This is topic The National Academy of Sciences says that creationism must not be taught in schools. in forum Off-Topic Post, Non Stock Talk at Allstocks.com's Bulletin Board.
"The U.S. National Academy of Sciences on Thursday issued a spirited defense of evolution as the bedrock principle of modern biology, arguing that it, not creationism, must be taught in public school science classes."
"Creationism, based on the explanation offered in the Bible, and the related idea of "intelligent design" are not science and, as such, should not be taught in public school science classrooms, according to the report."
"A judge in Dover, Pennsylvania ruled in 2005 that the teaching of intelligent design violated the U.S. Constitution, which requires a separation of church and state, because it is based on religious conviction, not science."
it should be taught in philosophy class, where it belongs...
creationism strictly interpreted by the bible is obviously not correct, but there are some good reasons to examine the possibilities..
and i don't mean the "too complicated" theory.. i mean the against all odds theories...
if you strictly believe in creationism as defined in the Bible? then you believe God created fleas and screwworm flies. if i showed you a picture of an advanced screw worm fly infestation you'd prolly puke... they are raised in captivity on blood pudding, i've been in abatoirrs that smelled better
these are bedbugs:
did God put them here to punish babies for their parents neglect?
Posted by T e x on :
well, presumably "bedbugs" pre-date beds...
Posted by glassman on :
LOL, yeah they prolly used to be food.. easy to catch if you are alight sleeper Posted by Ace of Spades on :
So much I would love to say but....
Read every thread at allstocks that has to do with religion...and you will see they go no where!!!!!
Especially with Bdgee in it...no offense Bro but you gots to agree Posted by Hannibull on :
creationism is laughable and should never be taught in a SCIENCE class, public or private school, doesn't matter. The judge in PA is absolutely correct in his ruling.
Posted by bdgee on :
Religion is ok, yours, mine, his, or hers, whatever it is, but never never never never never in any political consideration. Any political or legal consideration of any aspect of religion or it's trappings must be disallowed and that includes those that can't or won't abide by that principle.
"Congress shall make NO law respecting....." and that includes the sates, the counties, the cities and every other legal governmental body or position that has any power to issue any form of legally binding pronouncement, opinion, recognition, or justification.
Anything respecting religion, other than respecting its existence, entirely separate and apart from anything that may be political or involve any decision of any political body is un-Constitutional.
And that is the sum and total of it all.
Posted by Lockman on :
I have no problem not teaching creationism in schools, but athesist views should also be band.
To exclude creationism as a possiblity should not be presented as the non-existance of GOD. The miracle of evolution has Gods fingerprints all over it. Just my belief so all you non-believers don't get yourselves all worked up.
Posted by Hannibull on :
but that is YOUR belief if I believed a green monster with 12 legs put us all on this earth as what we are today, should it also be considered a possibility in a science class? Why just your belief?
My point is that religious beliefs do not belong in a science class, it's normalizing crazy ideas (to non-believers) and trying to pass it as fact without ANY scientific backup
Posted by bdgee on :
lockman,
Your bigotry and ignorance are showing.
The Constitution specifically bans the legal respecting any religious affiliation or religion. Thus, even one who chooses to be so simple minded as you must be able to understand that banning any belief (religion is nothing more than belief) amounts to a law respectinmg religion a religion, be that religion yours or anyone else's.
There is no scientifif effort "To exclude creationism as a possiblity" and you need to stop that asinine and idiotic rhetoric.
You can believe whatever you choose, so long as your belief doesn't include requiring a belief or teaching, by law, that religion is fact or that some religious belief (in the present case, that BS called creationoism)is science or scientifically valid or justifiable.
Moreover, get it through your head that no one has proposed teaching that there is no god, just that teaching that there is a god or even more than one god is a matter of teaching a religious belief and is thereby un-Constitutional. Thus, your inappropriate supposition that anyone wants to teach atheism is vulgar and childish and insulting.
It is you that appears to be "all worked up."
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Your bigotry and ignorance are showing.
Obviously, evolution hasn't come too far. You're stuck with 3rd grade insults and bullying!
I think evolution is just a big hoax. I'm sure that the bdgees of the past were absolutely certain that the earth was flat also, and we know how that turned out!
Kinda like "global warming", which the wacko left has now changed to "climate change". Once global warming didn't fly, they changed it to "climate change", so that they could be right regardless of what the temperature does. Temperature goes up - CLIMATE CHANGE. Temperature goes down - CLIMATE CHANGE. You see the wacko left of the 70s who predicted the next ice age were right, they just used the wrong term. They meant to say CLIMATE CHANGE.
Mike
Posted by jordanreed on :
so...the wacko left believes in evolution and the sane right believes in creationism?...THATS what you believe?...
Posted by jordanreed on :
science is a hoax
Posted by jordanreed on :
common sense makes no sense
Posted by jordanreed on :
I believe in the power of love, y'all...
teach that!
Posted by jordanreed on :
P.M. says..
"Obviously, evolution hasn't come too far."
Looking in the mirror , again?
Posted by bdgee on :
Jordan...,
He keeps posting the idiocies he chooses to believe. I say chooses, because I find it difficult, at best, to imagine anyone claiming to have any education, in this day and age, could believe that trash he professes.
