posted
The US gave all poison gas to sadam, helped him deploy it, in Iran, Looked the other way when he gassed the kurds. The US blocked the UN when it tried to condemn the use of chemical weapons.
Posts: 348 | From: seattle | Registered: May 2005
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Did they destroy all or just some? Sounds like some to me. It is interesting that you at this point admit that Iraq had WMD's at the time of the attack. That Iraq was in the process of digging them up to show to the inspectors. Don't you even consider that these were probably stored in many different locations, not just the one that they were digging up? And why were they digging them up, they weren't even supposed to have them and had claimed they did not possess them.
I dont think they said they never possesed the weapons we knew they had them because we gave them to them in the 80's.
"In an October 1, 2002, article entitled “Iraq Got Germs for Weapons Program from U.S. in ’80s,” Associated Press writer Matt Kelly wrote,
[The] Iraqi bioweapons program that President Bush wants to eradicate got its start with help from Uncle Sam two decades ago, according to government records that are getting new scrutiny in light of the discussion of war against Iraq.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sent samples directly to several Iraqi sites that U.N. weapons inspectors determined were part of Saddam Hussein’s biological weapons program, CDC and congressional records from the early 1990s show. Iraq had ordered the samples, saying it needed them for legitimate medical research.
The CDC and a biological-sample company, the American Type Culture Collection, sent strains of all the germs Iraq used to make weapons, including anthrax, the bacteria that make botulinum toxin, and the germs that cause gas gangrene, the records show. Iraq also got samples of other deadly pathogens, including West Nile virus.
The transfers came in the 1980s, when the United States backed Iraq in its war against Iran."
"An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease-producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American-exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran"
so i reiterate, the weapons were were ordering iraq to destroy were weapons we supplied them with in the first place. we knew full well that they had those weapons. The question was, did they expand their research and development program to have the ability to deploy weapons on US cities or mid eastern allies, and according to all UN inspectors reports this answer was a definate NO.
source:http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930 Posts: 678 | From: currently in hiding due to investigation | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
In the drizzly late afternoon of April 16, the villagers had returned home from the fields and were preparing dinner when they heard the drone of aircraft approaching. Some stayed put in their houses; others made it as far as their air-raid shelters before the planes, a dozen of them, came in sight, wheeling low over the two villages to unload their bombs. There were a number of muffled explosions.
Until this moment no government had ever used chemical weapons against its own civilian population. But the plummeting enlistment rate among Iranian volunteers over the previous year, when poison gas was widely used on the battlefield, was vivid testimony to the Iraqi government of the power of this forbidden weapon to instil terror. More gruesome yet was the decision to record the event on videotape.
The Iraqi regime had long conducted its record-keeping in meticulous fashion. (Those in neighboring countries say, only half-jokingly, that the Iraqis are the "Prussians of the Middle East.")20 From the grandest decree to the most trivial matter, all the business of the security forces was recorded in letters and telegrams, dated, numbered and rubber-stamped on receipt. Even when an original command carried a high security classification, abundant numbers of handwritten or typed copies were later prepared, to be handed down the chain of command and filed, the writers apparently confident that prying eyes would never see these secrets. In the mid-1980s, the Iraqi security services developed a fascination for video technology as a valuable new form of record-keeping. The actions of the security forces were now to be routinely documented on tape: village clearances, executions of captured peshmerga, even chemical weapons attacks on civilians.
The official videotape of the Balisan Valley bombing, reportedly made by a member of the jahsh, shows towering columns and broad, drifting clouds of white, gray and pinkish smoke. A cool evening breeze was blowing off the mountains, and it brought strange smells--pleasant ones at first, suggestive of roses and flowers, or, to others, apples and garlic. Other witnesses still say there was the less attractive odor of insecticide. But then, said one elderly woman from Balisan, "It was all dark, covered with darkness, we could not see anything, and were not able to see each other. It was like fog. And then everyone became blind." Some vomited. Faces turned black; people experienced painful swellings under the arms, and women under their breasts. Later, a yellow watery discharge would ooze from the eyes and nose. Many of those who survived suffered severe vision disturbances, or total blindness, for up to a month. In Sheikh Wasan, survivors watched as a woman staggered around blindly, clutching her dead child, and not realizing it was dead. Some villagers ran into the mountains and died there. Others, who had been closer to the place of impact of the bombs, died where they stood.21 One witness, a peshmerga, told MiddleEast Watch that a second attack followed an hour later, this one conducted by a fleet of helicopters.22
The few fighters who had been at home when the raid occurred were taken by the PUK for treatment in Iran, fearing that they would not survive a visit to an Iraqi hospital. (The presence of peshmerga in the village is, one should add, quite irrelevant from a legal point of view. By their very nature, chemical weapons make no distinction between civilian and military targets, and their use is outlawed under any circumstances.)23
The following morning, ground troops and jahsh entered Balisan, looted the villagers' deserted homes and razed them to the ground. The same day, or perhaps a day later--having presumably left sufficient time for the gas to dissipate--army engineers dynamited and bulldozed Sheikh Wasan. But the surviving inhabitants had already fled during the night of the attack. Some made their way to the city of Suleimaniyeh, and a few to Shaqlawa. But most headed southeast, to the town of Raniya, where there was a hospital. They were helped on their way by people from neighboring villages, some of which--including Barukawa, Beiro, Kaniberd and Tutma--had also suffered from the effects of the windborne gas.
