posted
yeah, right, new american century posted their plan before Bush even got into the primaries... i don't buy into ALL of the conspiracy crap either.
but some of it? it doesn't take anything but common sense to put together if you have an open mind... some people (on BOTH sides) will never have an open mind....
the Valerie Plame case doesn't take any imagination at all...the only real question is why Novak hasn't been charged...find anything in Westlaw? or whatever youzguyz fancy database is?
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During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife. It was an offhand revelation from this official, who is no partisan gunslinger. When I called another official for confirmation, he said: "Oh, you know about it." The published report that somebody in the White House failed to plant this story with six reporters and finally found me as a willing pawn is simply untrue.
posted
Robert Novak Believes in Revealing Confidential Sources, After All
By Greg Mitchell
Published: September 13, 2004 11:00 AM EDT
NEW YORK Syndicated columnist Robert Novak apparently believes that the principle of not revealing confidential sources is rather flexible.
The man who has stood on this principle for months, in deflecting calls for him to identify who in the Bush administration "outed" CIA operative Valerie Plame, said this weekend on national television that CBS should release the name of its source for the documents at the center of the dispute over its recent program on President Bush's National Guard service.
posted
it might make things more clear if you read the original article... pretty much states that the CIA had analysts that disagreed about the nuclear WMD thing, and that really IS the point isn't it?
posted
i have a problem with presenting false data...
the issue is not about "stealing" elections ..LOL as if that's possible short of count rigging...
the isssue is more about how the winners get to write the history.....
Reluctance at the White House to admit a mistake has led Democrats ever closer to saying the president lied
to this day, you and others still cling to the idea that Bush was not wrong...
yet, Bush himself has "acknowledged" there are no WMD. He still claims he would have invaded anyway, and that gets the crux of the issue doesn't it...
is it "right" to invade a country that It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick
you spend a lot of time trying to say that morals don't exist, yet, i have them nonetheless, and somehow, it just doesn't compute...
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posted
Nearly every body thought Saddam had WMD - most Democrats did as well as Europeans. It was not that Bush was wrong - everybody was wrong. Some may yet turn up.
He jerked the UN inspectors around and did not give them unfettered access for their inspections.
He refused to allow unfettered inspection access by the Bush ultimatum date.
Saddam's behavior was one of hiding WMD and preventing UN inspectors from finding them.
Hindsight is always perfect but we can't act in hindsight can we. We can only criticize as if we knew it would happen but their was no such criticism by Democrats or Republicans in the foresight situation that decisions are made from.
Bush wanted to invade and hung his hat on WMD as an issue to get agreement on. No one would have followed Bush's lead if he had said: "We need to topple Saddam since Saddam is a continual threat to mideast peace, and then we need to initiate democracy in the mideast, and with our military presence in Iraq we can fight terrorism there and not at home, and then force Syria and Iran to quit supporting terrorism, and then force the Palestinians to make peace with Israel."
Even if we never find Saddam's WMD the invasion of Iraq was neceesary for peace in the mideast and the emasculation of terrorism, as is now happening.
I never said morals don't exist. I said morals were relative and not absolute. We acted morally in invading Iraq. It best served the interests of the USA. The USA ias not a charity to the rest of the world - we compete with other countries economically and politically, as they do us. Bush was brilliant in serving us.
Move to Canada or France. You will be poor but can hate the USA easier.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: I have a problem with presenting false data...the issue is not about "stealing" elections ..
Art: When a national tv network like CBS airs damaging lies about Bush just before the election, it is about stealing the election from Bush by getting voters to switch their votes to Kerry.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
Art:Even if we never find Saddam's WMD the invasion of Iraq was neceesary for peace in the mideast and the emasculation of terrorism, as is now happening.
Glassman:even now you deny the fact that they didn't exist... according to the President's OWN report..they were destroyed a long time ago..
ART: I never said morals don't exist. I said morals were relative and not absolute. We acted morally in invading Iraq. It best served the interests of the USA. The USA ias not a charity to the rest of the world - we compete with other countries economically and politically, as they do us. Bush was brilliant in serving us.
glassman: you are still saying morals don't exist with this statement...
Art:Move to Canada or France. You will be poor but can hate the USA easier.
glassman: more love it or leave it rhetoric...fascism isn't very sexy....BTW? i don't think either Canada or France are considered poor...they both have very high standards of living....
