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I just had to post this. What does everybody think of this sentence? Personally, I feel it is ridiculous. We know that they did these things so they should be punished, but eight YEARS in prison???? That is waaaaaaaaaaay too long! I think the reduction in rank, forfeiture of pay, and dishonorable discharge is enough in itself. If they want, they can make them go to jail for 60 days or so, but eight years??
Our prisoners get their heads cut off, their prisoners have to masturbate. I mean **** I masturbate without anybody telling me to, should I go to prison for eight years?
Seriously, if these people were trying to get answers what should they do, give them ice cream? I can just imagine what the CIA does when they are trying to get answers, the only difference is that nobody knows about it. This sentence is completely wrong and pure mistreatment of one of an American soldier. If nothing else, the highest commanders who did not give proper training and asked for answers and ridicule of the prisoners should be getting the sentence.
this is just another reason why i won't vote to re-elect....
this is a perfect example of how Bush is not for the little guy.....
and any enlisted person who votes for Bush get's what they deserve
no Zero's have been charged...and the policy that set this scenario goes UP all the way......
i suspect they gave him the heavy sentence because he refused to accept the buck...
my bet is that they pressured him to take more credit for the decision making process...
if you do any DD on the goings on at Gitmo, you will find that even our own chaplains (muslim) have been harrassed mercilessly by the system.....
quote:
Originally posted by Upside:
Too long of a sentence? I disagree with that. This country is supposed to be the leader in human rights and ethical treatment of POW's. To slap someone on the wrist for disregarding the standards would be unforgivable and send another hypocritical message to the world. You can't draw a comparison to what they did vs. what we did and proclaim that since their crimes are more heinous than ours, we are justified in our actions. You jokingly stated that you "masturbate without anyone telling you to", that's the point, you choose to do so. These prisoners were forced to humiliate themselves in front of others, big difference there. I beleive this person may have been singled out to serve as an example and that ultimate blame rests many wrungs up the ladder but ultimately, this person is responsible for his actions and is now receiving a deserved sentence.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, we are a humanitarian leader, but why? So many people get upset by all of the things we do outside of our own country, and that is why we have so many problems. Yes I may choose to masturbate, but so what. Forcing somebody to do that is a harmless crime. This sentence is obviously an over-sentence because it comes from a miliatary court. If you had a civilian doing something similar, that civilian would not be punished nearly to that extent. The fact is, anytime we take prisoners abuse happens. You cannot tell me that stuff like this has not happened before, the only difference is that now it has been brought to light - it will continue on forever. This soldier knows what he did wrong and he has learned his lesson. I guarantee you that if he were not given a prison sentence he would not do anything like that again. Prisons are meant to rehabilitate, so why put him in there? This punishment will only make him into a worse person. People who go into prison knowing what they did was wrong will turn into different people while there. This prison sentence is only going to hurt him more in the end. He will always know what he did wrong, and he won't do it again.
When things like this happen you need to look to the top. Yes, maybe he should have known what he was doing was wrong, but sometimes it takes harsh actions to get answers. In order to get the information they want they may need to torture some of the prisoners, but you know what, it will pay off in the end. It is the top officials that promote this kind of action to get answers. Do you really think that the miliatary gets most of its answers by simply asking questions? You have no idea what goes on in those small dark, wet rooms. The amount of torture and abuse that has gone on for years is something the average American never even thinks about.
If these people were not humiliated in such a manner and did not give answers, they would have been taken elswhere and been punished even more to get answers.
In closing, yes we are supposed to be a humanitarian nation, and yes it may be that way for the most part, but under the cover there are things that go unnoticed. In getting the kind of information the government wants, there is not humanitarian way in going about it. It is that simple. You cannot just ask a question and expect a correct answer!
quote:
Yes I may choose to masturbate, but so what. Forcing somebody to do that is a harmless crime. This sentence is obviously an over-sentence because it comes from a miliatary court. If you had a civilian doing something similar, that civilian would not be punished nearly to that extent. The fact is, anytime we take prisoners abuse happens. You cannot tell me that stuff like this has not happened before, the only difference is that now it has been brought to light - it will continue on forever.
Forced masturbation in front of your peers is a harmless crime? Try it, grab someone and force them to do it in public and see what your sentence might be. Physically harmless maybe, psychologically it could be devastating. I'm sure you're right that things like this go on all the time as do rapes, robberies, murders, etc. and when the perpetrators are caught, they are punished. This person had the unfortunate luck of being caught and should be punished.
no LOL
goes on all the time..
quote:
Upside, you never joined a fraternity did you???
