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Romney Book: ‘Nonworking Parents’ Produce ‘Indolent And Unproductive’ Children
By Alex Seitz-Wald posted from ThinkProgress Special Topic on Apr 16, 2012 at 3:10 pm
As the presidential campaign has become embroiled in “mommy wars,” a passage from Mitt Romney’s autobiography sheds more light on what seems to be his bifurcated prescription for mothers.
For most women, Romney maintains that a choice to work or to stay at home with the kids should be regarded as equally valid, his campaign made clear last week. But for poor women who receive government assistance, staying home is not an option — they should work. Video recovered yesterday shows that Romney said in January that he wants to “increase the work requirement” for mothers who receive welfare. “Those parents [need] to go back to work,” he explained.
A passage from Romney’s book, No Apology: The Case For American Greatness, elaborates on this. In it, he argues that children of “nonworking parents” will be conditioned to have “an indolent and unproductive life:”
In some quarters, however, the American work ethic is waning. Some people devote themselves to find ways not to work. Some seem to take a perverse kind of pride in being slipshod or lackadaisical. In many cases, where our work culture has deteriorated, shortsighted government policies share a good part of the blame.
Welfare without work erodes the spirit and the sense of self-worth of the recipient. And it conditions the children of nonworking parents to an indolent and unproductive life. Hardworking parents raise hardworking kids; we should recognize that the opposite is also true. The influence of the work habits of our parents and other adults around us as we grow up has lasting impact.
While Romney’s sentiment is understandable and common among conservatives, it doesn’t fit easily with his view that all “all moms are working moms.” He’s quoted in Michael Kranish and Scott Helman’s book The Real Romney as saying motherhood is its own profession. “It’s one which is challenging, it’s demanding,” he said. “It requires being a psychologist, a psychoanalyst, an engineer, a teacher,” he added.
If nonworking mothers on welfare produce “indolent and unproductive” children, then why doesn’t the same hold true for other women?
No one is questioning the difficulty or value of motherhood, but many critics have pointed out that while Romney’s wife was able to devote herself full time to the work of the house, other women must juggle both home life and a job to supplement their partners’ incoming. Meanwhile, millions of other mothers — including a disproportionate number on welfare — have to do all of this on their own, without a partner.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:If nonworking mothers on welfare produce “indolent and unproductive” children, then why doesn’t the same hold true for other women?
I can't believe I'm actually hoping you're just spouting the party line, Ray....(sigh)
That question is ridiculous no matter how you spin it. If a single mother is raising her children and gettin welfare (a whole other discussion), she has two examples she can give her kids...do as much as you can to provide for yourself or live as a leach on society. That example is what they learn from as to how they fit into society...as people trying to be responsible for their choices or as victims that are 'better' than work.
That is the difference, Ray. A woman that CAN stay home because the Father figure (hopefully that actual father) is providing the work example is completely different than one who chooses to stay home because they choose to live off of the system.
Example is everything to a child.
Posted by raybond on :
We have a president now that was raised by a welfare mother. I don't think you make any sense.The only leaches on society are most of the major corporations and the wealthy.
Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor. A poor woman who has to stay at home and welfare is the only the option, is a pos. You are sick seeking. And that is why you guys are going to be. gone,the poles show it.
What you should do is serve your country and find out what it means to be an American the military would be a real good option for you. If not become a page and see what goes on.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by raybond: We have a president now that was raised by a welfare mother. I don't think you make any sense.The only leaches on society are most of the major corporations and the wealthy.
Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor. A poor woman who has to stay at home and welfare is the only the option, is a pos. You are sick seeking. And that is why you guys are going to be. gone,the poles show it.
What you should do is serve your country and find out what it means to be an American the military would be a real good option for you. If not become a page and see what goes on.
Welfare in indonesia must have been really good to go to elite schools:
t came to my interest when I found out that Barry, his childhood nickname, also attended a local school twice in an elite Jakarta region: SD Assisi and SD Besuki Menteng (SD or ‘Sekolah Dasar’ in Indonesian means elementary school). Even though rumors said that these two schools are a ‘base-camp’ for future Islamic fundamentalists, but in fact SD Assisi is a private Catholic while SD Besuki Menteng is a locally superior public school which accepts students from various religious backgrounds.
Soetoro managed to secure a job with Mobil Oil Co, as an executive in their government relations office. The family moved to a new house near Central Jakarta, and Obama continued his education in the nearby government-run Menteng State Elementary School for the next year and a half. Dunham also found a new job as the Director of the Indonesian Institute of Management, Education and Development.
A ten-year old Obama returned to Hawaii in the summer of 1971 into the eagerly awaiting embrace of his grandparents, Stanley and Madelyn. They enrolled him into the Punahou School, one of the top private schools in Hawaii, where he will stay until graduation eight years later. His schoolmates at the time included AOL founder Steve Case and Hollywood actress, Kelly Preston.
____________________________________________
So ray, you trying to make it seem like Obama grew up in the ghetto and a welfare mom just dont cut it. I know you dont want to hear it, but I believe 100% of Americans should pay taxes, and ALL loopholes should be closed.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Do you have children, Ray?
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this. I really want to know if you understand my point. Children don't care what they are told, only what they are shown. A parent can tell a child all they want not to start smoking, but if the parent smokes they are 2 to 4 times more likely to smoke themselves. They SEE the example and follow it.
If a parent teaches their children that living off of the system is "ok", then guess what the children learn? That working is 'hard', having kids they can't support to get welfare is 'easy'.
