quote:Originally posted by Cloud: If god existed before everything else in the universe, who created God. And if God created time and space, when and where is God. Did we humans create God?
Humans create everything, conceptually. We all create and have a concept of the essential process of nature - the basis from which all things flow.
The question is whether this concept matches reality, and to what extent does it match.
You are compelled to believe that something can not come from nothing, so the question of who created God is not valid - God is the first cause - the first something from which everything else came. Nothing created God since nothing can't produce something (LOL).
Is God an all-knowing and all-powerful moral figure who stands by to see who will exercise free will and chose correctly, to punish us when we are bad and reward us when we are good?
Such a belief gives us needed security that we are being watched over, that there is purpose to our struggles. As children we had such a God figure in the form of one or both parents, and this gave us security. As adults we yearn for that security, and, as Freud wrote, we project that childhood situation into our adult lives and create a religion with a parental God to watch over us.
[ February 12, 2005, 15:08: Message edited by: Art ]
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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I really hope that when we die we really do get an answer to the 'big why'. Why do we exist? Where did we come from? And what is the nature, beginning and purpose of existance?
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quote:Originally posted by kevin954: I really hope that when we die we really do get an answer to the 'big why'. Why do we exist? Where did we come from? And what is the nature, beginning and purpose of existence?
We exist as a part of the All. The All exists because it always has and always will.
Existence is multi-dimensional - you seem to use the term as "material existence". Sure, the All encompasses the material, but there is much more - and this "more" is the basic ontology underlying the material.
The material is an actualized thought (quantum computation) of God (interference product of the past and multiverse future at a hologramic wave level of reality).
Our material is an actualized construct of our personality processing. We contruct the world of our experience from hologramic wave material. It is an illusion - things appear solid when they are only energy waves/fields.
Our separated personality is simultaneously entangled with the All - we are separate humans while being God (in being unified with the All). Looking for the son or daughter of God? Look into the mirror. Even Hitler was a son of God. Hitlers are as necessary as Mother Theresas.
Our purpose is not to become moral - our purpose is to learn causality and reality (become wise), and therby to become more closely unified with the All (which is amoral).
We become moral in becoming wise, but we do not become wise in being moral.
Note to Kate: None of this is true.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Art, why post it, if it isn't true! My brain isn't awake enough yet this morning, to have to read through all of that, and not have to counter it! You are trying to confuse me! I do have to say though, that I don't believe we are God! HE is separate! He also can be within us, if we accept His presence, by acknowledging first, that He exists, and accepting the reason that Jesus came to live and die! It is called forgiveness! When we do that, we can have a personal relationship with Him! Forgiveness is always the key! In the Bible, it is very clear, that we are to forgive others, seventy times seven, or endlessly, because if we don't, scripture says that the Lord won't forgive us of our daily mistakes, and hear our prayers! It is a daily thing! We don't ever loose salvation, because it is a free gift, but He says He won't honor our prayers, if we don't forgive! We are to live one day at a time! So if some of you wonder why the Lord seems to dump on you personally, and not hear your prayers, re-think your personal relationship with Him, and others! God is the Creator, we are the created! He gave us life! He gave animals life! He gave plants life! In eternity, we will see the perfection of ALL life! Kevin, we do have a reason for our existence! It is a prelude for life in eternity! What we do with it, is up to us. Our instruction manual, is the Bible!
-------------------- As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
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Art: Tongue-in-cheek remark to you - I was joking with you. It would not be true for you, from your belief perspective, but is true for me, from my belief perspective.
Kate: I don't believe we are God! HE is separate! He also can be within us, if we accept His presence, by acknowledging first, that He exists, and accepting the reason that Jesus came to live and die! It is called forgiveness!
Art: We are simultaneously separate, and yet a part of everything (All-That-Is). God is simultaneously separate and yet All-That-Is. We are God in being a part of All-That-Is or God.
