posted
Art :If I am a rich and powerful foreigner, you envy me - a form of hate - and express negative attitudes about my actions.
Lucy: nonsense. only a person in need of help, be it psychological or spiritual, has this kind of reaction. (also, envy is not a form of hate.) being foreign is irrelevant. (if they speak a language i speak, thats a plus. have an accent i like, also a plus..) what have we got here? a Person, who is Rich and Powerful. that's not enough information to know how i'd feel about him/her. perhaps the power and wealth was achieved by being smart and charming, funny, or talented..qualities i love.
power and wealth are not deal breakers, not even for the poor. (only for the stupid. and you should always teach to the top of the class.) (and drink plenty of water.)
ART: If I am rich and powerful, and give welfare to you and other foreigners, you still may envy me, but now have positive attutudes about me - comes out as respect by you of me.
Lucy: No again. True respect is won in other ways. Simply giving aid is not a respect guarantor.. there will be some form of gratitude probably. but it depends on the circumstances. the expression "there's no such thing as a free lunch" don't come from nowhere.
(i could imagine asking someone i respect for aid, he says no. and i still respect him. similarly i can imagine accepting help from someone i don't respect.. and not having the experience change my respect level, fundamentally.)
You seem to assume that anyone who says "we must stop hurting ppl abroad" also believes "we must help ppl abroad." not so. many seem to say: "lets stop hurting ppl out there, and focus on our own (quite serious now) problems at home."
Art: But my helping foreigners makes me less rich, not, as you say, more, and the helped foreigners richer.
Lucy: first of all, giving can be very wise and beneficial. I just gave someone something yesterday, something i didn't really want to part with, and she turned around and gave me several things i was very happy to get. ..
some guy on here has a postscript about the sweet scent of flowers given, remaining on the hands of the giver. there is a natural law of karma, that you can easily track in your own life, (if you'd like to try..) All the loving-kindness based actions --compassion, generocity, patience, forgiveness-- are paid back as 3-baggers. it's really just "how it is." that doesn't mean giving unwisely.
ART: Liberals want to give away the store to win some sort of world popularity contest -
Lucy: again, that doesn't mean, give unwisely..i.e: more than you can afford to give.. And it's not the only way to win a popularity contest, by the way. you could like, just.. be cool.
thinking the only way to be liked is by giving away a lot of stuff is true insecurity.
furthermore, you can do a lot more, with a lot of friends. and like i keep saying, bcs repetition is the secret of learning, you don't have to give away the store to get friends. your ideas about "the more enemies we have the better we're doing" is MANIACAL, arty.
... i lie awake at night...rocking back and forth like a log at sea, humming autistically, in great distress .. over your mind..
ps. it always cracks me up how you guys, A & G, take any thread back to the main ongoing beaten dead horse arguments. this was supposed to be about the pead dope!
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posted
Art : If I am a rich and powerful foreigner, you envy me - a form of hate - and express negative attitudes about my actions.
Lucy: Nonsense. only a person in need of help, be it psychological or spiritual, has this kind of reaction. (also, envy is not a form of hate.) being foreign is irrelevant. (if they speak a language I speak, that's a plus. have an accent I like, also a plus..) what have we got here? a Person, who is Rich and Powerful. that's not enough information to know how i'd feel about him/her.
Art: Very good, Lucy. You are right in saying that envy is not necessarily hate - you caught me in oversimplified thinking (my excuse is that the oversimplification was needed for brevity). Let me clarify:
If I envy a valued friend, it will not activate resentment, where resentment is a mild form of the more inclusive hate.
If I envy a non-friend it will likely activate resentment (mild hate). An example is someone who says, "It is disgraceful that business executives (or movie stars, rock/pop stars, famous lawyers, basketball/baseball players, etc..) make so much money - they don't deserve that much!" Here we have envy that activates resentment (mild hate).
If a foreigner envies America because it is rich and powerful, and from this envies Americans, this is activating of resentment. The French are notorious for resentment of foreigners - they are chauvinistic. Love is prioritzed, extending from self, to family, to friends, to nation. We actually love ourselves in loving family, friends, and nation - we help family and freinds, and even our nation, and they usually reciprocate - it comes back to us. Love is the basis of evaluations of others, including morality evaluations. Love is not usually extended to out-group members, i.e., foreigners, unless they are acepted as friends - there is a innate tendency to distrust and exclude out-group members (including other races). Foreigners have innate a tendency to distrust, and compete with us (related to hate as peripheral forms of hate), and we with them. Disrespect is more easily attained between foreigners.