Posts: 348 | From: seattle | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Do you really expect people to believe that the United States provided Iraq with biological weapons, mustard gas, sarin and the means to deliver these agents?
CDC transfers probably did occur, for research purposes. I would be interested in the full details of this transfer if you have access to it.
As for the mustard gas, sarin and the means of delivery, you're fantasizing.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aragorn243: Do you really expect people to believe that the United States provided Iraq with biological weapons, mustard gas, sarin and the means to deliver these agents?
CDC transfers probably did occur, for research purposes. I would be interested in the full details of this transfer if you have access to it.
As for the mustard gas, sarin and the means of delivery, you're fantasizing.
strider? you are joking right?
January 28, 2003
Army gave chem-bio warfare training to Iraqis
By David Ruppe, Global Security Newswire
The U.S. Army trained 19 Iraqi military officers in the United States in offensive and defensive chemical, biological and radiological warfare from 1957 to 1967, according to an official Army letter published in the late 1960s.
--------------------------------------------------- Stockholm International Peace Research Institute
SIPRI FACT SHEET Chemical Weapons I May 1984 Authors: Julian Perry Robinson and Jozef Goldblat
NB: This material may be quoted freely, with attribution to SIPRI. CHEMICAL WARFARE IN THE IRAQ-IRAN WAR
ORIGIN OF THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS
The UN report provides only negative evidence of the origin of the mustard gas sample. The absence in the sample analysed in Sweden and Switzerland of polysulphides and of more than a trace of sulphur indicates that it is not of past US-government manufacture, for all US mustard was made by the Levinstein process from ethylene and mixed sulphur chlorides. That process is also said to have been the one used by the USSR. From similar reasoning, British-made mustard, too, can probably be ruled out, even though substantial stocks were once held at British depots in the Middle East. For more positive evidence other sources of information must be used.
----------------------------------------- Mark Phythian, in his book Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine" (Northeastern University Press, 1997) stated:
" the Secretaries of Commerce and State (George Baldridge and George Shultz) lobbied the NSC (National Security Council) advisor into agreeing to the sale to Iraq of 10 Bell helicopters, officially for crop spraying. It is believed that US-supplied choppers were used in the 1988 chemical attack on the Kurdish village Halabja, which killed 5000 people." -------------------------------------------------- It is public record that the U.S. not only armed Iraq from 1983 thru August 1, 1990, but that they also provided the money to Iraq to purchase the weapons via the Atlanta branch of the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL), George Bush, Sr., and the Export-Import Bank. Iraq received $5 Billion dollars funneled through the Commercial Credit Corporation ostensibly for food credits. It is also public information that at least $2 Billion dollars from the defaulted loan was repaid by the U.S. citizen taxpayers.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
i know this is a long report strider but if you still don't believe after you readit? you have a closed mind.... all of these agents were made available by our govt...
The Riegle Report
U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Gulf War A Report of Chairman Donald W. Riegle, Jr. and Ranking Member Alfonse M. D'Amato of the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs with Respect to Export Administration
United States Senate, 103d Congress, 2d Session May 25, 1994 Chapter 1, Part 2 Vesicants and Blood Agents Blister Agents Related Chemical Agent Information Biotoxins Biological Warfare Capability U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq UNSCOM Biological Warfare Inspections U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq
The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria... Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities in Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles."
Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:
Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Contress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program.
Anthrax is an often fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria.
Clostridium Botulinum: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.
Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superfically resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.
Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatique, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.
Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness.
In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.
The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of the government of Iraq pursuant to the issueance of an export licensed by the U.S. Commerce Department:
Date : February 8, 1985 Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Agency Materials Shipped:
Ustilago nuda (Jensen) Rostrup
Date : February 22, 1985 Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped:
Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen
Date : July 11, 1985 Sent To : Middle and Near East Regional A Material Shipped:
Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen
Date : May 2, 1986 Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped:
1. Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10) Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each) Class III pathogen
Date : January 17, 1989 Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped:
1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosomes(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57237) Phage vector; Suggested host: E. coli
2. Hulambda14, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57540), Cloned from human lymphoblast, Phase vector Suggested host: E. coli
3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57241) Phage vector; Suggested host: E. coli
Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control has compiled a listing of biological materials shipped to Iraq prior to the Gulf War. The listing covers the period from October 1, 1984 (when the CDC began keeping records) through October 13, 1993. The following materials with biological warfare significance were shipped to Iraq during this period.
