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Author Topic: Ok Glassman, who won?
Upside
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In your opinion, who won on both style and substance?
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betting babe
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kerry!!!

red tie, no smirk, clear points and no Iraqi obsession, but a global view.

oh, but bush did seem surprised that the presidency was "hard work". duh!

oh sorry that question was for glassman ;-)
~BB


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Upside
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I'll give Kerry a firm nod on style. Conviction goes to Bush, actual substance is close but I'll give it to Kerry for proposing some new thoughts and goals but with no explanation as to how to achieve them. Kerry 1, Bush 0.
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betting babe
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sure, he's truly convicted to follwing through on his plan that went awry due to it's lack of an exit strategy.

convicted to overriding the intelligence his military advisors (powell).

convicted to making sure no one realizes he's wrong...

nice delivery tho, if you didn't listen to the words and the ummms, i believes, i hopes, and "like ums"
~BB


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keithsan
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tie.

both got stuck

both smirked or shook head.

both will have fodder for commercials in the am


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kbpkt
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I give it a draw. They both seemed to get stuck every once in a while. Kerry gave a few false "facts" (i.e. that the Bush administration imposed sanctions against Iran, when in fact that happened back in the Carter era), while Bush seemed to carry his demeanor less proper than Kerry. I am surprised how civil the debate was. Gore and Bush were much more hostile. I guess the polls will show tomorrow what the public at large thinks.
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tigertony
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kerry looked better and sounded better,but bush responded and gave differrent informative answer's,kerry was stuck in one mode.Enjoyed it,but kerry does'nt have a chance.IMHO
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Upside
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Maybe they should have one more debate after these three, an arm wrestling match, winner takes the oval office.
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suzainiee
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I think the President may have been ill tonight.

One commentator made a similar remark.

The next debate's outcome wil probably be very different from this one.


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Upside
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Based on looks, I'd give the nod to Kerry. Bush looked a little nervous at the start and seemed to have a dry mouth. Unfortunately, those are the things they are judged on and can sway votes.
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Dardadog
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It's a good thing neither were allowed to leave the podium tonight. I think George pissed his pants. The wealthier had better stop thinking about thier wallet and tax breaks and open thier minds to the understanding that todays issues ARE global issues. The money you save in tax dollars today will not be a sufficient amount to protect your children and grandchildren in the future. If you think George cares about them you are chittin' only yourselves.


Dar

[This message has been edited by Dardadog (edited October 01, 2004).]


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timberman
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Is there anywhere that I could find a list of the questions used in last nights debate?
Anyone? Thanks in advance.

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keithsan
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honestly, if your in a camp thinking bush or kerry won then your probably partisan.

depending on who you line up with, going into the debate repubs said kerry needed to kick butt to catch up..... that didnt happen.

the dems were of the position that bush is winning on terrorism (voting polls) and that bush needs to score a knock out because this is his area......that didnt happen.

is there really a pottery barn rule that says if you break it you fix it?

how many times did bush say mixed messages and hard work?

kerry did say at one point he'd have troops out in 6 months. (so i thought, i knew position had changed) i doubt jim woulda screwed up the question. Someone will put a quote in the paper.

i could nit pick both sides all day. thought kerry had more style bush more substance. i was waiting for kerry to answer what he would do different and he went back to allies (that one just bothers me cuz of france et al. saying no matter whose pres. they not getting involved) but thats more about my politics.


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glassman
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i'm just glad people are talking about it...

Kerry won on the fact that he FINALLY broke thru the spin and made his OWN point...

Bush won on staying to his point...

I don't think Bush was ill last night. watch for MORE REAL BAD NEWS.....
i smell something brewing, i don't know what it is, but there is some serious tentativeness/desparation in the republican camp...highly irregular.
i'm seeing it on the faces of Bush spokesPEOPLE too...

it could be that the polls showing Bush with a big lead are dwindling or even wrong.
it could be international support for Kerry.
it could be a terror threat
it could be a lot of things

but i see it in quite a few faces.....
I HOPE I AM WRONG!