Or maybe he is trying to pull our legs and we are being duped by him. Surely no one is dumb enough to believe Fat Rush, the Doper tells the truth and passes on that crap el Fatty spouts as if it is reasonable. This is laughable.
Posted by glassman on :
bdgee, do you disagree with me that we should have philosophy or comparative religion classes? when i was in 5th grade? we learned the three G's that drove the Spanish Conquistadors. Gold was the first.
i also think we should have basic lifesaving starting in 6th grade, with all of the basic knowledge..
have it be required every year till graduation from high school to make sure that everyone of us has the ability for their whole lifetime. the expectation being that an 8th grader be able perform CPR with the same proficiency as a licensed adult...
the only reason i ever learned it is cuz i got a scuba certification.
even the navy didn't teach it to me.
there's lots of gaping holes in our education sytem.
Dubyas no child left behind is actually making it worse, not better. cuz the teachers are having to spend so much time prepping kids to take a test that may or may not be real measure of what has been learnt.
there most certainly is a statistical likelihood that our place in the universe exists because of some intelligent intervention. until we discover life outside of our biosphere, that has to be considered a scientific theory, and cannot possibly be argued away without finding life all over the galaxy... if we can somehow manage to survive and flourish for another 10,000 years? we might just figger out if there is or isn't life all over the galaxy.
Posted by Lockman on :
Don't teach creationism that's fine. I don't recall ever being taught that in my public school anyway.
My problem is with the subliminal message delivered by athesist teachers that a child who believes in god is wrong. Freedom of RELIGION is a constitutional right and I don't need some commie teacher filling my kids head with a communist agenda.
Posted by bdgee on :
"My problem is with the subliminal message delivered by athesist teachers that a child who believes in god is wrong."
This is a crude and bigoted assumption from a religious bigot. I assume you prefer the subliminal message that (1) there is a god and (2) god is that one of that particular teacher's religion, and (3) you seem willing to force that on children that aren't yours. Why? Are you unable to recognize religious bias when it is yours?
"Freedom of RELIGION is a constitutional right and I don't need some commie teacher filling my kids head with a communist agenda."
Actually, there is exactly as basic a statement allowing "freedom of religion" as there is a statement in the Constitution that the people enjoy some "right to privacy". I certainly believe the Constitution supports "freedom of religion" and "the right to privacy", but neither phrase or anything like either of them appears in the Constitution. The Constitution guarantees that laws "respecting" religion will not be allowed, that no laws forbidding the practice of any religion will be allowed (note that atheism is just as much a belief as christianity and is similarly protected), and that no religious requirement may be placed on any government offices of positions (including, by the way, as a witness in a legal proceeding, which is a Constitutionally determined position).
I think you have little, if any, comprehension what atheism is or isn't and need to stop claiming it has properties it does not and that you choose, in bias, to claim it has.
Just how in hell do you bring communism into a consideration of religion. Communism is not a religion and I know of no religion that specifies communism or it's lack as a principle of that religion. Capitalism is also independent of religion and religion is independent of it. You are way off base.
Posted by jordanreed on :
atheism is not communism, is it ?
never had any teacher of mine or my kid teach anything concerning god..
Mans intelligence certainly has enabled him to survive this long...
now we need his intelligence ,more than ever, to continue his survival..
Posted by Lockman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "My problem is with the subliminal message delivered by athesist teachers that a child who believes in god is wrong."
This is a crude and bigoted assumption from a religious bigot. I assume you prefer the subliminal message that (1) there is a god and (2) god is that one of that particular teacher's religion, and (3) you seem willing to force that on children that aren't yours. Why? Are you unable to recognize religious bias when it is yours?
"Freedom of RELIGION is a constitutional right and I don't need some commie teacher filling my kids head with a communist agenda."
Actually, there is exactly as basic a statement allowing "freedom of religion" as there is a statement in the Constitution that the people enjoy some "right to privacy". I certainly believe the Constitution supports "freedom of religion" and "the right to privacy", but neither phrase or anything like either of them appears in the Constitution. The Constitution guarantees that laws "respecting" religion will not be allowed, that no laws forbidding the practice of any religion will be allowed (note that atheism is just as much a belief as christianity and is similarly protected), and that no religious requirement may be placed on any government offices of positions (including, by the way, as a witness in a legal proceeding, which is a Constitutionally determined position).
I think you have little, if any, comprehension what atheism is or isn't and need to stop claiming it has properties it does not and that you choose, in bias, to claim it has.
Just how in hell do you bring communism into a consideration of religion. Communism is not a religion and I know of no religion that specifies communism or it's lack as a principle of that religion. Capitalism is also independent of religion and religion is independent of it. You are way off base.
Bdgee Am I suppose to be upset by your calling me a bigot? You demonstrate socialistic and egotistical tendancies , but do I call you a egotistical socialist, no. Clean up your language and maybe you'll be respected for the brilliant mind you seem have.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
bdee - do u believe in God? do you believe in a higher power other than yourself?
Or do you profess that the higher power stops at you?
Do you beleive you have a soul or spirit?
Jave you been so abused that god, hiher power is non-existant for you?/
Now, I amn ot talking religion bdgee, simply god or a higher power than us...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Did God give us free will?
