, gawd...
I remember the first Meskins I saw, about 5 one morning, getting coffee. Doing Burt Reynolds' Number 3 Cool Move, I sidled over and had a conversation in Spanish. Like pulling a splinter...such relief to speak with "real" people...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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The only problem I see is how to teach all religions at the same time. I know that most of this country is Christian, but if you want religion in schools then make sure to cover them all. Since our country stands for equal rights the schools that want to implement religion should put together a program that teaches every religion practiced in the USA.
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I'd like to propose that public schools don't teach religion at all, period. We already have religious institutions that are there to serve that purpose.
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"Since our country stands for equal rights the schools that want to implement religion should put together a program that teaches every religion practiced in the USA."
That's way cool...
I don't see how this be done simutaneously, however: "The only problem I see is how to teach all religions at the same time. "
and of course, you've got folks that don't want kids being exposed to wiccan, pagan, Toltec, Bhuddist, etc, on and on...
But it makes sense to me to have a course: "Religions of the World"
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by LEO: I'd like to propose that public schools don't teach religion at all, period. We already have religious institutions that are there to serve that purpose.
well, hold on--the various inistitutions teach "their" religion...what's wrong with an overview course that includes, say, from Zoroastrism to Pentecostal, with a healthy dose of Jim-Jones Kool-Aid warning about cults?
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by BuyTex: and of course, you've got folks that don't want kids being exposed to wiccan, pagan, Toltec, Bhuddist, etc, on and on...
And don’t forget about Atheism; 3% of this country is Atheist and if you told someone that the only way their religion would be taught in the school district is if Atheism was being taught at the same time. That would freak out many of the holy rollers fighting this battle.
I went to public schools and within 2 miles of my High School there was a Catholic School and a Jewish School and the parents that wanted religion in school just sent there kids to those schools.
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ya, if I were SuperintendentCommandante of ALL SCHOOLS OF AMERICA?
a simple brochure, with a reading list...
Now, on to geometry...
lol--that's NOT true: If I were teaching literature, I would need the students to be familiar in at least a rudimentary way with the tenets of at least the major religions...
Otherwise? *I* would get in trouble, lol...
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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Freedom of religion allows you to practice any religion or lack of religion you choose. That is what the Constitution grants. Nowhere in this statement do I suggest "we have no freedom to abstain from religion". Nor have I ever suggested anything of that nature in the past. You only see what you want to see, not what is there, same as when you read the Constitution.
Aragorn243,
I am sorry, once again, to be compelled to point out, specifically, your willingness to stray from the truth. I do so only in order to save my name from your despicable attacks.
I present just one of about 7 or 8 or more times you made claims such as you say, above, that you never "suggested anything of that nature in the past". Your post of October 16, 2005 11:55 AM, in the thread, "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ" in Allstocks "Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk" states as follows (I have italicised your words and made bold the statement you claim to have never said):
"bdgee,
You have just shown you have a complete lack of understanding of the Constitution of the United States.
Bill of Rights Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
We have the freedom of religion in this country, not the freedom from religion."
I remind you that what I reproduce above was only one of several times you made that claim.
Your lack of honesty is appalling, however, it is far exceeded by your complete lack of ability at logic and the use of the English language. It is not me that fails at any hope of understanding the Constitution...it is you! It clearly isn't me that suffers from "only see(ing) what you want to see, not what is there".
Haven't you even noticed that you are at best in a tiny minority with the sort of abuse of logic you use in place of reason? Do you actually suppose all of these people telling you to learn the language and that it is you that fails to understand might be offering you good advice?
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I fully agree, you can't have a state religion. It is expressly forbidden in the Constitution of the United States. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------- Nashoba Holba Chepulechi Adventures in microcapitalism...
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quote:Originally posted by LEO: I'd like to propose that public schools don't teach religion at all, period. We already have religious institutions that are there to serve that purpose.
well, hold on--the various inistitutions teach "their" religion...what's wrong with an overview course that includes, say, from Zoroastrism to Pentecostal, with a healthy dose of Jim-Jones Kool-Aid warning about cults?
That's right, and a persons got a whole lifetime to go to all these various institutions and learn about each one from it's source if said person finds the subject to be so valuable. If you must have a course in public schools that covers all that, who is going to write the text, or for that matter, teach the subject without interjecting their own religious bias.
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lol, right, and then a professional teacher to present it. We are seeing professional teachers across the states trying to teach creationism as science. When the design by intelligence model finally gets shot down by the courts everywhere they will retool it under another name and resubmit it as science again. I'm just not sure that teachers will be able to resist interjecting their personal views while presenting ones contrary to their beliefs.
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Hold on now, Tex. You imply that such a course doesn't exists.
Where I went to school, they had a series of courses such as you describe. They were taught in the Anthropology Department under the heading of "Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion". Later, when I Lived in the far far frozen north in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, I had a friend who had taught those courses, then later, went on to a position at the University of Alabama, where he taught exactly the same materials in the Department of Religion.
