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Machiavelli
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Couldn't find the story on the NYPost.com website but I bought the paper today at my local deli. The title of article is called A Kiss of Death for Daughter-Slain by "shamed" Kurd kin by Steve Bird,if you can find it and post it here for me.

Basically I'll give a short version of the story. A Kurd girl who lives with her family in London was photographed by another Kurd kissing her boyfriend in public. Just a peck/smooch, that's all. Her Uncle and father had a family meeting and they decided to have her and her boyfriend murdered.

They got a gang of Kurd thugs to help them with the murders. They kidnapped her, took her clothes off and strangled her with a boot lace. Then stuffed her body in a suitcase and buried in a shallow grave. As for the boyfriend they attempted to kidnap him but he manage to escape and is in witness protection hiding. The uncle and father were convicted of murder. It doesn't say what the sentence was but I hope it wasn't 6 months like it was in the previous thread we chatted about. The kurd girl in Iraq.

Another senseless "honor" killing that will not stop till the Middle Eastern community (both kurds and muslims) put their foot down and say enough is enough. Were in the 21st century and those old traditions are just that, Old. We are in a civilized society (well as civilized as can be given the current state of affairs around the world) and were not savages no more. The girl was a human being and not some animal that you can sacrifice. If she shamed her family so much they should of just disowned her and threw her out of the family home.

Jail for these murderers is too good and simple. They will just get in with the kurd or islamic community in prison and do their time and it will not stop them from doing it again in the future if someone else in their family is perceived to have "shamed" them. They really should have their d*cks cut off and get raped repeatedly by men for shaming the human race in general. Like I said these are savages and not humans. And I could care less about their culture and sensitivity to it. We are in the 21st century and not the 5th century.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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NR
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Now now, unless you are from their culture, you have no right to tell them what is right and wrong. [Roll Eyes]

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
Now now, unless you are from their culture, you have no right to tell them what is right and wrong. [Roll Eyes]

F*ck em... my culture is a eye for a eye and to have their d*cks cut off while they get raped by the whole prison population... that will show them what real "shame" is... [Mad]

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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jordanreed
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what about aboriginal tribes in austraila or africa or where-ever?..should we go around the world and teach them our version of right and wrong..or maybe give them lessons in christianity? if we can find them?..those dam africans that dont wear clothes!! that really bugs me..we should teach them how to dress!! those dam hippies with their long hair!..they look like women! why cant everyone be just like me?

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jordan

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NR
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Wasn't the term "savages" used to justify the extermination of the Native Americans, just to name a few? [Eek!]

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One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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jordanreed
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makes it easier to massacre em

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jordan

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Stock, Ham, and Mayo Sandwich
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Just drop a Love Bomb on 'em!
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jordanreed
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2 dollars /male scalp...$1/female...50 cents for childs scalp..dirty , savage, heathens...backward culture, should be loving,good, christians, like us!

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jordan

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NR
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Besides Machiavelli, everyone knows that the NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the great perpetuator of RNC lies, most often through his favorite media lovechild, FOX news... [Roll Eyes]

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One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
Besides Machiavelli, everyone knows that the NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the great perpetuator of RNC lies, most often through his favorite media lovechild, FOX news... [Roll Eyes]

The story was reported in London independently and why would Murdoch lie that this was a "honor" killing? it came out in trial and is in the public record...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
what about aboriginal tribes in austraila or africa or where-ever?..should we go around the world and teach them our version of right and wrong..or maybe give them lessons in christianity? if we can find them?..those dam africans that dont wear clothes!! that really bugs me..we should teach them how to dress!! those dam hippies with their long hair!..they look like women! why cant everyone be just like me?

Murder is a whole lot different then long hair, nudity etc. Those are not crimes. So I guess you advocate killing your family member because she kissed a boy in public in the name of culture and 5th century thinking. We'll at least I know where you stand.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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NR
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Sorry Mach, I guess I'm just going to have to start including "sarcasm" tags when I post comments like the one above...

There was no mention of a source in the original post other than the NY post. In all honesty, I am surprised that Bdgee didn't beat me to the comment, though unlike me, he would have been completely serious about it.

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One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example.