What is it that they say about men and rivers, Ray? They both follow the path of least resistance...
quote:Your telling me a lady that has the wealth to stay at home or work no matter what her decission is she is a women of honor.
I never said anything of the sort, Ray, and I think you know that. Please do limit your criticism to things I've actually said and I'll extend you the same courtesy.
There are plenty of 'rich' women who spend much of their time away from home while the nanny raises the kids. What do the children learn? That money\career\cause is more important to the parents than family. That's not exactly what I would called honorable.
Ann Romney, and I assume with Mitt's agreement, chose to devote her time to trying to raise her children properly regardless of 'missed opportunities' in the workforce.
When that's an option, I still hold it's the better choice. When it's not, then I personally believe that the parent(s) have a duty to teach their kids by their example that one should do all within one's power to care for one's self before you go with your hand out to Uncle Sam.
Posted by jordanreed on :
Ann Romney, and I assume with Mitt's agreement, chose to devote her time to trying to raise her children properly regardless of 'missed opportunities' in the workforce.
i have a unique perspective on this issue. my wife and i tried to use childcare and it was not working out very well. so i CHOSE to be self -employed at home moslty cuz my wife is one of the most efficiently organised people wyou'll ever meet, while i have made the poitn to you guys over and over agian that i can't even type and am scatterbrained... and Pagan, my wife got her PHD after our kids were all born and yes, i put her thru both grad programs.
nonetheless, my family eats home cooked bettter than the restaurtants in these here parts can provide... sadly that ian't saying much ocnsidering where we live, but i do alright.
if i could have changed one hting? it would have been that my kids didn't get to play with the other kids so much cuz they were either in day-care, or they were with their mommies, and i couldn't very well take the kids hang out with them for "palydates' too much without everybody deciding i was fathering their new little brothers and sisters...
to be honest? i know alotof people with jobs (really godd jobs) who don't work as hard a mothers do. furthtermore, i am now convinced that most jobs (and i use theterm JOB specifically as in working for someone elses profit, not as in your job is running company) are an escape from the real work of life. We in America are spoiled rotten, and most times, rising thru th efoodchain at work does not involve doing ANY MORE work, in fact it gets easier IMO because delegation of responsibility and authority are the key to success. Sure the hours get longer, but so does the ability to work form the golf course and other places...
i think every kid in HS should be forced to dig with a shovel and hoe enough ground to plant a subsistence garden for themselves and one other adult and one infant child. They shoul dhave to buthcer a chicken and a rabbit from live to ready for the table they would get a better perspective on why the should work so hard at work, whatever work they choose...
there is no work WORTH doing that is not WORTH a LIVING WAGE, period. call me socialist for that if you like, i'm still not wrong.
Posted by glassman on :
living wages include health care. and i mean every job worht doing, from changing diapers to filling bags full of fries and burgers or stock shelves at wally world and yes, even emptying garbage cans...
people (in general) are confused about priorities that much is clear
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?
I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.
Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this. I really want to know if you understand my point. Children don't care what they are told, only what they are shown. A parent can tell a child all they want not to start smoking, but if the parent smokes they are 2 to 4 times more likely to smoke themselves. They SEE the example and follow it.
If a parent teaches their children that living off of the system is "ok", then guess what the children learn? That working is 'hard', having kids they can't support to get welfare is 'easy'.
What is it that they say about men and rivers, Ray? They both follow the path of least resistance...
_________________________________________________
You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.
All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.
I am sure most of these kids and parents would rather be on welfare etc. than living in a nice house and having nice things not having to worry about money.
There are so many reasons why it is hard to break that cycle, one of which where you land when you have little money.
The idea that kids don't care what they are told seems to be giving parents and kids little credit for their families.
Do you have kids?
Do they not care what you tell them? Ouch!
-
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...
Do you have kids?
Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).
I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.
quote:You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.
All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting.
I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?
I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.
Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.
yeah, buit going to the doctor is not sutainable at teh jobs i mentioned. either out of pocket of thru co. insurance,
and?
you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.
fact? it's cheaper to give them a minimal subsistence that to subjecxt ehir lack of workk ethic on those of actually trying to get somethng done in this world.. i been around block enought o see this proven many times over in both private biz and govt institutions.
Posted by glassman on :
as to "breaking the cycle"?
i can show you plenty of historical examples of failed attempts to break these cycles. And i can show you some successful ones too...
the methods of "anglisizing" the "native American Indians" were considerd to be barbaric. The successful ones all included murdering all kids and particularly all males over 8 years old... That was done as a matter of course in ancient times. And it w still being done in the SE asia when we were there by other groups... Mao did it. The Soviets did it..
The welfare system we have today was designed to proect the wealthy as much as as the poor. The welthy cannot fleece the flock if the flock has no wool Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:
IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...
Do you have kids?
Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).
I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.
All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.
--------------------
I stuck to exactly what you said: "Children don't care what they are told"
Your making the assumption that what you see in your small kids is what they will follow when they are older'
That should make it easy for you just do the right thing and your kids will follow exactly what you do... good luck on that idea
Again i will state you make it sound like it is an easy thing to break out of, where in fact we see more and more people in this situation because of the economy and lack of jobs.
This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.
=
- -
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Originally Posted By SeekingFreedom:
IWish, I'll ask you the same question before I answer yours...
Do you have kids?