Foreigners are not likely to say, "I envy and resent Americans for being rich and powerful.", even though this is their inner feeling. They need to justify this feeling to themselves (envy is generally negatively evaluated as somewhat improper or immoral) by attaching it to an acceptable reason, such as, "I hate America for invading Iraq."
ART: If I am rich and powerful, and give welfare to you and other foreigners, you still may envy me, but now have positive attutudes about me - comes out as respect by you of me.
Lucy: No again. True respect is won in other ways. Simply giving aid is not a respect guarantor.. there will be some form of gratitude probably.
Art: Yes, and gratitude activates positive attitudes toward the benefactor. Respect is measured by such postive attitudes - people like you when you give things to them and they show respect, in many ways, toward you. Respect is not restricted to admiration for achievements, as you seem to think, but can also follow from gratitude..
Lucy: I could imagine asking someone I respect for aid, he says no, and I still respect him.
Art: Depends on whether you feel it is deserved by you. If you feel he could aid you and that you deserve it, you will feel some resentment (mild hate) over his refusal, and negatively evaluate him as a person - disrespect to a mild degree.
Lucy: Similarly I can imagine accepting help from someone I don't respect.. and not having the experience change my respect level...
Art: If you get aid from someone you disrespect, and feel it is deserved by you, it may not change your previous disrespect as you say. It all depends on the amount of aid and the degree to which you evaluate the aid as deserved by you. If we gave each black in America $100 for reparation payment, to compensate for slavery of their ancestors, it likely would not make them respect whites any more than they did. If we gave them each $1,000,000 they would respect whites more than they did. Gratitude, as well as admiration for achievements, can engender respect.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
Lucy: You seem to assume that anyone who says "we must stop hurting ppl abroad" also believes "we must help ppl abroad." not so. many seem to say: "lets stop hurting ppl out there, and focus on our own (quite serious now) problems at home."
Art: Fighting terrorism versus helping parasites at home is a decsison that must be made.
Art: But my helping foreigners makes me less rich, not, as you say, more, and the helped foreigners richer.
Lucy: First of all, giving can be very wise and beneficial. I just gave someone something yesterday, something i didn't really want to part with, and she turned around and gave me several things i was very happy to get. ..
Art: Yes, when you give to a friend or potential friend, but not when you give to someone who would exploit you. Nations are busily trying to exploit each other all of the time - the morality of business. Now if we give to a nation, they will return it to us in some way if this means we will give to them again, and vice-versa in reciprocal giving (conditional love). This is good practice and builds allies. We helped Russia immensely after the fall of Communism, and it was largely wasted - they took us for billions and have done little in return. They are now selling weapons to our enemies in spite of our protests. That is what I am talking about in giving away the store.
Lucy: There is a natural law of karma, that you can easily track in your own life, (if you'd like to try..) All the loving-kindness based actions - compassion, generosity, patience, forgiveness - are paid back as 3-baggers.
Art: Yes, you are right! Send me $100 - I need to buy some cocaine.
Lucy: That doesn't mean giving unwisely.
Art: So, I don't get the $100? How about just $50. Don't you think it will be eventually rewarded somehow - karma or whatever?
ART: Liberals want to give away the store to win some sort of world popularity contest -
Lucy: again, that doesn't mean, give unwisely..i.e: more than you can afford to give.. And it's not the only way to win a popularity contest, by the way. you could like, just.. be cool.
Art: So if we were cool evey other nation would like us. Then we could go on killing and robbing abroad and get help from them while we killed and robbed them. How can we be cool?
Lucy: Furthermore, you can do a lot more, with a lot of friends.
Art: Friends cost money in the international competition among nations - sometimes it costs more than we get back - we get exploited for being nice to other nations. Any nation that practices this lowers the standard of living for their citizens.
Lucy: Yyour ideas about "the more enemies we have the better we're doing" is MANIACAL, arty.
Art: No, it means we are winning in the international competition among nations, and if you fail to see this you are in the La La land of universal love.
Lucy:... I lie awake at night...rocking back and forth like a log at sea, humming autistically, in great distress .. over your mind..
Art: Yes, but do you still respect me in the morning?
Lucy: PS: It always cracks me up how you guys, A & G, take any thread back to the main ongoing beaten dead horse arguments. this was supposed to be about the pead dope!
