Turn it on if you are around. Have a feeling this is gonna be bad.
Can you say violent culture clash?
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
This happened in Iraq.
Fell in love with a Sunni boy when she was of a different religion.
They say many men in the neighborhood took part in the honor killing and many more (including security forces) stood by and watched.
How do you relate with a culture where this is seen a permissible???
Posted by cottonjim on :
I DON'T relate with the culture, doesn't make any kind of sense to me.
Posted by jordanreed on :
stoning?...isnt that an old custom from that bible book?
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I stick by my previous statements regarding policy and such when it comes to the middle east, but when they play stories like this I understand the reactionary "kill em all, let god sort it out" feelings of hate.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Yep. Stoning was common in biblical times for prostitution and such, specially in the old testament.
New testament is where you get Jesus saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Posted by cottonjim on :
You know that if they were throwing rocks at a puppy PETA would be all over them, the courts would already be involved and it would probably make bigger headlines. It's a sad, sad, sick little world we live in...some people.
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Here is the story as first reported by the Daily Mail in London on May 3rd.
quote: The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy Last updated at 18:28pm on 3rd May 2007
A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.
As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.
Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life.
Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.
The teenager was dragged outside by 8 or 9 men and stoned for half an hour until she died. Her boyfriend is now in hiding in fear for his life
They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend.
Miss Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul.
A large crowd watched as eight or nine men stormed the house and dragged Miss Aswad into the street. There they hurled stones at her for half an hour until she was dead.
The stoning happened last month, but only came to light yesterday with the release of the Internet video.
It is feared her death has already triggered a retaliatory attack. Last week 23 Yezidi workmen were forced off a bus travelling from Mosulto Bashika by a group of Sunni gunmen and summarily shot dead.
An Amnesty International spokesman in London said they receive frequent reports of honour crimes from Iraq – particularly in the predominantly Kurdish north.
Most victims are women and girls who are considered by male relatives to have shamed their families by immoral behaviour.
Kurdish authorities have introduced reforms outlawing honour killings, but have failed to investigate them or prosecute suspects, added the Amnesty spokesman.
Kate Allen, the organisation’s UK director, said: "This young girl’s murder is truly abhorrent and her killers must be brought to justice.
"Unless the authorities respond vigorously to this and any other reports of crimes in the name of 'honour', we must fear for the future of women in Iraq."
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
Another story from the Daily Mail with more info released today.
quote: The girl who was stoned to death for falling in love by NATALIE CLARKE - » Last updated at 00:52am on 17th May 2007
A teenage girl lies dead on the ground in a pool of her own blood.
Her once groomed hair is cast across her face like a rag doll's, her skirt pulled up to complete her humiliation.
In another image, she is seen lying on her side, her face battered and bloodied, barely recognizable.
The concrete block used to smash in her face lies next to her.
Du'a Khalil Aswad was beaten, kicked and stoned for 30 minutes at the hands of a lynch mob before one of her attackers launched a carefully aimed fatal blow.
Du'a Khalil Aswad: Killed by a lynch mob for falling in love
The murder was carried out in public, watched by hundreds of men cheering and yelling. Du'a's crime? To fall in love with a Sunni boy. Her family practiced the Yezidi religion.
The Sunnis and Yezidis hate each other. When Du'a ran away with her Sunni boyfriend, a sentence of death was passed on her.
This act of medieval savagery took place last month in a town in northern Iraq, in the fledgling 'democracy' created by Bush and Blair when they invaded the country in 2003 and 'freed' its people.
The sickening scenes, which defy belief in every sense, were captured by some of the observers and participants who thought it would be proper to record these harrowing events as some sort of memento.
Perhaps they thought it would serve as a warning to other young people who dared to follow their hearts - not the strictures of a religion which will not brook dissent - and punishes adolescent impetuosity with the most brutal of public murders.
The killing was filmed on a number of mobile phones. The images were then - all too predictably - posted on the internet.
The Mail takes no pleasure in publishing these pictures. But we believe our readers should witness the depths of the depravity still being carried out in the 21st century in the name of 'honour'.
Perhaps, then, something can be done to prevent it happening again.
Of course, anyone who takes even a passing interest in news is all too aware of the tragedy that has engulfed the people of Iraq: the daily bombings, murders and kidnappings.
The subjugation of its women, however, has been largely ignored. Yet according to cultural observers, the number of so-called 'honour killings' has increased in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
Campaigners say there is an 'epidemic' of such killings in the wartorn country. Autopsy reports in Baghdad often conclude with the verdict: "Killed to wash away her disgrace."
The filming of Du'a's death was just one more macabre element of her killing, but it has achieved something those bloodthirsty amateur filmmakers could not have predicted: it has brought such practices into the open and exposed them to the wider world.
It is, of course, too late for Du'a, a strikingly pretty young girl with long auburn hair. The 17-year-old must have hoped that the 'liberation' of her country would afford her opportunities she might otherwise never have had - for her education and a life of happiness free from oppression.
She lived with her family in the town of Bashika, near Mosul. They were neither rich nor poor.
It is believed Du'a met her Sunni boyfriend - whose name is not known - several months ago. They had grown up in an environment where hatred against rival factions is the norm.
The Yezidis - a Gnostic sect which combines Islamic teachings with Persian religions - despise the Sunnis; the Sunnis loathe the Yezidis.
Du'a and her boyfriend would have been all too aware that theirs was a forbidden love. But like so many teenagers before them, right back to the illicit love of Romeo and Juliet, they couldn't help themselves.
For a while, they met in secret. It was during one such highly charged meeting that they came up with a plan to run away together.
It is not clear whether this desperate measure was a result of their having sought and been refused permission to marry, or if they decided to do it knowing that such permission would never be obtained.
"Her family would never have agreed to such a marriage," says Diana Nammi, a leading Kurdish women's rights campaigner.
Some Muslim groups have claimed that Du'a converted to Islam shortly before her murder. According to other reports, her boyfriend denies this.
They ran away together to an address in Bashika. The girl's family alerted the police and Du'a and her boyfriend were found just a few days later.
According to Ms Nammi, who is calling for the girl's killers to be brought to justice, Du'a was arrested and put into prison.
A few days later, the police apparently received assurances from the leader of her tribe - who Ms Nammi believes is Du'a's uncle - that the girl would not be harmed.
What happened next is the subject of conflicting reports. According to some, the house of the tribal leader was stormed by a mob and Du'a dragged out and killed.