Date : November 28, 1989 Sent To : University of Basrah, College of Science, Department of Biology Materials Shipped:
1. Enterococcus faecalis
2. Enterococcus faecium
3. Enterococcus avium
4. Enterococcus raffinosus
5. Enteroccus gallinarium
6. Enterococcus durans
7. Enteroccus hirae
8. Streptococcus bovis (etiologic)
Date : April 21, 1986 Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69, House 28/I, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid (non-infectious)
Date : March 10, 1986 Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 28/I, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid #A2 (non-infectious)
Date : June 25, 1985 Sent To : University of Baghdad, College of Medicine, Department of Microbiology Materials Shipped:
1. 3 years cultures (etiologic) Candida sp.
Date : May 21, 1985 Sent To : Basrah, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. Lyophilized arbovirus seed (etiologic)
2. West Nile Fever Virus
Date : April 26, 1985 Sent To : Minister of Health, Ministry of Health, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 8 vials antigen and antisera (r. rickettsii and r. typhi) to diagnose rickettsial infections (non-infectious)
posted
Date : May 21, 1985 Sent To : Basrah, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. Lyophilized arbovirus seed (etiologic) 2. West Nile Fever Virus
now that one really makes ya wonder huh?????
this book here? i don't recomend you read it if you suffer from RANT's (random automatic negative thoughts)
Biohazard: The Chilling True Story of the Largest Covert Biological Weapons Program in the World--Told from Inside by the Man Who Ran It (Paperback) by Ken Alibek, Stephen Handelman "Late in the winter of 1988, I was called to a meeting at Soviet army headquarters on Frunze Street in Moscow..." (more) SIPs: myelin toxin, anthrax production, smallpox weapon, plague weapon, biological warfare program (more)
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Do you even know what chemical weapons training is? I do. I was a nuclear, biological, chemical officer for two different army units for a period of 7 years. We continue to train foreign officers in this type of warfare because it is a fact of life that other nations have these capabilities and there must be defences against them. To create a defense, you must learn the possible deployment options.
Anything can be worded to sound ominous, the wording doesn't make it so.
The same with crop dusting helicopters. Iraq isn't allowed to have crop dusting helicopters? You make it sound like we purposely gave them helicopters for spraying troops when we actually gave them the helicopters for say........crop dusting?
The public record does show who armed Iraq and it wasn't the United States. The public record shows we provided Iraq with 5 airliners and a $400 million credit guarentee. Iraq obtained its weapons from France and the Soviet Union.
As for the chemicals and biological agents sent to Iraq. None of them are in substantial enough quantities to be "weapons". Thus we did not provide Iraq with WMD's as you claim. There is no sarin, there is no mustard gas. What I see when I read the list is nothing more than the same items passed from research facility to research facility, nation to nation all the time. Research must be done using these items to protect against them, most occur naturally in nature and this research is a standard preventative health measure.
I'm sure you are familier with the concept that as bacteria passes from one host to another and it is subjected to various "cures", some survive thus creating stronger strains. Constant research needs to be done to try to stay one step ahead of the next major outbreak of fatal illness.
We probably did send the precourser chemicals for sarin and mustard gas to Iraq. Chemicals are used for dozens of different applications in industry. Some have no substitutes. It's how they are combined that determine the results. If we send someone fertilizer because they say they have a farm and plan to grow crops and they create a bomb and blow up their neighbors house is it our fault? These chemicals have valid civilian uses and are not on prohibited shipping lists.
West nile virus doesn't make me wonder at all. We have cases of that right here where I live. It is transmitted by birds and is a potentially serious problem. So far we are averaging less than a dozen cases a year but there have been fatalities. As Iraq is much closer to the source than the United States, it only makes sense that they have the ability to do research on this virus to prevent outbreaks among their own people.
One thing you need to understand is that biological agents are not very effective in a desert environment. Chemical agents have limited effectiveness as well. The heat and the dryness act very quickly to neutralize the agents, one reason field tests have shown positive and lab tests have not. By the time they get to the lab, the agent as been neutralized. Biological agents to be effective need a vector. Vectors are very unpredictable. Vectors include birds, rats, fleas, mosquitoes, etc. Wind can be considered a vector for only a few biological agents, contact with air kills most of them. You can also contaminate the supply source such as a food stockpile or a well.
Chemical agents are most effective at night or early morning when the air is cooler and more damp. Helicopters do not make good dispersal agents as they provide obvious and early warning (you can see the spray), must fly very close to the ground and are very vulnerable to being shot down. Use against unarmed civilians would work, against armed troops would not.
So yes, we probably did send all those things to Iraq, just as we sent them to dozens of other nations, for the intent of research into civilian applications. One fault the United States has always had is we tend to be naive about what some people will do with what we provide them. Iraq may have used these to create thier WMD programs but that does not prove that is why we sent the items to them.
Posts: 559 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: i know this is a long report strider but if you still don't believe after you readit? you have a closed mind.... all of these agents were made available by our govt...
