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Author Topic: Ok Glassman, who won?
keithsan
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i still dont know where you found the quote....,
thats the letter.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1096537051218231.xml

Facts and Figures
3,300 Iraqi schools renovated
20 million Iraqis citizens receive clean water
75 Iraqi medical facilities refurbished
76,000 New jobs created

Facts and Figures
Education
3300
Iraqi schools renovated, or soon to be completed, since the overthrow of Saddam

("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)



9 Million
New math and science textbooks printed and distributed with pro-Saddam propaganda extracted

("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)



85%
Primary and secondary schools that have re-opened since the overthrow of Saddam

("Free After 50 Years of Tyranny," The Observer, October 5, 2003)



159,000
Student desks distributed to Iraqi schools

("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)



81,735
Teaching kits distributed to Iraqi primary school teachers

("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)


Human Rights
71%
Proportion of Iraqis in a February 2004 survey that said they expected their lives to be even better in a year

("National Survey of Iraq," Oxford Research International, February 2004)



76,000
New jobs created by the Iraqi National Employment Program

("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)



600
New judges presently working in Iraqi Courts of Law

("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)



170
Newspapers currently published in Iraq

("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)



33%
Percentage of Iraqis that receive worldwide information via satellite

("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)



70
Mosques refurbished by coalition forces

("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)


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keithsan
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Government and Politics
67
Iraqi cities with fully functioning municipalities only four months after the beginning of the war

("The Real Iraq," The New York Post, July 17, 2003)



85%
Percentage of small Iraqi towns that had fully functioning municipalities only four months after the beginning of the war

("The Real Iraq," The New York Post, July 17, 2003)



81
Iraqi women serve on neighborhood and district councils around Baghdad

("U.S. Commitment to Women in Iraq," Office of International Women's Issues, May 24, 2004)



6
Iraqi women appointed as Cabinet-level ministers in the newly-formed Iraqi Interim Government

("The Interim Iraqi Government," Coalition Provisional Authority, June 1, 2004


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glassman
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i mis-quoted--it was from Keislings letter, not Jon Browns letter...
Keisling was in Greece and he quit too..
Brown said Kiesling's resignation provided the final push for him to leave State and to make his views known publicly

it is common policy in the State Dept. to present "shortened versions" of these letters. and should be....
that doesn't change the facts....

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/h030403.html

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


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glassman
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the only people that believe we are in Iraq for humanitarian reasons are Bush supporters....
more propaganda....

the INTERIM govt is OURS.....

one of the most important details left out of those facts is that the insurgents are actually controlling ares containing over 25% of the populace.... and we have lost ground,since that data was collected, not gained it...due to Bush policy not Kerry policy

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


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glassman
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this from the congressional record 11-24 2003.....
It turns out that the Bush Administration had ample reason to know at
the time that what the President was telling the nation could not be
substantiated. The CIA had sought to dissuade the White House from
making claims about uranium purchases. And on February 5, a week after
the State of the Union address, Secretary of State Powell made a
presentation to the Untied Nations in which he omitted the claim
precisely because it was not supported by the available intelligence.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/s1946.html

this war was manufactured......


maybe Tennet really resigned due to this, instead of providing bad intel...many others have had to resign because they disagree....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


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glassman
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seems tha Clinton did try to do some retribution.....didn't work too good tho...
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB134/index.htm


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glassman
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seems Bush knew he was going to get greif from the world and didn't care....
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_8_19/ai_100111645


April 1, 2003

Bush critics argue that it was impossible to sell world opinion on policies that many find to be fundamentally unsellable. Presidential backers counter that the culprit is the creaky national-security-policy process, which they say discourages innovation, rewards the static and is too slow for the information age. Public-diplomacy and political-warfare professionals maintain that senior officials are too focused on tactics to think strategically

tactical versus strategy = let's kick butt now and worry about the cost when we get the bill. the BILL is coming due...


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glassman
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this is interesting too...

Chalabi pleased with Tenet's resignation
Former U.S. ally accuses Tenet of failed policies

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/03/chalabi.iran/

Chalabi was our first choice for interim prime minister....
he supposedly gave out clasified intel to Iran?
we are making a bigger mess out of this war all the time....

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


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Kate
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Yes, there are a lot of people that die of infections, but you can't blame the doctor for a lot of them, because they are unable to kill them with antibiotics! There are many new strains of resistent infections, and no matter what they do, people die! Hmmm! Maybe biological terrorism? My friends husband died a couple of months ago! He got sick with flu symptoms; ended up in the hospital, and no matter what they did, he died! Within two weeks! He was 46 years old! They did an autopsy, and couldn't find the cause for the infection, or what kind it actually was! I'd still rather go to the doctor in this country!
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glassman
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Kate, my point isn't really about the doctors. You are correct about the anti-biotic resistance.