Ms Nammi, however, says she has information that it was the tribal leader who betrayed his niece to the mob. In this man's eyes, Du'a had committed an unforgiveable crime, punishable by death.
The family's 'honour' had been besmirched. The moment Du'a was placed in his house, her fate was sealed.
On April 7, Du'a was brought out of the house in a headlock to face the lynch mob. Hundreds of men were waiting for her - the excited atmosphere is said to have resembled a large sporting event - but no women.
On the video, Du'a's screams can be heard as she is dragged to the ground. In a further humiliation, her lower body has been stripped.
Instinctively, Du'a tries to cover herself; only later was a piece of clothing thrown over her.
She is surrounded by an enormous crowd jockeying for a good view of the ritualistic killing. About nine men take part in the attack, including, it is thought, members of the girl's family.
To any father of a daughter, that a helpless girl should be set upon with such cowardly savagery is beyond comprehension. One can barely imagine her terror.
It is a profoundly disturbing spectacle. One man kicks her hard between the legs as she screams in agony. Du'a tries to lift herself up, but someone hurls a concrete block into her face.
Another man stamps on her face. Someone kicks her in the stomach. Police officers stand idly by, some of them apparently enjoying the spectacle as much as anyone else.
Meanwhile, some observers film the execution on their mobile phones - the modern world intruding on a spectacle that belongs more in the Roman arena than in an apparently civilised society.
After half an hour of this savagery, Du'a is finally - mercifully, perhaps - dead. In a final humiliation, a man tries to lift her up, but drops her again, and her bloodied body is rolled face down into a puddle of blood. The family has had its 'honour' restored.
According to Ms Nammi, Du'a's parents did not want her to be stoned, though it is not clear whether they might have agreed for her to be killed in some other way.
After her murder, according to Ms Nammi, two men were arrested by Iraqi police, but she has heard they were subsequently released without charge.
Reports suggest that two of Du'a's uncles and four other people fled the town as investigators began to search for the culprits. It is thought these included her brother, who appeared in the video of the murder.
As for Du'a's boyfriend - who has lost the girl he loved in the most awful circumstances imaginable - he went into hiding for a while, but it is believed that no action has been taken against him.
Du'a was buried in a simple unmarked grave. Later, says Ms Nammi, her body was exhumed by the Kurdish authorities, who have autonomous control of the region, and sent to the Medico-legal Institute in Mosul.
There her body was examined to find out whether she had been a virgin or not, before being returned to the Sheikh Shams cemetery.
To our Western eyes, this posthumous assault on Du'a's body is the final insult. But according to Ms Nammi, it did at least establish that she was still a virgin and innocent of the 'crime' of which she had been accused.
However, Ms Nammi believes the mere fact that Du'a had run off with a Sunni boy would have been enough to have her sentenced to death.
Meanwhile, the cycle of tit-for-tat murders continues in Iraq. In this instance, in an apparent act of retaliation for Du'a's murder, 23 Yezidi workers were attacked and killed two weeks later, apparently by members of an armed Sunni group.
The men were travelling on a bus between Mosul and Bashika when their vehicle was halted by the gunmen, who made them disembark before killing them.
Tomorrow evening, Ms Nammi, founding member of the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation, will lead a group of women meeting in Shoreditch, East London, to remember Du'a Khalil Aswad and give back to her the dignity torn from her by her violent death.
The women are pledged to campaign against the entrenched beliefs which lead to such senseless deaths - and the fact that the people who commit these crimes are not regarded as murderers, but as heroes of the community.
According to Ms Nammi, there have been an estimated 10,000 cases of honour killings in the Kurdistan region in the past decade.
Under Iraqi law, the punishment for anyone found guilty of an honour killing is just six months in prison.
"Something has to be done to stop this," says Ms Nammi, who came to Britain in 1996. "There is an epidemic of so-called honour killings. It is almost routine and utterly unacceptable.
"We would greatly appreciate any contribution from the British Government in preventing these murders of women in Iraq."
Ms Nammi has the support of Amnesty International.
"This young girl's murder is truly abhorrent and her killers must be brought to justice," says Kate Allen, Amnesty International UK Director.
"Unless the authorities respond vigorously to this and other reports of crimes in the name of "honour", we must fear for the future of the women in Iraq."
For the sake of 17-year-old Du'a, an innocent girl who simply fell in love with the wrong man, it is all too little, too late.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim: You know that if they were throwing rocks at a puppy PETA would be all over them, the courts would already be involved and it would probably make bigger headlines. It's a sad, sad, sick little world we live in...some people.
cj. be reasonable!
You imply that PETA is what you types like to call tree huggers and liberals (and love to attack with false and misleading claims, like this) and isn't interested or unconcerned with mistreatement of humans (or at least those humans you approve of).
That ATTITUDE IS a bit assinine and presents a horrible implication which is purely a mistatement of fact .
PETA AN NO OTHER OF OUR INSTITUTIONS, AGENCIES, OR WHATEVER HAVE THE POWER OR THE RIGHT TO BE " all over them" AND OUR COURTS may not "be involved", for christ sake!
If any of our institutions or agencies or whatever that is sanctioned by our government (PETA, as a tax exempt entity is so sanctioned) attempted to become involved in this matter, as you suggest they should, we might better insist that someone be "all over them" and that our "courts would already be involved" and would put an immediate stop to it. (When did we stop recignizing the right of another people to have its own customs and laws that do not stem from ours or our sensabilities?)
Indeed, "some people".
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I agree that it is important to respect other cultures. It is galling though when it goes to extreme examples like this which are (according to the books) illegal even for them.
I think if I were running our country I'd announce an immediate and indefinite policy of asylum for any woman who comes to the embassy looking to get away from any society that is deemed anti-womens rights.
LOL How's that for foreign policy?! I want to work with you to better your country...but first I have a thousand of your women to transport overseas...
Still, this is a very disturbing story and I do hope there is some real fall out for such a horrible murder.
Posted by cottonjim on :
[/QUOTE]cj. be reasonable!
You imply that PETA is what you types like to call tree huggers and liberals (and love to attack with false and misleading claims, like this) and isn't interested or unconcerned with mistreatement of humans (or at least those humans you approve of).