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Dardadog
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I particularly liked Kerry's point that Bush is building a nuclear bunker busting toy while telling the world they cannot have any.........I sure wish North Korea had oil fields.

------------------
Whoever is first in the field and awaits
the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is
second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive
exhausted.
- Sun Tzu

Dog


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glassman
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excellent point Dog. i am actually hearing "conservative" pundits claim that Kerry is wrong to critisize this. Their argument is that NOBODY has the right to tell America it can't have whatever weapons it wants.....

i find it interesting that anybody thinks developing more tactical nukes is a good thing. using tactical nukes will start a nuclear war. if we use JUST one then somebody else will too....

nukes are the LAST resort. just like we were told invading Iraq would be the last resort.HMMmmmmmmmmmm

the good news is that even the Republicans in congress have blocked Bush from acquiring his funds for this project....

we won the cold war, with MONEY and diplomacy


the war on terror requires Special Forces with a VISA to go wherever the terrorists are....not nukes....
if somebody is in a bunker, we can burn them out.....


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glassman
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more on NUKES. the so-called nuke black marketeers that Bush claims to have shut down are still walking around FREE. it was the head of the Paki nuke program that sold plans to the axis of evil people...

he admitted his crime and was then immediately pardonned by HIS government
this is the same country that Osama is most likely hiding in since we let him escape from Torra Borra.....


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keithsan
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nukes are bad.

i've been ignoring the pundits for now, they always try to spin into their favorite guy did better crap....

[This message has been edited by keithsan (edited October 01, 2004).]


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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by timberman:
Is there anywhere that I could find a list of the questions used in last nights debate?
Anyone? Thanks in advance.

i don't know if you found this this yet or not....

http://www.debates.org/pages/debtrans.html

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 01, 2004).]


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glassman
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Bush
Libya has disarmed. The A.Q. Khan network has been brought to justice.

this is what the president claimed in his first rebuttall

Libya's disarmament as far as i have heard amounts to turning in the nuke plans they got from this A Q Kahn group

A Q Kahn group is who the Paki govt DID NOT bring to justice, they PARDONNED them...

just in the first rebuttal, i think it may take weeks to find all the "spin" in here...
yes, i'm sure Kerry spun some tooo....


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glassman
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Do you believe the election of Senator Kerry on November the 2nd would increase the chances of the U.S. being hit by another 9/11-type terrorist attack?


BUSH: No, I don't believe it's going to happen. I believe I'm going to win, because the American people know I know how to lead. I've shown the American people I know how to lead.

LOL.....................................

i think this shows how good Bush is at strategising, he refuses to consider any other possibilities than HIS OWN DESIRES

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 01, 2004).]


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glassman
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as far as nukes go, i would like to say that they both missed one answer...they both said that nuclear proliferation is the biggest threat facing america,


i think the biggest threat facing US is the porosity of our borders.....


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glassman
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this kind of makes me wonder if Bush is in the same reality as me....

Bush:
Saddam Hussein had no intention of disarming. Why should he? He had 16 other resolutions and nothing took place. As a matter of fact, my opponent talks about inspectors. The facts are that he was systematically deceiving the inspectors.

That wasn't going to work. That's kind of a pre-September 10th mentality, the hope that somehow resolutions and failed inspections would make this world a more peaceful place. He was hoping we'd turn away. But there was fortunately others beside himself who believed that we ought to take action.

cuz in my reality Saddam WAS disarmed before we went in......


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keithsan
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LOL glass, even the inspectors werent sure. thats why the sanction..... UN (not american).

you want to skip picking on kerry comments....

N.K was thought to have nukes during clinton era.

complained about body armor etc....
voted against the troops getting that money.

was asked what SPECIFICALLY you would do different in Iraq? only answer i could find was ask internationals to help.

threats to america, global test?????? what was that (i wont complain cuz it might be good, i just dont know what the hell he's talking about).