With free will comes one's creation, etc..
Do you have free will bdgee or have you been totally conditioned by those that showed you no love?
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Is religion belief or faith?
Belief is a value system, nothin more...
Faith is MOre...and above faith is a knowing...I have NO doubt God exists..
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Bdgee..are you an atheist?
Why are you so hateful and condeming?/
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Clean up your language and maybe you'll be respected for the brilliant mind you seem have.
Brilliant mind - LOL! Third grade bully is more like it!
Posted by jordanreed on :
no god,never was,never will be..
no santa
no easter bunny
no life after death
no soul
no spirit
only death...the end
believe it and you will live easier.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
wow...do you have free will?
Wiht free will comes, creationism...think about it...
Posted by jordanreed on :
evolution, buddy..think about it..try to use reason.
Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: no god,never was,never will be..
no santa
no easter bunny
no life after death
no soul
no spirit
only death...the end
believe it and you will live easier.
Damn, I've been banking on an afterlife of smallmouths, free beer and cuban cigars. Guess that's all shot to hell now? Ah well, I'll eventually turn into worm food, maybe someone will catch something decent with a part of me.
Posted by jordanreed on :
hopefully...lol
Posted by jordanreed on :
smallmouth,wally,northren,muskie....dam!..now you got me dreamin. trollin lake-o-woods with a cold brew and a ceegar...playin sax at nite and partying with the help..then do it again the next day...
Posted by jordanreed on :
i just got goose bumps
Posted by glassman on :
they don't have glass furnaces in heaven do they Posted by thinkmoney on :
anyways,if yo ubelief you have free will then creationism is in play...
Evolution evolves no creation...but life is a mystery and a big part of it is creation as exemplified by art and all disciplines and by science..sciencei s what man learns, hence creates in his/her thinking...
Free will implies creationism..we all can co-creat with the Creator...and we do either consciously or sub-consciusly... Jordanreed..if you doubt any of what I am saying..I challeng you for a week to be a creationist...create the life you want...
That is why we have free will but ultiamte destiny is god...
For a whole week, think you are a good person and be nice ...do as many good deeds as you can...do not be negative or try not to be... you will be amazed at what is created simply by your intent and attitude...It may e hard but no matter what do good..dont damn the rude drive, bless them, hlp your co-workers anyway you cam...folks will be thinking you are cry cause your nice and positive but ignore..for a week, be nice, do good ,and be positive...and see what happens to you...
it may be the start of you knowing you are a child of GOd and can co create this world... and not only will you be happier but you will have more of what is your intent...try it..i dare you..for one week...be nice, try having good thoughts and know your world is ass you desire..as you co-create....
Posted by glassman on :
TM, why do you need God to do that?
I'm not questioning the validity of your view, i just don't understand how that proves God..
i see the universe as having a system of laws that make it work, that's God.
Love is something different because if God created fleas? That's not very nice IMO...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
You just answered your own question..Universe has a system that make it work and that is God...
I agree, I will expand...if no God, then no creation...but we see creation every day...and we also can create ..co-create with God...
God is the creator and we co-create our world. we have free will but ultimate destiny is God.
How does it prove God? No proof just knowing..
Science is proof but knowing is beyond science... Science proved earth was flat, science proved man evolved from apes...science proves what man's thinking is at the time..constrained by time and space...God is beyond science and not constrained..
If God is the creator and we co-create..I challene anyone who with integrity follow thru to create...God is good so if we align ourselves with God..and do good, at our human level at whatever growth we are at, we will see results,,,
A challenge for a week, dont damn the rude driver, dont damn me if ya diasagree, be nice, do good, help anyone in every moment that ya can...folks will flip but continue to do good and create the world ya want...thin only good...and if hard to do..say god bless to all... God will bring forth to ya life more than ya gave out...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Godis love, God create all and evolution is god's making...
But, what we see may not be nice but we were given free will...
Free will determines the world we create...
But, free will plys into evolution...sins of the father ....It is not nice for a baby to die but maybe because of free will, the soul wanted it that way...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
And, all pain we have is because of the sins of our fathers and our free will to choose..pain tells us wrong way buster...f we dont go the right way, than we have more pain til we learn the lesson..
i will use alcoholism as an example...it is passsed from generation to generation as all sin or negative choices until someone stops the buck...i inherit the sins of my father in my genes and in my attitutudes but because of free will, i can stop the buck, and future generations will be healthier...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Everyone always says prove God, that is science, to have a hypothesis and prove..but science is a miniscule of creation...Creation requires no proof but knowing...and once you have no doubt life is as you co-create with God........
Posted by jordanreed on :
such is your belief....but not mine..
I'm sure you will live just fine in your world,as I will in mine...
Do murderers use free will? is this your gods plan? Do they actually have a choice? Do pedophiles? are they compelled?
again..
no god,never was, never will be...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
no god,never was, never will be...
I feel sorry for you!
Posted by glassman on :
i don't disagree, i guess i'm just mad about some of the injustice. maybe it's there to make us grow?
Posted by Upside on :
What about re-incarnation? I wanna come back as a Rapala deep diving Husky Jerk. Think it's possible?