[/QB][/QUOTE]
There you go putting people into your little, labled, boxes again. For you to imply, neigh, accuse "my type" of people of saying that PETA is nothing more than "tree huggers" and "liberals" is rediculous. I never said I dis-approved of what PETA does, my feelings are quite to the contrary. Now that is not to say that I approve of everything that they do. It also appears to me that in some, not most or all, cases they ARE more concerned with animals rights over human rights.I do think that sometimes hteir priorities are a bit skwed. Furthermore, when it comes to the principal of my statement, you have to know I am right and your just looking for a healthy debate.... no, a fight. Look at your words and the way you use them.
Posted by bdgee on :
Indeed it is disturbing ....
...sickening .... but it behooves us to keep both our arrogant hands out of the stew and our arrogant eagerness to condemn and interfere in check. We have already brought on enough ill will in the world's politics with knee jerk interference to keep the world in a mess for severaal generations.
Posted by rimasco on :
While this story is tragic I do believe its up to THEIR women and men to go through the liberating process of their women ALONE. Just like the women over here had to do. It wasnt easy, and yes some lost their lives. But in the end, the women of America got were they are today.....almost equal...."sniker"
There is no recipe for this process, it has to be done through Protest, vigilance, perseverance, and a bunch of other words I dont care to spellcheck. It has to constantly be tweaked to adapt to new challenges.
and it has to take place in MOST Iraqi homes.
I think the women should just stop given-it-up. Yes some will be hurt maybe even killed. But in the long run the men are gonna have to answer to "PETER"
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim:
cj. be reasonable!
You imply that PETA is what you types like to call tree huggers and liberals (and love to attack with false and misleading claims, like this) and isn't interested or unconcerned with mistreatement of humans (or at least those humans you approve of).
[/QUOTE]
There you go putting people into your little, labled, boxes again. For you to imply, neigh, accuse "my type" of people of saying that PETA is nothing more than "tree huggers" and "liberals" is rediculous. I never said I dis-approved of what PETA does, my feelings are quite to the contrary. Now that is not to say that I approve of everything that they do. It also appears to me that in some, not most or all, cases they ARE more concerned with animals rights over human rights.I do think that sometimes hteir priorities are a bit skwed. Furthermore, when it comes to the principal of my statement, you have to know I am right and your just looking for a healthy debate.... no, a fight. Look at your words and the way you use them. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I believe it was you that was doing the labeling.
I do not have any desire to "debate" with you, but I do feel imposed to correct your constant labeling and mistatements about any and everything not far rightwing staandard issue dogma, particularly when you are pumping that satandard issue dogma with misrepresentation and suggesting those in absurd and illegal settings.
There is no parallel for PETA or any other western institution in that strange to us Moslem world and announcing that there is or should be one is not reasonable.
What you were doiing was labeling.
Posted by cottonjim on :
UMMMM, I know you are but what am I, LMAO. It's like having a conversation with a well versed 4th grader. bdgee, I DIDN'T LABEL ANYBODY. You don't label anybody either, they peel off when wet, you seem to prefer red iron, because a brand never washes off.
Posted by ruthie on :
This is NOT about the option of people having their own cultures. This is evil, pure and simple..Calling it by any other name is absurd. Anyone whatever their culture that condones cold blooded murder and that is what this is, a cold barbaric killing, needs to be stopped. It it was happening to anyone we cared or loved, it would be seen through a defferent set of lenses.
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by ruthie: This is NOT about the option of people having their own cultures. This is evil, pure and simple..
According to YOUR religion...according to their religion what the girl did was evil....
What dont you understand? This is how they carry out their death penalty. Should we give them an ample supply of gurnies with straps and windex filled syringes...to be more humane about it?
They gotta figure it out themselves
What about the female circumcision happening in Africa(so-called female genital mutilation)?
And the list goessssss oooooooooooon
Posted by cottonjim on :
Oh Ruthie, that is just your opinion, most likely engrained in your thinking by the RNC. A party that is more concerned with self preservation than it is with human rights. That thinking is only because we are selfish American pigs raised by T.V. and who follow the likes of "Fat Rush the doper" and the "decider". The sooner everyone realizes this, the safer the world will be. Entire populations can go ahead and be wiped out because of their beliefs, thereby making room for the people that are in the right. Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by ruthie: This is NOT about the option of people having their own cultures. This is evil, pure and simple..Calling it by any other name is absurd. Anyone whatever their culture that condones cold blooded murder and that is what this is, a cold barbaric killing, needs to be stopped. It it was happening to anyone we cared or loved, it would be seen through a defferent set of lenses.
Ruthie, this is happening to women who are (supposedly) loved by their family and it is being done by their family...
often it is the eldest (or alapha) brother that leads the mob...
They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend
this part here was actually predicted by Dubya's father: The subjugation of its women, however, has been largely ignored. Yet according to cultural observers, the number of so-called 'honour killings' has increased in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
the mideast has a culture that has also taken male slaves and castrated them to be guards and servants for their multiple wives... and there are two levels of castration..... you don't want the details...
female circumcision is widespread... and that is criminal IMO too..
these are not Islamic principles (as noted in the article? it was Kurds, not Muslims) they are cultural practices...
Posted by rimasco on :
You know we DO STILL have a death penalty here(HELLLLLOOO TEXASSSSS). And judging by DNA evidence, we slipped a few times
You cant intepret or concieve what other cultures would consider blasphemy.
My friends in singapore and told me that chewing gum is illegal there.... LMAO!!!!
Posted by retiredat49 on :
Yea...we should of let Hitler alone to "do his culture thing" against the Jews too...
Posted by bond006 on :
This is sick it shows the evils of a society whos brain is stuck in fundamental theocracy.
The same thing could happen hear if the relgious right had there way and mixed religon and government.
If you think not give it a try for a hunderd years and watch the slaughter begin.
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Yea...we should of let Hitler alone to "do his culture thing" against the Jews too...
I didnt know you were a bigot?
We did the right thing. If you read some of my posts you will see that I believe we do have to intervene "sometimes". You know, the occasional genocide, ethnic cleansing and any other mass murders that our military would be able to decisively quell. These other situations have to be handled by locals...government, police...and a fresh crop of conscience
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by bond006: This is sick it shows the evils of a society whos brain is stuck in fundamental theocracy.
The same thing could happen hear if the relgious right had there way and mixed religon and government.
