quote:Originally posted by keithsan: Balance is good what was the complaint?
no complaint...wondering what's up... allying with the Paki's has proven to be risky, to say the least, but i don't object... i don't think it was too bright to increase nuke proliferation, but....
as far as moaning about war? i ain't moaning... i am not anti-war..
we are undergoing a major shift in policy.this policy shift does not represent our traditional conservative attitudes. it's not conservative.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Art: That is conservative foreign policy in action - pursue your self-interests always in dealing with other countries and help those who help you.
so in this case how have we pursued self interest in helping israel out? they dont help us in any way, they dont buy anything we produce, except weapons, but we give them the money to buy them with. And they drag us into their holy war with arabs. You said it yourself that every county deals with other countries when it best suits them, so how is it in our best interest to fully support a country who doesnt return the favor?
ART:"Weaknes invites aggression.
A balance of power achieves mutual strength and eliminates weakness on either side - promotes peace."
So why dont we provide palestine with the same weapons as the israelis? a balance of power will promote peace wouldnt it?
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930
IP: Logged |
posted
Art: That is conservative foreign policy in action - pursue your self-interests always in dealing with other countries and help those who help you.
TK: So in this case how have we pursued self interest in helping israel out? they dont help us in any way, they dont buy anything we produce, except weapons, but we give them the money to buy them with. And they drag us into their holy war with arabs.
Art: First of all, it is not Israel's holy war with the Arabs. It is the Arabs unprovoked multiple invasions, and terrorist attacks against Israel. Why do you try to demonize Israel when it is the Arabs that are the unjustifiable aggressors? The UN resolutions establisghed tha tisrael be returned to the arid and valueless land that was historically theirs. The Arabs did not invade Israel for oil, but simply to kill Jews, and the U.S. helped the Israelis defend themselves, and this persists to today.
Second, it was in the US interests for us to help Israel in their self-defense. One reason was world stability necessary for world trade witht he US. Stability in the world helps the US economy. If we do nothing to repel unjustified invasions in a area that is in our economic or geopolitical interests, this will encourage future such invasiosn and further damage our interests.
Our interests were at stake in the mideast vis-a-vis economic and geopolitical competition with the Russians and Europeans at the end of WW II. Russia and France had sided with the Arabs, while Britian allied with the US in siding with Israel so as to balance the mideast influence with Russia and France.
A strong Israel has given us mideast influence. You think it is only negative but it is positive in giving us leverage against the Arabs. There has always been an implicit threat that at any time, the US and Israel could ally militarily and take over mideast oil. This, along with US business investment, enabled us to make oil deals with mideast nations
Now that we have a military presence in the mideast, that leverage is even stronger, hence we can bring democracy to the mideast, forge a Israeli-Palestinian pecae, get Syria out of Lebanon, and make Iran give up nuclear weapons.
France, Germany, Russia and China are fuming with our mideast influence now, which threatens to hurt their oil-fueled economies while the US benefits.
Liberals simply don't understand the warfare always being fought economically beteen nations, backed by political and military strength.
Those people that understand this see the brilliance in the Bush strategy in foreign policy, that will pay off in the future with a better standard of living than we would optherwise have.
ART:"Weaknes invites aggression.
A balance of power achieves mutual strength and eliminates weakness on either side - promotes peace."
TK: So why dont we provide Palestine with the same weapons as the israelis? a balance of power will promote peace wouldnt it?
Art: For the same reason that we did not give the Japanese the atomic bomb before we used it against them. You would arm your enemy so they could destroy you better.
There is no, nor has their ever been a Palestinian state. The Palestinians occupy Israeli land that Israel won in fighting of multiple unprovoked Arab invasions - any invaded country that counterattacks, and takes over land of the invader, has a historically validated right to that territory.
The Palestinians are our enemy - they are remnants of Arabs that invaded our ally (Israel). We do not reward our enemies by arming them or disarming ourselves or allies. We punish our enemies by disarming them and arming ourselves and our allies. Some liberals do the opposite - such as saying in the past that we should unilaterally disarm our nuclear weapons. Such people are traitors as they would destroy the US.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
France, Germany, Russia and China are fuming with our mideast influence now, which threatens to hurt their oil-fueled economies while the US benefits.
Liberals simply don't understand the warfare always being fought economically beteen nations, backed by political and military strength.
liberalieberaliberal...WTF is up with this Art?
you forgot INDIA too...
add them? and guess what? it's US against the NEXT what?; 4 or 5 biggest powers in the world?
is this what you call a BRILLIANT strategy?
this is EXACTLY why i say we aren't in such good shape right now, and it's got nutn' to do with yer lib VS consvtv......