Posted by T e x on :
You are Husky Jerk now...
don't know about deep diving Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: no god,never was, never will be...
I feel sorry for you!
keep your sorrys in your pocket,son...
feel sorry for yourself,in your fearfull.guilt-ridden life.. so scared to upset your vengeful god, that he may comdem you to hell for all eternity...what a pathetic joke!...I laugh Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x: You are Husky Jerk now...
don't know about deep diving
Nah, I get below a couple of feet and I start to panic.
Posted by T e x on :
lol...quit lying
you never panic
Posted by Upside on :
Seriously? Back on topic, the whole BAM! we're here argument seems a little hard to swallow. Although so does the argument that we were once micro-organisms in the bubbling soup. There's holes in both theories and in my opinion neither of them should be taught as "fact" in any school setting. As Glassman says, they'd be more appropriate in a philosophy class.
Posted by T e x on :
fossil record is fact. Anybody can go wander around and pick up fossils...
Obviously, things change--hell, we get new "designer" dog breeds every year.
Posted by glassman on :
yeah but how did DNA come to be? that's still a philosphical question. the problem is that we pretty much know it didn't come from a lump of clay, or a rib bone.... IMO? that doesn't make the Bible lies, it just makes it a guide for, well, stone age people just learning to become civlised...
Posted by T e x on :
quote:yeah but how did DNA come to be?
how could you stop it?
Even when the poles change and cosmic rays bombard the earth, now lacking the protection the magnetosphere offers--now we're at Mutation Blue-Plate Special--that's easy enough to grasp, right?
In short, DNA obtains because it's the simplest route "outta this mess."
Posted by bdgee on :
"Damn, I've been banking on an afterlife of smallmouths, free beer and cuban cigars. Guess that's all shot to hell now? Ah well, I'll eventually turn into worm food, maybe someone will catch something decent with a part of me."
Nope....opposites attract....just gonna lure trash fish with up-bait.
"And, all pain we have is because of the sins of our fathers and our free will to choose..pain tells us wrong way buster...f we dont go the right way, than we have more pain til we learn the lesson.."
Which definitely explains why little babies are born addicted to crack......to feel pain for mama being a doper.
I think your god isn't very nice to hurt that little baby so it will suffer for mama being bad.
I wonder who is being punished for what by god when someone has malaria or was born blind or with chronic migraines?
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Which definitely explains why little babies are born addicted to crack......to feel pain for mama being a doper.
I think your god isn't very nice to hurt that little baby so it will suffer for mama being bad.
That just plain ridiculous. Babies are born addicted to crack because their mothers are crack addicts. People have free will and there are consequences to the choices we make, except in wacko-leftist-aethiest land where everyone is a victim and they want the government to be their nursemaid.
Of course, we can always lean on those little gray aliens in the huge, top-secret, underground, new world order cities to steer us right. I guess you leftists believe in aliens instead of God. What a freak show!
Posted by bdgee on :
"That just plain ridiculous"
It was supposed to be ridiculous, in order to point out the parallel absurdities of declaring absolute knowledge of the intent of god.
Posted by Propertymanager on :
It was supposed to be ridiculous, in order to point out the parallel absurdities of declaring absolute knowledge of the intent of god.
I didn't see a post where anyone declared "absolute knowledge of the intent of God". God is infinite and certainly no human being could have absolute knowledge of God's intentions.
Posted by Hannibull on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: [b]People have free will and there are consequences to the choices we make, except in wacko-leftist-aethiest land where everyone is a victim and they want the government to be their nursemaid.
what a black and white view of the world you have...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: It was supposed to be ridiculous, in order to point out the parallel absurdities of declaring absolute knowledge of the intent of god.
I didn't see a post where anyone declared "absolute knowledge of the intent of God". God is infinite and certainly no human being could have absolute knowledge of God's intentions.
hmmmm... there was no post here maybe, but Fearless Leader has made that claim several times, and plenty of sheople have followed him.
thinkmoney suggests giving oneself over to her faith, which i can accept, but we live in a society where even the most honestly religious people are much more likely to spend their time being involved of the politics of their church than they are in trying to be more like Jesus.
i prefer what i believe to be an older Jewish concept, but since i am not Jewish and have not studied the Kaballah very much, i can't attribute the concept fully. It says: Assume the yoke of God. That was the allegory within the story of Jesus refusing to fight against the soldiers who came to take him. It's not easy.
Posted by bdgee on :
It isn't surprising you don't. Reading and understanding seem not to be among your talents, unless you are only feigning ignorance.
Assuming honestly on your part, I note that
"all pain we have is because of the sins of our fathers and our free will to choose....."
declares an absolute knowledge of the intent and reason of god's thoughts.
And certainly, god being god, you are correct in the assessment that "no human being could have absolute knowledge of God's intentions", including any that might be how god thinks and his reason and intention for pain.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Ubfortunatelt, we all have free will, at anypoint in time a murderer can choose differently - it is not good but we were given free will....
and, we also have sins of the father and good and bad genes, but we can choose to act as we want...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
God is all knowing and all apoerfful not me...
what I share are my knowings and you can rebuke but i have a right tof expression -
Adam ate the fruit so hence, sins of the father - if that is to abstract for you to understand, you will one day... Yes, little babies born to crack because of choice of mom and dad - why sins of the father comes into play....