If you think not give it a try for a hunderd years and watch the slaughter begin.
the founding fathers understood this bond, thats why they wrote the constitution the way they did, and the Evangelical "Universities" have set up law schools to re-interpret and even create a new form of constitutional interpretation in order to UNDO the work of the founding fathers...
a lot of people know about the Salem Witch Trials and think of it as an abberration, what they may not know is that Cotton Mather was graduate of Harvard, and had a Phd...
the founding fathers had this (and other similar less well-known cases) to look at as well as the domination of the Chrurch in the politics of Europe...
Posted by retiredat49 on :
I'm not bigot Rim...it was meant to be sarcastic...
My question to you is "where do we draw the line"?
quote:Originally posted by rimasco:
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: Yea...we should of let Hitler alone to "do his culture thing" against the Jews too...
I didnt know you were a bigot?
We did the right thing. If you read some of my posts you will see that I believe we do have to intervene "sometimes". You know, the occasional genocide, ethnic cleansing and any other mass murders that our military would be able to decisively quell. These other situations have to be handled by locals...government, police...and a fresh crop of conscience
Posted by rimasco on :
I know, I was being sarcastic as well
Im not sure where the lines could be drawn but in my last post I eluded to some
"You know, the occasional genocide, ethnic cleansing and any other mass murders that our military would be able to decisively quell. These other situations have to be handled by locals...government, police...and a fresh crop of conscience"
Things that may destabilize the global economy....we gotta get out of the police the world business, and go back to our super-hero status....CAPT KAAAOOOOS
Posted by The Bigfoot on :
I agree with Rim.
The persecution of the Jews by the German military and a family killing thier daughter over honor are two different things.
I think it is terrible to take a life that way. I also think it is terrible that the life was taken in the name of religion. I think the saddest thing of it is that the autopsy proved the girl was still a virgin and thereby had not "dishonored" herself or her family.
I think that whole region has a whole lot of growing up to do. But how many times do we need to be provided examples that we can not force people to change the way they think and act just because we want them to? You can lead a horse to water...
Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot:
.....
I think if I were running our country I'd announce an immediate and indefinite policy of asylum for any woman who comes to the embassy looking to get away from any society that is deemed anti-womens rights.
......
I have spent countless hours thinking about this very sort of thing but on a bigger scale, and not specific to anti-womens rights but rather human rights in general.
While in some extreme cases, force must be used to attain human rights, most often this is not the case, and providing an escape from tyranny and injustice is both beneficial to America and also one of our best traditions. However, bringing everyone who wants amnesty straight into the country is probably not a good idea either.
The solution I propose is a "Floating Ellis Island" or rather dozens of them, something along the lines of "Freedom Ships".
They could float offshore of trouble spots, in International Waters, and would be protected by the US Military and serve as a temporary city in which these refugees can live.
The ships could be set up with Hospital facilities to treat the sick and with Education facilities to teach. This will provide a temporary refugee camp until whatever issue is creating refugees is resolved, and can serve as a route, for those who wish, to leave their country and immigrate to America.
Time on the ship could be used to learn English, gain basic work skills, and will allow the necessary screening to occur before any refugees are allowed to move to the mainland (USA), after completing the requirements for citizenship.
IMO, this would work far better and probably cost less than invading every country in a misguided attempt to spread freedom, and would be safer and more manageable than just bringing every refugee from every trouble spot straight to the US.
IMO this provides a way to be pro-active towards the cause of freedom and human rights, while avoiding all the pitfalls that come with military "liberation".
I am sure I've left some things out and there are probably problems with this solution that I haven't thought about, but that is basically the general idea.
Posted by rimasco on :
I hate to make light of this situation...but...INDIA WANTS TO THROUGH RICHARD GERE IN JAIL FOR KISSING A WOMEN ON THE NECK IN PUBLIC!
Do you think there saying in India..."look at all those people in "the state's" kissing in public...if they werent a superpower we'd have a good mind to invade that crazy place and through all these filthy people in jail"
They dont get US we dont get them...certain issues we'll never see eye to eye on
Posted by glassman on :
I think that whole region has a whole lot of growing up to do.
i'm not sure that's the correct term...
Iraq is the geographical location of the cradle of western civilization...
Christianity was displaced there over 1000 years ago...
IMO? this is a perfect example of a people that have more wealth than they have earned... oil money is flowing in by an act of Allah... many of them truly believe this...
many see this as a sign that they are righteous...
Posted by rimasco on :
Sereously.....we need to lie low for a while....and figure out how to throw Canada under the bus....
All this technology is making the world wayyyy to small way to fast....
we need to recognize radio silence for a bit...not answer the phone....ya-know pretend we're not home. See how the other big boys react. I think it would be interesting
Posted by rimasco on :
change the number to the whitehouse....so when other countries call they get...."do-do-dehhhh the number you have reached is no longer in service"
Posted by glassman on :
Americans and Canadians seem to forget that we are the rejects of the established world civilizations...
before you get all hettup? think abut it...
we've all left established civilizations to come here...
and? we seem to "reinvent" ourselves every 20 years or so...
the "cultures" we are railing against were old before we declared independence..
Posted by retiredat49 on :
I'm a reject?
Posted by jordanreed on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Americans and Canadians seem to forget that we are the rejects of the established world civilizations...
before you get all hettup? think abut it...
we've all left established civilizations to come here...
and? we seem to "reinvent" ourselves every 20 years or so...
this deserves to be repeated
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by retiredat49: I'm a reject?
LOL ,yup, but not alone... Posted by retiredat49 on :
You are right Glass...just looked at my papers, and there it is in black & white...REJECT
Posted by bdgee on :
Personally, I'm quite proud to be a reject, in that sense.
But I'm absolutely ashamed of being part of a culture that can and wiil change every generation or so in order to make a better world, yet can't be generous enough or have enough respect to let other cultures evolve unhindered.
And it is impractical.
What we force on them becomes temporaary and becomes anathema, because it isn't their's.
Posted by rimasco on :
Anathema (in Greek Ανάθεμα) meaning originally something lifted up as an offering to the gods; later, with evolving meanings, it came to mean:
to be formally set apart, banished, exiled, excommunicated or denounced, sometimes accursed.
Posted by rimasco on :
Good word...im gonna use it on my neighbor shes off the boat from Italy and pretends to understand me....
"Looks like your squash has a case of ANATHEMA next to the brocoli-rabe patch"
Posted by bdgee on :
Be kind, rim, help the gal learn, not confuse her with vocabulary.....