Yes, I have two small children and I hope that what I tell them has an impact. However, while I'm still learning, (hopefully that never stops) I have learned that words mean less than actions.My children are little mirrors of my wife and I. Our habits, opinions, values, and yes, flaws, are reflected in their lives because we are their models of what is 'right' in life. If my WORDS are not in harmony with my ACTIONS, it is my actions that my kids will pick up on...along with the belief that they don't need to be in harmony (which is sadly becoming more common in our society).
I do have to call you out on one point, IWish, as I did with Ray...please stick to what I've said...not what you think I implied.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You make it sound like it's an easy cycle to break.
All you got to do is want to make more money walk out the door and the job of your dreams is waiting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said it was easy...that's the whole point of what I said. It IS hard...which is why so many people don't break the cycle and remain in poverty generation after generation. The 'easy' path is to passively accept one's current circumstances as unchangeable, that one is powerless to better one's fate. That is the easy path, IWish.
--------------------
I stuck to exactly what you said: "Children don't care what they are told"
Your making the assumption that what you see in your small kids is what they will follow when they are older'
That should make it easy for you just do the right thing and your kids will follow exactly what you do... good luck on that idea
Again i will state you make it sound like it is an easy thing to break out of, where in fact we see more and more people in this situation because of the economy and lack of jobs.
This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.
=
- -
It is very obvious he has no children. Otherwise he would not make those blanket statements about children.
Posted by raybond on :
Do you have children, Ray
-------------------------------------------------
I sure do have childern I have a son who is a major in the airforce and getting ready to retire.
Now one of his friends was the product of a welfare mom all of her children are doing well also. You know why the children are doing well because the goverment stepped in and kept a roof over her head and food on the table.
The only people that did not like that idea were selfish weaklings full of envy. Keep your smart remarks to yourself.
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
Speaking of wages, Subway in San Fran cant even offer their $5 footlong deal like they do everywhere else because of the cost of business in San Fran (their own minimum wage that is set). MSNBC actually covered that story.
Dont forget that is the city that was screwing with Mcdonalds because they put toys in happy meals. The "progressives" were shot down by a judge who thankfully used common sense in the ruling.
"McDonald's was accused of unfairly using toys to lure children into its restaurants. The proposed class-action lawsuit in a California state court so ught to stop the company from using free toys to promote its Happy Meals in the Golden State."
It must be awfull to feel like you can never get out of the situation (little money) you are in, let alone feeling your kids have a slim chance of getting out of it.
If you try to work the pay is small in most cases where there is less education than a college degree and at the same time having to pay someone to watch your kids, which eats up most of the wage you get.
The job market sucks in most cases today with many sucking employers.
Now the trend seems to be that if you don't have a job they won't even give you a chance.
My son has been interviewing, looking for a better job although he has a good employer, which is unusual these days.
After his last interviews with one company he was offered the job, even though the interviews were strange and the guy was a jerk.
I told him to forget the job if that was the impression he was getting.
So after my suggestion he turned them down, but they kept bugging him and conviced him the company was great.
He finally accepted the offer and told them he would give notice on Wednesday to the company that he worked with.
On Thursday the new employer called and wanted to have a meeting the next day with him,this was not planned, so he pushed the woman that was calling him enough to find out what this was about.
She told him that the salary they had told him was not the salary they pay their salesman,It was a third less.
So actually he would be making quite a bit less than his present job.
Fortuantly for him he did not give notice on that Wednesday he decided to wait till Friday.
He told them to jump.
This is happening more and more and all kinds of different versions of this.
-
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.
I see your point, Glass, I do. However, I would ask how much good we are doing for those children by incentivizing a parental lifestyle (rolemodel) that encourages sloth and irresponsibility? Understand, I'm not encouraging the state taking the children away from their parents (unless it's a really bad situation), but supporting generation after generation of the population on the backs of fewer and fewer producers is not sustainable.
I don't claim to have the answer, but I sure as hell know that our current system can't last as it is.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
(sigh)
Have you ever had the feeling that the person you're talking to isn't talking about the same thing you are?
Ray, do you really think that parental example has no bearing the development of their children?
IWish,
quote:This situation (lack of money) has been presented to many new people that had parents that were never in this situaion and had nothing to do with a so called role model.
No arguement on that point. However, I would pose that how they handle the new situation is directly linked to the examples they got from how their parents dealt with stressful situations.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:you cannot tell women they are just outaluck if they get pregnant. this is where the "rightwingers" is hypocritical as it gets. A child born to a teen mother is still "pure and innocent" and has the right to be protected by society until it reaches it's majority. what parents it has are not it's fault, nor is it to blame for their actions. Lazy parents? they are gong to be lazy at work or at home, it don't matter wher they are.
I see your point, Glass, I do. However, I would ask how much good we are doing for those children by incentivizing a parental lifestyle (rolemodel) that encourages sloth and irresponsibility? Understand, I'm not encouraging the state taking the children away from their parents (unless it's a really bad situation), but supporting generation after generation of the population on the backs of fewer and fewer producers is not sustainable.
I don't claim to have the answer, but I sure as hell know that our current system can't last as it is.