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jordanreed
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quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
what about aboriginal tribes in austraila or africa or where-ever?..should we go around the world and teach them our version of right and wrong..or maybe give them lessons in christianity? if we can find them?..those dam africans that dont wear clothes!! that really bugs me..we should teach them how to dress!! those dam hippies with their long hair!..they look like women! why cant everyone be just like me?

Murder is a whole lot different then long hair, nudity etc. Those are not crimes. So I guess you advocate killing your family member because she kissed a boy in public in the name of culture and 5th century thinking. We'll at least I know where you stand.
why would i advocate that?.. its not my belief.

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jordan

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NR
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Father found guilty of ordering daughter’s murder in ’honour killing’

By PAISLEY DODDS
Monday, June 11, 2007

LONDON (AP) - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called "honour killing" was found guilty of murder on Monday.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.

Her death is the latest in an increasing trend of such killings in Britain, home to some 1.8 million Muslims. More than 100 homicides are under investigation as potential "honour killings."

Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, planned the killing during a family meeting, prosecutors told the court. Two others have pleaded guilty in the case. Two more suspects have fled the country. Sentencing is expected later this month.

The men accused the young woman of shaming her family by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernized and falling in love with a man who didn’t come from their Iraqi village. The Kurdish family came to Britain in 1998 when Banaz Mahmod was 11.

"She was my present, my future, my hope," said Rahmat Suleimani, 29, Banaz Mahmod’s boyfriend.

During the three-month trial, prosecutors said Mahmod’s father beat his daughter for using hairspray and adopting other Western ways. Her uncle once told her she would have been "turned to ashes" if she were his daughter and had shamed the family by becoming involved with the Iranian Kurd, her sister 22-year-old Bekhal Mahmod testified.

Banaz Mahmod ran away from home when she was a teenager but returned when her father sent her an audio tape in which he warned he would kill her sisters, her mother and himself if she did not come home, her sister said.

Full Text At:
http://www.chroniclejournal.com/CP_stories.php?id=48766

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Machiavelli
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Here's the BBC report on it... you can find other independent reports of it on the Net:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6722699.stm

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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you beat me to it...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
quote:
Originally posted by Machiavelli:
quote:
Originally posted by jordanreed:
what about aboriginal tribes in austraila or africa or where-ever?..should we go around the world and teach them our version of right and wrong..or maybe give them lessons in christianity? if we can find them?..those dam africans that dont wear clothes!! that really bugs me..we should teach them how to dress!! those dam hippies with their long hair!..they look like women! why cant everyone be just like me?

Murder is a whole lot different then long hair, nudity etc. Those are not crimes. So I guess you advocate killing your family member because she kissed a boy in public in the name of culture and 5th century thinking. We'll at least I know where you stand.
why would i advocate that?.. its not my belief.
Well you seem to be advocating it with your sarcasm about why don't we change all cultures...something like murder in the name of "honor" and/or culture is nothing but savagery in the sense of having no morals/scruples when it comes to human life over backwards thinking...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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jordanreed
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really?... I thought you were deeper than that..

and ,I wasnt being sarcastic. changing all cultures to fit your belief seems to be what you're advocating

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jordan

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glassman
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Well you seem to be advocating it with your sarcasm about why don't we change all cultures...something like murder in the name of "honor" and/or culture is nothing but savagery in the sense of having no morals/scruples when it comes to human life over backwards thinking...

the Aztec regularly sacrificed humans...
the Japanese practiced Sepuku...

Americans have elevated "staying alive at any cost" much higher than many cultures..

i suspect it's cuz, deep down? most Americans don't really believe in a kind and forgiving God.

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turbokid
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:


i suspect it's cuz, deep down? most Americans don't really believe in a kind and forgiving God.

i wonder if its cause we are more intelligent or more foolish... .. ..

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Herbert Hoover 1930

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by turbokid:
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:


i suspect it's cuz, deep down? most Americans don't really believe in a kind and forgiving God.

i wonder if its cause we are more intelligent or more foolish... .. ..
good question. Is a societies God a reflection of that societies most profound aspirations? Or is it, as Marx said (of religion in general)? An opiate for the masses?