Posted by turbokid on :
i saw the video a while back... horrible..
here it is *if* you want to see it.. i dont think i have to warn you that someone gets stoned to death in this video.. beware
Im kidden......shes alot older. has been here for many years and never really grasped the whole English thing...
But she doesnt seem to have a problem grasping a whole bunch of my bananna peppers without asking....
Posted by bdgee on :
Italian? Bananna peppers, huh?
Mix a couple of jalapenos in with a dozen or so of those and take them to her.
Posted by rimasco on :
LOL....They will eat anything....I take a head count on my koi pond every day. She was inquiring about my catfish one day. I was joking with her daughter telling her "she made me a little nervous"
Her daughter respondend by licking her fingers saying "ooohhhhh my god, my mutha cooks a MEAN catfish"
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Americans and Canadians seem to forget that we are the rejects of the established world civilizations...
before you get all hettup? think abut it...
we've all left established civilizations to come here...
and? we seem to "reinvent" ourselves every 20 years or so...
the "cultures" we are railing against were old before we declared independence..
ya...and is high time the reject/mutants "quarantine" the original geography.
Notice, am not saying "wipe out" or "turn sand into glass," ETC...
quarantine
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by rimasco: LOL....They will eat anything....I take a head count on my koi pond every day. She was inquiring about my catfish one day. I was joking with her daughter telling her "she made me a little nervous"
Her daughter respondend by licking her fingers saying "ooohhhhh my god, my mutha cooks a MEAN catfish"
send her down here to MS then Rim, i'm getting tired of corn-fed catfish, breaded in corn meal, and deep fried in corn oil...
it don't even taste like fish anymore...
PS: it was the same way in NE with the released trout..
and we used corn as bait too.. Posted by HILANDER on :
They were still practicing stoning in Saudi Arabia as well in the early 90's. A good friend of mine was deployed there and actually got to see 'em do it. Of course it was a bit different. The girls father walked up and cast the first ceremonial stone, if you will, then they backed up the dump truck and it was over. He also saw 'em toss a young lady off of a tower.
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: [/qb]
send her down here to MS then Rim, i'm getting tired of corn-fed catfish, breaded in corn meal, and deep fried in corn oil...
it don't even taste like fish anymore...
PS: it was the same way in NE with the released trout..
and we used corn as bait too.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Most of us round these part use olive-oil for all cooking....I guess its a grease-ball thang. Expensive but, once you taste it you know where the money went. Extra virgin even beter.
Im not too savy when it comes to fishing but, my neighbor was all happy that her son went out to jersey and caught a "drum fish". He said "Itza rare you catcha deesa fish ina deesa parts" He said the texture was like no other fish he had and he is teporarily in a'more.
Sorry im off topic....what can I say we drifted out to sea. I follow up with a diatribe.
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by HILANDER: They were still practicing stoning in Saudi Arabia as well in the early 90's. A good friend of mine was deployed there and actually got to see 'em do it. Of course it was a bit different. The girls father walked up and cast the first ceremonial stone, if you will, then they backed up the dump truck and it was over. He also saw 'em toss a young lady off of a tower.
Ummmmmm Yeah.... we should just leave them folks and their cro magnon man government alone.
When you got the father or brother out there casting the first stone....
Ill stop there....I dont want to throw stones....OOPS Posted by glassman on :
drum is the "carp" of the sea... i don't eat 'em... they have catfish farms dayown hyar, Catfish Farming and Mississippi have been synonymous terms since the late sixties. There are over 91,000 acres of catfish in Mississippi producing about 72 percent of the catfish produced nationally.
olive oil is for sauteeing... try deepfrying in it? and you'll have a house full of smoke...
i use three times as much olive oil here at home as anything else.. the next is peanut oil..now that you can get hot, and it tastes good... cotton oil can get even hotter, but i don't use it, and never have..
Posted by rimasco on :
Like I was saying they'll eat anything.
"olive oil is for sauteeing... try deepfrying in it? and you'll have a house full of smoke..."
I dont use a deepfryer but when I do fry I dont let it get smokin hot
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by turbokid: i saw the video a while back... horrible..
here it is *if* you want to see it.. i dont think i have to warn you that someone gets stoned to death in this video.. beware
Just watched the first half of the video....ummmmmm we dont belong there.... we dont belong anywhere near there....this seems to be their version of freedom and they dont want it any other way.
There were alot of people present... to think that her family was there as well...poor fcuking girl...
"God, If you exist? Could you please make sure this lynch-mob rots in HELL!" "A Hellfire missle will be suffice"...
Maybe he is talking to Dubya..... Posted by Machiavelli on :
Seriously anyone on this board who condones this act because it is the kurds/muslims culture and that we shouldn't interfere with their culture should be stoned themselves...
Muslims/kurds and other faiths in the middle east are nothing but savages and are not civilized humans... they deserve no mercy like they gave no mercy to that girl... say what you want about christianity, jewish and other religions around the world but they do not still live in the dark ages...
I like the idea that someone said that we should give women in danger of so called "honor killing" asylum in our embassies in these countries...
I hate to say it but if we didn't have christians (and it's various forms of methodists, baptists, etc.) governing this country and let Muslims be the majority, our own women would be in danger...
I don't know what version everyone saw of this video (i won't look at it again.. unlike others I watched the whole thing so it sunk in) but this is the one I saw that was posted in another forum (metal music that i frequent):
"Seriously anyone on this board who condones this act because it is the kurds/muslims culture and that we shouldn't interfere with their culture should be stoned themselves... "
Mach,
You seem to not be able to gather in and hold on to the idea that way of thinking is exactly the way they think of things we do normally and casually and that responding to us with that sort of violence is exactly their justification for to how to deal with things their culture condemns.
I know it isn't easy to accept that things we think nothing of, not good and not bad, are things they believe to be fundamental and naturally evil and against God's laws.
You are asking me to act in the same way as they do.
I cannot and will not be goaded into that sort of reaction, not by your exclaimation of hatred and disgust and not by your condemnation of me for not being just like you and not by any of any number of people, and not because of any kind of denunciation or threat whatever.
I will not!