SF, i understand you want the best for people, i really do..
i thihnk we see alot fo the same problems int he world and we have differnt way of dealing with them.
here's the problem,
"we" have NOT been doing this:"encourages sloth and irresponsibility".
dude, i used to show up at these peoples trailers adn take their cars. cars that didn't run anymore, that they paid too much for, and had 25% interest rates on.
get what i am telling you? go to a grocery store on the poor side of town and actually look at eh prices...
you live in Utah right? in some ways it IS a form of utopia. been there, liked alot about it, but i also have my own ideas about how to enjoy life, and that ain't there... SoCali, too much hedonism.. i'm somehwere in between..
in any case, you should know by now that the economic system we enjoy is not set up to reward hard work like everybody says. hard work is scrubbing toilets, not shuffling papers and talking on the phone all day. think about it.
Posted by raybond on :
Ray, do you really think that parental example has no bearing the development of their children? - ------------------------------------------------ When you get done using your statements as camo for your right wing agenda maybe we can talk. Children need support wether they have both parents or not and it is better to have a mom stay at home with her children. If the father is gone he is gone,taking away the mother and childrens support is the not right thing to do.
Now go join the army and be an american.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
(sigh)
Good to see some things haven't changed in two years, Ray.
Have a good day.
Posted by glassman on :
here's a crappy situation. the irony of complainng about about lazy people getting rich should not be lost here.
suppose you got in with Madoff long ago. Rigt at the beginning when he MAY have been honest. You were fairly young too. One day you have a chance to buy your dream home, and even tho you know you shouldn't you cash out of Madoffs (unbeknownst to you) ponzi scheme. Now you have to pay back the ill-gotten gains you didn't even know you had and you never even had ill-intent. Furhtermore, you are upside-down on your house mortgage oso you cannot sellit to recoup the money, and you are now almost old enough to retire, but your retirement is being attached by the people "recovering" the Ponzi money.
This is happening to somebody right now.
Posted by buckstalker on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?
I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.
Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.
OK, this will be easy...
you are a heartless b@stard and YES...you are wrong...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by buckstalker:
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: The question is, and has always been, Glass, WHAT constitutes a 'living wage'? What lifestyle (and for how many people) should a minimum wage job cover?
I would submit that minimum wage is meant to sustain only ONE person at a minimal lifestyle, not a family at 'middle class' levels.
Call me a heartless b@astard for that if you like, I'm still not wrong.
OK, this will be easy...
you are a heartless b@stard and YES...you are wrong...
he's not wrong if he is the Chinese Premiere Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
LOL, then 'straighten' me out Buck.
What should a 'minimum' wage cover?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: LOL, then 'straighten' me out Buck.
What should a 'minimum' wage cover?
you do understand that you basically are philosphically dictating who has the right to reproduce right?
face it, somebody has got to take out the trash, and they don't need a college degree to do it. the "right wingers" like Santorum and Palin have spent alot of time talking about raising kids the medical community wanted to "terminate" ..
100 yrs ago and before? it wasn't even an option. termination was done by the midwife. in your philosphy, a broom pusher, a tomato picker and toilet scrubber have no right to reproduce, yet you need all three of them to live and do your CEO job... makes no sense to me. and quite frankly it is why the right wing is psychotic.
talk to me about 2nd amnement rights? i'll be on th e"right" again, th erest of this sutff is stoopid.
Posted by raybond on :
Seeking are you employed ? just wondering or do you just live in a make pretend world. I may be wrong have you ever done anything or do you just read stories about other people that get things done.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Ray, with all due respect...seek professional help.
Clergy, psychiatrist, yoga instructor, whatever.
You seem to have far too much anger in you (at your age ) for it to be healthy.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Ray, with all due respect...seek professional help.
Clergy, psychiatrist, yoga instructor, whatever.
You seem to have far too much anger in you (at your age ) for it to be healthy.
What is Ray's age? Since you apparently know...otherwise...your last post is idiotic. Speak up or admit your FOS.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
LOL, Pagan, you may want to head my last advice too apparently.
Ray has posted that he is recently retired and moved to Cali (as of my last understanding). So I think I can give a pretty accurate range of 50-60. How much narrower would you like?
quote:I sure do have childern I have a son who is a major in the airforce and getting ready to retire
How many years of service does it take to retire, Pagan? 20? 25? Unless Ray had his son when he was 14 I think my guess is probably pretty good.
Think before you post, P. You look less foolish when you do.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:you do understand that you basically are philosphically dictating who has the right to reproduce right?
And that, Glass, is why this conversation can't move forward with any kind of 'good will'. Jumping from my question of "What should a 'minimum' wage cover?" (which noone has been kind enough to answer) to "in your philosphy, a broom pusher, a tomato picker and toilet scrubber have no right to reproduce," completely clouds the issue with emotional responses and eliminate the ability to rationally discuss the issue.
Unless someone feels up to answering my question of what lifestyle a 'no skill, no experience' job (which is what I feel warrants minimum wage) should be able to support, I think this thread is finished for me.
Posted by glassman on :
[completely clouds the issue with emotional responses and eliminate the ability to rationally discuss the issue.
LOL, funny way to concede defeat but i'll accept it, better luck next time...
lemme know when you solve that problem of what to do with the bottom 30% of IQ's... Eugenics? infanticide? you can't have acces to birth control and you cannever have kids, cuz you aren't "college material"... that's where you ultra-right wingers are taking this.
Santorum? he has helath care provided bythe Tax payer for life so he can actually afford the "emotional drama" that i bring up..
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Call it what you will, Glass.
Answer my question and I'll answer yours.
Posted by buckstalker on :
He did answer your question SF and so will I...
A "living" or minimum wage should provide an individual enough income to get married, have a couple of kids, provide a home, food, education, a means of transportation and health care for his/her family...plus enough left over to save for retirement...