Art: So, we should quit beating the dead horse and instea pead the dead dope.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
i disagree with the idea that feelings of envy for a non-friend naturally graduate to feelings of resentment. or that one who resents how obscenely rich a performer or athelete gets, would necessarily hate the performer, (rather than to simply bemoan the greater system which makes it possible.)
as if: the little girl who cries because another little girl is prettier, never learns the lesson that life's just not fair, and to just deal with what you've got. it's like you're saying the whole world is crawling with ppl who never manage to learn this basic life lesson. you focus on the lowest common denominator in mankind. of what you describe as *exemplary of human nature*, none of it applies to my own personal experience. for me, no experience of envy leads to any form of hate. it's too illogical for my mind to accept. there are ppl who do make this mistake, here, and abroad.. but it's the lowest of the low, and we should focus on elevating the low, not taking their attitudes to be some kind of universal norm.
i also don't think you can buy respect. you might have respect-worthy aims, and you might use money to achieve those aims. but money alone never buys respect. it's too dirty. it's the man who is able to clean that filthy money! by using it righteously! who ultimately wins the most respect.. (another catch- usually respect is won by those who are not focussed on winning it.)
and i don't like "black" as a noun. pls. say black person. for some reason it works in the plural and not the singular. whites and blacks, ok. but "every white i meet these days wants to talk about nascar.." ? doesn't sound right..
art:
quote:The light of truth is blinding to most. More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
posted
Art: Your points are valid, but your ideas might be sharpened some by considering my "slanted" perspective, per the dialogue below:
Lucy Lastic: I disagree with the idea that feelings of envy for a non-friend naturally graduate to feelings of resentment, or that one who resents how obscenely rich a performer or athelete gets, would necessarily hate the performer, (rather than to simply bemoan the greater system which makes it possible.)
Art: So, you are saying if you don't begrudge the CEO or performer their obscenely high salary then you begrudge the system that made it possible. Isn't this resentment in either case just different targets of that resentment?
Lucy:....the little girl who cries because another little girl is prettier, never learns the lesson that life's just not fair, and to just deal with what you've got. It's like you're saying the whole world is crawling with ppl who never manage to learn this basic life lesson.
Art: Yes, the idea that you should never expect fairness serves to countercondition the resentment (where expectations of fairness lead to resentment from envy when there is no perceived fairness as was expected).
Your assumption that everyone has learned not to expect any fairnes or justice is not justified in view of the widespread resentment over business executive salaries, etc.
Lucy: You focus on the lowest common denominator in mankind. of what you describe as *exemplary of human nature*, none of it applies to my own personal experience. for me, no experience of envy leads to any form of hate. it's too illogical for my mind to accept. there are ppl who do make this mistake, here, and abroad.. but it's the lowest of the low, and we should focus on elevating the low, not taking their attitudes to be some kind of universal norm.
Art: I would say you are the minority in not being envious of what others have, and not being resentful over their having it (and not yourself). Perhaps you should be the next Pope. Or, perhaps you are young, stunningly beautiful, extremely intelligent and creative, have a delightful personality, and inherited billions of dollars. If so, I envy and resent you.
Lucy: I also don't think you can buy respect.
Art: Just send me the $50 and I will respect you. Send me more and I will respect you more. You are thinking of the respect following admiration of positve achievements, actions, or traits. Money can't buy this type. However, a type of respectf can follow when someone supports you - a teenager may respect a parent for providing for them, without particularly admiring the parent for anything.
Lucy: I don't like "black" as a noun. pls. say black person. For some reason it works in the plural and not the singular. whites and blacks, ok. but "every white i meet these days wants to talk about nascar.." ? doesn't sound right..
Art: Sorry to offend your sensibilities (said sarcastically while actually taking some mild sadistic delight in offending them - a rose is the same by any other name, etc.).
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
I agree with some of Lucys points. Arts points demonstrate his level on non-awareness.
Those that envy those that ahve more or the unfairness of life, etc, usually remain at that level and whine. If somehow they becoem aware that the abundance of some does not create scarcity ...then they to can have more abundance in their life. Abundance is created but self-pity and envy thoughts keep you at that level. When I see others have, i think it is great because i can be there to.
to bring negativity into a situation keeps you there unless you become aware that my abundance does not deprove you of anything but permits more.
This universe hass ALL we want and it is our state of mind that create s our reality. Respect is not earned by mone ybut the integrity of a person iMHO.
And, giving is not all monetary. What I give in words can be worth alot more to a person's growth and hence well-being then any onetary value.
But, I express these thoughts to share and am giving to those that are ready to learn what I said.
