posted
The highest ranking soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was sentenced to eight years in prison for abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib during a court martial Thursday in Baghdad. Staff Sgt. Ivan “Chip” Frederick, 38, an Army reservist from Buckingham, Va., was also given a reduction in rank, forfeiture of pay and a dishonorable discharge. The sentencing came a day after he pleaded guilty Wednesday to eight counts of abusing and humiliating Iraqi detainees. He testified that he was given no training or support in supervising detainees and only learned of regulations against mistreatment after the abuses occurred between October and December last year. He said that when he brought issues up with his commanders, “they told me to do what MI told me to do,” referring to military intelligence.
I just had to post this. What does everybody think of this sentence? Personally, I feel it is ridiculous. We know that they did these things so they should be punished, but eight YEARS in prison???? That is waaaaaaaaaaay too long! I think the reduction in rank, forfeiture of pay, and dishonorable discharge is enough in itself. If they want, they can make them go to jail for 60 days or so, but eight years??
Our prisoners get their heads cut off, their prisoners have to masturbate. I mean **** I masturbate without anybody telling me to, should I go to prison for eight years?
Seriously, if these people were trying to get answers what should they do, give them ice cream? I can just imagine what the CIA does when they are trying to get answers, the only difference is that nobody knows about it. This sentence is completely wrong and pure mistreatment of one of an American soldier. If nothing else, the highest commanders who did not give proper training and asked for answers and ridicule of the prisoners should be getting the sentence.
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Too long of a sentence? I disagree with that. This country is supposed to be the leader in human rights and ethical treatment of POW's. To slap someone on the wrist for disregarding the standards would be unforgivable and send another hypocritical message to the world. You can't draw a comparison to what they did vs. what we did and proclaim that since their crimes are more heinous than ours, we are justified in our actions. You jokingly stated that you "masturbate without anyone telling you to", that's the point, you choose to do so. These prisoners were forced to humiliate themselves in front of others, big difference there. I beleive this person may have been singled out to serve as an example and that ultimate blame rests many wrungs up the ladder but ultimately, this person is responsible for his actions and is now receiving a deserved sentence.
Posts: 5729 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: Too long of a sentence? I disagree with that. This country is supposed to be the leader in human rights and ethical treatment of POW's. To slap someone on the wrist for disregarding the standards would be unforgivable and send another hypocritical message to the world. You can't draw a comparison to what they did vs. what we did and proclaim that since their crimes are more heinous than ours, we are justified in our actions. You jokingly stated that you "masturbate without anyone telling you to", that's the point, you choose to do so. These prisoners were forced to humiliate themselves in front of others, big difference there. I beleive this person may have been singled out to serve as an example and that ultimate blame rests many wrungs up the ladder but ultimately, this person is responsible for his actions and is now receiving a deserved sentence.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, we are a humanitarian leader, but why? So many people get upset by all of the things we do outside of our own country, and that is why we have so many problems. Yes I may choose to masturbate, but so what. Forcing somebody to do that is a harmless crime. This sentence is obviously an over-sentence because it comes from a miliatary court. If you had a civilian doing something similar, that civilian would not be punished nearly to that extent. The fact is, anytime we take prisoners abuse happens. You cannot tell me that stuff like this has not happened before, the only difference is that now it has been brought to light - it will continue on forever. This soldier knows what he did wrong and he has learned his lesson. I guarantee you that if he were not given a prison sentence he would not do anything like that again. Prisons are meant to rehabilitate, so why put him in there? This punishment will only make him into a worse person. People who go into prison knowing what they did was wrong will turn into different people while there. This prison sentence is only going to hurt him more in the end. He will always know what he did wrong, and he won't do it again.
When things like this happen you need to look to the top. Yes, maybe he should have known what he was doing was wrong, but sometimes it takes harsh actions to get answers. In order to get the information they want they may need to torture some of the prisoners, but you know what, it will pay off in the end. It is the top officials that promote this kind of action to get answers. Do you really think that the miliatary gets most of its answers by simply asking questions? You have no idea what goes on in those small dark, wet rooms. The amount of torture and abuse that has gone on for years is something the average American never even thinks about.
If these people were not humiliated in such a manner and did not give answers, they would have been taken elswhere and been punished even more to get answers.
In closing, yes we are supposed to be a humanitarian nation, and yes it may be that way for the most part, but under the cover there are things that go unnoticed. In getting the kind of information the government wants, there is not humanitarian way in going about it. It is that simple. You cannot just ask a question and expect a correct answer!
quote:Yes I may choose to masturbate, but so what. Forcing somebody to do that is a harmless crime. This sentence is obviously an over-sentence because it comes from a miliatary court. If you had a civilian doing something similar, that civilian would not be punished nearly to that extent. The fact is, anytime we take prisoners abuse happens. You cannot tell me that stuff like this has not happened before, the only difference is that now it has been brought to light - it will continue on forever.