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
whining? i just don't agree with strategy of smackdown? and i'm whining?
i'm all for taking over the world...USING economic weapons first and bombs last...i don't think we gave it enough time and you know why? cuz they KNEW they had to do it quick while everybody was still thinking 9-11...
posted
Glassman: whining? i just don't agree with strategy of smackdown? and i'm whining?
Art: Yep. You whine that we take a competitive approach in the world marketplace to include military strategy when our welfare is unfairly threatened. You whine about Iraq when it was the best solution to achieve mideast peace and thereby retain our geopolitical and economic interests there. Your offer no effective alternative to the one we took, just whine, like other liberals.
And yes, we will have mideast peace in 5-10 years, and would have had much more destruction and instability over the next 15 years in the mideast compared to that we will have now after invsding Iraq. We paid now but avoided paying much more later.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
well, you are consistent anyway... you have a strange definition of whining...
world marketplace? LOL, yeah.....we'll see, i ain't said a damn thing about pulling out of Iraq and you know it...we can't leave....probably ever...
when abu graib came out? i said that's war...and war is hell... but because i disagree with the strategy? you call me a liberal...LOL i'm a liberal and Saddam was about to invade the US...
when we pay 3$ a gallon for gas this summer? you won't here me whining then either cuz i'm trading...
there is a difference to winning WW2 and this one Art...you'll see...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
India Slams U.S. Move to Sell F-16s to Pakistan
March 28, 2005
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India criticized the U.S. government's decision to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan on Monday, saying the move could affect the composite dialogue between New Delhi and Islamabad.
Opposition steps up Pakistan protest By Zaffar Abbas BBC Islamabad correspondent
Opposition members in Pakistan have held a demonstration against President Pervez Musharraf's decision to represent the country at the United Nations.
Members boycotted sessions in both houses of parliament.
They described President Musharraf as an unelected military ruler and said that in the presence of an elected prime minister he has no right to represent the country at the international forum.
hmmmmmmmmmmm.....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
i would say that the fact that N Korea and Iran both have acquired Nuke Technology from them is concern enough.... remember...Saddam and Osama were BOTH once our allies too..
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
Pakistan was once out of favor with us as an enemy in supporting terrorism.
Thwy have begun to rehabilitate and are now in favor, tenuously. They need to do more to control their own al Qaeda sympathizers who want to take over the country.
Coalitions change with changed circumstances. We are now allied with Japan who we once were at war with. Saddam and bin Laden were once used by us as allies, and then became our enemies.
Still don't see your point with this.
[ March 28, 2005, 22:02: Message edited by: Art ]
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
LOL, Art.... past history? look up at the top of this thread... see the name? no, i'm not counting down the days..just keeping track of the weather...
like i said, we have "offended" every other world power since 9-11... iknow, i know, it's business as usual....but i think we are pushing our luck.... love that coalition of the shrinking er, i mean willing....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
The number of nations we offend is a good measure of the extent to which our national interests are being furthered.
If we get cheaper oil as a result of the Iraqi war, this will offend many countries who are competing with us to get oil cheaper than what we pay.
Liberals would hurt our nation by appeasing or serving the interests of other nations, so as to be popular in the world, at the expense of hurting our own nation.
Consevatives do the opposite - serving our own national interests first and serving the interests of other nations only when this will serve our own interests.
Only a nation headed down the road of failure will do otherwise.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by glassman: didn't India bail on a big LNG powered electric plant recently? wasn't the pipeline to feed that supposed to cross Afghanistan?
oh no, i forgot, that was some stupid conspiracy theory cooked up by some "liberal kook"
So?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
so? IMO, the NATION's needs are not being served effectively Art... and i don't think it's a libcon problem, i think it's a personal greed problem... villifying one side or another continuously just paralyses US further...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by glassman: so? IMO, the NATION's needs are not being served effectively Art... and i don't think it's a libcon problem, i think it's a personal greed problem... villifying one side or another continuously just paralyses US further...
How are the nation's needs not being served? What has this to do with India?
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
Art:The number of nations we offend is a good measure of the extent to which our national interests are being furthered.
If we get cheaper oil as a result of the Iraqi war, this will offend many countries who are competing with us to get oil cheaper than what we pay.
Glassamn: why do you think WE consumers will get cheaper oil...the NET effect is that we MIGHT have a US representative at the OPEC table....that remains to be seen tho...
the fact is we had cheap oil for what? 10-15 yrs...and the first gulf war is a major part of the reason...
and ART, i don't think offending our allies has helped US at all....we will pay for this in the long.... like i said before, the coalition of the willing was weak to begin with, it's becoming a joke....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
IF we have sweetheart deals with the new Iraq, just as France, Germany, Russia, and China had with Saddam, we will continue to get cheap oil vis-a-vis other countries.