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Schools should teach about religion. If they do not, no one will have any understanding of the various peoples of the world because religion is a major driving force in many if not most cultures. Some people have a strong desire to either hide or eliminate religion. That does not make it go away. It is still there and being ignorant about it solves nothing.
BuyTex,
I never disagreed with your statement. I've said that all along. It is right there in the Constitution. The government may pass no law establishing a religion.
A manger at the courthouse does not establish a state religion. It is the free expression of the people that put it up. Remember, they can stand on those steps and badmouth the President all they want, yet they cannot share their religion?
bdgee,
Not having freedom from religion does not mean you cannot live without religion. Sorry, you lose once again. I hope you do dig up every quote, not one of them says what you claim they do. They just show you have a total lack of comprehension of what I did say. But for your benefit, I'll explain it again.
The Constitution grants you freedom of religion. You may practice any religion you desire. If your religion is no religion at all, you may live your life in that manner. The Constitution does not give you freedom from religion, which you have claimed many times. Freedom from religion means you never have to be exposed to anothers religion or any religion at all and you have also expressed this desire on your part. You do not have that right. Just as you do not have the right to be insulted by someone elses political views. They have the right to express themselves, you have the right to tell them no and/or go away but you cannot tell them they have to go hide inside their church building where you don't have to see them.
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Aragorn, schools can teach kids about the peoples of our planet without having a religion class. Religion isn't hidden just because you don't teach it in school. And yes, maybe it would be nice if religion would go away, especially when it seems to be the people who share the same god (i.e. father Abraham) are the ones doing most of the killing of each other. But as long as people must have an explanation for that which is mysterious in order to feel validated we will be stuck with the bloodshed.
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I'm not suggesting a religion class. Religion needs to be taught in Social Studies as part of the investigation of the worlds peoples. Religion isn't going to go away, nice or not, so there is no point in ignoring it. As far as I know, they still do discuss the various religions in Social Studies. That is appropriate.
Saudi Arabia for instance is a country that cannot be discussed without Islam coming up immediately. Islam is so ingrained in Saudi culture that you cannot avoid it. A country such as Germany can probably be discussed with religion playing only a minor role but as the birthplace of the Protestant movement, that can't be ignored either. Israel was founded by Jews, a specific ethnic group with a specific religion. As for the entire conflict in the Middle East, it is almost all over religion.
Our future leaders are going to come from our school system. If they can't understand religion, they aren't going to accomplish anything in the real world where you cannot seperate religion from man.
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When our future leaders go to college the can take all the world religion courses they want. They'll probably get more out of them at that age anyway. I agree that we all need to understand other peoples religions as part of being understanding of human beings, I just don't want to see our public schools doing more than, as you suggested, touching on them in social studies. I worry about bad teachers who would teach religions in a flwaed way that would put their own religion in a more favorable light. For some reason people always seem to belive their religion is the only right one and the others are wierd. They are all wierd in some way or another.
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Leo good points, I see no solution for schools or teachers for this subject. You could briefly list all the religions of the world and state there one common element, there would always be questions by the kids and then some teachers we use this to preach their particular religion and on and on it goes.
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Many people, like some that post here, are incapable of divorcing their religion and their politics and, at the same time, incapable of understanding that they cannot. They simply are unable to concieving of anything thing being acceptable without it being based on their religion. Those same people tend to believe that anything that isn't strictly according to their religious beliefs is demonizing or comes from the Devil.
Perhaps with no intention or realization that they do so, they attack beliefs not their own and often cause harm to the emotiontional well being of others with their zeel. Whether intending to do harm or not, harm is done, even if they are incapable of seeing it.
I do not point out the lack of intention to harm in order to excuse doing harm. The surgeon that amputated the right leg when it was the left leg that was gangrenous is not innocent and the damage done in his innocent intent is absolute. His intent may have been innocent, but not his actions.
Teachers and members of school boards are, within that group of people, in about the same proportions as they are elsewhere. Like such people generally, they have no intent or thought of currupting or influencing the minds of children with what they believe. To them it isn't religious doctrin, just natural or the American way or what has always been done or the "right way" (and to them it is). It's still religious indoctrination and that is not right and, in Government sponcered places and things, it is illegal. I'm sorry if they don't want it ot be.
Failure to forcefully restrict the teaching of religion to children and depending on the good intention of teachers will not work, because people of that bent will, fully believing they are not, force their religious beliefs on the students. It must be a bluntly stated rule with serious punishment if ignored, whether intentionally ignored or not.
(A final note, I have evidence that college students, too, are not sufficiently mature to resist indoctrinations by professors.)
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The one thing with my kids when they were going to school is that we never worried about what they were being taught at school or what religion there friends were, even though some of there families were into heavy religion. We always spent a lot of time with them (sports, dancing etc.) and listenening to what they said to us and others. We always felt that we could advise them into the right decision, and correct any wrong doings at school if needed. I worry today that a lot of people don't have the time or don't want to spend the time doing this.
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