Forced masturbation in front of your peers is a harmless crime? Try it, grab someone and force them to do it in public and see what your sentence might be. Physically harmless maybe, psychologically it could be devastating. I'm sure you're right that things like this go on all the time as do rapes, robberies, murders, etc. and when the perpetrators are caught, they are punished. This person had the unfortunate luck of being caught and should be punished.
quote:Originally posted by Upside: originally posted by glfpimp: Forced masturbation in front of your peers is a harmless crime? Try it, grab someone and force them to do it in public and see what your sentence might be. Physically harmless maybe, psychologically it could be devastating. I'm sure you're right that things like this go on all the time as do rapes, robberies, murders, etc. and when the perpetrators are caught, they are punished. This person had the unfortunate luck of being caught and should be punished.
That would be completely different. If I were in a foreign country and forced to masturbate in front of people, I would more than likely never see those people again. If I did it in the middle of a street in Minneapolis, I may see people I see everyday and will see maybe for the rest of my life. Granted they may have had to do it in front of friends and what not, but their friends were doing it too. And I didn't mean that masturbation necessarily goes on all the time, I am talking more in terms of gouging eyes and cutting fingers off.
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Saying you were'nt taught how to treat them is what probably got him 8 years.It is unexcusable,you know right from wrong this guy was a real sicko.Even if he was ordered to do this which he wasnt,if you know its wrong when it came out he would still be found guilty.I agree 8 years is to long but they had to make it harsh on the outside .I am sure he will do alot less time but he deserves some time.
Posts: 942 | From: tracy,ca U.S.A | Registered: Aug 2004
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when i was in, we were NEVER trained on how to deal with unlawful orders... yes he deserves time, but i think if we get down to it, you will find Rumsfeld is the lowest official that deserves credit for a lot of this behaviour...
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Could you please explain in detail.What you mean by all Greeks,umm i don't get it and would like to understand.You're normally detail oriented.I will be waiting for your response,so as i too can become better informed.
Posts: 942 | From: tracy,ca U.S.A | Registered: Aug 2004
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I understand about hazing going on,and disagree with most of it in college,military,and anywhere else.But this is no dorm or military school.And Rumsfeld had no clue about this,man i would like to see you stretch that to him cmon,you arent serious.
Posts: 942 | From: tracy,ca U.S.A | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tigertony: I understand about hazing going on,and disagree with most of it in college,military,and anywhere else.But this is no dorm or military school.And Rumsfeld had no clue about this,man i would like to see you stretch that to him cmon,you arent serious.
why do you say that? he made the call to detain hundreds in Cuba specifically to avoid the constitution.... that is a character statement....Bush backed it..
Rumsfeld, senators: Detainees treated well January 28, 2002 Posted: 10:27 AM EST (1527 GMT)
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and four U.S. senators who toured the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Sunday said they are satisfied with the treatment of Afghan war detainees housed there.
"I have absolutely full confidence in the way the detainees are being handled and treated," Rumsfeld said. "I've spent a lot of time talking to the people there about it."
The troops at Guantanamo Bay guarding the detainees have "been doing a first-rate job. I came down to say thank you," Rumsfeld said.
Traveling with Rumsfeld were U.S. Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas; Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii; Ted Stevens, R-Alaska; and Dianne Feinstein, D-California. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
typical politicain...ready to take credit when it's good news...run like heck when it's bad...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
posted
this from th New Yorker...hard to get anything spin-free....
Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, “Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding.” The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfeld’s testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, “Some people think you can bull**** anyone.”
good article.... it's does great job outlining the difference beteween having a WAR on terrorism or treating it as criminal activity.... so as you read it keep in my mind that i am not proposing that we shouldn't be in a WAR...but i think a lot of people haven't though this thru... http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
Rumsfeld has definitely set the precedents for chucking the Geneva convention.... and that cuts BOTH ways too....
Last week, the government consultant, who has close ties to many conservatives, defended the Administration’s continued secrecy about the special-access program in Abu Ghraib. “Why keep it black?” the consultant asked. “Because the process is unpleasant. It’s like making sausage—you like the result but you don’t want to know how it was made. Also, you don’t want the Iraqi public, and the Arab world, to know.
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
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Powell says Bush was 'informed' of Red Cross concerns Officials advised president 'in general terms' about reports of abuse, he says By Mark Matthews Sun National Staff Originally published May 12, 2004 WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said yesterday that he and other top officials kept President Bush "fully informed ... in general terms" about complaints made by the Red Cross and others over ill-treatment of detainees in U.S. custody.
