posted
Morale is not good...The break down between Officers and enlisted is something I have seen up front and personal before...
Not in all Units, but I am afraid it is growing like a Wild Fire...
Officers are going to have their hands full, when the Old time NCO'S start getting pissed off.
Same O same O as Nam.....Soldiers are just plain fed up with the local nationals....An the Iraq nationals are getting fed up with us...
Bush has us in a position that has tied our hands.
We need an open Battle field with an Army that we can defeat....We did that..And now?
Any exuse to pull out, will now give the Terrorists the Victory they have been waiting and planing for.
Meanwhile, these volunteer Troops are coming home with a " Burst Bubble Syndrome" that will effect the entire Military..
I hate to say it, but! I think we need to return to the draft...
I can not believe I would ever agree with Charly Wrangel, but soilder to soldier I am in agreement with him on this one.
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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Winning the war was the easy part. But unfortunately, the ongoing occupation has been violent and bloody. Occupations in hostile territory, with a suicidal and widespread insurgency that has no qualms about civilian casualties, are difficult to maintain especially from a morale perspective.
I do respectfully disagree with the need for a draft though. That would open too many doors that should remain closed during this presidency IMO.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pagan, were you in Nam? if so are not the similarities becoming apparent....Do I have you confused with someone else, or were you a " Cobra Jockey ".
These young soldiers are being put in a meatgrinder of growing hatred...They will and are reacting in kind.
Historicaly speaking we do not do well in this kind of situation...They are trained as attack soldiers, not social workers and cops.
Officers are spending more and more of there time working on morale with these young adults..Bad sign.
Hardened NCO'S as well, are working overtime to keep these young folks from apathy.
Way to many War time marriages are happening, draftee's generaly are not so proned to do that..
In my expieriance in Nam, the married dudes, mostly young enlisted, had big problems when they got "Dear Johns".
Many of us always dreaded the day we had to put the married guys belongings in a box, and send it home.
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: That would open too many doors that should remain closed during this presidency IMO.
"This presidency" Made those doors and the reasons to open them.
Agreed. But my point was we do NOT want to give this presidency access to a draft IMO.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It appears that we can not get enough support of the Iraq people to fight this war, so here is the part I don't get, Why is a Iraq cival war so Bad? If we step back out of the cities and see who wins. I thought we were only going to be there long enough to allow them to control their own country. Whoever "Them" is. This whole thing is a mixed up mess the good guys are mixed with the bad guys the bad guys with the good guys and we are right in the middle. We have evened out the playing field enough by now, it time to let the Iraq people step up to the plate if they want a free nation. I am tired of seeing our young people wasted on these conflicts, you will never win this war the way this administration wants to win it, past history will tell you that.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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We step out now IWIH and two things will happen.
1) America will lose even more face in the region and the world abroad about meddling in foreign issues then abandoning their partners as soon as things get hard.
2) Iraq is SO unstable right now it seems inevitable that without a multinational military presence it will be absorbed into Iran. While most muslim country's are dominated by the Sunni party (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia) Iran has the Shia party in power. If they were to support the Shia party in Iraq in a civil war the Sunni's party could be routed completely from Iraq. In the short term that could solve the unrest in Iraq but don't think for a minute that the Sunni dominated goverments of the neighboring countries will be happy about a Shia dominated superpower forming in thier midst.
Instead of a civil war in Iraq we could end up with a war that spans the entire middle-east! Made all the more scary by the fact that Iran is trying to procure nuclear cababilities and from what I hear Pakistan ALREADY has them!
The Bigfoot
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
The Bigfoot, When do we get out? When the American casualties get greater than Viet Nam? What is going to change the course of events to allow us to withdraw? I think we are heading for an endless war. The reasoning used to stay in Iraq is very similiar reasoning that was used for our continued involvement in Vietnam. I am not sure what they used for our involvement in Korea, at least that country was split. Maybe some one that goes back that far can tell us.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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There are no easy answers, but I think a pull out right now only has bad possibilities. I'm thinking another year...maybe two and we can say we have trained the Iraqi military as best we could and start a strategic pullout.