Once born, free will kicks in - to change any circumstance...but limited by our own ingenuity
Posted by jordanreed on :
i dont believe a serial murderer has free will..
he hates what he does, but is compelled to kill...
nice work,god
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Glass - All we experience in life is to make us grow - exactly injustice is created by man's free will and interpreted subjectively ---
Posted by thinkmoney on :
he may feel complelled - but he does have free will to choose -
Posted by jordanreed on :
this bible is a work of fiction! stop living your life according to a book!
live according to your heart and be true to yourself. its the only way to be truely happy!
follow me. my children..and i will lead you to the promesed land!!
only the weak need to be led... be your own leader and control your own life!
be yourself!..not like some book tells you to be!...
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: he may feel complelled - but he does have free will to choose -
no...he doesnt
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Would you rather be a robot? or have free will?
With free will, there are consequences, some good others bad but also growth is possible...
Physical pain tells us something is not working right physically - how else would you give it attention?
Emotional pain tells us our thoughts are distorted -and negative --
In aberrations, a few folks cant feel physical pain, and from their mouths, I read it ss treacherous, and would give all to have the pain so they dont harm themselves ---
and, many fols are so numb emotionally, they dont feel - dont lnow how - so mixed up -
Posted by jordanreed on :
I yam what I yam...
Posted by glassman on :
why didn't God make us better to begin with tho?
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Pain is a way we learn - it forces us to change or the pain deepens -
It is a law of the universe, hence God ---
Posted by jordanreed on :
golly-gee-whiz
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Adam and Eve were at one with God - until the apple- that is in the bible - it has signiifcance in interpretation -
I do not take the bible literally but the bible has truth -
And, even though we are not perfect, deep inside we are- At our core essence, we all are made in the image of God, and perfect - we can at any moment choose to be better and who we are is magnificent if we make that choice-
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: Pain is a way we learn - it forces us to change or the pain deepens -
It is a law of the universe, hence God ---
????? you're joking,right????its the law of the universe,hence god???...that doesnt follow,,,at all..it doesnt even make sense..
lets see.. My finger hurts cuz I cut it..my nieghbor has a headache cuz he drank too much..well, thats the law of the universe. That proves there is a god. okay.. Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: Adam and Eve were at one with God - until the apple- that is in the bible - it has signiifcance in interpretation -
I do not take the bible literally but the bible has truth -
And, even though we are not perfect, deep inside we are- At our core essence, we all are made in the image of God, and perfect - we can at any moment choose to be better and who we are is magnificent if we make that choice-
once again we agree. but it's not easy .
do you realise that secular humanists more or less believe the same thing but don't use God to get to the same conclusion?
Posted by jordanreed on :
And, even though we are not perfect, deep inside we are-
that doesnt make sense,either
Posted by jordanreed on :
being as there is no god..we are not MADE in the image of it,him,her,whatever..
we evolved!
Posted by Propertymanager on :
i dont believe a serial murderer has free will.. he hates what he does, but is compelled to kill...
...and there we have the essence of the wacko left. Everyone is a victim. It's a good thing we have the leftist elitists to help all the victims.
The TRUTH is that some people are EVIL. They are not victims. They are not helpless. They make evil choices and they deserve the consequences.
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: being as there is no god..we are not MADE in the image of it,him,her,whatever..
we evolved!
we are still being made, and prolly always will be (i hope) Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: i dont believe a serial murderer has free will.. he hates what he does, but is compelled to kill...
...and there we have the essence of the wacko left. Everyone is a victim. It's a good thing we have the leftist elitists to help all the victims.
The TRUTH is that some people are EVIL. They are not victims. They are not helpless. They make evil choices and they deserve the consequences.
Jesus would ask you, who are you to judge?
by modern definitions? Jesus was a left wing whacko, as you so aptly put it.
malaria and mosquitoes and fleas and screworm flies are evil too.
Posted by jordanreed on :
its not a choice,,,you wacko,righty,tighty
they choose to be evil?..or is something off in their head.... some people are just insane and they dont have a choice in the matter.......you,for instance
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Glass, I agree - I know the seculars leave God out of the conclusion, an that is dangerous -
For our society, and finally faith folks are responding -
There are wackos on both sides but in my opinion, all religions and all belefs have same truth on abstract terms -
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Our actios, our thughts who we became as folks - not perfect - but deep insode us we are a part of God - and perfect - I realize that is a contradiction but also reality - Reality has duality
Posted by jordanreed on :
just because some dont believe in your god does not mean they arent good people,and arent kind,loving,giving,etc.....some of us dont NEED your help..or a book to help us...
Posted by Propertymanager on :
Jesus would ask you, who are you to judge? by modern definitions? Jesus was a left wing whacko, as you so aptly put it.
I am not judging anyone. However, I certainly know that there is good and evil in the world. I realize that for the wacko left nothing is wrong or evil, everything is just a lifestyle choice and criminals are all victims.