The Riegle Report
U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Gulf War A Report of Chairman Donald W. Riegle, Jr. and Ranking Member Alfonse M. D'Amato of the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs with Respect to Export Administration
United States Senate, 103d Congress, 2d Session May 25, 1994 Chapter 1, Part 2 Vesicants and Blood Agents Blister Agents Related Chemical Agent Information Biotoxins Biological Warfare Capability U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq UNSCOM Biological Warfare Inspections U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq
The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria... Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities in Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles."
Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:
Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Contress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program.
Anthrax is an often fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria.
Clostridium Botulinum: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.
Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superfically resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.
Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatique, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.
Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness.
In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.
The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of the government of Iraq pursuant to the issueance of an export licensed by the U.S. Commerce Department:
Date : February 8, 1985 Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Agency Materials Shipped:
Ustilago nuda (Jensen) Rostrup
Date : February 22, 1985 Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped:
Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen
Date : July 11, 1985 Sent To : Middle and Near East Regional A Material Shipped:
Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136) Class III pathogen
Date : May 2, 1986 Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education Materials Shipped:
1. Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10) Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each) Class III pathogen
Date : January 17, 1989 Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission Materials Shipped:
1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosomes(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57237) Phage vector; Suggested host: E. coli
2. Hulambda14, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57540), Cloned from human lymphoblast, Phase vector Suggested host: E. coli
3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57241) Phage vector; Suggested host: E. coli
Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control has compiled a listing of biological materials shipped to Iraq prior to the Gulf War. The listing covers the period from October 1, 1984 (when the CDC began keeping records) through October 13, 1993. The following materials with biological warfare significance were shipped to Iraq during this period.
Date : November 28, 1989 Sent To : University of Basrah, College of Science, Department of Biology Materials Shipped:
1. Enterococcus faecalis
2. Enterococcus faecium
3. Enterococcus avium
4. Enterococcus raffinosus
5. Enteroccus gallinarium
6. Enterococcus durans
7. Enteroccus hirae
8. Streptococcus bovis (etiologic)
Date : April 21, 1986 Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69, House 28/I, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid (non-infectious)
Date : March 10, 1986 Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna, Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 28/I, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid #A2 (non-infectious)
Date : June 25, 1985 Sent To : University of Baghdad, College of Medicine, Department of Microbiology Materials Shipped:
1. 3 years cultures (etiologic) Candida sp.
Date : May 21, 1985 Sent To : Basrah, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. Lyophilized arbovirus seed (etiologic)
2. West Nile Fever Virus
Date : April 26, 1985 Sent To : Minister of Health, Ministry of Health, Baghdad, Iraq Materials Shipped:
1. 8 vials antigen and antisera (r. rickettsii and r. typhi) to diagnose rickettsial infections (non-infectious)
posted
strider? i don't care if you do claim to be a . a nuclear, biological, chemical officer for two different army units for a period of 7 years
you have a closed mind...
if you really were what you are claiming then you'll know what i mean when i tell i was a "keyholder" and i am closely related to a vector biologist who is also an expert in molecular biology and i read Science on a regular basis...
so much for the pi$$ing contest.....
you couldn't possibly have been "in a key role" if you are saying we didn't supply, and encourage Iraq to develop and use the WMD..... we may not have shipped them the finished product? but we made sure they could do it... and? we made sure Pakistan could too..we friggin trained their scientists, and they are the ones that sold the crap to N Korea....
and i do know what the training i mentioned entails..all good training involves BOTH offensive and defensive measure so that you have a comprehensive understanding of how to wage war.... sheeshh that's just basic to miltraining...
i know a lot more about WNV than i want to, and a few other vector born diseases... i even know how the WNV got into the US (according to the "experts") it doesn't matter... we DID send the cultures to them and if you had been reading here for the last year? you would have seen that i agree with you about the uselessness of MOST of the supposed WMD agent, and that is my argument why the war was started using a pack of lies.....and i have been posting that position for over a year now...
if you really analysed what you read? you would have noted who the delivery of the Anthrax was too, but i think you just gloss over what you don't want to see.....
weaponised anthrax is only useful in a powder form so difficult to produce that nobody can "cook it in their kitchen" without killing themselves anyway....
Iraq was already lame and under control, now we have a problem.... a real expensive problem, what a waste...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Aragorn243: [QB] Glassman,
How long do you think diplomacy should go on?
Diplomacy goes on FOREVER as long as there is no imminent threat of attack...guess what? the PROOF is IN: there was no imminent threat of attack, and there is NOW plenty of public evidence that this was KNOWN at the highest levels...all you have to do is look for it...
furthermore? i noted in an early post in this thread
Glassman,
The deaths caused by Hussein are documented. They've been digging up the mass graves all over Iraq. There are reports that the true numbers are 5 million dead attributed to Hussein, mostly ****es, with some Kurds.
that you are fond of quoting Shia news sources as reliable ( see hundreds of thousands murdered in Iraq) LOL you are quoting the enemy (Iran = Shia) for your supposedly credible intel.... that is sad....
.... that is how we got into this mess in the first place...once again i say IRAN has engineered this war ....
funny i just found this at the end of the "propaganda" article too ROFLMAO Disclaimer: This article is provided by the person mentioned above. Shia News is not responsible for the contents of this article.