My real point is that we live on a PLANET, not just in the US. Before 9-11 president Bush spoke rather well of his intentions to be a Good Neighbor. I am reading his answers to debate questions in 2000, and posting some of them. the terrorists will win if we continue to show the amount of disrespect to the world that the president has been showing.

2000-2nd presidential debate...

BUSH: I would like to, of course, and I presume this administration would as well. We don't know -- there are no inspectors now in Iraq, the coalition that was in place isn't as strong as it used to be. He is a danger. We don't want him fishing in troubled waters in the Middle East. And it's going to be hard, it's going to be important to rebuild that coalition to keep the pressure on him.

he didn't re-build that coalition did he????
and where are the WMD????
somebody bore false witness.....

i have also noticed that Cheney used the same term about "fishing in troubled waters" my recollection escapes me....
is that a biblical phrase?


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keithsan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
i mis-quoted--it was from Keislings letter, not Jon Browns letter...
Keisling was in Greece and he quit too..
Brown said Kiesling's resignation provided the final push for him to leave State and to make his views known publicly

it is common policy in the State Dept. to present "shortened versions" of these letters. and should be....
that doesn't change the facts....

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_cr/h030403.html

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


i knew where the quote came from figured i'd harrass ya a little.


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keithsan
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1997: Kerry Warned Senate Of Saddam’s WMD Capabilities. "It is not possible to overstate the ominous implications for the Middle East if Saddam were to develop and successfully militarize and deploy potent biological weapons. We can all imagine the consequences. Extremely small quantities of several known biological weapons have the capability to exterminate the entire population of cities the size of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. These could be delivered by ballistic missile, but they also could be delivered by much more pedestrian means; aerosol applicators on commercial trucks easily could suffice. If Saddam were to develop and then deploy usable atomic weapons, the same holds true." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, p. S12256)

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keithsan
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1998: Kerry Said Saddam Had Chemical And Biological Weapons. KERRY: "[H]e can rebuild both chemical and biological. And every indication is, because of his deception and duplicity in the past, he will seek to do that. So we will not eliminate the problem for ourselves or for the rest of the world with a bombing attack." (ABC’s "This Week," 2/22/98)

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keithsan
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2001: Kerry Said Saddam Has Used WMDs And Is Trying To Secure Additional Weapons. SEN. JOHN KERRY: "[I]t is something that we know-for instance, Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people, and there is some evidence of their efforts to try to secure these kinds of weapons and even test them." (CBS’ "Face The Nation," 9/23/01)

2001: Kerry Says Saddam "Acted Like A Terrorist." KERRY: "He is and has acted like a terrorist, and he has engaged in activities that are unacceptable." (Fox News’ "The O’Reilly Factor," 12/11/01)

2001: Kerry Says Need To Increase Pressure On Saddam. KERRY: "[I] think we ought to put the heat on Saddam Hussein. I’ve said that for a number of years, Bill. I criticized the Clinton administration for backing off of the inspections, when Ambassador Butler was giving us strong evidence that we needed to continue. I think we need to put the pressure on, no matter what the evidence is about September 11 ..." (Fox News’ "The O’Reilly Factor," 12/11/01)

2001: Kerry Says Iraq Part Of Global War On Terror. KERRY: "I think we clearly have to keep the pressure on terrorism globally. This doesn’t end with Afghanistan by any imagination. And I think the president has made that clear. I think we have made that clear. Terrorism is a global menace. It’s a scourge. And it is absolutely vital that we continue, for instance, Saddam Hussein." (CNN’s "Larry King Live," 12/14/01)

2002: Kerry Agrees With Goal Of Regime Change In Iraq. "I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq ..." (Sen. John Kerry, Speech To The 2002 DLC National Conversation, New York, NY, 7/29/02)

2002: Kerry Calls Saddam A "Renegade And Outlaw." "... Saddam Hussein is a renegade and outlaw who turned his back on the tough conditions of his surrender put in place by the United Nations in 1991." (Sen. John Kerry, Speech To The 2002 DLC National Conversation, New York, NY, 7/29/02)

2002: Kerry Wrote Saddam Inviting Enforcement If He Does Not Comply With International Community. "If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement ..." (Sen. John Kerry, Op-Ed, "We Still Have A Choice On Iraq," The New York Times, 9/6/02)

2002: Kerry Said Iraq’s WMDs May Be Given Or Sold To Terrorist Groups. "I would disagree with John McCain that it’s the actual weapons of mass destruction he may use against us, it’s what he may do in another invasion of Kuwait or in a miscalculation about the Kurds or a miscalculation about Iran or particularly Israel. Those are the things that - that I think present the greatest danger. He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat." (CBS’ "Face The Nation," 9/15/02)

2002: Kerry Said President Has Right To Act Unilaterally. "But the president, as I also wrote in that article, always reserves the right to act unilaterally protect [sic] the interests of our country." (MSNBC’s "Hardball," 9/17/02)