Those are all the things you want for yourself are they not?
If yes, then answer these questions...
Why shouldn't an individual that doesn't have the ability either intellectually or financially to get a college degree, be afforded the same quality of life as you, if they are willing to work for it?
Why should they only be entitled to earn enough to take care of themselves and NOT have a family?
Do you view yourself as "superior" to those less fortunate/educated?
This is the main reason I am ashamed of the republican party...
They don't want people to collect welfare, and at the same time, they don't want to pay them chit if they are uneducated and willing to work...
I'll bet 10 to 1 that you are OK with people making millions of dollars a year playing basketball or baseball though, aren't you?
Posted by buckstalker on :
Divided we fall...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Call it what you will, Glass.
Answer my question and I'll answer yours.
i assume you mean this?
Unless someone feels up to answering my question of what lifestyle a 'no skill, no experience' job (which is what I feel warrants minimum wage) should be able to support, I think this thread is finished for me.
i already did. you ignored it. maybe i did it too fast.
health care is not a luxury item. lets go back to the cholera/dysentary issue. you don't want poor mountaineers barely keeping htier family fed crapping in your stream on ht emountains side before it rolls under the walls of your family compound on the lake front right?
it ain't complicated, Aristotl;e lecture Alexander about it. Good health is not "for sale". Aristotle literally told Al;eaxnder not let his troops chit inthe thier drinknig water, and that was and still is a part of Natiaonl Defense (even natioanl offense ) it's embodied by the phrase they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. you don't crap in my water, i won't crap in yours. half the health cares of the world were solved by this, and the EPA is hter to make sure we don't fall backwards.
when you get this worked out logically? i'll be happy to continue this discussion with you
Posted by glassman on :
all those "sanitation workers" people look right past and don't give the time of day (or a living wage) are much more important to the overall population helath than the local pill peddler er i mean Doctor.
all those minimum wage workers at resraurants and walmarts across the country that don't "deserve" living wage? my wife would call them Vectors
Vector (biology)
Traditionally in medicine, a vector is an organism that does not cause disease itself but which spreads infection by conveying pathogens from one host to another.
Species of mosquito, for example, serve as vectors for the deadly disease Malaria.
am i coming thru 5X5 yet? it is in YOUR best interest to see natioanl health care of superior quality. Do NOT eat a fast food joints that have unheathy employees, or buy stuff for your kids to play with that were made in China with lead paint and then stcoked on the shelf by SICK people.. am i coming thru 5X5 yet?
employers could FORGET about th epaperwork and the sttress of trying to get it for thier employees, and the one who want to offer more? should be able to, Hillary propsed cirminalising that and that is Dictatorial.
Posted by glassman on :
interesting note, wikipedia is missing an article on the term "refractory" as it pertains to biological vectors. there should be an article dscribing that a parasitoid cycle or a disease transmision being stopped by human action such as vaccination would be considered a "refractory" act
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Thanks, Buck, that was exactly what I was looking for...not piece meal "this should be included" stuff (sorry, Glass, that's all your answer about the health care was)...but an actual list of what economic 'rights' a minimum wage job should provide.
Now, two follow up questions about your list:
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
As to your basket ball\baseball players question? No, both sports suck and they shouldn't be paid anything...
Seriously, you'd win that bet easily. As a capitalist, I believe that people should be paid whatever the market will bear. If there is someone willing to pay them that much to do what they do (as long as it's legal), then by all means may they enjoy the fruits of their 'labors'.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
Glass, I really don't think you and I are on the same page here. When Obamacare was first passed, I stated that I wasn't opposed to providing health care for the poor. What I was opposed to is HOW the admin was going about providing it. I totally understand your points about vectors (covered in my Microbiology course, but thanks for the refresher) and the cost\benefit to having healthy service workers. I still believe that the only way to fix that problem is to attack the cost drivers and bring it within reach of the average\economically challenged members of our society. Paying a high cost for healthcare AND adding more people to the lines doesn't help us long term.
Posted by glassman on :
but, we are discussing what a living wage is, and more importanlty what cosntitutes "lazy" behaviour..
in Mitt's world? lazy means not well off.
i gots news ferya, the poor are mostly all working poor.
the facts is that there will always be 30% of the loest IQ's no matter how high our average IQ's become, get my piint? ther will also always be tomatoes and apples to be picked, toilets to be scrubbed dn floors to be swept...
maybe someday? those jobs will doneby robots, then the lowest on totem will be repairmen of th erobots...
there is always a base to the pyramid in Captialism...
Civil War Era Gilded Age Download Audio/Video About Us/Contact Us Excerpt of Lincoln's Speech on Free Labor vs. Slave Labor
From: Lincoln, Abraham. "Annual Address Before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society, at Milwaukee, Wisconsin, September 30, 1859." The Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 5. Eds. John G. Nicolay and John Hay. New York: Francis D. Tandy Company, 1894.