His policy on iraq is to stay fight and win, well good thats both candidates.

IMO kerry looked way better. but, i knew that from mass elections and seeing bush speak.

I thought bush had more substance.

bush is not what i would call articulate under pressure. if he said hard work again ahhhhhh.....

I still dont know what kerrys plan is, i am not very happy with current iraq but today it seemed tougher.....looks like some needed force finally being implemented.

bush had


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glassman
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i'm looking at Kerry's responses too...

i haven't gotten to the litmus test part yet.....

my concerns here are more about propaganda than they are about who to vote for....

i have serious concerns about whether Bush has any intention of ever leaving Iraq keith.
that's why they look so nervous (i think) they are beginnig to realise we the people are not so greedy that we think it's OK to take over a third world country with naked aggression just for oil......


KERRY: The president just talked about Iraq as a center of the war on terror. Iraq was not even close to the center of the war on terror before the president invaded it.

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 01, 2004).]


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keithsan
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well, when we rip the oil from the un's hands, i'll worry.
(we should have a war for water soon- big money)

....i know you hate this, but, when i listened to kerry's speach..... its different than what i heard before... hell different from the interview on weds morning......

with bush its same ole same ole. so i know where he stands.


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glassman
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keith i believe you have heard different things.....
but i haven't, i've been saying for quite awhile that MY PARTY is misrepresnting Kerry .......


Imus came out today as a pro-Bush guy by slamming Jim Lehrer....


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glassman
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here is waht you have been hearing.....

BUSH: Thank you, sir. First of all, what my opponent wants you to forget is that he voted to authorize the use of force and now says it's the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place.


what i HEAR in this is that Kerry gave Bush the authority to do what Bush thought was correct......(i think Kerry disagrees just little bit with what Bush did with that authority...)


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glassman
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BUSH:My administration worked with the Congress to create the Department of Homeland Security so we could better coordinate our borders and ports. We've got 1,000 extra border patrol on the southern border; want 1,000 on the northern border. We're modernizing our borders.

i want to see it become a more serious crime to HIRE illegal aliens. then we can actually begin to determine who is sneaking across our borders. by reducing the number of "legitimate" illeagals we can then start to identify terrorsits that may or may not be slipping in amongst them....

this is on that NEITHER candidate wants to address.....


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glassman
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KERRY:Now I believe there's a better way to do this. You know, the president's father did not go into Iraq, into Baghdad, beyond Basra. And the reason he didn't is, he said -- he wrote in his book -- because there was no viable exit strategy. And he said our troops would be occupiers in a bitterly hostile land.

i believe this is the smoking gun so to speak....the intel community didn't have to tell Bush that the Iraq invasion would de-stabilize the mid-east his own Dad did.....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 01, 2004).]


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keithsan
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glass,

i am for the iraq war. and not worried if kerry is or isn't. I wont get into the rhetoric of it, and i sometimes catch imus. but i also catch al franken sometimes....

From kerry's lips on tim russert to the diane sawyer interview he was not together on his iraq feelings or thoughts. they came out straight at the debate, but, basically its a speach. his problem is his speaches have often been different.

as i've said many times before, i'm from mass. and have been sick of what I consider way to leftist views on most things.

(i must admit he's not representing himself the same way to the country as i've seen him represent himself in the past).

I hate living in a state where i dont get to see these attack commercials.


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glassman
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if Bush makes you feel comfortable because he says the same thing over and over that's fine with me..

but that actually scares me, cause it sounds TO ME like he has memorized a script.....
and i wonder why......