2002: Kerry Said US Has Right To Protect Our Security. "If the UN fails to cooperate, ‘we always reserve the right to do what we need to do to protect our security,’ Kerry said." (Susan Milligan, "Confronting Iraq," The Boston Globe, 10/4/02)

2002: Kerry Voted For Iraq War Resolution. (H.J. Res. 114, CQ Vote #237: Passed 77-23: R 48-1; D 29-21; I 0-1, 10/11/02, Kerry Voted Yea)

2003: Kerry Said Leaving Saddam Hussein "Unfettered With Nuclear Weapons Or Weapons Of Mass Destruction Is Unacceptable." (Jill Lawrence, "War Issue Challenges Democratic Candidates," USA Today, 2/12/03)

2003: Kerry Says Disarming Saddam Was "Right Decision." KERRY: "George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." (ABC News Democrat Presidential Candidates Debate, Columbia, SC, 5/3/03)

2003: Kerry Said "It Would Be Irresponsible" To Suggest President Misled On WMD. ABC’S GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: "I know you said you’re agnostic about whether or not he misled the public on weapons of mass destruction. But do you have a hunch on whether you think they hyped the intelligence?" SEN. JOHN KERRY: "George, again, I think it would be irresponsible of me at this point to draw conclusions prior to all the evidence being on the table." (ABC’s "This Week," 6/15/03)


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glassman
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good points keith, but you know as well as i do that means KERRY was being a GOOD Senator....
he was supporting the president in time of war.....that's his job...

2003: Kerry Said "It Would Be Irresponsible" To Suggest President Misled On WMD. ABC’S GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: "I know you said you’re agnostic about whether or not he misled the public on weapons of mass destruction. But do you have a hunch on whether you think they hyped the intelligence?" SEN. JOHN KERRY: "George, again, I think it would be irresponsible of me at this point to draw conclusions prior to all the evidence being on the table." (ABC’s "This Week," 6/15/03)


i totally agree that it would have been irresponsible at that time....

i have been struggling to be responsible and keep my mouth shut about my misgivings over the war for awhile too

it's not about being anti-war...

it's about recognising the fact that we don't own the world......

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 02, 2004).]


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glassman
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Bush decate 2000--



MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: What would you make -- what would make you the best candidate in office during the Middle East crisis?

BUSH: I've been a leader. I've been a person who has to set a clear vision and convince people to follow. I've got a strategy for the Middle East. And first let me say that our nation now needs to speak with one voice during this time, and I applaud the president for working hard to diffuse tensions. Our nation needs to be credible and strong. When we say we're somebody's friend, everybody has got to believe it. Israel is our friend and we'll stand by Israel. We need to reach out to modern Arab nations as well. To build coalitions to keep the peace. I also need -- the next leader needs to be patient. We can't put the Middle East peace process on our timetable. It's got to be on the timetable of the people that we're trying to bring to the peace table. We can't dictate the terms of peace, which means that you have to be steady. You can't worry about polls or focus groups. You've got to have a clear vision. That's what a leader does. A leader also understands that the United States must be strong to keep the peace. Saddam Hussein still is a threat in the Middle East. Our coalition against Saddam is unraveling. Sanctions are loosened. The man who may be developing weapons of mass destruction, we don't know because inspectors aren't in. So to answer your question, it requires a clear vision, a willingness to stand by our friends, and the credibility for people both friend and foe to understand when America says something, we mean it.

saying 9-11 changed the world isn't enough for some of us......
something else changed too.
Bush began to sound more like Cheney...


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glassman
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Fox's BIG Story just now showed Rumsfeld admitting he never thought that Iraq would be this bad, and he made fun of poeple who warned him it could be worse....

sheesh these guys are not even honest with themselves...


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keithsan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
[B]good points keith, but you know as well as i do that means KERRY was being a GOOD Senator....
he was supporting the president in time of war.....that's his job...
[b]
B]

LOL-glass thats bull, they both had the same info. You can vote no, really if you dont believe in something you can.

but,

if the polls say differently, maybe you should listen to them, and if they change...

so should you...I dont want the revamped and yearly revised constitution of france....

Its not a working document...


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SCinFL
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Nice debate guys...
I like your posts, Glass and Dardadog.
I only reiterate what I said a few months back. I believe that Bush needs to go if for no other reason than to re-establish ourselves internationally.
OK, I have put in my .02 worth....back to the debate

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Kate
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Sorry, I wouldn't vote a certain way, just to please the President, if I were in Congress, which you better be glad I'm not! If Saddam used Chemical and Biological weapons on his own people, where did they go? I don't want to find out the hard way! Also, this debate about the President and Kerry? You tell me which activity for the day, would of made you more alert, and rested? Golfing, like John Kerry was, or visiting hurricane torn Florida, and comforting people who have lost their homes? Seems to me like the President was a bit tired, with good reason!
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glassman
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it's fairly obvious that 37% of the country would vote for Bush NO MATTER WHAT he says or does......

that's too bad....

his petulance at beng interogated last Thursday night was alarming...

his willingness to twist Kerry's words, which a ARE IN PRINT, to his own meanings is not a healthy sign............