Art: When a national tv network like CBS airs damaging lies about Bush just before the election, it is about stealing the election from Bush by getting voters to switch their votes to Kerry.
glassamn: i think Dan Rather got what he deserves...why don't they go after Novak now?
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posted
Art: Even if we never find Saddam's WMD the invasion of Iraq was neceesary for peace in the mideast and the emasculation of terrorism, as is now happening.
Glassman: even now you deny the fact that they didn't exist... according to the President's OWN report..they were destroyed a long time ago..
Art: I am saying I don't know - how do we know all were destroyed? May have been, but who knows? The US report is the best estimate for now. I am also saying it doesn't matter if Saddam had WMD or not when we invaded - he acted like he did and refused unfettered UN inspections in violation of many UN resolutions.
ART: I never said morals don't exist. I said morals were relative and not absolute. We acted morally in invading Iraq. It best served the interests of the USA. The USA ias not a charity to the rest of the world - we compete with other countries economically and politically, as they do us. Bush was brilliant in serving us.
glassman: you are still saying morals don't exist with this statement...
Art: How? Morals exist as I have carefully defined how in past posts.
Art:Move to Canada or France. You will be poor but can hate the USA easier.
glassman: more love it or leave it rhetoric...fascism isn't very sexy....BTW? i don't think either Canada or France are considered poor...they both have very high standards of living....
Art: Not as high as in the USA. Since 1990 economic growth in France and Germany has dropped 23 percent behind the USA - a huge lag.
Art: When a national tv network like CBS airs damaging lies about Bush just before the election, it is about stealing the election from Bush by getting voters to switch their votes to Kerry.
Glassman: i think Dan Rather got what he deserves...why don't they go after Novak now?
Art: Did Novak swing many thousands of voters, to try to reverse election results, by widely and repeatedly spreading lies about one candidate?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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posted
Art: Did Novak swing many thousands of voters, to try to reverse election results, by widely and repeatedly spreading lies about one candidate?
glassman:Dan Rather presented forged documents, and did NOT do the DUE DILLIGENCE(oddly enough? forged documents were relied upon to present "evidence" to the UN that Saddam was building a nuke wep factory)
NOVAK may or may not have committed a felony.. whoever told him that Valerie Plame was a CIA operative most likey DID commit a felony.... not to mention endanger the lives of many other operatives that she had dealings with in the past... read the article...it wasn't even really a news article it was an opinion article..
furthermore, the article had the effect of silencing anyone in the intel community who contemplated coming forward with valid arguments in opposition to the "intel" that was sought after...
as far as morals go? there is a diference between personal morals and NATIONAL morals...i agree...
BUT, there is no way Bush would have gotten the country behind his goal of invading Iraq if the truth about Saddam's WMD was known... the ends DO NOT justify the means....
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glassman:Dan Rather presented forged documents, and did NOT do the DUE DILLIGENCE(oddly enough? forged documents were relied upon to present "evidence" to the UN that Saddam was building a nuke wep factory)
maybe i think the same thing should happen to EVERYBODY who does this.....
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posted
Glassman, you still don't understand morality.
We differ in our personal moral evaluations because we differ in our needs, and all evaluations are need based. We each differ in what we perceive as best for our nation, for our friends, for our family, and for ourselves, and these morality evaluations can differ within one person. Risking your life to fight for your nation puts the national morality above that of family or self, for instance, where not risking your life to fight for your nation is moral in terms of what is best for yourself and your family.
The majority of the citizens' national morality evaluation, as to what is best for the nation now and in the future, is the national morality from the nation's perspective. This evalution was to go to war in Iraq was it not? It may not have been the morality for many of the troops who had joined the armed service before 9/11/2001, thinking they would have been easy service with litle risk.
Your assertion that the ends do not justify the means is nonsense.
The end often justifies the means. This is real like, not liberal idealism divorced from reality.
A General sends a thousand troops to their death, on a suicdal mission, but this will eventuate in saving several thousand of his troops' lives later. The end, saving many lives, justifies the means, sending some to their death and sacrificing some lives.
We dropped atomic bombs to end the war against Japan, when Japan was preparing for a prolonged homeland defense against a US invasion that would habve dragged the war on for years, at the cost ove over a million lives on both sides. The end, bringing the war to a quick end with zero US lives lost and sparing over a million lives later lost, justified the means, using Atomic bombs to kill thousands of Japanese.
The end doesn't justify the means only:
1. When the end was not achieved by the means, or
2. When the end is achieved but the costs of the means is greater than the gain from the end achieved.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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