Iran will give preference to France, Germany, Russia, and China. Might have to invade Iran (LOL). All countries are always at war with one another to get the best economic deals from one another.
Geopolitics, which includes the threat of military force against nations unfriendly to us, as well as assistance from us to friendly nations in military defense, is basic to economic deals with others.
That is why we must spend money on our military - it all boils down to the world market and increasing our standard of living for all our citizens.
India is not in strong favor with us in recent years. Perhaps the sell of F-16s to Pakistan was to prompt India to cooperate with us more. Perhaps that will prove to be a mistake on the part of the US as you suggest.
India and China are the next big boys on the block in 10 years or more.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
i'm not sure that selling the F-16's is a mistake.. BUT, i am adding it to the list of things to consider...
international politics is not that different from family politics... one kid gets a new toy? the rest want one too... we KEEP IRAQ and who's to say India or China won't decide we set a precedent? it comes down to a question of escalation don't it?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
superior? LOL when is enough enough? how many nukes hits are OK Art? sure, we can handle one or two and wipe them out completely... sick..... nuclear power is only an ace in the hole, and once used? TOAST....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Art: India and China won't escalate aggression since we are allied with Pakistan and Taiwan, and thus would come to their defense if attacked.
It is a question of opposing power.
Our nuclear capability is our ace in the hole, and is far superior to either India's or China's.
Turbokid: they wouldnt have to escalate agression very hard because the US is overstretched in every sense of the word, a minor escalation between a country such as china could mean our doom very easily. where would we get the money to fight such a country? Also, why do we continue to give other countries our high tech weapons and jets, that just makes us equal, i thought we were supposed to maintain superiority in the world.
[ March 29, 2005, 22:34: Message edited by: Art ]
-------------------- "Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over." Herbert Hoover 1930
IP: Logged |
posted
Glassman: superior? LOL when is enough enough?
Art: Never. We are now developing an anti-missile system and are starting to deploy an anti-mortar system. We are developing laser and sound weapons. The drive for military superiority never goes on, even though you would want us to stop and be eclipsed militarily by other countries.
Glassman:...how many nukes hits are OK Art?
Art: Who ever said it was about number of nukes? It is about delivery systems, downscaling for limited area destruction, and other tech advances, which never stops, per the above.
Glassman:.. sure, we can handle one or two and wipe them out completely...sick.....
Art: What's sick is your attitude tha twe should be vulnerable to attack from other countries.
Glassman: nuclear power is only an ace in the hole, and once used? TOAST....
Art: So, we should unilaterally disarm? That is sick.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
posted
TK: they wouldnt have to escalate agression very hard because the US is overstretched in every sense of the word, a minor escalation between a country such as china could mean our doom very easily. where would we get the money to fight such a country?
Art: We are thin on boots on the ground. But that would not be our deterence against China or India. Our nuclear weapons would be. Wouldn't cost us anything to send some missiles over. Taiwan has defenses against China, and Pakistan against India, so adding our missiles to these defenses is the deterence, which is why China and India dio not attack now or in the future. Take away the nuclear deterence and both China and India attack now while our boots are elswhere.
TK: Also, why do we continue to give other countries our high tech weapons and jets, that just makes us equal, i thought we were supposed to maintain superiority in the world.
Art: We sell these to allies only. We have jets superior to the F-16s that we do not sell to anyone. We do maintain our superiority in the world and help our allies maintain parity, at the least, with their potential enemies. We strive for our superiority and a balance of power outside our shores.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Art: Glassman: superior? LOL when is enough enough?
Art: Never. We are now developing an anti-missile system and are starting to deploy an anti-mortar system. We are developing laser and sound weapons. The drive for military superiority never goes on, even though you would want us to stop and be eclipsed militarily by other countries.
Glassman:...how many nukes hits are OK Art?
Art: Who ever said it was about number of nukes? It is about delivery systems, downscaling for limited area destruction, and other tech advances, which never stops, per the above.
Glassman:.. sure, we can handle one or two and wipe them out completely...sick.....
Art: What's sick is your attitude tha twe should be vulnerable to attack from other countries.
Glassman: nuclear power is only an ace in the hole, and once used? TOAST....
Art: So, we should unilaterally disarm? That is sick.
Art, once again i have to question why you are arguing with me on these points... you are obviously interpreting my statements
INCORRECTLY...
you have twisted so many of my statements here that i'm not even going to bother to try to correct you...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