Do I like it? NO. Do I think we will be able to put down the growing hostilities? Probably Not. I don't like that we went there in the first place.
But we are there, and we are the ones who created this instability. It is our responsibility to do our best to give Iraq the time it needs to start working again.
Look at New Orleans... 6 months and they still struggle to provide basic services. And that is without any violence/ religious strife/ or anti-American press.
It takes time. Time takes money. Time takes lives. I hate it, but that doesn't change anything.
The best thing we can do IMO is show our troops how much we care during this hard duty. And call for peace and tolerance by the Iraqi people.
The Bigfoot
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
what i want to know is which faction blew the Golden Dome Mosque. Bush says it was al-queda, but the Shia seem to think it was the Sunnis...
If the Sunni's did it? then they must be counting on support from outside the country... that won't be coming from Iran obviously...
if the Sunni's and the Shia go to war? we would probably work with the Kurds (if they are willing) to protect them.... but? by sheer numbers? the Sunni's won't be able to stand... and we are basically allied with Sunni's outside of Iraq...
it's a mess.... and this mess is why Bush the first didn't go all the way to Baghdad The First time...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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You are not kidding a super big problem. Worst case happened trying to stabilize a
country that is unstable internaly. With deep rooted religious reason at the core of the problem.Lol
If you read what happened to Rome there they started to convert the legions to zorasterism which was the religion of the day in Persia.They came back to convert and brought with them a form of what is thought to be influenza that damn near did the city Rome in and made it easy prey for Arlic and his armies of merceneries. Buy the time things were over even though the Romans won battles and gained wealth beyound belief they wished they never heard of Persia.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yes, each of the things you describe is inevitable if we leave Iraq now.
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: We step out now IWIH and two things will happen.
1) America will lose even more face in the region and the world abroad about meddling in foreign issues then abandoning their partners as soon as things get hard.
2) Iraq is SO unstable right now it seems inevitable that without a multinational military presence it will be absorbed into Iran. While most muslim country's are dominated by the Sunni party (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia) Iran has the Shia party in power. If they were to support the Shia party in Iraq in a civil war the Sunni's party could be routed completely from Iraq. In the short term that could solve the unrest in Iraq but don't think for a minute that the Sunni dominated goverments of the neighboring countries will be happy about a Shia dominated superpower forming in thier midst.
Instead of a civil war in Iraq we could end up with a war that spans the entire middle-east! Made all the more scary by the fact that Iran is trying to procure nuclear cababilities and from what I hear Pakistan ALREADY has them!
The Bigfoot
Each of them was predicted and it was pointed out that the only way to avoid then was to not invade Iraq in the first place and the Administration told us that they knew better. Of course they didn't know crap then and don't know any more now.
Each of the things you describe is inevitable if we leave Iraq now and is inevitable if we don't leave Iraq now. That certainty was granted upon ingoring truth and invading Iraq in the first place.
You are also correct in noting that,
"....we are there, and we are the ones who created this instability." "
But then you show that you have been tipping the Administration kool aide by saying:
"I think a pull out right now only has bad possibilities. I'm thinking another year...maybe two and we can say we have trained the Iraqi military as best we could and start a strategic pullout."
"I'm thinking another year...maybe two and we can say we have trained the Iraqi military as best we could and start a strategic pullout. It is our responsibility to do our best to give Iraq the time it needs to start working again."
"The best thing we can do IMO is show our troops how much we care during this hard duty. And call for peace and tolerance by the Iraqi people."
Lets be bluntly honest and admit that the Administration either fed us b-ll s--t all along or was just too hopelessly incompetent to be even close to right. Either, of course, makes it absurd to continue to place any value at all in what they claim.
What we invision as a democratic state WILL NOT HAPPEN in Iraq in our lifetimes. Iraq has been turned into an islamic state by the invasion and the Arab people and most of the Moslem world will be hating and attacking the US for decades because it has been proved we invaded without reason.
Another year or another dozen years will only increase the depth of the flaw we brough about by allowing Bush to dictate to the world.