Jesus wasn't political at all and his kingdom is not of this earth.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
And, honestly, I respect - You have a right -
i am not offering help - I offer my insights - I share thats it -
But, personally, i havnt met a person that was not in need of help - we all seek comfort and understaanding - and love ---and help along the way of LIFE --Some will not use the bible, that is their choice -
The bible is one resource of many in life that folks can grow in faith -
And, ultimately our heart can lead us to the truth - Ask and you shall have --
Posted by bdgee on :
"Adam and Eve were at one with God - until the apple- that is in the bible "
No, it is not in the bible.
It was the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Clearly pointing out god's intent that we use our free will to remain hopelessly ignorant. I'm not so sure I approve.
Isn't it clear that you advocate that we blindly follow your interpretation of the bible, one of which is that you can interpret god's will, and follow unquestioningly. That's being like a robot. So how can you say
"Would you rather be a robot? or have free will?"
That is contradictory.
It is obvious that, if god made us, as you describe, we have no choice byut to have free will. Then you declare that if we think on our own and act accordingly, we are violating the wishes and intent of god.
Pick one or the other. Either we have free will to use or we are to follow blindly the will of god and not our own. The two cannot be both true, at least as you describe them.
Pain clearly isn't an instrument of god. Pain, like the expression "it hurts like the very devil" is an instrument of the devil, isn't it?
Surely no all loving and all powerful god would wish pain on his creation (I borrow the analogy from William James)?
Posted by glassman on :
i also think jr has a real point tm. i understand your faith and knwo many peopl that have lived good lives because of it, but i also know many people who live good lives without the bible. i don't hink you are judging the peopl without the bible as much as you are trying to help them, but to some people? anybody holding out the bible is not to be trusted. most of them have good reasons ofr beleiving this.
Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were/are not people that follow Jesus' teachings yet they are/were the most visible religious "leaders" in the US...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Propertymanager: Jesus would ask you, who are you to judge? by modern definitions? Jesus was a left wing whacko, as you so aptly put it.
I am not judging anyone. However, I certainly know that there is good and evil in the world. I realize that for the wacko left nothing is wrong or evil, everything is just a lifestyle choice and criminals are all victims.
Jesus wasn't political at all and his kingdom is not of this earth.
hmmm.. thats where Huckabee ran off the tracks for me.
Jesus was of this earth and that is the point.
the duality of his reality is very important to faith.
Posted by thinkmoney on :
How about Joel Olsteen - he comes closer to Jesus' teachings?
Posted by bdgee on :
It isn't necessary to not believe in the bible to be offended by this incessant insistence that you and your interpretation is the only one allowed, because your interpretations directly contradicts their beliefs.
That someone does not agree with you does not make them an atheist or wrong. So how about stopping this hate. How is it any different than the moslem extremist intent to define god their way and their insistence they have a duty to god to insist that they, not you are correct? No matter how you express your intent, it intends to declare any other as unfit! Posted by thinkmoney on :
Jesus saves all - no condemation - But, he did teach good and understood good and evil -----Father forgive then for that know not what they are doing -
Many are unaware that we can choose - but sins of the father- evolutional conditioning - we dont know waht we are doing - unawareness - but deep within we KNOW---but we have to ask/want to know and we will ---
Posted by thinkmoney on :
Bdgee - I JUST said you have every right to beleive as you choose - your soul is on you!!
You are not wrong just not YET there - lol
Posted by bdgee on :
Jesus was incorrect when he said that the reward for belief in him was heaven and not getting to heaven was the punishment for a non-believer.
The punishment, quite clearly, is ever present preaching of those that think they have the only answer to belief.
Posted by bdgee on :
But why must even most believers suffer the cacophony of incessant preaching? Did Jesus disapprove of quiet?
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: Bdgee - I JUST said you have every right to beleive as you choose - your soul is on you!!
You are not wrong just not YET there - lol
you are not there,yet..that is why you need direction!...you dont know and are still searching for answers. you think you have found the answers in your fictional book..but that is not the case..I,on the other hand, have no questions and am not searching..never have been.. My power of reasoning(intellect) has developed the answers without ever having the questions... I know, therefor I am..
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Being a good person and doing good deeds is not the sole proprietorship of those who believe in the bible. And the interpretation of "good" is a judgment in itself.
For those who believe in the bible, good for you. But stop pushing your brand of so-called goodness on everyone else. Its so judgmental and exclusionary. Not the Jesus likeness you purport to extol.
Posted by glassman on :
Not the Jesus likeness you purport to extol.
that's my biggest problem with all organised religions.
in Buddhism? the goal is to become a Buddha (teacher, or enlightened one)
Posted by thinkmoney on :
You can count on your intellect -
But, for me the intellect is only a smart part of who we are-----
We are spitual beings ahving a human experience -taken form Marianne W ---
Posted by thinkmoney on :
I said ----I repeat if there is a fog out there - The bible is one resource of many in life that folks can grow in faith -
And, ultimately our heart leads us to the truth -
Posted by jordanreed on :
see// ??so sanctimonious
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Religion is very separatist. A point clearly made if you read all these posts.
A philosophical journey/debate/consideration at best.