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[ October 15, 2005, 15:52: Message edited by: glassman ]
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Such a pitiful show. He has no idea who Big Brother is and runs about shaking an extreamly questionable resume in the face of people who have legitimate hefty ones and expect them to be impressed with his quasi-name-dropping.
Wonder what his major was? Somehow I doubt it required just a whole lot of science and he provided evidence it didn't include much in the way of literature.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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No, I have a very open mind, I simply don't see subterfuge behind every bush literally and figuratively.
I have no idea what you are talking about in being a keyholder, that term means nothing to me. I also have a degree in Biology, which was the main reason I became the nuclear, biological, chemical officer of the various units I belonged to.
I want to see the evidence that we purposely supplied any of those items with the intent to create WMD's. The United States has a policy of no use on Biologicals, and no first use of Chemicals. We also have a policy of non-proliferation of any of the three.
Their scientists came to our universities, just as they still come to our universities from all over the world. That's because our universities are often better than theirs, it isn't because OUR GOVERMENT is training them to build nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
I haven't been reading here for the past year. I've been reading for the past 3 or 4 days so unfortunately, I have no idea who is standing for what in here until I see a post from them.
If I read your post correctly, the anthrax was shipped to the ministry of trade. I'm missing the subterfuge here. Who do you believe should have gotten it?
No, diplomacy doesn't go on forever. We tried that numerous times throughout history and in the most recent similar situation it failed miserably and led to the deaths of anywhere between 40-60 million people. Had France and Britain done to Hitler what we did to Hussein, WWII never would have occured. Instead, they chose the diplomatic route, they chose appeasment. They chose to ignore blatent violations of the Treaty of Versaise and the League of Nations was shown to be a weak body that had no power whatsoever. The parallels are there and obvious to anyone with an open mind.
Hussein sought power, he sought control over his neighbors. He invaded Kuwait. This time we showed some balls and pushed him back. We then gave him a chance he didn't deserve. We placed conditions on him which he first ignored and then finally cut us off completely from the ability to supervise him. The WMD's disappeared in the meantime.
I have seen no proof that the government knew he posed no threat. You have presented opinion pieces and reports from individuals who have since been determined to be unreliable at best and outright liers at worst. But then again, the counter is that it is alwasy a right wing conspiracy to discredit these individuals. Convenient.
Shia news was the first link to come up, I felt is was sufficient.
Here's a quote from Tony Blair:
"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London.
And several other organizations:
The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."
Big Brother is a fictional concept created by a writer and since made into one, possibly two movies.
My resume is what it is, I have no need to embelish it. I find it amusing that you close your mind once again and resort to name calling rather than trying to make a valid point.
My major was Biology as I mentioned to Glassman. Heavy in human physiology, chemistry, and military science as I was also commissioned as an officer in the US Army upon graduation.
After college graduation, I completed my officer basic course which qualified me as an Ornance officer at Aberdeen Proving Ground Maryland. After that, I completed the course which qualified me as an NBC officer. I have also completed training in hazardous materials handling and completed the advanced officer course of transportation. I also served one combat tour in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War. I was the officer responsible for the training of everyone in the unit in how to prepare for an NBC attack. I was also the officer responsible for making decisions during said attacks on how to survive said attacks. Fortunately, I never had to act on that portion of my responsibility.
My major did not require any literature although I did need 6 credits of huminities which included a study of Dante's Inferno which I found quite interesting but basically useless in everyday living.
I hope your next "show" gets better because the last one truely was "pitiful".
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posted
I have no idea what you are talking about in being a keyholder, that term means nothing to me. I also have a degree in Biology, which was the main reason I became the nuclear, biological, chemical officer of the various units I belonged to.
i will neither confirm nor deny ANYTHING: if you don't know what a keyholder is? you were probaly a paper pusher.....
put it this way? i had marine guards with loaded rifles when i went to work...
and i already gave you the proof..it's in the report i posted, you just don't want to see the truth, and the truth is that war by definition is a lack of civilisation....
why on earth would we send anthrax cultures to a third world country??
you are ready to grasp negative rumors about how bad sadam was, (and even quote proapgandist materials)
i never said he was a good guy, i'm saying you are trying hard not to see the truth... you aren't reading these articles and using critical thinking here. i hate to sound rude, but youare asking for it...look here: from the State Dept site? they admit thay are speculatng Over 250 sites have been reported, of which approximately 40 have been confirmed to date. Over one million Iraqis are believed to be missing in Iraq as a result of executions, wars and defections, of whom hundreds of thousands are thought to be in mass blah blah blah so on so farth ad infinitum...
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well, he's asking for the kind of evidence that people die to get and to protect, the actual transcripts of the backroom deals.... not reasonable....
we were supporting Iraq in the Iran/iraq war, and he just doesn;t want to believe how war works.....
we were quite cozy with sadam.... and he writes it off..... it's not like i'm saying we should pull out of Iraq, just that i think we have just witnessed the BIGGEST waste of taxpayers dollars in the history of the world...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Aragorn243: If I read your post correctly, the anthrax was shipped to the ministry of trade. I'm missing the subterfuge here. Who do you believe should have gotten it?