No, never did join a frat so I can't say I'm talking from some hazing initiation experience but I've gotta think it wouldn't be a pleasant experience.
if these pictures were just snapped as a curiosity it shows some serious idiocy in the command structure of the interrogators .....
it doesn't make sense.... unless you are trying to inflame the Islamic communities around the world....
which it DID....
who gains from that???
follow the money.....
quote:
Originally posted by Upside:
originally posted by glfpimp:
Forced masturbation in front of your peers is a harmless crime? Try it, grab someone and force them to do it in public and see what your sentence might be. Physically harmless maybe, psychologically it could be devastating. I'm sure you're right that things like this go on all the time as do rapes, robberies, murders, etc. and when the perpetrators are caught, they are punished. This person had the unfortunate luck of being caught and should be punished.
That would be completely different. If I were in a foreign country and forced to masturbate in front of people, I would more than likely never see those people again. If I did it in the middle of a street in Minneapolis, I may see people I see everyday and will see maybe for the rest of my life. Granted they may have had to do it in front of friends and what not, but their friends were doing it too. And I didn't mean that masturbation necessarily goes on all the time, I am talking more in terms of gouging eyes and cutting fingers off.
i gotta tellya that's not only not likely, but almost impossible.....
the LOWEST...
they aren't all GREEKS at colleges...
there is hazing at all levels of the military too...
i won't categorise it all as the same type of hazing tho..
quote:
Originally posted by tigertony:
I understand about hazing going on,and disagree with most of it in college,military,and anywhere else.But this is no dorm or military school.And Rumsfeld had no clue about this,man i would like to see you stretch that to him cmon,you arent serious.
why do you say that?
he made the call to detain hundreds in Cuba specifically to avoid the constitution....
that is a character statement....Bush backed it..
Rumsfeld, senators: Detainees treated well
January 28, 2002 Posted: 10:27 AM EST (1527 GMT)
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and four U.S. senators who toured the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Sunday said they are satisfied with the treatment of Afghan war detainees housed there.
"I have absolutely full confidence in the way the detainees are being handled and treated," Rumsfeld said. "I've spent a lot of time talking to the people there about it."
The troops at Guantanamo Bay guarding the detainees have "been doing a first-rate job. I came down to say thank you," Rumsfeld said.
Traveling with Rumsfeld were U.S. Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas; Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii; Ted Stevens, R-Alaska; and Dianne Feinstein, D-California. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
typical politicain...ready to take credit when it's good news...run like heck when it's bad...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, “Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding.” The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfeld’s testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, “Some people think you can bull**** anyone.”
good article....
it's does great job outlining the difference beteween having a WAR on terrorism or treating it as criminal activity....
so as you read it keep in my mind that i am not proposing that we shouldn't be in a WAR...but i think a lot of people haven't though this thru...
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
Rumsfeld has definitely set the precedents for chucking the Geneva convention....
and that cuts BOTH ways too....
Last week, the government consultant, who has close ties to many conservatives, defended the Administration’s continued secrecy about the special-access program in Abu Ghraib. “Why keep it black?” the consultant asked. “Because the process is unpleasant. It’s like making sausage—you like the result but you don’t want to know how it was made. Also, you don’t want the Iraqi public, and the Arab world, to know.
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
i vote war, been treating it as a crime, hasnt been working.
quote:
Originally posted by keithsan:
terrorism crime vs. war.....i vote war, been treating it as a crime, hasnt been working.
osam was counting on you to say that....
Powell's statement suggests Bush may have known earlier than the White House has acknowledged about complaints raised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and human rights groups regarding abuse of detainees in Iraq.
"We kept the president informed of the concerns that were raised by the ICRC and other international organizations as part of my regular briefings of the president, and advised him that we had to follow these issues, and when we got notes sent to us or reports sent to us ... we had to respond to them, and the president certainly made it clear that that's what he expected us to do," Powell said
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.powell12may12,0,2804533.story?coll=bal-news-nation
quote:
Originally posted by tigertony:
Saying you were'nt taught how to treat them is what probably got him 8 years.It is unexcusable,you know right from wrong this guy was a real sicko.Even if he was ordered to do this which he wasnt,if you know its wrong when it came out he would still be found guilty.I agree 8 years is to long but they had to make it harsh on the outside .I am sure he will do alot less time but he deserves some time.
When I said that, I didn't mean anything about them not knowing how to treat them just in general, I meant how to treat them to get answers out of them. If we wanna make a comparison, use a typical American prison as a benchmark. If you do that, all Iraqi's are being abused. In American prisons they have cable television, internet access, libraries, workout centers, "play time," basketball courts....etc. etc. So if you wanna talk about treatment for detainees, well we should just execute all of the people that worked in that prison because the prisoners couldn't even watch seinfeld!