Kate: Forgiveness is always the key! In the Bible, it is very clear, that we are to forgive others, seventy times seven, or endlessly, because if we don't, scripture says that the Lord won't forgive us of our daily mistakes, and hear our prayers!
Art: God could care less whether we forgive others or not, kill others or be killed by them - God is an amoral process underlying the unfolding of the universe. You can think of God as causality if this helps.
Forgiveness is good when it is genuine and not forced as something we should do. True, unforced forgiveness comes with understanding of causality (or God or All-That-Is). When we reach such understanding we participate closely with the universal causality flow (God), and our anger over injustice melts (actually is counterconditioned at an unconscious level of personality processing). This is beneficial to us since anger is destructive to our personality and body. God doesn't care one way or the other.
Your God is a creation of yours born from your need for a guiding and loving parent - a longing for childhood security. I don't need your God since I understand causality, and understand the illusionary nature of materiality, pain, suffering, evil, etc., as well as good, pleasure, etc. I have always played a role in the universal causality process and always will, as have all things. down to the smallest sub-atomic particle.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: but Art, you seem to be asserting that we can't be better than we are now...
Not at all. What we want to be in the future is a part of what we are now also. It's just that to get to a new state we sometimes have to play out our present state to realize our errors and to see what we would like to be is worth becoming.
Of courses, if we had free will it would be no struggle and each day we could freely choose what we want to be that day without any difficulty (yeah, I know, you do that now).
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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Art, I had two very loving caring parents, growing up! Granted, we don't see eye to eye all of the time now, but back then, I didn't have a problem with them! I wasn't looking for that kind of relationship; I already had it! The God that I believe in, sent His own son to die,because He loved us so much, and to forgive us for our sinful nature! He is ALL about forgiveness! Think about it! If your neighbor hurt you, and you forgave him, and left it go, you wouldn't spend all of your time, trying to think up ways of nagatively trying to get him back, or do him in! Your focus could be on things that make you happy, and help you to grow! The relationship I have with God, is out of reverance for His authority over the entire creation, and His being my best friend, because unlike people, HE can accept and love me, no matter how many mistakes I make, or how many times I let Him down! Think about how the world would be, if people could forgive each other this way? I long for that day! :)It isn't a dream, but according to the Word, it will be a reality for those who believe!
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Kate: Think about how the world would be, if people could forgive each other this way? I long for that day! :)It isn't a dream, but according to the Word, it will be a reality for those who believe!
Art: To produce such a reality by only the process of believing would be a miracle of mind over matter.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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glass-manners, i definitely do not want to discuss Gannon. But i'll give you my brilliant take on the catholic sexcrimes debacle...
Pedophiles in the priesthood - makes perfect sense. glaring design flaw.. accident waiting to happen. The framers of the priesthood denied sexuality as basic human need, thereby inadvertently .... creating an attractive job description for someone with no hopes of a normal adult relationship in life. A guy who's going to be alone anyway. A guy who can look forward to more than a few raised eyebrows..as he grows old alone.....or (thinking back 40 or 50 years,) the more horrifying prospect of marrying a woman who no doubt repulses him. just you know, to keep up appearances.
If he achieves the priesthood, he gets to not only avoid the ubiquitous icky stigma, ("what's up with that guy?") but to actually be respected for living alone. Very attractive option for such a guy, if you think about it.
And even without your imagine-the-worst style visions of him nefariously, greedily contemplating acolytes... (not you, Gman, i mean the "you" out there. the general "you people!")
Pedophile= lover of children. doesn't mean rapist (necessarily). Imagine the poor shmuck who is cursed to this fate and actually controls himself.. He hasn't touched a single kid. He is simply tortured. What he wants sexually, he cannot have, and what society wants him to have, he does not want.
The point is, self controlling or not, the guy's not getting a normal relationship, Period. So he might find the priesthood attractive. Maybe even, in part because he hopes being steeped in so much daily religiosity might "cure" him.. Maybe half these guys actually did have such high hopes/prayers, & perhaps they neglected to even consider that a) they'd be surrounded by so many delicious acolytes! and/or, more pitifully, b) they would in fact NOT be "cured."
damn.