NOBODY!!! especially not any sort of leader in the middle east, either friend or foe.
i'd like to post this link on how we used to like saddam hussein. Kinda wierd how things work out. i wonder which of our current friends will be enemies next time. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82317,00.html
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930 Posts: 678 | From: currently in hiding due to investigation | Registered: Oct 2004
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I wasn't a paper pusher, I was active in the command and control structure of small units.
No, you did not give me any proof. I read your reports, they say nothing about any deliberate act of the United States Government to provide WMD's to Iraq. You imply that is what they say, they don't say that.
We send anthrax cultures to third world countries for the same reason we would transfer any biological culture, because anthrax exists in its natural form in third world countries. In scientific research, it is important to have PURE cultures for study so that protections can be made against accidental exposure.
From the CDC:
"How common is anthrax and who can get it?
Anthrax is most common in agricultural regions where it occurs in animals. These include South and Central America, Southern and Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, the Caribbean, and the Middle East. When anthrax affects humans, it is usually due to an occupational exposure to infected animals or their products. Workers who are exposed to dead animals and animal products from other countries where anthrax is more common may become infected with B. anthracis (industrial anthrax). Anthrax in wild livestock has occurred in the United States."
I don't grasp negative rumors about anyone. I read the reports that are readily available, detailed reports that outline the atrocities that he has committed. This is a man who invaded two neighboring nations so he could secure their oil wealth. I have quoted UN reports. I have quoted CIA reports. I have quoted mass media reports. Which is propaganda?
Yes, 40 have been confirmed. Weren't you saying just a bit ago that none existed? It takes time to investigate 250 sites. It seems to by you that is trying very hard not to see the truth. A mass grave is a mass grave, 40 had been confirmed at the time that report was made.
I know how war works as well. I had three years of training, 9 years of pratical experience and a lifetime of reading since elementary school on the history of warfare. I believe I have a pretty good idea of how war works.
I ask you why you are so ready to grasp rumors against the President of the United States.
I know we were supporting Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war. I've already pointed it out. 5 airliners and $400 million dollars in credit. You claim we supplied them with weapons and WMD's yet have no proof to that claim. The $400 million gave them cash to purchase weapons from France and the Soviet Union which they did.
We were never cozy with Iraq. We re-established diplomatic relations with them. We've had diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact nations, weren't cozy with any of them.
The biggest waste of taxpayer money in the world is the welfare system. The Iraq war doesn't even come close.
Tubokid,
They already had anthrax, check the CDC report. It is throughout the middle east. Pure cultures are the same as white lab rats. They allow legitimate research to take place where impurities would make the research nearly worthless.
The article you mention has nothing to do with how "we used to like Saddam Hussein". It has to do with one specific church in Detroit that established a relationship with Saddam. This once again is how you take an article or a report and twist it to serve your purposes.
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posted
U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds
By Michael Dobbs Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01
High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.
Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.
In the Kurdish village of Halabjah in northern Iraq on March 20, 1988, a father holds his baby. Both were believed killed by an Iraqi chemical attack.
The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Throughout the 1980s, Hussein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. U.S. officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of pro-American states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia. That was enough to turn Hussein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats in Baghdad to routinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad guys."
A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.
Opinions differ among Middle East experts and former government officials about the pre-Iraqi tilt, and whether Washington could have done more to stop the flow to Baghdad of technology for building weapons of mass destruction.
"It was a horrible mistake then, but we have got it right now," says Kenneth M. Pollack, a former CIA military analyst and author of "The Threatening Storm," which makes the case for war with Iraq. "My fellow [CIA] analysts and I were warning at the time that Hussein was a very nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."
"Fundamentally, the policy was justified," argues David Newton, a former U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, who runs an anti-Hussein radio station in Prague. "We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible."
What makes present-day Hussein different from the Hussein of the 1980s, say Middle East experts, is the mellowing of the Iranian revolution and the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait that transformed the Iraqi dictator, almost overnight, from awkward ally into mortal enemy. In addition, the United States itself has changed. As a result of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, U.S. policymakers take a much more alarmist view of the threat posed by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
U.S. Shifts in Iran-Iraq War
When the Iran-Iraq war began in September 1980, with an Iraqi attack across the Shatt al Arab waterway that leads to the Persian Gulf, the United States was a bystander. The United States did not have diplomatic relations with either Baghdad or Tehran. U.S. officials had almost as little sympathy for Hussein's dictatorial brand of Arab nationalism as for the Islamic fundamentalism espoused by Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. As long as the two countries fought their way to a stalemate, nobody in Washington was disposed to intervene.