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quote:Originally posted by Ktrain420: U FOLKS SAYIN' THE POPE IS GOIN' TO HELL.......YA BETTER BE CAREFUL YOUR SELF.......THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT ...........
the idea is so ridiculous i didn't even consider it..
everybody knows the Pope is the main real eastate broker for heaven...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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posted
art: Or, perhaps you are young, stunningly beautiful, extremely intelligent and creative, have a delightful personality, and inherited billions of dollars.
lucy: you were on a great run there.. terrible finish though.
art: If so, I envy and resent you.
lucy: and you don't lie convincingly.
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quote:Originally posted by Ktrain420: U FOLKS SAYIN' THE POPE IS GOIN' TO HELL.......YA BETTER BE CAREFUL YOUR SELF.......THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT ...........
The Catholic church like any organized religion, sells entertainment for the ignorant masses. The Pope lives in an palace with gold ornaments, expensive paintings, and riches. The leaders of the church live high on the hog and have turned the other way to ignore priests that sexually abuse kids and ruin their lives. God likes this?
Actually there is no God that likes or dislikes it, and hell is purely of your own creation.
I spit on the Pope and the Catholic church!
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
Art: Or, perhaps you are young, stunningly beautiful, extremely intelligent and creative, have a delightful personality, and inherited billions of dollars.
Lucy: You were on a great run there.. terrible finish though.
Art: If you were as I described, then you would be free of envy because tyou have it all.
Art: If so, I envy and resent you.
Lucy:...and you don't lie convincingly.
Art: I don't tell the truth convincingly either.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: I agree with some of Lucy's points. Art's points demonstrate his level on non-awareness.
Those that envy those that have more, or the unfairness of life, etc., usually remain at that level and whine. If somehow they become aware that the abundance of some does not create scarcity ...then they to can have more abundance in their life.
Abundance is created but self-pity and envy thoughts keep you at that level.
When I see others have, I think it is great because I can be there to.
To bring negativity into a situation keeps you there unless you become aware that my abundance does not deprive you of anything but permits more.
This universe hass ALL we want and it is our state of mind that creates our reality.
Respect is not earned by money but the integrity of a person IMHO.
And, giving is not all monetary. What I give in words can be worth alot more to a person's growth and hence well-being then any monetary value.
But, I express these thoughts to share and am giving to those that are ready to learn what I said.
Art: Although I am not one that is ready to learn your offerings (LOL), your ideas are mature and wise. Envy, and its cousin self-pity, will harm anyone engaging in them. Wisdom about life reveals this understanding.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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he recongnized September 11th as an attack on humanity itself, but it his belief as is Jesus' that we should "love our enemy" because that is the only path to true victory
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quote:Originally posted by Lucy Lastic: orig. posted by kevin:
quote:but it his belief as is Jesus' that we should "love our enemy" because that is the only path to true victory
probably the single most brilliant thing jesus ever said.. not that it's a competition..
That is the stupidest thing Christ ever said - only works when your enemy is moral but that is rarely the case. It is the path to defeat - if we had tried to love Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, the terrorists, etc., they would have taken the opportunity to destroy us.
Clinton tried the love approach with N. Korea, giving them money and goods in return for their assurance to cease developing atomic weapons. In return they secretly now have atomic bombs.
Don't you La La land people ever look at history?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
What Jesus said was very wise and it takes an enlightened being to see it. If we loved our enemies then there would be no hitler's, stalin's, osama's etc.. They are only a perception of the world. Thes images, whatever exist ONLY because we give them reality thru our hatred. If we truly loved, then our reality would be different. What we witness is our state of mind. If we trule loved, then we would not bear witness to hatred. Fear is an illusion as exemplified by our distorted perceptions of reality. We witness fear, etc... because we have it intrinsically. I will however add, but before we are able to love others, we have to learn to love ourselves. If we truly loved ourselves, then we would not project hate externally or internally.
In order to make this world a better place, and rid it of hatred, it only takes every being to love oneself. We all love..a matter of degree but in pure love, no hatred. So, if I loved myself then I would have no need to project hate. What I witness is only eyes to my soul.
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posted
But, if you look at the hatred temporally then it seems stupid because those we hate are our enemy. We ahve to get rid of those that hate us ....But at the essence of this temporal perception is only ourself.
In this earth plane, the external is our perceived reality but it is the internal self that created the external. So many, try to fix the external externally but in truth the external can only be changed within.
However, the external seems real and since in this temporal existence, we feel pain, we quantify all in duality and think this duality is real.
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posted
I think the question becomes...how do we love our enemies??? I now see it in clarity..we have to love oneself to love our enemies. Then,our collective reality will be different...
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but, i think my appeals are about over....