And all of these things were pointed out over and over BEFORE the invasion. Bush refused to pay attention.....or give a damn.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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I don't drink the party kool-aid bdgee. But I do have a healthy dose of fix-what-you-break mentality. My reasons are not Bush's and his are not mine.
As to the civil war. Yes, we went through ours and came out the better for it. But we had minimal outside influence and it was back in the days when you couldn't kill 10,000 people with the push of a button. Ours wasn't religiously motivted. It was economically/human rights motivated.
Ahh...Gotta go. More later.
BF
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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What we have over there is more akin to family,,,, secular religious,,,, territorial feuds, than a Civil War...
How many times does it have to be brought out "" """ They have been at it for Centurys"""""
And we think we are just going to waltz in there and solve the whole frigging problem in one election cycle!!!!
Look, we got our justice AND REVENGE in Afganastan..We should of ""Hard Based"" up there and kicked ass when necessary!!!
It should be about OIL and Nuclear Weapons! Not messing around trying to save Muslims from killing each other off!
And further more,,,,,this crusade Kee-rap that is trying to be justified is just a poorly played RED HERRING that stinks to high heaven.
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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In my opinion both is the correct answer to your question. The Sunni's were the party in power under Saddam. The had special class in society and a lot of his personal army was made up of Sunni muslims. They were the core of the original insurgency before this became an AL-Quida thing. (The insurgency that is, the Arab vs. America has always been the Al-Quida thing.)
I would just guess it is Al-Quida with Sunni backing that undertook the bombing of the golden dome.
Bdgee, not to be nitpicky but this paragraph doesn't really make sense.
quote: What we invision as a democratic state WILL NOT HAPPEN in Iraq in our lifetimes. Iraq has been turned into an islamic state by the invasion and the Arab people and most of the Moslem world will be hating and attacking the US for decades because it has been proved we invaded without reason.
Another year or another dozen years will only increase the depth of the flaw we brough about by allowing Bush to dictate to the world.
You are quite right, their form of democracy with be different than ours...but they still deserve a shot at it. Iraq was an Islamic state previously under the dictatorship of Saddam. In that sense this is not a loss, just a return to status quo. The problem is the ones who are stepping up to take control are militant with a grudge against both the world at large and specifically against their own neighbors.
And the Muslim world has not been a friend of ours since Afghanistan...well before Iraq was an issue. The problem is worse now, but Iraq is a chance (however slim) to turn the tide on that one. The President can't do it...but maybe, just maybe, if we give them time, the people of Iraq will do it for themselves.
They settle and prosper, and in the history books we look good for seeing it through despite huge challenges. At least to some.
Also, remember this president is nearing the end of his reign. Another couple years and we will have a new administration, one that just might be able to pick up the pieces and find a way that will work.
But that's just the opinion of a Bigfoot.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bigfoot, democracy is a thing the people of a country do, by choice, not something that can be forced on them. You can't even force the opportunity for democracy on a people, since that is undemocratic,by definition.
Had we resisted Bush's urge to go into Iraq, the Muslem world wouldn't have held a grudge for us going into Afganistan. The Muslem's understood why we went into Afganistan. Dismissing them and our guilt for falsifying reasons to invade Iraq with statements like , "And the Muslim world has not been a friend of ours since Afghanistan...well before Iraq was an issue", is an injustice to them and does not explain anything....it's just more Party line BS to change the subject and excuse Bush. Invading Iraq started a process that will not end for decaades at least.
Bush went into Iraq because he wanted to show off how "strong and determined" he is and to change the subject from the rigged election. He succeded. Now we get to live with the consequences of that action and claiming we can fix the broken relations and feelings of the Muslem world or the shattered lives of the Iraqis by staying longer is just more simple minded Party line BS. They didn't ask for us and didn't invite us and didn't want us there, for any reason, particularly for the lot of lies that we used for reasons to invade, none of which had squat to do with installing a democracy.
Did you also speak for Bush's claims that Saddam had WMDs and working agreements with Al Queada and ICBMs armed and fueled and aimed at the U.S.?