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keithsan
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John Kerry Made At Least 16 Inaccurate Statements During Last Night's Debate

Kerry Inaccurately Claimed Cuts In Homeland Security Funding Caused NYC Subway To Be Closed During The RNC Convention. "In an early exchange about homeland security, Kerry got it wrong when he claimed President Bush's cuts in funding for infrastructure protection was 'why they had to close down the subway in New York when the Republican Convention was there.' The only problem is that no subway service beneath Madison Square Garden was suspended during the convention, even as buses were diverted and gridlock ruled the streets." ("Subway Flub Derails Challenger," The New York Post, 10/1/04)
Kerry Falsely Claimed He Had “Made A Mistake In How” He Talked About His Vote Against The $87 Billion, Despite Previously Saying It Would Be "Irresponsible" To Vote Against Funding For Our Troops. (CBS’ “Face The Nation,” 9/14/03)
Kerry Claimed He's "Never, Ever" Used Word "Lying" In Reference To President Bush On Iraq, But In December 2003 Kerry Told A New Hampshire Editorial Board Bush "Lied" About Reasons For Going To War In Iraq And In September 2003 Kerry Said Bush Administration "Lied" And "Misled." (Patrick Healy, "Kerry Camp Lowers N.H. Expectations Behind In Polls, Senator Now Seeks Spot In 'Top Two,'" The Boston Globe, 12/8/03; Sen. John Kerry, Campaign Event, Claremont, NH, 9/20/03)
According To FactCheck.Org, Kerry's "Cost" For The Iraq War Is Off By $80 Billion. ("Distortions And Misstatements At First Presidential Debate," FactCheck.org, 10/1/04, http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271, Accessed 10/1/04)
According To FactCheck.Org, Kerry "Overstated The Case" On Osama Bin Laden's Alleged Escape At Tora Bora. ("Distortions And Misstatements At First Presidential Debate," FactCheck.org, 10/1/04, http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271, Accessed 10/1/04)
Kerry Made Assumption The UN Was Willing To Continue Sanctions Against Iraq Despite The Fact They Were Becoming "Increasingly Unpopular With Key Nations." (Glenn Kessler And Walter Pincus, "Few Factual Errors, But Truth Got Stretched At Times," The Washington Post, 10/1/04)
Kerry Misspoke And Said Weapons Of Mass Destruction Were "Crossing The (Iraq) Border Every Single Day." "The AP noted that Kerry misspoke when he said 'we got weapons of mass destruction crossing the (Iraq) border every single day, and they're blowing people up.' Kerry meant terrorists were crossing the border, not nuclear weapons." ("Distortions And Misstatements At First Presidential Debate," FactCheck.org, 10/1/04, http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271, Accessed 10/1/04)
Kerry Claimed U.S. Soldiers Are "90 Percent Of The Casualties In Iraq," But The Wall Street Journal Puts U.S. Casualties Closer To 50% When You Include Iraqis Helping To Secure Their Own Country. (Editorial, "Our Kerry Iraq Guide," The Wall Street Journal, 9/30/04)
Kerry Falsely Claimed President Bush Diverted Forces From Afghanistan To Iraq; Gen. Tommy Franks Said It's "Absolutely Incorrect" That Resources Were Diverted From Afghanistan. (General Tommy Franks, ABC Radio's "The Sean Hannity Show," 9/21/04)
Kerry Falsely Claimed The Bush Administration Has Not Organized An International Summit To Discuss Iraq. "Reality Check: The administration has, in fact, organized just such a conference, in consultation with Iraqi and other Arab allies. It will be held in Cairo late in November, with the foreign ministers of the G8 countries (i.e. including antiwar countries such as France, Germany and Russia), China, the countries of the Arab League, Turkey and Iran invited to attend. If it goes ahead, it will mark the most significant attempt to forge a political consensus on Iraq since the war." (Tony Karon, "Reality Check: John Kerry," Time.com, http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,703913,00.html, 10/1/04)
Kerry Falsely Claimed The President Is "Cutting The COPS Program," When The Truth Is President Bush Has Already Met And Exceeded The COPS Program's 100,000 Officer Goal By 18 Percent. (http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Default.asp?Item=1056)
Kerry Claimed Gen. Shinseki Was Retired For Testimony On Iraq When In Fact Shinseki's Retirement Was Announced In April 2002, Long Before He Testified About Potential Conduct Of Iraq War. (Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough, "Inside The Ring," The Washington Times, 4/19/02)
Kerry Misleadingly Claimed He Can Bring More Allies Into Iraq. "Reality Check: It wasn't the President's credibility that kept most of the international community out of Iraq; it was, and is, the policies pursued by the U.S. in Iraq. But Kerry is broadly committed to the same policies. And if, as he says, other countries will participate because they have a stake in the outcome, the presumably they would do so no matter who was President of the United States." (Tony Karon, "Reality Check: John Kerry," Time.com, http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,703913,00.html, 10/1/04)
Kerry Claimed To Have His Own Four-Point Plan For Iraq, But It Mirrors The President's Plan. "Kerry's plan… is pretty much a checklist of recent initiatives adopted by the Bush Administration." (Tony Karon, "Reality Check: John Kerry," Time.com, http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,703913,00.html, 10/1/04)
Kerry Falsely Stated The Agreement With North Korea Broke Down Because The President Didn't Continue The Clinton Administration's Policy. "Reality Check: While the Yongbon facility was under scrutiny and the fuel rods were sealed, North Korea has since admitted to running a secret parallel uranium-enrichment program to create weapons-grade fissile material in the years following the agreement reached with the Clinton administration, in violation of that agreement." (Tony Karon, "Reality Check: John Kerry," Time.com, http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,703913,00.html, 10/1/04)
Kerry Falsely Claimed The "Reason For Going To War Was Weapons Of Mass Destruction, Not The Removal Of Saddam Hussein," But The 2002 Use Of Force Resolution Kerry Voted For Specifically Recognized Longstanding Regime Change Policy. (Public Law No. 107-243, Signed Into Law 10/16/02)