The world is agreed that labor is the source from which human wants are mainly supplied. There is no dispute upon this point. From this point, however, men immediately diverge. Much disputation is maintained as to the best way of applying and controlling the labor element. By some it is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital – that nobody labors, unless somebody else owning capital, somehow, by the use of it, induces him to do it. Having assumed this, they proceed to consider whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their [p. 248] own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it, without their consent. Having proceeded so far, they naturally conclude that all laborers are naturally either hired laborers or slaves. They further assume that whoever is once a hired laborer, is fatally fixed in that condition for life; and thence again, that his condition is as bad as, or worse than, that of a slave. This is the "mud-sill" theory. But another class of reasoners hold the opinion that there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed; that there is no such thing as a free man being fatally fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer; that both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them groundless. They hold that labor is prior to, and independent of, capital; that, in fact, capital is the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed; that labor can exist without capital, but that capital could never have existed without labor. Hence they hold that labor is the superior – greatly the superior – of capital. They do not deny that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital. The error, as they hold, is in assuming that the whole labor of the world exists within that relation. A few men own capital; and that few avoid labor themselves, and with [p. 249] their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class – neither work for others, nor have others working for them. Even in all our slave States except South Carolina, a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters. In these free States, a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families – wives, sons and daughters – work for themselves, on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand, nor of hirelings or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital – that is, labor with their own hands and also buy slaves or hire free men to labor for them; but this is only a mixed, and not a distinct, class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class. Again, as has already been said, the opponents of the "mud-sill" theory insist that there is not, of necessity, any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. There is demonstration for saying this. Many independent men in this assembly doubtless a few years ago were hired laborers. And their case is almost, if not quite, the general rule. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world [p. 250] labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This, say its advocates, is free labor – the just, and generous, and prosperous system, which opens the way for all, gives hope to all, and energy, and progress, and improvement of condition to all. If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune. I have said this much about the elements of labor generally, as introductory to the consideration of a new phase which that element is in process of assuming. The old general rule was that educated people did not perform manual labor. They managed to eat their bread, leaving the toil of producing it to the uneducated. This was not an insupportable evil to the working bees, so long as the class of drones remained very small. But now, especially in these free States, nearly all are educated – quite too nearly all to leave the labor of the uneducated in any wise adequate to the support of the whole. It follows from this that henceforth educated people must labor.
all that from a guy with almnost no formal ejemakashun... hmmm....
Posted by buckstalker on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Thanks, Buck, that was exactly what I was looking for...not piece meal "this should be included" stuff (sorry, Glass, that's all your answer about the health care was)...but an actual list of what economic 'rights' a minimum wage job should provide.
Now, two follow up questions about your list:
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
As to your basket ball\baseball players question? No, both sports suck and they shouldn't be paid anything...
Seriously, you'd win that bet easily. As a capitalist, I believe that people should be paid whatever the market will bear. If there is someone willing to pay them that much to do what they do (as long as it's legal), then by all means may they enjoy the fruits of their 'labors'.
You are avoiding the 4 questions I asked you, and from your previous posts, you frown on that...
Please answer my questions first...
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:If yes, then answer these questions...
To answer these questions I have to ask a couple:
Do you view a house as a 'right' or an accomplishment?
Do you view transportation (I assume you mean a car and not public transporation) as a 'right' or as an accomplishment (especially a new year model)?
Do you view economic stablity in retirement years as a 'right' or as a consequence of years of financial restraint\responsibility?
Depending on how you answer these questions yourself, Buck, I think you're going to find my answers more in line with your "Heartless B@astard" comment.
First off, yes, I do want those things for me and my family. No, I do not expect them to be given to me. I expect to have to work for them and if I want to have 'better than average' in all the stated categories I FULLY expect that I will have to put forth 'better than average' efforts to achieve them.
quote:Why shouldn't an individual that doesn't have the ability either intellectually or financially to get a college degree, be afforded the same quality of life as you, if they are willing to work for it?
Because from a societal point of view they do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion. Supply and demand applies to labor, Buck. If someone can be easily replaced at a lower cost to the employer then the corresponding 'value' of that labor is lower than one that is harder to replace. Remember, college education is not the only form\manner to acquire 'value' to an employer. Years of service\honing skills is just as valuable (perhaps even more so) than a degree. It is the composite value that the individual has for the employer that dictates his\her wages.
quote:Why should they only be entitled to earn enough to take care of themselves and NOT have a family?
Mostly answered above, but with one other point. They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
quote:Do you view yourself as "superior" to those less fortunate/educated?
From a 'everyone has value' or a spritual 'great is the worth of souls in the eyes of God' aspect, of course not. As Glass posted about the children being innocent of their parents actions, I feel that all people are a valuable font of potential.
That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
Posted by glassman on :
They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
LOL, straw man argument.
nobody is suggesting they are entitled to maseratis adn champagne, or be handed anything for free.
they are endowed byt heir Creator with certain blah blah tho...
Posted by glassman on :
i'll try to back off on this a little, i am passioante about this simply cuz i belive that our Great Nation is like a chain, only as good as th eweakest link...
Buck and i (seem to me) to agree on this we shouldn't gang up and confuse the issues.. it is an inpportant issue and will be fought out in this campaign season as hard as it has ever been sincce Lincoln got elected.. it will be dirty and nashty
Posted by glassman on :
That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
sorry, i just can't resit this one...
what are Donnie and Marie actually worth? Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:sorry, i just can't resit this one...
what are Donnie and Marie actually worth?
Prolly less than they got paid.
But again, as a Capitalist, if someone is willing to pay them that much for legal 'labor', then more power to them.
Posted by buckstalker on :
First off, I view a home, transportation, health care and economic stability in retirement years as NECESSITIES for a healthy society. ANYONE willing to work hard and do the best that they can do with the facilities that they have, should have the right to earn enough to pay for those NECESSITIES...