Posted by jordanreed on :
just believe in yourself..you keep saying,,faith...thats ridick!...if you said faith in yourself?...then I would agree. But you seem to think that everyone needs faith in something other then themselves. Thats where you go off into searching for answers. answers to what? why we are here?..Maybe there is no answer..why does there have to be?...maybe we just are.
evolution,my friend...it just is
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by thinkmoney: You can count on your intellect -
But, for me the intellect is only a smart part of who we are-----
We are spitual beings ahving a human experience -taken form Marianne W ---
Are you going to start quoting messages from Orion as fact too? Its a great belief system if it gives you comfort and helps you grow, but its simply one of many concepts to live by.
Posted by Hannibull on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: why didn't God make us better to begin with tho?
humans are animals, millions of women in Africa have their clitori forcibly removed by their husbands who "own them", human trafficking is going on right now where women are treated like objects and sold into prostitution where they are forced not to use condoms to meet the expectations of her ***hole clients or else face the consequences of being beaten up. Entire populations are starving while their government people are fat from gluttony. Men go to certain countries to have sex with teenage girls (or boys) who are then beaten up by their pimps and held prison. Child labor is a practice of every day... want more examples?
And then christians say god made us all in his image? yikes!
Posted by bdgee on :
Something I have always known is that those that believe that, without religion for guidance, there is nothing to make people do right and, therefore, believe anyone not of their particular belief is doomed to be doing wrong must be the very last people ever to trust to do what is right. Such a selfish opinion of others is a bit insulting.
I do not need the fear of their religion (or the fear of any religion or punishment) to know what is and isn't right. I have known people of all varieties of belief that are good right thinking people without your or my or any particular religion dictating how they are to act and think.
Try respecting others beliefs, no matter what they might be, mind your own business, and SHUT THE HELL UP!
Posted by bdgee on :
Thinking of humans being animals (which is clearly a fact) I have always had reservations about heaven expressed quite well by Gene Hill with the statement, "If there is no place in Heaven for a lab (he's talking about the dog), then I don't want to go."
Gene Hill understood a lot about good and evil.
Posted by jordanreed on :
amen!!
Posted by Upside on :
Posted by Upside on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "Damn, I've been banking on an afterlife of smallmouths, free beer and cuban cigars. Guess that's all shot to hell now? Ah well, I'll eventually turn into worm food, maybe someone will catch something decent with a part of me."
Nope....opposites attract....just gonna lure trash fish with up-bait.
So my remnants are only going to catch carp and the like?
Posted by thinkmoney on :
'Is shut the hellp up' an example of a good atheist? ARe your usual insults a reflection of a good person? You have been so insulting to alot on this thread - I actuall feel sorry for you --
I dont care what ur beliefs are - but apparently your actions demonstrate a negative heart ---
Posted by bdgee on :
thinkmoney,
You certainly do care what my beliefs are. You can't stop trying to degrading them and insulting me.
You have no idea what my religious beliefs are, so why do you insist on calling me an atheist?
For your information, I have been a member in good standing of a major christian church probably longer than you have been breathing. For that reason, I find your preaching and holier than thou attitude revolting.
I say again, "Try respecting others beliefs, no matter what they might be, mind your own business, and SHUT THE HELL UP!"
Posted by glassman on :
budge, why can't we have a discussion.
tm isn't tryin' to witness you. or solicit funds, i surely haven't seen her damn you to hell for being anon-believer...
Posted by thinkmoney on :
thanks glass- you are a chum -lol
Yep, a discussion no more -
I respect all beliefs as long as no harm to others - I respect all freedom of expression and religion or no religion - I also find fault with organized religion thru the ages - but i dont throw it out completely - I distinguis between religion and god and religion and spirituality diff concepts -
Posted by Lockman on :
The original topic was about not teaching creationism in public schools. That's fine don't.
In disqualifying creationism and accepting evolution as the only answer to our existance we must be careful not to discriminate against those that thru their beliefs accept creationism as a possiblity.
Posted by bdgee on :
Glass...,
I'm tired of the lame brained bigot calling me names and declaring I say and think things I don't.
He isn't discussing, he is insulting and passing around bigoted trash. It's hard to discuss with someone who resorts to hollering athiest and communist and other ignorant insults in place of discussion.
And you, accusing me of it instead of him is as bad.
There is no respect when what he offers is lies and name calling.
And there is none when you take sides.
Posted by glassman on :
budge, i missed the part where thinkmoney called you names...
other people YES, but not thinkmoney.. and that is who i was talking about
as for the other people? we all know why they call you names Posted by bdgee on :
They do it a lot to impress and please you.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
No budgee...they do it because your arrogance and hatred pisses them off...
You throw more insults and cheap shots than any other poster here, yet you cry foul when someone does the same to you...in fact, you cry foul even when they don't...
Posted by bdgee on :
Hahaha
That a lot of horse hockey coming from someone that insults first, second, and foremost, then post falsehoods and objects if anyone points out they are false.
When your moniker shows on a post, it is often guaranteed that you are there to hurl insults and misinformation. Then when that is pointed out that you are claiming an untruth, you respond with insults and bigotry, often religious in nature.
The United States was not set up to be a christian nation and there is no constitutional provision selecting any religion as the standard or preferred, christianity included, but you like claiming it otherwise. Correcting that isn't name calling, but you like to insist that it is. You like to spreads far right evangelical lies and propaganda and when that is pointed out, you attack claiming that correction is hate speech.