"say what you want about christianity, jewish and other religions around the world but they do not still live in the dark ages... "
If you believe we are so advanced and so far above those people, then you've never watched little black children in rural Mississippi, scared and shaking in fear, drop their brand new Christmas toys and hide in a ditch because some strange white guy was driving by.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
"say what you want about christianity, jewish and other religions around the world but they do not still live in the dark ages... "
If you believe we are so advanced and so far above those people, then you've never watched little black children in rural Mississippi, scared and shaking in fear, drop their brand new Christmas toys and hide in a ditch because some strange white guy was driving by.
What does racism have to do with religion, culture or honor killing? ....
Posted by bdgee on :
hahahahaha
You just proved you have little understanding of the dregs of what too often calles itself "southern culture", where violently demonstrating hatred to becomes a requirement of "brotherhood".
Too, you posited that we (that's all of us) are not so backward as to be so intollerant of others. I provided a counter example.
(It may be racial to you, to those little black kids, it is a chance to avoid possibly becoming the victim of an honor killing and having the chance to grow up).
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Bdgee I have to agree with you on this one. The world is full of different cultures who behave in ways we don't and that's their right. We can't be the world monitor of behaviors or the judge. I'm also not too thrilled with someone spouting the goodness of Christianity and how its saving the U.S. That's a bunch of crap and I resent the implications of that too. Personally I think that whole religious righteousness is debilating. Just look how dubya is devastating the country and using his religious beliefs as justification.
However, I wouldn't easily compare the racism of some folks to the cultural norms of another.
Posted by bdgee on :
Most folks in Mississippi are kind and gentle.
But a tiny percentage bent on selfish evil (often in the name of some religion) can keep the masses in turmoil and fear and pack instinct can sweep up even the most generous and gentle into a vulgar display of physical violence.
There are more good things about Mississippi than bad things.
(The last several great race riots in this country (actually almost all of them, since it has only been since well into the 20th century that anyplace in the South had enough population to achieve rioting) happened in California, New York and Chicago. And don't forget it was racial rioting in New York that killed dosens of young black men who they said were resisting being drafted into the Union army during the civil war.)
Posted by Highwaychild on :
I wouldn't call the world of G.W., quite,,, Christianity... would you?
Posted by bdgee on :
No, not me either ....
I think he's more like an agent of the devil...a fascist devil.
Posted by T e x on :
"a fascist devil"
Yikeedity yike! Is there any other kind?
-----------
Hey...Sunnyside finds common ground with da Beedge--mark *that* on yer calendar, folks Posted by bdgee on :
Any other kind of which, fascist or devils?
Hunanity isn't confined by political parties, Tex......
Posted by glassman on :
it's been less than a hundred years since lynchings were too frequent in the south...
there are ways to end the senseless violence of honor killings and other things like that..
but Rosa Parks and Martin L. King didn't do it with a gun...
Ghandi didn't do it with a gun..
Nelson Mandella didn't do it with a gun...
i like my guns, but i know when to use them, and when to put them away...
Dubya had a real chance to make a significant difference in the mideast using the world mandate to "take" Afghanistan, and he blew it...
instead he has manged to do about as much as humanly possible to help al-queda recruit new members... note the date on this..
Can al-Qaeda�s Lebanese Expansion Be Stopped? By Emily Hunt February 6, 2006
As Israelis assess the implications of Hamas�s victory in January elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council, a new threat may be developing in Lebanon. Al-Qaeda�linked terrorists have been present in Lebanon for a decade, but recent statements by Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi suggest that the dual objectives of destabilizing Arab regimes and targeting Israel proper are becoming top al-Qaeda priorities. Al-Zarqawi�linked terrorists in Lebanon have already engaged in low-level targeting of Israeli and Lebanese interests, yet several obstacles may hinder their ability to launch significant attacks in or from Lebanon.
note also that al-queda was in Lebanon, but not in Iraq... where did Bush go again? ....
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Any other kind of which, fascist or devils?
Hunanity isn't confined by political parties, Tex......
not asking about humanity...am asking about da devil...lol, could be NAZI, I guess, but that's a pretty close slice on the deli-saw...
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Dubya had a real chance to make a significant difference in the mideast using the world mandate to "take" Afghanistan, and he blew it...
amen
Posted by glassman on :
Bush has to be the number one man in history to lose so much support so fast, and still be alive to experience it...
the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was behind him after 9-11..
now?
his best bet is to resign so people can (finally)start to feel sorry for him... NOT....
Posted by bdgee on :
"the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was behind him after 9-11" to go into Afganistan"
"now?"
After invading Iraq and neglecting Afganistan, the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was and is against him absolutely.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Bush has to be the number one man in history to lose so much support so fast, and still be alive to experience it...
the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was behind him after 9-11..
now?
his best bet is to resign so people can (finally)start to feel sorry for him... NOT....
Are you up on the Adamses' and Roosevelts' kith n kin histories? I'm not...
but those strike me as the only parallels, re family "dynasties"
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: hahahahaha
You just proved you have little understanding of the dregs of what too often calles itself "southern culture", where violently demonstrating hatred to becomes a requirement of "brotherhood".
Too, you posited that we (that's all of us) are not so backward as to be so intollerant of others. I provided a counter example.
(It may be racial to you, to those little black kids, it is a chance to avoid possibly becoming the victim of an honor killing and having the chance to grow up).
Please spell correctly if you are going to laugh at me about my own posting.
"Honor" killing in the Middle East is about the supposed "shame" put upon a family by a female member of that family... that is not the same to a KKK thug killing a black in the South where it's not about any type of shame put upon a family...
Killing a black in the KKK's world is equivalent to "making your bones" in the Mob... it is not about honor but about proving yourself to your superiors in that organization that you would be willing to commit a violent act such as murder for the "brotherhood" as well to prove your not a informant or gov't agent... so in that regards we are not backwards because the KKK is just another gang in the U.S. ala the Mob, Bloods/Crips etc. The general society as a whole in the U.S. do not go around killing our female relatives because they have been raped, had a affair (except husbands killing wives in a crime of passion), dated a person of a different religious faith or race (except of course such nice people like the KKK who do such things for hatred and not honor) etc. There have been very rare cases of "honor" killing in the U.S. (I watched a segment about this on NBC Dateline or one of those shows years ago) but they were committed by "surprise surprise" people of the Muslim faith (extremists no doubt & not usually U.S. born) or of Middle Eastern descent.
The so called "honor" killers in the Middle East are trying to undo a shame in their eyes...but really it is about control & humiliation of women in their society because you do not see "honor" killing of men who put shame on their family in that society...