As far as YOUR societal point of view that non college grads do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion, is where you lose me...sounds like you consider yourself SUPERIOR to others less fortunate than yourself...The FACT remains that not everyone has the ability financially/intellectually to get a college degree.
Also I am all for more knowledge/skill = higher pay...I thought we were talking about minimum/living wage?
I believe that ANYONE in this country that is willing to work is entitled to a "living" wage...
Lastly in response to YOUR societal point of view that:
"some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is."
Sounds to me that you believe that someone playing basketball or "pretending" to be someone they are not, is far more valuable to society than someone attempting to find a cure for cancer.
The difference between you and I SF...
I am a capitalist with a sense of community and you are a capitalist that views yourself superior to others less fortunate than yourself...
That makes you a cold-hearted b@stard
Posted by buckstalker on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: That being said, from a societal standpoint, some people's contributions to the whole are more valuable than others. That is why there are different pay grades\scales for different jobs. It is not the vaule of the person 'as a person' that is being 'judged', it is the value of their labors that is.
sorry, i just can't resit this one...
what are Donnie and Marie actually worth?
Minimum wage...
Posted by raybond on :
posted 19-04-2012 11:12 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They aren't 'entitled' to anything in my opinion. Noone is. You can 'earn' whatever you're willing to labor for. If you wish to have a family, then find work that will allow it. Don't just expect everyone to hand you what you feel you 'deserve'.
-------------------------------------------------
The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
In primitive societies there is a miniumum wage in that every body is clothed,shelterd,and eats. And everybody does what they can do. With our native Americans the top hunterproducer, had the honor of providing more for the whole tribe this was his reward.
My whole point is that a person that works 48 hours a week and can't feed his family is a victim not a bum and living in a criminal society.That paid people a super good wage like me to contain its mistakes and be schooled in the art of doing it.
As far as there is jobs that don't pay a living standard there will be people that have to do them,thus there will be people denided the happiness of a full life or there right to the persuit of happiness.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:As far as YOUR societal point of view that non college grads do not contribute to the whole in equal proportion, is where you lose me...sounds like you consider yourself SUPERIOR to others less fortunate than yourself...The FACT remains that not everyone has the ability financially/intellectually to get a college degree.
Did you read my post, Buck, nowhere did I state that college education is the defining factor of 'value'.
Years of service\honing skills is just as valuable (perhaps even more so) than a degree. It is the composite value that the individual has for the employer that dictates his\her wages.
Lack of college WITH lack of marketable skills WITH lack of experience\ability does cause one's labor to be less 'valuable' than someone who has one or more of the above.
quote:Sounds to me that you believe that someone playing basketball or "pretending" to be someone they are not, is far more valuable to society than someone attempting to find a cure for cancer.
To me, no, they aren't. To someone else willing to pay them? Perhaps. It's not MY place to tell an employer what he can or can't pay someone.
Now, unless I've missed one of your questions, kindly answer mine.
1) So any high school drop out should recieve $50k (if that is what it takes to provide the items on your list) a year bagging groceries as a first job so that we are 'humane' to him\her?
and
2) What is to say that when we do raise everyone's wages to that level that supply\demand doesn't drive the prices of said items beyond it so that we're back to square one?
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
Minimum wage is a worthless metric, Glass. Everytime it's raised, those who feel they are 'worth' more than minimum wage fight for a pay increase as well. (See Minimum Wage Plus contracts used by Unions) As everyone's pay goes up, so must the cost of what is produced by the company to pay for the increased outlay. Increased prices mean less of an actual 'effective' raise. Additionally, when the consumer (in general) has more money to spend, producers charge more (again, supply and demand). Raising wages (through mandates) is not a silver bullet for poverty.
This is why we will always have poverty. 'Poor' is a relative term (as you alluded to above). What we consider poor here is middle to upper class in most of the world (speaking in terms of geographical space). As you raise the standard of living accross the board (which we argueably already have the highest standards existant) what is considered 'poor' simply changes.
It doesn't go away.
Posted by Pagan on :
SF,
Do you actually work for a living...or are you just a college student in perpetuity? Not picking a fight, just curious because of your stated views.
Posted by raybond on :
Hey seeking do you get a job yet? Aren't your parents getting ready to cut the cord? Have they spoke to you?
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:The above statement is proof of why we need a good minimum wage. There is just work that does not pay a wage that can support what society considers a normal life for humans. That in it self is a crime. And the cost to society is very high.
Minimum wage is a worthless metric, Glass. Everytime it's raised, those who feel they are 'worth' more than minimum wage fight for a pay increase as well. (See Minimum Wage Plus contracts used by Unions) As everyone's pay goes up, so must the cost of what is produced by the company to pay for the increased outlay. Increased prices mean less of an actual 'effective' raise. Additionally, when the consumer (in general) has more money to spend, producers charge more (again, supply and demand). Raising wages (through mandates) is not a silver bullet for poverty.
This is why we will always have poverty. 'Poor' is a relative term (as you alluded to above). What we consider poor here is middle to upper class in most of the world (speaking in terms of geographical space). As you raise the standard of living accross the board (which we argueably already have the highest standards existant) what is considered 'poor' simply changes.
It doesn't go away.
fisrt off? you were answering ray not me. I'm not really "for" a "minimum wage" cuz i do understand that it tends to drive others to demand more, that said, we cannot expect peopl e to keep our toilets clean for a non-living wage, so we import illegal labor to fill the jobs "none wants" LOL.. it's a joke right? i mean big biz wants the illegals for keeping overall wages down and the people who really want them gone are the poor working slobs that find their wages shut down by it...