I am not trying to say abusing the prisoners is right, I am just saying that they were told to get answers, and that's how they went about it. Torture is a way to get answers, it is as simple as that. I guarantee you that some pretty high people went through that prison when this abuse was going on, and didn't think twice about it.
You cannot run a prison that sees that many people without visits from high ranking military officials.
The report described an inspection of the Abu Ghraib prison in mid-October in which Red Cross officials witnessed detainees who were undergoing interrogation being kept "completely naked in totally empty cells and in total darkness." A military intelligence officer said this practice was "part of the process."
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
[b]A military intelligence officer said this practice was "part of the process."
[/B]
Exactly...
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
any more doubts?????
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by tigertony:
Could you please explain in detail.What you mean by all Greeks,umm i don't get it and would like to understand.You're normally detail oriented.I will be waiting for your response,so as i too can become better informed.
is this what you mean?
GREEKS are a generic reference to the fraternity systems on university campuses...
like animal house....LOL
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by glfpimp:
When I said that, I didn't mean anything about them not knowing how to treat them just in general, I meant how to treat them to get answers out of them. If we wanna make a comparison, use a typical American prison as a benchmark. If you do that, all Iraqi's are being abused. In American prisons they have cable television, internet access, libraries, workout centers, "play time," basketball courts....etc. etc. So if you wanna talk about treatment for detainees, well we should just execute all of the people that worked in that prison because the prisoners couldn't even watch seinfeld!I am not trying to say abusing the prisoners is right, I am just saying that they were told to get answers, and that's how they went about it. Torture is a way to get answers, it is as simple as that. I guarantee you that some pretty high people went through that prison when this abuse was going on, and didn't think twice about it.
You cannot run a prison that sees that many people without visits from high ranking military officials.
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
is this what you mean?GREEKS are a generic reference to the fraternity systems on university campuses...
like animal house....LOL
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
today's headlines seem to support my ongoing concerns about who is creating more terrorists...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6300363/
[b]
Ex-Guantanamo detainee turns to terrorism
Did he deceive the Pentagon or was he pushed to extremes?By Lisa Myers and the NBC Investigative Unit
Updated: 6:06 p.m. ET Oct. 21, 2004[/B]
we got him how helpfull was that?
might as well do nothing. although that doesnt seem to be working for russia
let's say that 50000 people went thru Abu ghraib and 3o000 got treated badly enough to make them hate US...
that's not very good for oil prices is it??
it's good for the war biz tho....
i am not anti-war...i'm anti-stupidity
NO WMD? but there was some terrorism there....
now there's a lot....and we NEED to fight it withthe military MORE than ever...
did you ever see that movie? WAG the DOG?
why does the dog wag the tail?
because the dog is smarter than the tail...
if the tail is smarter than the dog?
i want to win this war...
we will win it whoever wins the election...
but it comes down to HOW.....
sentencing this guy to 8 years is too much (from what i have heard he did) i could be wrong.....
like i said before, we enlisted did NOT get very good training at a lot of htings...
mine is NOT to question why...
mine is but, to do or die...
and that's the truth...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
Tony, my DD suggests that there is a significant group of people that WANT a war...
not just in Islam.let's say that 50000 people went thru Abu ghraib and 3o000 got treated badly enough to make them hate US...
that's not very good for oil prices is it??
it's good for the war biz tho....
i am not anti-war...i'm anti-stupidity
i honestly don't have a logic issue. if your right and they want war then let'em have it i'm not gonna wait till they push me to far (they already did).
.
the price of oil would be 20$ a barrel right now, if we had been able to win these guys over to OUR capitalism quickly..law and order in Iraq was to our benefit, but they tried to save money by not listening to the intel and military guys who said we need MORE troops....
penny-wise, pound foolish....
now, our whole economy( for 5 yrs or more) is on the edge of the knife...i kid you not..
Putin was watching, and PO'ed cuz we took his oil-for-money gig away and he played the trump card by pullling Yukos oil off the market...as they say in Chess, -check....
now you need to ask yourself, how do we fix this? i'm not saying Kerry is any better, but he's different.and he's no pansy...
the pentagon will get the job done, i have confidence in that...they fight amongst themselves too tho..just like th GOP and the Dems...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 21, 2004).]
i really do try to post stuff that will go up for more than 3 hours....
i try to use the news....that's waht makes them stay up...
SMTR went up cuz of news...
the only news out right now is the election or oil...
if i post one and everybody here buys it, and NOBODY else, i haven't done any of you all any favors have i?
Ahnold helped that more than Kerry tho...