Posted by T e x on :
quarantine
Posted by bdgee on :
"Please spell correctly if you are going to laugh at me about my own posting."
That is a foolish threat, Mach. You surely don't want or intend to turn this into a hotbed of "Grammarians Without Cause".
Again you fail to understand the screwed up psyche of that sliver of the society claiming (even believing) to stand up for the "honor" of the South, but really bringing it shame and nothing else.
Paraphrasing:
"Honor killing" in the segrationist South (and not there only, by the way) is about the supposed "shame" put upon the "God given honor of the White Race" by deviating from proper etiquette of racial separation and position,
but, in reality, it is about control and humiliation of blacks in their society
Again, I will not be goaded into joining a demand for hateful reactions, physical or otherwise, to what to me (us) are animalistic and sickening activities of another culture (and religion). ( I want no part of such actions of that culture, but also want no part in the animalistic and sickening reprisals you advocate or your claim that such reprisal is a proper cause of a Christian nation.)
(I won't delve into the grammer and punctuation of your post and will not keep a watch on your typos and spelling errors in some attempt to cast a note of superiority and make myself look better, so long as what you post is reasonably nderstandable. Even so, thank you for noting that my mis-spellings (tyops?) are hindering communication.)
I'm sorry you took my post to be making fun of your's. That was not my intent. I certainly believe your previous post was an advocacy of a dangerous and criminal attitude and do not, in any way, find that to be laughable.
Posted by jordanreed on :
I know that i felt horroble watching that... did you see where they pulled her dress back down to cover her panties? so ,its not about humiliation or degradation of women. but its that loss of honor thingy. Richard Gere-head kisses that woman and they get all over him..but then ,more or less, drop it. to me,,it was sick..but ...we're a different culture.
Posted by bdgee on :
How in hell can we expect to fathom the sexual mores of a culture that still practices the buying and selling of brides, often when they are only infants?
You didn't know?
Exactly what did you think a dower was?
They have as little concept of what we think is right as we do of what they think is right.
Posted by cottonjim on :
Quote by bdgee:"They have as little concept of what we think is right as we do of what they think is right."
So we're over there trying to kill them for what they think is right, while they are trying to kill as many of "us" as they can for not doing what they think is right. It's a perfect circle.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
It's not about who thinks who is right. It is about what IS right, and I'm sorry, but whether or not some choose to accept it, it is self-evident that the practice of stoning someone to death is NOT RIGHT, and any person, culture or religion that condones it IS WRONG.
Trying to excuse it as a cultural difference and suggesting it is not our place to interfere is almost as disgusting and sick as being in that crowd and standing idly by while this girl was brutally murdered.
Posted by glassman on :
they aren't just "idly" standing by... they are actively participating and encouraging the behaviour..
i'm sorry to say this, but, i don't think you guys really understand what's going on...
these people aren't gonna change any more than the KKK did..
the KKK had lynch MOBS.. it wasn't a "hit" like making your bones.. it was the KLAN, as in clan..
it permeates the culture... and trust me when i say this: the klan is still alive, quiet? yes, but still very much alive... google the name Killen...
also? look up C of CC..
these things represent cultural norms that literally take generations to change... and cultures can revert back in days if not monitored closely...
Posted by bond006 on :
This plain sick how can any people call themselves human when society do this what happened here.
Sick people sick lives.
We should distance ourselves from them
Posted by ruthie on :
NaturalResources, You are exactly right on with your post. Evil is evil, plain and simple. There are heartless people all over this world unfortunately, and when any part of society condones such practices, it is a disgrace on humanity.
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim: Quote by bdgee:"They have as little concept of what we think is right as we do of what they think is right."
So we're over there trying to kill them for what they think is right, while they are trying to kill as many of "us" as they can for not doing what they think is right. It's a perfect circle.
No, we're over there trying to kill them for Bush. (Clearly, he doesn't think, so any question as to what he thinks about it is a stupid one.)
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: It's not about who thinks who is right. It is about what IS right, and I'm sorry, but whether or not some choose to accept it, it is self-evident that the practice of stoning someone to death is NOT RIGHT, and any person, culture or religion that condones it IS WRONG.
Trying to excuse it as a cultural difference and suggesting it is not our place to interfere is almost as disgusting and sick as being in that crowd and standing idly by while this girl was brutally murdered.
There are various ways of performing capital punishment.
Posted by Ramius on :
I am in NO WAY condoning or supporting, or making excuses for this horrible event, but I do have a question...
Didn't the girl know the risk when she decided to hook up with the boy from another religion???
Posted by bdgee on :
Yes, you make an excellent point, Ram...
Like Fat Rush the Doper always said, you do the crime, you do the time.
(Actually, having survived that stage of life, looking back, I doubt anyone really "knows" what is at risk or could keep from following the urges of what feels to be all forgiving "true romance". True love always wins in the long run, you know....otherwise, God wouldn't have created it.)
Posted by cottonjim on :
So I am curious now, I don't know so I am going to ask. Now that this girl was murdered (in accordance with the quran) is she now clean and able to enter heaven to be one of the seven virgins waiting for terrorist martrys that kill non-believers in Alah's name? Her body was exumed to prove that she was a virgin. Or is this poor girl doomed to a etenity of torment in hell because of her actions on earth. (if you believe that kind of thing)
Posted by bdgee on :
I'v never heard anything to cause me to believe that women were to be anything in a Moslem version of Heaven that they weren't beforehand in the Moslem world.
Frankly, I couldn't consider that a heavenly existance.
But, Then, I'm not too fond of the notions I hear claimed for the christian version either.
(On that, I'm not too sparated from Samuel L. Clemens. I doubt that he is 100% correct, but he had a near 100% correct attitude about it. If you want to know what sort of thinking I approve of and how I think and what about, give yourself a start by reading Letters from the Earth. It won't provide a full and complete course in the subject, though, just a start.)
Posted by cottonjim on :
I am not to "up" on what the Muslim version of heaven is supposed to be either. I can't imagine, that for such a male dominated society, the women look to forward to getting into heaven if it is going to be the same.
Right now, I am content to find my own little slice of heaven here in earth, and I think that's pretty much it. Maybe thats why I just can't fathom anyone blowing themselves up for the good of their religion, and to get into Heaven. Sad to say, but I think they are just plain dead, along with their (sometimes)innocent victoms.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: It's not about who thinks who is right. It is about what IS right, and I'm sorry, but whether or not some choose to accept it, it is self-evident that the practice of stoning someone to death is NOT RIGHT, and any person, culture or religion that condones it IS WRONG.