Captialism really is a pyramid, i agree, but the base must be strong or the capstone will not sty up.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: SF,
Do you actually work for a living...or are you just a college student in perpetuity? Not picking a fight, just curious because of your stated views.
I've worked for quite some time, P. After I returned from Brazil I've been out on my own, bought and sold several houses, gotten married, two kids, and just recently started going to college because my employer has a tuition reimbursement policy that makes it within my reach. Full time work, full time school and (I try) full time father\husband.
Just FYI, neither my father nor my father in law are college educated, yet both make really good money because they've applied themselves to their chosen fields. College isn't the ONLY path, but it surely helps.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:fisrt off? you were answering ray not me.
True enough. My bad. Fingers type faster than the brain sometimes.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom:
quote:Originally posted by Pagan: SF,
Do you actually work for a living...or are you just a college student in perpetuity? Not picking a fight, just curious because of your stated views.
I've worked for quite some time, P. After I returned from Brazil I've been out on my own, bought and sold several houses, gotten married, two kids, and just recently started going to college because my employer has a tuition reimbursement policy that makes it within my reach. Full time work, full time school and (I try) full time father\husband.
Just FYI, neither my father nor my father in law are college educated, yet both make really good money because they've applied themselves to their chosen fields. College isn't the ONLY path, but it surely helps.
Interesting. So "after you returned from Brazil", you are now out on your own? I guess you mean no longer living at your parents residence? What is your profession if you don't mind me asking? You seem very book/theory smart.....but lacking in real world applications of the views you espouse. Again, not picking a fight, just trying to get a handle on your thinking.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
LOL, I'll play along.
I have not lived with my parents for over 15 years. I've worked various jobs including (but not limited to! lol) sheet metal fab, construction, landscaping, retail, janatorial, internet tech support, real estate and production. Currently I'm the technical specialist/front line sup. for a medical device production line. I keep the robots and machines running while trying to keep the people running them from killing themselves/eachother.
How about yourself, P? Care to give us a dossiere?
Posted by raybond on :
I don't think you tell the truth seeking I did not answer pagan nor did he answer me. The only thing you most likley done is dumpster diving. As for your parents I don't want to know what they do most likley they are nice folks.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
?
I have no idea what you're talking about, Ray.
Again. Get professtional help.
Posted by Pagan on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: LOL, I'll play along.
I have not lived with my parents for over 15 years. I've worked various jobs including (but not limited to! lol) sheet metal fab, construction, landscaping, retail, janatorial, internet tech support, real estate and production. Currently I'm the technical specialist/front line sup. for a medical device production line. I keep the robots and machines running while trying to keep the people running them from killing themselves/eachother.
How about yourself, P? Care to give us a dossiere?
I don't believe a word of that. Your a professional student. You can tell by the way you post. Trolling for arguments/conversation. have fun with that.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:I don't believe a word of that. Your a professional student. You can tell by the way you post. Trolling for arguments/conversation. have fun with that.
ROFLMAO, and this is the childish stuff that keeps me ignoring you and Ray.
Internet ettiquette, P, don't ask for personal information. One, they (I) can't prove a word of it, and you can't disprove it.
Calling someone a liar without proof is not exactly mature or endearing.
Posted by raybond on :
Is this all I have to do to get you to ignore me?
Posted by CashCowMoo on :
quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: ?
I have no idea what you're talking about, Ray.
Again. Get professtional help.
He is too far gone and bitter to seek it.
Posted by raybond on :
Seeking I have just profiled you and it ain't nice I think you need help I am very good at this sort of thing you poor young man. I am not going to bother you anymore ifyou like you can put me on ignore. I hope you get better soon.
Posted by SeekingFreedom on :
quote:Originally posted by raybond: Seeking I have just profiled you...I am very good at this sort of thing
I have zero doubt that you believe that to be true, Ray.
Go spend some time with the grandkids, man.
Time is precious.
Posted by poorman on :
With our native Americans the top hunterproducer, had the honor of providing more for the whole tribe this was his reward.
This is called socialism. Great in theory, doesn't work in practical application. We do it in our family life all the time.
Some people get paid min wage due to their on mistakes. IE dropped out of school, drug abuse, ect. Some due to no fault of their own. Hard work does not always pay off.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by poorman: With our native Americans the top hunterproducer, had the honor of providing more for the whole tribe this was his reward.
This is called socialism. Great in theory, doesn't work in practical application. We do it in our family life all the time.
Some people get paid min wage due to their on mistakes. IE dropped out of school, drug abuse, ect. Some due to no fault of their own. Hard work does not always pay off.
actually my life experince is that most "succesful" people are experts at white collar crime which we barely recognise as criminal. That's why our jails are full of non-whites. You can rob thousands by way of a peice of paper or now a simple electronic transmission and people respond with something like" dummies get what they deserve" but if you walk inot a bank with gun and take 4000 (i think that's the average take) you get 20 to life..
to my way of thinking? it's more honest to take money with a gun... don't assume i am saying either is ok, just making a comparison...
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) it's embodied by the phrase they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. you don't crap in my water, i won't crap in yours. half the health cares of the world were solved by this, and the EPA is hter to make sure we don't fall backwards.![[BadOne]](graemlins/headbash.gif)
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