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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But having Bush start a War in Iraq to cover up the election he already won dosen't fly with me..
Both Parties "rigged the election" the Republicans just got luckier than the Dem's..LOL
The Dem's never saw it coming, they got cought off gaurd that those bad ole republicans had learned how to cheat lie and steal better than they can! LOL
Posts: 10729 | From: oregon | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Sorry, Dust..., I have more experience with dubya's lies than you. He and his bro stole the election, plane and simple. They have destroyed the evidence by now while the country was worrying about Iraq, all that dubya hadn't already declared sealed by presidential order (contrary to law, by the way) immediately upon taking office. He had it and his documents from the Texas Governor's office and daddy's presidential papers squirreled off into his daddy's presidential library within hours. The war let hem change the subject when the hounds were baying at the stolen election evidence.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
We can't leave now and we had better not take sides we are the unclean the satan. Let it run its course and say we are for peace. Unless circumstances push us in s different direction. I f they do don't mandy pandy around let all hell break lose. If we can't do that then leave and get out and forget we were ever there and pay the price for it we have committed and there is not going to be an easy way to stop and put an end to this now.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about when we went in to Afghanistan after 9/11 to hunt for Osama...I'm talking about when we went into Afghanistan THE FIRST TIME. Which in turn created Osama Bin Laden.
Again I repeat, Bush's reasons are not mine. You are talking to an independant here who, so far, has not voted a single republican into an important office.
I will if the right candidate steps forward, but I haven't seen one yet. I think the republican party has gotten away from their central themes to please the conservative extremists and in the process have lost themselves.
So please...stop talking about my spouting the party line. I don't. If some of what I say sound like the words that come out of Bush's mouth...well...they say the best lies are a bleand of truth and fiction.
P.S. I don't and never did believe that Saddam had a nuclear agenda that went beyond big words and posturing.
The Bigfoot
Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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I tend to think the golden dome bombing is a change in tactics by the insurgent leadership. They've decided they can't force us out by attrition to our own forces, so they are going to heat up the whole damn country until there is no "innocent" lives to say we are protecting. If a true civil war breaks out and America supports the Sunni's they will piss off Iran. If they support the Shia they will piss off Pakistan and strain the relationship with W's good friends in Saudi Arabia.
They will destroy the lives of countless of their own people...but it could work exactly like they want. About all we could od then is patrol the streets and shoot at anything that moves or pull out of the cities entirely and close Iraq's borders until the bloodletting calms down.
The Bigfoot
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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Another problem no one seems to want to talk about in this administration is the cost after the war. We cut back on VA. facilities to treat the combat casualties(physical and mental) and make it harder and harder for these veterans to collect disability at the rate they should get. Even with these cutbacks the amount we are going to pay out long term will be staggering plus what we are going to give to Iraq. Every so often i go down to Oceanside,CA. where Camp Pedleton Marine Base is located and you see how young these soldiers are that are taking the hits, what a shame. Its hard to believe we looked like that, there just kids. You can pick the combat zone veteran out easily when a car backfires, he is the one that is headed for the ground.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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We sure have a mess it has been a little over 3 years now and in my opinion besides beating iraq's armies in the field in detail, nothing else has been accomplished. I know that people could debate that but here we have a civil war brewing,less utilities and commodities for the average citizen of Iraq,and high unemployment. Soldiers are not policemen and never should be trained as such. The Army should be what it was intended to be the last resort in any disagreement between nations and if used an organization that delivers complete and total distrction to anything that it is pointed at. Or it should not be used at all.George W. and Cheny have really put this country in a pickle I hope they know how to get us out of it.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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The war in Iraq is still there and growing ...we will not sacrifice ALL for IRAQ... That is the other stupidy #2..fighting a limited war because limited means fighting the enemies way...
We fight to win or we lose...
If we cant fight to win then stupid 3 joins in..stupid to be there...
Stupid 4 says this isnt anout american interests..this is special bush..oil..cheyney ..greed interest.. Stupid 4 sold america fer bush and cheyney greed...