Powell's statement suggests Bush may have known earlier than the White House has acknowledged about complaints raised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and human rights groups regarding abuse of detainees in Iraq.
"We kept the president informed of the concerns that were raised by the ICRC and other international organizations as part of my regular briefings of the president, and advised him that we had to follow these issues, and when we got notes sent to us or reports sent to us ... we had to respond to them, and the president certainly made it clear that that's what he expected us to do," Powell said http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.powell12may12,0,2804533.story?coll=bal-news-nation
quote:Originally posted by tigertony: Saying you were'nt taught how to treat them is what probably got him 8 years.It is unexcusable,you know right from wrong this guy was a real sicko.Even if he was ordered to do this which he wasnt,if you know its wrong when it came out he would still be found guilty.I agree 8 years is to long but they had to make it harsh on the outside .I am sure he will do alot less time but he deserves some time.
When I said that, I didn't mean anything about them not knowing how to treat them just in general, I meant how to treat them to get answers out of them. If we wanna make a comparison, use a typical American prison as a benchmark. If you do that, all Iraqi's are being abused. In American prisons they have cable television, internet access, libraries, workout centers, "play time," basketball courts....etc. etc. So if you wanna talk about treatment for detainees, well we should just execute all of the people that worked in that prison because the prisoners couldn't even watch seinfeld!
I am not trying to say abusing the prisoners is right, I am just saying that they were told to get answers, and that's how they went about it. Torture is a way to get answers, it is as simple as that. I guarantee you that some pretty high people went through that prison when this abuse was going on, and didn't think twice about it.
You cannot run a prison that sees that many people without visits from high ranking military officials.
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At the Jan. 15 meeting, Kellenberger told Powell, "We have serious concerns about detainees in Iraq," although he did not detail them, a senior State Department official said. The next month, the Red Cross summarized its previous findings in a harsh 24-page confidential critique of abuses against Iraqi detainees between March and November 2003, calling some of them "tantamount to torture."
The report described an inspection of the Abu Ghraib prison in mid-October in which Red Cross officials witnessed detainees who were undergoing interrogation being kept "completely naked in totally empty cells and in total darkness." A military intelligence officer said this practice was "part of the process."
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today's headlines seem to support my ongoing concerns about who is creating more terrorists... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6300363/ Ex-Guantanamo detainee turns to terrorism Did he deceive the Pentagon or was he pushed to extremes?By Lisa Myers and the NBC Investigative Unit Updated: 6:06 p.m. ET Oct. 21, 2004Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yes,they had some reports of abuse and looked into it a conducted an investigation and found out how serious it was.I don't think they had a clue it was like this.I am sure the thought some prisoners got smacked around a little.But not all the other crap.Glassman how come you did'nt explain my other question LOL.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: any more doubts?????
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by tigertony: Could you please explain in detail.What you mean by all Greeks,umm i don't get it and would like to understand.You're normally detail oriented.I will be waiting for your response,so as i too can become better informed.
is this what you mean?
GREEKS are a generic reference to the fraternity systems on university campuses... like animal house....LOL
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
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No not that you said it,he actually said that in his defense.I don't think that went over well during court.Believe me it is quite a stretch,trying to say they did that to get answers.That was nothing more than a few wanting to humilate them and laugh at them and dehumanize them.I guarantee you that is not some new information technique.
quote:Originally posted by glfpimp: When I said that, I didn't mean anything about them not knowing how to treat them just in general, I meant how to treat them to get answers out of them. If we wanna make a comparison, use a typical American prison as a benchmark. If you do that, all Iraqi's are being abused. In American prisons they have cable television, internet access, libraries, workout centers, "play time," basketball courts....etc. etc. So if you wanna talk about treatment for detainees, well we should just execute all of the people that worked in that prison because the prisoners couldn't even watch seinfeld!
I am not trying to say abusing the prisoners is right, I am just saying that they were told to get answers, and that's how they went about it. Torture is a way to get answers, it is as simple as that. I guarantee you that some pretty high people went through that prison when this abuse was going on, and didn't think twice about it.
You cannot run a prison that sees that many people without visits from high ranking military officials.
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You can take the 2nd half belief,of the report and i can take the first half and say he was a terrorist all along and thats why they are being detainted proving my side.Just in how you look at it.
quote:Originally posted by glassman: today's headlines seem to support my ongoing concerns about who is creating more terrorists... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6300363/ [b] Ex-Guantanamo detainee turns to terrorism Did he deceive the Pentagon or was he pushed to extremes?By Lisa Myers and the NBC Investigative Unit Updated: 6:06 p.m. ET Oct. 21, 2004[/B]
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