posted
Neither was very good. Both resulted in many many thousands of deaths and untold poverty. But if pressured to choose which was worst, I'd have to go with the war for Southern independence.
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Overall history of the US I agree with you both. History of the economy as mentioned above, I believe it was the market crash. The market crash caused business and banks to go into default.
The Civil War actually opened up more jobs than it took away, where the crash took away more jobs than created.
People starved, were murdered, and commited suicide as a result of both times in history.
[ October 30, 2005, 13:42: Message edited by: Peaser01 ]
posted
Put a question to my cub scout den the other night. What war did more American soliders die in. I had them listed out, but the numbers covered up.Out of 14, 4 got it right. Civil War, 850,000+. Don't have the numbers in front of me. One adult there, said the Spanish American War.(Dummy). Most of the kids said WWII or the American Revolution. One said Pearl Harbor.
This came about because questions they were asking with the news coverage of almost 2,000 dead in Iraq.
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4Art - 1999 dead when we went over it. Yes we did have a discussion on reasons. However, I did it to let them know the sacrifices our soldiers are paying for this country. My focus is/was our soldiers that have died in order for them to be able to sit and discuss these things openly....
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posted
No, I'm not kidding. At this point it does not matter. We are there, and can't leave yet. Cindy Shehan's son, and many other sons and daughters are dead. As horrible as it is, what's done is done. All the moaning, complaining, questioning, picketing, protesting is a waste of time. What end will it bring? My "guess" is none at all.
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everybody shutup and let the boss do whatever he wants, cuz he is doing it "for our own good" whether we like it or not? that's a loose quote, BUT i HAVE heard bush say exactly that...
that is not democratic or even republican, that is fascist
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal." -Benito Mussolini
"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality." -Wilhelm Reich
"The great masses of people. . .will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." -Adolph Hitler
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power" -Benito Mussolini
"This is a deeply uncanny and very troubling development, it exists, and it wants to take us back. It wants to take us, I mean, way back. I mean sure, they want to go back before the 70’s and the 60’s to the 50’s, no doubt about that. They also want to go back before the New Deal to the 20’s, well they also want to go back before the Progressive Era to the Gilded Age. Well, not quite, they also want to go back before the Emancipation Proclamation to the days of slavery, not even, what they want to do is take us back to a moment prior to the Enlightenment; they want to take us back to a moment when faith registered more than reason. They want to take us back to an imaginary age of absolute moral clarity, when good was good and evil was evil and everyone could see the difference. They want to take us back to an imaginary Manichean age when you’re either with us or against us, which means you either are us or we’ll exterminate you because we can only tolerate ourselves, we can only tolerate those who share our values. If this movement were to be given a name, I think it would most appropriate to call it Christo-Fascism, and if anyone objects to my using the word fascism, because it seems so redolent of the Axis powers, and after all we valiantly defeated fascism once, well understand this about fascism, when it arrives it never shows up in the discarded costume of some other country, and when fascism comes here, its not going to be wearing a toothbrush mustache with a luger in his belt and go goose-stepping around the mall, because that’s Germany. And its precisely characteristic of fascism, that it seems absolutely, totally expressive of the homeland, it seems completely familiar, it’s when 150% America puts a flag on it’s lapel and a cross around it’s neck and a real folksy way a talkin’, but just because it’s red, white and blue, doesn’t mean it’s American." -Mark Crispin Miller
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quote:Originally posted by 4Art: When can we leave, Ramius? How many more "kids other than yours" will have to die?
I don't know when we can leave, but it "seems" that if we just packed up and left today the resulting problems would be worse than we have now.
If my son had chosen to join the military and had died in Iraq I would accept the consequences of his decisions. I think the Cindy Shehans of the world have forgotten that when you join the military you don't get to choose how, when or where you will fight, and possibly die. It's not all about free tuition and learning a trade.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: waste of time?
everybody shutup and let the boss do whatever he wants, cuz he is doing it "for our own good" whether we like it or not? that's a loose quote, BUT i HAVE heard bush say exactly that...
that is not democratic or even republican, that is fascist
I already said it..."what end will it bring, my guess is none at all". It's not a matter of "letting" the boss do what he wants, it's the fact that all of this BS complaining, protesting, etc, will have ZERO affect on the direction of decisions. He/they are going to do whatever they want anyway. So...it's a waste of time. IMO Cindy Shehan would be better off mourning her loss and moving on with her life, because all of this she's doing now will probably make no difference at all.
We'll only have to deal with Bush and his people for a few more years. Then the next guy can do whatever they want for 4 years.
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posted
Do you really believe that Cindy Sheehan's son joined up believing the US was going to send him to fight in a trumped up war that was NOT in the best interest of the US.
That's ludicrous.
What's more, this constant claim that members of the military lost their Constitutional right to participate as citizens of the US is disgusting and absurd.
Bush is a President, not a ruler. As hard as he is trying to supplant the Constitution, much of it is still in effect.
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Do you really believe that Cindy Sheehan's son joined up believing the US was going to send him to fight in a trumped up war that was NOT in the best interest of the US.
That's ludicrous.
What's more, this constant claim that members of the military lost their Constitutional right to participate as citizens of the US is disgusting and absurd.
Bush is a President, not a ruler. As hard as he is trying to supplant the Constitution, much of it is still in effect.
I have no idea what he thought or how he felt. He joined the military. In joining the military he assumed the risk that he may die, and unfortunately was killed. His mother, who should be and has every right to be upset, is making a huge stink about the conflict that he was killed in. She has stated her opinion and her position and made her "point", which is fair. Now, can she, or all of the attention she is getting, possibly change anything that has happened, or anything that will happen? Will she affect U.S. policy or the present course of the war in Iraq in any way?
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posted
Looks like a good anology to me. It's right on target.
It is time the US accepted the lies that lead to it being in Iraq were lies and "pick (it)self up and move on", just like you say you would do. Accepting reality may be difficult, but it is necessary to "move on".
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Look guys, I get it, all of the arguements are logical and make perfect sense. This situation sucks, but...
"Now, can she, or all of the attention she is getting, possibly change anything that has happened, or anything that will happen? Will she affect U.S. policy or the present course of the war in Iraq in any way?"
posted
Need to change WHY IT HAPPENED in the first place or it will just continue to happen over and over.
The people can change policy by getting the jokers out of washington and out of congress.
also..
quote:That's not a comparable analogy...
My wife and kid did not knowingly sign up for a program that has a good chance of getting them raped/killed.
But, if they had been raped/killed I would surely mourn and be devastated. Then I would pick myself up and move on.
Why not?
You can say all you want that when these KIDS that get recruited out of their HIGH SCHOOL cafeteria sign a few papers and just gave up their life, no matter if they change their mind or not.
They may say they will DIE for their country but when it comes down to getting shot and and being there EVERYTHING changes.
They get the kids at the worst time (or best for recruiting) they are not sure of their future, most don't know what they are going to do, they are told they get a free education and I BET THEY TELL them they will probably never see combat.
Oh, did I mention these recruiters don't go to schools in Orange County or rich places. they go to schools and malls with kids that are middle class or less.
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posted
Yes, I honestly think she has already had an effect.
Declaring her and what she says does not matter is like telling someone not to vote, because their one little vote isn't big enough to matter.
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