Stupid 5..doesnt know how to win..just to further rob america and my sacrifice pays for bush/cheyney/admin stupidity
stupid 6 the stupidity escalaltes war and fires anti-americanism and will continue because stupid 6 doesnt understand muslims/islam Il learned in college islam in koran says US against THEY
Stupid 7 thinks democracy can be a way of life in mideast, doesnt know muslims want islam.
And, we americnas let this stupidity to continue..
Stupid 8 doesnt see that our actions have spread this ww3 and igniyed more fuel for the radicals
Stupid 9 doesnt understand that in the end it is us against them...islam says it and we ignore it.. the moderates may not be fighting us but saudi arabia is behind alot of the jihdists and supports it ..so is syria,..iran..mideast..
Stupid 10 seel security to UAE saying it is only ports..how stupid 9 is? Allies become enemies..and we may be allies with the govt but the folks in th mulim world hate us...
I dont care about my life but fer my childrens' sake..can we give them an america i once knew?? How can we americans let stupidity destroy us? Unles we define out interests and fight to win..we are in trouble but the stupid bush admin could care less about qamerica just their greed and stupidity...
Posts: 864 | Registered: Jun 2004
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you know...i was there, and there is a lot of american blood in that country. i really dont care about that place anymore. we need to get the hell out. who cares if other countries think we look weak. bring all the troops home, and if someone talks smack we use an iron fist...not this hand out lollipops to the kids crap....thats not what the military is for.
some say "oh well then if we pull out then thte fallen is in vain"
no way i say! look if you are going to do it do it right. we have rules of engagement that are causing lives of soldiers. some insurgent shoots a guy and runs in a mosque you cant go get him because a mosque is a "sensitive place" a place of holy worship....oh but nevermind the rockets and AK's in there hidden. the media makes us look like barbarians over there. why wont they show all the beheadings on the news for those who wont convert to islam?
you know...they say 10 years to be in iraq....TEN YEARS. who is going to pay for that? th ultimate price is the soldier. id rathter die fighting drug smugglers on the U.S./Mexico border than around the world. those have a more direct link on our nations security. the poisoning of our youths minds with cocaine.
you know...they say that the battle for fallujah had the same intensity as the tet offensive. some areas are really bad over there. i know because i was in ar ramadi. can you believe that? 5 years later and iraq is worse than when the invasion began. nott the soliders fault though. we go and do what the president wants. id rather have the citizens VOTE on where to send us to better serve the people than serve a politician. what do they know anyway? dont talk about it unless you have been there and capitol hill hasnt been there.
screw them, saddam didnt attack us we could have just done an air campaign and won.
did anyone else noticed how FAST we were RUSHED into this war?
you know im just an enlisted infantry guy, but if i was in charge instead of being bogged down in the cities i would have spread across the borders of iran, saudi, and syria to block the insurgents infiltration. hmmm id also be friendly with the nomadic tribes to be taaught the ancient trade routes.....mere dirt trails so basic they are effective. These routes that some follow parallel to the euphrates are widely used by syrian insurgent groups to smuggle weapons in. its almost as if we have TOO MUCH technology that the most simple of means outsmarts us.
anyone notice when saddam was around there was no insurgency? you cant MAKE iraq be "free"
that whole freedom concept in the middle east is trying to tell hitler that a jewish wife will give him peace of mind.
oil and water= islamic law and democracy
look, i am not mad i was there, and id go back without fuss. i just think id better protect this country by patrolling the border of mexico and texas along the rio grande than patrolling in a humvee along the euphrates river.
this war will soon hit the 1 TRILLION dollar price tag. can you believe that? 1 TRILLION dollars....like CMKX O/S count. all that money, all those lives lost, and all those who made it back with PTSD...the byproduct of this war.
oh and look at this saddam trial...saddam is running the show! just shoot the guy...why on eartht is he on trial he admitted to all his bad doings. im tired of the U.N. and our govt wanting to play patty cake with this guy.
oh well...screw it...its all politics. like theye say in blackhawk down..once the bullets start flying politics goes right out the window.
ehhhh just ramblings .....
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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