By the summer of 1982, however, the strategic picture had changed dramatically. After its initial gains, Iraq was on the defensive, and Iranian troops had advanced to within a few miles of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. U.S. intelligence information suggested the Iranians might achieve a breakthrough on the Basra front, destabilizing Kuwait, the Gulf states, and even Saudi Arabia, thereby threatening U.S. oil supplies. (turbo) i wonder what sort of benifit the US has now that they will have the entire iraqi government in thier pocket, with reguard to saudi and kuwaiti oil. And what this means for iran this time. )
"You have to understand the geostrategic context, which was very different from where we are now," said Howard Teicher, a former National Security Council official, who worked on Iraqi policy during the Reagan administration. "Realpolitik dictated that we act to prevent the situation from getting worse."
To prevent an Iraqi collapse, the Reagan administration supplied battlefield intelligence on Iranian troop buildups to the Iraqis, sometimes through third parties such as Saudi Arabia. The U.S. tilt toward Iraq was enshrined in National Security Decision Directive 114 of Nov. 26, 1983, one of the few important Reagan era foreign policy decisions that still remains classified. According to former U.S. officials, the directive stated that the United States would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran.
The presidential directive was issued amid a flurry of reports that Iraqi forces were using chemical weapons in their attempts to hold back the Iranians. In principle, Washington was strongly opposed to chemical warfare, a practice outlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In practice, U.S. condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons ranked relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particularly compared with the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.
Thus, on Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T. Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rumsfeld.
Secret talking points prepared for the first Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad enshrined some of the language from NSDD 114, including the statement that the United States would regard "any major reversal of Iraq's fortunes as a strategic defeat for the West." When Rumsfeld finally met with Hussein on Dec. 20, he told the Iraqi leader that Washington was ready for a resumption of full diplomatic relations, according to a State Department report of the conversation. Iraqi leaders later described themselves as "extremely pleased" with the Rumsfeld visit, which had "elevated U.S.-Iraqi relations to a new level."
In a September interview with CNN, Rumsfeld said he "cautioned" Hussein about the use of chemical weapons, a claim at odds with declassified State Department notes of his 90-minute meeting with the Iraqi leader. A Pentagon spokesman, Brian Whitman, now says that Rumsfeld raised the issue not with Hussein, but with Iraqi foreign minister Tariq Aziz. The State Department notes show that he mentioned it largely in passing as one of several matters that "inhibited" U.S. efforts to assist Iraq.
Rumsfeld has also said he had "nothing to do" with helping Iraq in its war against Iran. Although former U.S. officials agree that Rumsfeld was not one of the architects of the Reagan administration's tilt toward Iraq -- he was a private citizen when he was appointed Middle East envoy -- the documents show that his visits to Baghdad led to closer U.S.-Iraqi cooperation on a wide variety of fronts. Washington was willing to resume diplomatic relations immediately, but Hussein insisted on delaying such a step until the following year.
As part of its opening to Baghdad, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from the State Department terrorism list in February 1982, despite heated objections from Congress. Without such a move, Teicher says, it would have been "impossible to take even the modest steps we were contemplating" to channel assistance to Baghdad. Iraq -- along with Syria, Libya and South Yemen -- was one of four original countries on the list, which was first drawn up in 1979.
Some former U.S. officials say that removing Iraq from the terrorism list provided an incentive to Hussein to expel the Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Nidal from Baghdad in 1983. On the other hand, Iraq continued to play host to alleged terrorists throughout the '80s. The most notable was Abu Abbas, leader of the Palestine Liberation Front, who found refuge in Baghdad after being expelled from Tunis for masterminding the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro, which resulted in the killing of an elderly American tourist.
Iraq Lobbies for Arms
While Rumsfeld was talking to Hussein and Aziz in Baghdad, Iraqi diplomats and weapons merchants were fanning out across Western capitals for a diplomatic charm offensive-cum-arms buying spree. In Washington, the key figure was the Iraqi chargé d'affaires, Nizar Hamdoon, a fluent English speaker who impressed Reagan administration officials as one of the most skillful lobbyists in town.
"He arrived with a blue shirt and a white tie, straight out of the mafia," recalled Geoffrey Kemp, a Middle East specialist in the Reagan White House. "Within six months, he was hosting suave dinner parties at his residence, which he parlayed into a formidable lobbying effort. He was particularly effective with the American Jewish community."
One of Hamdoon's favorite props, says Kemp, was a green Islamic scarf allegedly found on the body of an Iranian soldier. The scarf was decorated with a map of the Middle East showing a series of arrows pointing toward Jerusalem. Hamdoon used to "parade the scarf" to conferences and congressional hearings as proof that an Iranian victory over Iraq would result in "Israel becoming a victim along with the Arabs." (turbo) once again israel comes up.
According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required." Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.
At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitating the supply of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to cut off supplies to Iran under "Operation Staunch." Those efforts were largely successful, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986 Iran-contra scandal when the White House publicly admitted trading arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States was trying to impose on the rest of the world. (turbo) very interesting.
Although U.S. arms manufacturers were not as deeply involved as German or British companies in selling weaponry to Iraq, the Reagan administration effectively turned a blind eye to the export of "dual use" items such as chemical precursors and steel tubes that can have military and civilian applications. According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.