It isn't arrogance, it is correcting your posted misinformation that you find objectionable, though you don't seem able to understand the difference.
You might try not demanding others adopt your Party's far right-wing evangelical politics and worshiping your god. Rational discussion isn't allowed by your intransigence.
Posted by retiredat49 on :
I have insulted no one here...Merely stated a simple fact that you yourself, have proven again and again.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I have insulted no one here...Merely stated a simple fact that you yourself, have proven again and again.
Bull......
Posted by glassman on :
ya know? i've noticed a human characteristic that is sorta like mob behaviour.
put people in a car? and half of them treat other dirvers like they aren't people.. (and i'm not talking about street racers either) they do stuff they would never do, say, with a shopping cart. some do still act that way with a shopping cart tho, and i usually loudly proclaim they are rude to everybody within shouting distance in the store.
some people do the same crap on-line.
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
LoL...I told you guys religious threads go no where at allstocks!!!!
Posted by bdgee on :
Wrong, Ace, they go round and round and never end.
Religion is intensely personal and needs to be respected and left exactly there rather than out posing in public for attention.
Posted by wdcisco on :
"they go round and round and never end."
I would consider that no where..LOL
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Wrong, Ace, they go round and round and never end.
Religion is intensely personal and needs to be respected and left exactly there rather than out posing in public for attention.
actually budge, freedom of speech allows for discussion of it. you seem to think any mention of it is illegal or something.
this board is not a govt owned facility, yet anybody that brings it up becomes a target of your ire.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
Sometimes i wonder if there really is discussion in the real meaning of the word when it comes to religion.
One religion has their views and the other has their views and neither usually wants to give an inch when it comes to their religion. Isn't that what the wars are all about in the Middle East and elsewhere.
I have friends that are different religions. I usually do not hear much about it, but from time to time over the years i would hear them discuss how the other persons religion is way off. But they never have tried to convince me to become part of their religion, maybe they know i am a lost cause.
Some of my friends were not that religious when they were younger, but as they have grown in age they seem to have really gotten into it, for lack of a better word. I have been wondering if since they are getting older they feel they have to make up for those younger years of partying. I hate to burst their bubble.
There is nothing wrong with discussion. But i do have a tough time when you cannot walk certain places without these religious groups trying to shove their religion down other peoples throats.
Friday night at the local pier many times these religious groups hang out and they try and work the area for their religion. They will do their best to push their beliefs on everyone walking on the pier. They do get pretty aggressive many times.
Religion in the business sense is big business. Sometimes people get caught up in the business of religion and do not even know their in it.
There is religion and there is religion, sometimes the two are a long ways apart.
Posted by bdgee on :
The problem with discussing religion or religions is that people loose the ability to recognize that belief is not knowledge, has no basis in fact, and provides no guarantee of reality (though each may be promised). Then, provided with that truth, they take it as an attack by someone else on their person, when it is their realization of the logical failure that is pointing the finger.
It is, indeed, possible for most people to absolutely believe in the truth of a thing they have proof to be false, be it a religious thing or not.
As there can be no logical "proof", without the actual physical intervention of an actual god, it comes down to arguing over who believes the details of his belief the strongest, a thing that in other situations we often refer to a "will power" or "bull headedness".
Somehow, the notion that, "If I stuck to my argument longer than you and refused to succumb to yours, then I won." is a bit short of logical.
I always have wanted to know why there must be a winner or a looser. If some religion does require one or the other, doesn't that tell us that that religion is less than generous (I understand that there is no logical reason that restricts a religion from being self centered and selfish, I just would prefer mine to be otherwise. Your's too!)
Posted by glassman on :
that's why i like comparative religion studies...
it's amazing how similar Hercules and Jesus were...
somewhere in it all? there are some common truths...
Posted by Ace of Spades on :
Most of you in this tread will be in hell one day...that's for damn sure!!!! Posted by cottonjim on :
Judging by your language...................we will be saving you a seat.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I like the way Ace of Spades used the phrase "Most of You".
I was told many years ago that i(we) could not go back that we had already been there. But just in case i will wear shorts and a tank top instead of army fatigues.
My friends will be there also. You might want to dress lightly Ace of Spades. Posted by glassman on :
they don't have glass furnaces in heaven anyway do they?
Posted by glassman on :
seriously? i believe heaven and hell are right here on earth, and eventually everybody gets EXACTLY what they deserve.
Posted by bdgee on :
Yep, me too.
Some how, the chance to spend forever sitting on a cloud endlessly hearing harp music and little old blue haired ladies sipping tea and gossiping doesn't appeal to me. Anyway, everyone I ever admired is already or soon will be in hell.
Maybe Ben brought along an armonica and will play us a few songs.
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
I think they only have those glass furnaces in the lower part of heaven, Glassman.
It sounds like you have already been in heaven working at something you really like to do.
Posted by bdgee on :
IWISHIHAD, there is a great deal of truth and understanding of the secret of life in what you say.
However, like the song says,
"I may not go to heaven, .... they may not let cowboys in. So, when I die, just send me back to Texas. "cause Texas is the closest I've been."
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if I believed a green monster with 12 legs put us all on this earth as what we are today, should it also be considered a possibility in a science class? Why just your belief?
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