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glassman
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i am trying to find a link to the news i heard today about Bush demanding that Congress strip stronger illegal immigration wording on the new 9-11 bill...


the doesn't seem to think porous borders and illegal aliens represent a significant security risk......


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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Sorry, I wouldn't vote a certain way, just to please the President, if I were in Congress, which you better be glad I'm not! If Saddam used Chemical and Biological weapons on his own people, where did they go? I don't want to find out the hard way!


Kate, i have been trying to explain this to you for quite awhile now. I don't know how else to put it...


Saddam destroyed them a LONG time ago.
Shortly after he lost the Gulf War.


The UN and the US have been ABUSING IRAQ for quite awhile. I know you don't want to believe this, but we invaded Iraq because it is full of OIL......

Why haven't we removed Castro from Cuba since the USSR fell? NO OIL.......



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keithsan
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glass?

why did we go into kosovo, no oil?


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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by keithsan:
glass?

why did we go into kosovo, no oil?


wasn't there some war involving genocide over there????


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keithsan
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the europeans didnt think so.....

Why haven't we removed Castro from Cuba since the USSR fell? NO OIL

iraq had genocide.....


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Kate
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I guess you will have to keep on explaining Glass! You and I will probably never agree, and that's ok! Like I said before, we can agree to disagree! As for being a woman, that doesn't mean I don't pay attention, and know as much as any man! Maybe I haven't been in the service myself, but my brother served, and also a lot of my friends, and they don't see it the same way that you do either! There is such a thing as common sense too!
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glassman
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quote:

iraq had genocide.....[/B]

more propaganda....
that's why we aren't welocome there.....

the mass graves are from the Iraq/Iran war....
we supported Iraq and gave them mucho weapons...no LOL


Kate, you don't disagree with just me. you disagree with the Pentagon, the State Dept, the CIA, the 9-11 commision and the UN.

Saddam had no WMD......you have been LIED to....


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glassman
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just prior to the Iraq war.....


In December 2001, Kellogg, Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, secured a 10-year deal known as the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP), from the Pentagon. The contract is a "cost-plus-award-fee, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity service" which basically means that the federal government has an open-ended mandate and budget to send Brown and Root anywhere in the world to run military operations for a profit.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6008


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Kate
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Isn't America great? I'm sorry, but I have a friend who goes to my church, that works at the Pentagon, and she doesn't agree with John Kerry either! Otherwise, she would'nt of been handing out an Election Voter Guide, that she printed out, showing the pros and cons for both candidates! What do you consider a weapon of Mass destruction? Just because they didn't find nucleur, doesn't mean the chemical and biological weapons don't or didn't kill large masses of people! Saddam HAD those! You don't call gassing the curds genocide? Where will the next Anthrax come from when it shows up in our country again? How many will it kill next? I'd rather not find out, myself! You see why I don't get into these conversations?
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glassman
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yes, Kate i see...

Anthrax we DID have.

did Pres. Bush find them????? NO....that was another TERRORIST ATTACK that he has ignored.....still feel safer?

if you are close to the Pentagon then you also remember how effective he was with the SNIPERS too...

but the real issue is that SADDAM had NO, i reapeat, NO WMD of ANY KIND.....

no partly , no maybe...NONE.... i'm sorry to be so mean Kate, but there is a LOT of eveidence that the CIA is falling apart over this....and it's not because they were wrong, it's because they got BURNED by the politics......


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glassman
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Let's see...

we don't have Osama,

we don't even know who did the Anthrax letters..

we got the DC snipers(a trucker caught them)

we have Saddam, but here'e the REAL proof that he didn't do ANYTHING to US KATE.......


this is ABSOLUTE and you will have to agree that he didn't do ANYTHING at all to US after i tell you this........


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glassman
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if Saddam Hussein was guilty of anything worth going to war over........


WE WOULD BE TRYING HIM HERE IN THE USA....


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glassman
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just like the First President Bush did with Panama........

remember Manuel Noriega?

fact is, there is no evidence to charge Saddam Hussein with......(in the USA)

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 04, 2004).]


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keithsan
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
more propaganda....
that's why we aren't welocome there.....

the mass graves are from the Iraq/Iran war....
we supported Iraq and gave them mucho weapons...no LOL


Kate, you don't disagree with just me. you disagree with the Pentagon, the State Dept, the CIA, the 9-11 commision and the UN.

Saddam had no WMD......you have been LIED to....


What about the kurds?


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