When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile components, and computers from American suppliers, including such household names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being used for military purposes.
A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee turned up dozens of biological agents shipped to Iraq during the mid-'80s under license from the Commerce Department, including various strains of anthrax, subsequently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare program. The Commerce Department also approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare.
The fact that Iraq was using chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In February 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged their use by issuing a chilling warning to Iran. "The invaders should know that for every harmful insect, there is an insecticide capable of annihilating it . . . and Iraq possesses this annihilation insecticide."
Chemicals Kill Kurds
In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The attacks, which were part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate rebel-controlled villages, provoked outrage on Capitol Hill and renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and White House were also outraged -- but not to the point of doing anything that might seriously damage relations with Baghdad.
"The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is . . . important to our long-term political and economic objectives," Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy wrote in a September 1988 memorandum that addressed the chemical weapons question. "We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis."
Bush administration spokesmen have cited Hussein's use of chemical weapons "against his own people" -- and particularly the March 1988 attack on the Kurdish village of Halabjah -- to bolster their argument that his regime presents a "grave and gathering danger" to the United States.
The Iraqis continued to use chemical weapons against the Iranians until the end of the Iran-Iraq war. A U.S. air force intelligence officer, Rick Francona, reported finding widespread use of Iraqi nerve gas when he toured the Al Faw peninsula in southern Iraq in the summer of 1988, after its recapture by the Iraqi army. The battlefield was littered with atropine injectors used by panicky Iranian troops as an antidote against Iraqi nerve gas attacks.
Far from declining, the supply of U.S. military intelligence to Iraq actually expanded in 1988, according to a 1999 book by Francona, "Ally to Adversary: an Eyewitness Account of Iraq's Fall from Grace." Informed sources said much of the battlefield intelligence was channeled to the Iraqis by the CIA office in Baghdad.
Although U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened up in the late 1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."
The U.S. policy of cultivating Hussein as a moderate and reasonable Arab leader continued right up until he invaded Kuwait in August 1990, documents show. When the then-U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie, met with Hussein on July 25, 1990, a week before the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, she assured him that Bush "wanted better and deeper relations," according to an Iraqi transcript of the conversation. "President Bush is an intelligent man," the ambassador told Hussein, referring to the father of the current president. "He is not going to declare an economic war against Iraq."
(turbo) maybe this is why saddam thought he could invade kuwait because he thought that the US supported his actions in the middle east, or would at least turn a blind eye.
"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930 Posts: 678 | From: currently in hiding due to investigation | Registered: Oct 2004
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Thanks for the article supporting just about everything I said.
US provided Credit not weapons.
US provided dual use items, not weapons.
US wanted improved diplomatic relations (I thought that's what you guys wanted)
US provided items the Iraq's converted for military use, not weapons.
Still no proof (which you see but is not there) that the US provided them with weapons, provided them with dual use items and encouraged them to make weapons.
Maybe Saddam invaded Kuwait because he felt he could get away with it. The UN was always a bunch of weinies up to that point, why change now.
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I wasn't a paper pusher, I was active in the command and control structure of small units.
No, you did not give me any proof. I read your reports, they say nothing about any deliberate act of the United States Government to provide WMD's to Iraq. You imply that is what they say, they don't say that.
i don't know how on earth you can say that? you are playing semantic games... and it really isn't worth the effort to try to 'splain to you that sadam was a dictator of a tiny country that we sent anthrax cultures to, because even a junior high school student would understand that a dictator has complete control over a country...
your logic is very circular....
the fact: it doesn't matter what part of the friggin country we sent it to cuz everybody there was working for sadam... you don't work for OUR govt anymore i hope, cuz if you do we are in even worse trouble that i thought...
furthermore? you yourself did say that bioweps are hightly environmentally sensitve...if you read some of my older posts you will find that i used that statement months ago to argue why it was always unlikelty that sadam had bioweps....and that it was even more unlikely they were stashed in the desert since they have to be carefully maintained in controlled environments
sadam invaded kuwait because kuwait WAS actually a breakaway state from Iraq... he believed we gave him a green light to do it...
and kuwait was drilling into iraq oil....
[ October 16, 2005, 01:03: Message edited by: glassman ]
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aragorn243: Turbokid,
Thanks for the article supporting just about everything I said.
US provided Credit not weapons.
you musta missed this part of the article:
Although U.S. arms manufacturers were not as deeply involved as German or British companies in selling weaponry to Iraq, the Reagan administration effectively turned a blind eye to the export of "dual use" items such as chemical precursors and steel tubes that can have military and civilian applications. According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.
US provided dual use items, not weapons.
US wanted improved diplomatic relations (I thought that's what you guys wanted)
US provided items the Iraq's converted for military use, not weapons.
Still no proof (which you see but is not there) that the US provided them with weapons, provided them with dual use items and encouraged them to make weapons.
Maybe Saddam invaded Kuwait because he felt he could get away with it. The UN was always a bunch of weinies up to that point, why change now.
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