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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jordanreed
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i like marxs' quote.. kinda my belief

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jordan

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glassman
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Marx had a good point. and i have no doubt that religion has been used that way.
on the other hand? i liked Einstein's attitude better:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)


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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. (Albert Einstein) Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955


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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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jordanreed
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sounds like marx is speaking of the organised religious form and einstein a more in depth personalised experience with the world around us...einstein hits the nail on the head...but then, so does marx..

hard to find fault with either..how could i possibly attempt to?..i'm not even in the same universe as those two..

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jordan

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jordanreed
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Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. (Albert Einstein) Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955


i love that

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jordan

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turbokid
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A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930


i kinda like this one too..

The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.
-- Albert Einstein, letter to Sigmund Freud (30 July 1932

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Herbert Hoover 1930

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bdgee
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What Einstein believed is that, inevitability, what is now is what statistical rigor requires of what was.

Realizing that, it is difficult to divorce his abhorrence of quantum mechanics from the need of his ego to have the last word on fundamental principles.

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Machiavelli
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Point is any killing done in the name of religion or culture is wrong and should be eradicated. I'm not advocating changing anyone's culture completely. Only such things that are criminal and fundamentally wrong. Eradicating something that is wrong is neither christian nor anything else. All I'm saying is that the people in the Middle East who practice "Honor" killing and "honor" rape (i read a case or two about this) need to stop living in the past with such a tradition and be human and realize that it is just wrong. If they feel shamed (which I think is BS and that it's just their BS ego's of a man not being able to control a woman) then they should disown that individual from the family and not resort to killing them. The real shame is the loss of human life no matter what the reason but especially for this/their reasons.

Btw Marx is right that religion is the Opiate of the Masses. Everyone needs a drug in life and that happens to be the drug of choice for religious people or religious fanatics.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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bdgee
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Nah...

Some choose to be Baptist or Jews or Methodist and some drug (maybe a precription, even) claims them.

It ain't like they get much of a choice.

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Machiavelli
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We'll actually they have many choices but the statement by Marx is not about any particular religion but about religion in general/overall. "Religion is the Opiate of the Masses". Religion to some if not most who are fanatical or just a passing religious person is a "make you feel good" drug. Hence the "opiate" word in Marx's statement.

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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Persia
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Yeep, the Kurd family, they were savages allright...

Native american killings, black slavery, hiroshima and nagasaki, vietnam, iraq, KKK, racist fundamentalist evangelists, daily shootings, daily rapes, daily gangrapes...
Yeah, you Americans , you are all a bunch of holy saints, right?

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turbokid
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excellent point persia!
of course we are holy saints, just ask us. [Smile]


"this country was founded by a bunch of slave owners who wanted to be free"
-george carlin

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"Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
Herbert Hoover 1930

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bdgee
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We are arrogant "know it all" azzholes in many many cases.
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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by Persia:
Yeep, the Kurd family, they were savages allright...

Native american killings, black slavery, hiroshima and nagasaki, vietnam, iraq, KKK, racist fundamentalist evangelists, daily shootings, daily rapes, daily gangrapes...
Yeah, you Americans , you are all a bunch of holy saints, right?

1. Was in the past not present: Native american killings, black slavery, hiroshima/nagasaki

2. Was done to defend a country: South Vietnam from North Vietnam like the Korean war

3. Is in all countries: general crime (rapes,murders, robberies.), racism

4. Something we cannot stop because we have no control over politicians: Iraq

Point is things in the past we did & we learn from and realize they are wrong. We evolve and do not live in the past & try to repeat it. The Middle East never evolves and always lives in the past. We do not kill or have our relatives killed because they kissed their bf in public in the name of so called "honor". It's all about the male ego and the control of women in middle eastern society and to enforce such things they resort to murder and call it a matter of "honor"(apparently a male can't dishonor or shame the family for going out with a girl the family disapproves or for public things like kissing.You don't hear of males getting killed in the name of "honor" by their families).If we disapprove of a female relative with someone we do not like we disown them from the family or we accept it even if we disapprove because we love our relatives and value our family's human life. We do not live in 5th century Middle East. We are no saints but we are not savages with regards to our families that much I can say.

--------------------
Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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