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glassman
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nice list...
but if you DD each issue you will find they are not exactly 100% inaccurracies, they are debatable OPINIONS as in this one....

Tora Bora "Outsourcing"


"Outsourcing" Osama's Capture

Kerry: I would not take my eye off of the goal: Osama bin Laden. Unfortunately, he escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. We had him surrounded. But we didn't use American forces, the best trained in the world, to go kill him. The president relied on Afghan warlords and he outsourced that job too. That's wrong.

Kerry said U.S. forces allowed Osama bin Laden to escape in 2001 during the battle at Tora Bora in Afghanistan because the administration "outsourced" fighting to Afghan "warlords." Actually, it's never been clear whether bin Laden actually was at Tora Bora.
It is true that military leaders strongly suspected bin Laden was there, and it is also true that the Pentagon relied heavily on Afghan forces to take on much of the fighting at Tora Bora in an effort to reduce US casualties. But Kerry overstates the case by stating flatly that "we had him surrounded

the only "inaccuracy" here is whether or not Osama was there or not. in POINT Kerry is correct because we didn't bother to find out if he was really there or not....


Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
glassman
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Kerry Claimed U.S. Soldiers Are "90 Percent Of The Casualties In Iraq," But The Wall Street Journal Puts U.S. Casualties Closer To 50% When You Include Iraqis Helping To Secure Their Own Country. (Editorial, "Our Kerry Iraq Guide," The Wall Street Journal, 9/30/04) hmmmmm does this really make sense????
Kerry is once again the victim of spin and misquoting...he was talking about FOREIGN ALLIES...LOL it never stops does it????

this one below is a mis-statement according to the pentagon there are 8000 trained troops. the rest are still in training and it's only an 8 week course LOL that's pretty lame....

BUSH: There are 100,000 troops trained, police, guard, special units, border patrol. There's going to be 125,000 trained by the end of this year. Yes, we're getting the job done. It's hard work. Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us.

sad part here is that if he hadn't added the ones in training it might be true....
maybe he just forgot his script....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 01, 2004).]


Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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