ASTM is the other one of those that still has yet to really run,
but this is all just daytrading right now. i don't like to post daytrade stocks...
that's dog's turf, and he's way better at it than i am...
i expected the market to do better this month than it has, but the oil thing has been very ruff.....
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 21, 2004).]
i am holding(in the pennies) PJTG, HYRF, APNS,CLSI, MAGR but i am mostly cash right now...
i have others not worth mentioning ( like MLON)but those i like...
ALMI, and NEOP, WAGI i traded out of but will buy back in...
i have a big watch list, but it just seems to be fluttering not building support...
part of the problem we are facing is the uncertainty of the election, and i mean the COUNT, not the vote....
it stinks, we can trade BILLIONS of shares a day, and we can transfer 100's of billions of dollars with little error, but these vote counters?????
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
WAGI should go up.....when i don't know... i am not in right now but it is on my closewatch list
i'm seeing a lot of green arrows on my gold mine list,i think they have a lot of gold...i am holding(in the pennies) PJTG, HYRF, APNS,CLSI, MAGR but i am mostly cash right now...
i have others not worth mentioning ( like MLON)but those i like...ALMI, and NEOP, WAGI i traded out of but will buy back in...
i have a big watch list, but it just seems to be fluttering not building support...part of the problem we are facing is the uncertainty of the election, and i mean the COUNT, not the vote....
it stinks, we can trade BILLIONS of shares a day, and we can transfer 100's of billions of dollars with little error, but these vote counters?????
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 21, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by DiQuiRiesco:
How about this?
We find the jacka$$ who published the pictures and videos of all the so-called abuses and hang him for treason.
What was done to those prisoners is nothing compared to what is done to pledges at your local fraternity. Nothing compared to what was done to newbies when I was in the millitary. Point being. These prisoners were subjected to humiliation, but atleast they had their heads while they were being humiliated.
My thoughts exactly...except of course hanging the person for treason. Hangings are another issue and something I think should be reinstated.
Glass, don't start with that count thing them dems keep bringing up, it will be brutal but they don't have a leg to stand on in their florida complaints......
however, there were things done in FLA BEFORE the election that were criminal. nobody was watching cloely enough...
we will see how Bush responds to winning the popular vote and losing the electoral, a very likely scenario....Gore had the option to force many more problems than he did. my bet is that if that happens Bush will not be so gracious...
ya gotta admit that Cheney and Scalia never should've gone duck hunting ...
it's one thing to pull a fast one, it's another to brag about it...
did you see kerry giving his speach in a carhaart jacket-LOL
This election should be chaos, i hear they have lawyers lining up on boths sides in all the swing states.....and some complained about the elections in afghanistan not going well.....
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 22, 2004).]
WASHINGTON, Jan. 17, 2003
"At the very least, you have to start thinking about whether disqualification is necessary"
Northwestern University Law professor Steven Lubet, to CBS News, Radio
(CBS) Vice President Dick Cheney and Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia spent part of last week duck hunting together at a private camp in southern Louisiana, just three weeks after the court agreed to take up the vice president's appeal in lawsuits over his handling of the administration's energy task force, the Los Angeles Times says in its Saturday editions.
While Scalia and Cheney are avid hunters and longtime friends, several experts in legal ethics questioned the timing of their trip and said it raised doubts about Scalia's ability to judge the case impartially, the newspaper pointed out.
But Scalia rejected that concern Friday, telling the Times, "I do not think my impartiality could reasonably be questioned."
Federal law says "any justice or judge shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might be questioned," the Times notes.
For nearly three years, Cheney has been fighting demands that he reveal whether he met with energy industry officials, including Kenneth Lay when Lay was chairman of Enron, while Cheney was formulating the president's energy policy, the Times explains
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/15/politics/main588582.shtml
yeah, right Scalia is impartial......
sheesh...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 22, 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by tigertony:
If they start this lawyer suit crap on voting problems,we might not know who president is until it's time to vote next time.Idiots,i am sick of this whole election.Let them walk ten paces turn and fire survivor is president.
you know what Tony. i like that idea...
cuz even tho i have been percieved as a Kerry fanatic, i'm NOT, i just got sick of Bush and Cheney's antics...
it isn't any one thing specifically, its all of it..
quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
STEM did OK....
i din't put it on it's own thread but it's up quite a bit since i posted it in the thread OSUBUCKS started...Ahnold helped that more than Kerry tho...
ASTM is the other one of those that still has yet to really run,
but this is all just daytrading right now. i don't like to post daytrade stocks...that's dog's turf, and he's way better at it than i am...
i expected the market to do better this month than it has, but the oil thing has been very ruff.....
having as much fun as iam today Tony????
[This message has been edited by tigertony (edited October 25, 2004).]