The bottom line is, these Vatican Bozos created a job description that would literally be a Magnet for sexual misfits.
oops!
And still nobody is stepping forward to cop to the booboo... "uhh, yeah, so we, uh..(clearing throat).. we see what we did wrong here.."
Nobody! Weaklings.
i like to imagine, during the original framing of the priesthood, whenever the hellfire that was... i like to imagine one lone dissenter. some rebel visionary in the back row: "Don't do it!" he yaps... muttering to himself, chewing on a stick, all hairy, smelly, eyes darting around, waggling his head weirdly.... "..biiig mistake demanding celibacy," he barks, hissing, flailing, growling, spitting.. ".. baaaad idea..." he has a twitch.. the wind whistles thru his teeth when he speaks.. filthy fingernails...socks don't match..
Obviously i am in love with him. But i digress.
~~~~~~~~~ ok! ok!~ moral: whatever outcomes you get in any undertaking, you will find that the seeds were there at the thing's inception. so pay attention. Pay Attention!
thank you, and goodnight! !ucy (did i say sexual misfits? i meant "misterfits." sorry.)
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i want to discuss Gannon...LOL how did he get a White House Press pass with an alias? somebody dropped the ball? or was it something else?
seems he was also involved in the Valerie Plame afair too. maybe only periferally, but he made statements that sounded like he had seen CIA internal memos that were definitely classified...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.
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Glassman, did you know that bacteria can communicate from room to room in a hospital, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
reminds me of what i heard - last year, about trees communicating thru the root systems. if some infestation happens on one end of the forest, the trees on the other side will "find out about it" in time to build up the resistance necessary. How Cool Is That.. now who wants to go to tibet with me to tell the buddhists it's time to redefine "sentient beings."
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LL: ...reminds me of what i heard - last year, about trees communicating thru the root systems. if some infestation happens on one end of the forest, the trees on the other side will "find out about it" in time to build up the resistance necessary.
Art: Yes, both bacteria and plants communicate to increase their disease resistance when some members of their community are biochemically invaded or attacked. This is certainly copperative behavior, and in humans, such copperative behavior is described as an example of love (to some degree of loving action). Same behavioral manifestation goal, but different processes of achievement in different species.
Morality is based in love, and love is based in genetic-based communications.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness.
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My Aunt was cured from a fatal blood disorder, on the lines of leukemia, when she was three! She was dying in the hospital, covered in bruises, and bleeding from every body opening, and my grandmother, (against doctors wishes left her go, because he figured it was her last weekend alive and could be with her family,) took her to a healing service, they prayed for Bonnie, and she was instantly healed! Bruises left her body, before their eyes! My grandmother took her back to the hospital, and the doctor documented it as an unexplained healing! Never saw anything like it before! She is now 47 years old! That is ONE miracle in my life!
-------------------- As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
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Oh, by the way! I've had a very difficult year! Parents and some family, angry with me, and not speaking to me, very long story, and I have been struggling, trying to do what is right! We are now speaking again, but it is very strained! I was sitting here, praying one morning, asking the Lord why my family can't accept me just the way that I am, like Jesus can, and love me for who I am, and that I needed some time away, and I was feeling really down, because my son was leaving for college that day! A couple of hours later, the phone rings, and it is the same Aunt Bonnie, from the above miracle, calling me on the phone, and she said to me, Hi Hon! It's your Auntie Bonnie, and I just called, to ask you, now think about it before saying no, if you would like to go, on an all-expense paid, Carribean cruise with me this spring, because I love you! You won't have to worry about clothes, I am buying some for you, and don't worry about money! Let me know if you want to go! I asked my husband, and he said go for it, sooooooooo, we will be leaving in less than two weeks!
How's that for an answered prayer!
-------------------- As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
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My brain isn't awake enough yet this morning, to have to read through all of that, and not have to counter it! You are trying to confuse me! 