Trying to excuse it as a cultural difference and suggesting it is not our place to interfere is almost as disgusting and sick as being in that crowd and standing idly by while this girl was brutally murdered.
There are various ways of performing capital punishment.
Yeah, I'm really sure they gave her a fair trial before they executed their "capital punishment".... The fact that you would even suggest this incident was such a thing is frankly, quite sickening.
Posted by turbokid on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Bush has to be the number one man in history to lose so much support so fast, and still be alive to experience it...
the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was behind him after 9-11..
now?
exactly glass.. remember bush meeting with various islamic leaders from everywhere condeming the 911 atttacks?
we blew it.. do you think when we get hit again we will have the same kind of outpour of sympathy? i dont.
i think the prince of saudi arabia had it right after 911 when he said america should "reexamine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance towards the Palestinian cause," this is of course after he donated 10 million to the state of new york. Rudy Giuliani gave it back after that comment BTW
Posted by bdgee on :
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources:
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: It's not about who thinks who is right. It is about what IS right, and I'm sorry, but whether or not some choose to accept it, it is self-evident that the practice of stoning someone to death is NOT RIGHT, and any person, culture or religion that condones it IS WRONG.
Trying to excuse it as a cultural difference and suggesting it is not our place to interfere is almost as disgusting and sick as being in that crowd and standing idly by while this girl was brutally murdered.
There are various ways of performing capital punishment.
Yeah, I'm really sure they gave her a fair trial before they executed their "capital punishment".... The fact that you would even suggest this incident was such a thing is frankly, quite sickening.
Just as there are various ways of performing capital punishment, there are various things believed to be fair (not to mention right) from culture to culture and religion to religion (some of them right here in good old all-American River City, by the way).
Often, those varying beliefs are in utter conflict.
Sometimes, in one culture or religion, a particular act is thought to be an honorable expression of ones awe to God's principles, while in another it is considered the act of a demented madman.
I know of people who would personally and eagerly lop off the genetals of one they believed guilty of a sexual deviation (whatever the hell "deviation" means), provided they could get others to hold the object of their hate down while he did it and I know of other people that would, while refusing to take part themselves, would pin hero's medals on the ones that did. (And yes, I realize you are included in that collection of emotion before reason and rationality and hate warrants and excuses expression.)
I am not one that is foolish enough to offer to rape our system of justice, with its dependence on proof and the good will of men, by crying for henious crimes against nature to be done to even those "proved" guilty through the courts. (Actually, the word prooved" as used in legal proceedings DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME thing as the word "proved" used elsewhere.)
Justice, in order to be justice, must not only be blind, but deaf to cries for vengence and appeals to harm, even if it is a majority of the people (that are supposed to be enjoying the protected of the notion of "no cruel and unusual (or unnecessary) "punishment"), so crying.
Almost always, attmpts at justice handed out without patience and unemotional diligence to the need for justice and, in the case of the particular means of carrying out justice, the long term effects on the society do real and lasting damage to the culture and the people it should have been protecting.
(Each black man falsely convicted of a rape from the emotiunal cries of a confused victim and well intentioned friends and family of the victim has guaranteed a real and guilty rapist has been provided freedom from justice.)
Posted by NaturalResources on :
I think you are missing the point Bdgee... Certian things ARE NOT SUBJECTIVE, and therefore transcend the beliefs that any particular culture or society may have.
It is not about what is THOUGHT to be fair. It is about what IS fair, and you and I both know this girl was not given a "fair" trial in any sense of the word, for a "crime" that, by any standard, should not be considered a "crime".
Unfortunately, there seem to be many that have trouble understanding what the meaning of the word IS is.....
Posted by glassman on :
NR, i can give you dozens of examples of unfair trials right here in America, from last year alone...
we are not so far advanced....
i often hear conservatives claim "liberal judges" and the system favor the criminals, but i can show you one of the most atrocious miscarriages of justice right here in America in a very conservative community, and it was in the 90's..
Bob Kelly
Each defendant was tried separately with Bob Kelly the first to go to trial. Testimony lasted nine months with 12 children providing descriptions of sexual and physical abuse: babies ritualistically killed, victims taken out on boats and thrown overboard, and inappropriate trips in hot air balloons. After a three-weeks of jury deliberation, Kelly was found guilty on 99 out of 100 counts. He was sentenced to 12 consecutive life terms in prison.
Summary: In excess of 90 children accused a total of 20 adults with 429 instances of child sexual abuse in a day care center in Edenton NC. Among the alleged perpetrators were the sheriff and mayor. Allegations included a baby killed with a hand gun, a child being hung upside down from a tree and being set on fire. Nobody in town noticed a baby missing. Needless to say, charges were never laid against the mayor or sheriff.
no physical evidence that any actual abuse or killing happened.
hysteria by the parents, investigators and general public.
lack of evidence which would have been present if the children had actually been abused.
the alleged abuse happened even as parents were coming to and fro during the day; nobody noticed anything strange at the day care center.
the children initially denied that anything "funny" happened at the day care; but the interviewers did not believe the children.
after months of extensive interviewing, using what are now known to be manipulative, suggestive techniques, children started to disclose abuse events. This was assisted by communications among parents who also grilled their children
all of the documentation and tapes of the children's initial interviews were lost or destroyed.
testimony described a long string of physically impossible or highly improbable events
nobody seems to have asked the logical question: how could 7 to 20 adults form a conspiracy and abuse children hundreds of times, without any child complaining or without any parent noticing something amiss?
During the winter of 1988-1989, Edenton police attended a Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) seminar. The first allegation of abuse followed shortly afterwards. One theory is that the first mention of abuse followed the accidental hitting of a child at the day care; another story has the first allegation following intensive questioning of a child by his mother under the guidance of a SRA course attendee.
Day-Care Owner Is Convicted of Child Molesting. The longest and costliest criminal trial ever held in North Carolina ended today when the owner of a day-care center was convicted on 99 of 100 charges of sexually abusing 12 children there. After 14 days of deliberating, a Pitt County Superior Court jury found the 44-year-old defendant, Robert F. Kelly Jr., guilty of 4 counts of rape, 46 of taking indecent liberties, 36 of first-degree sexual offense and 13 crimes against nature. He was acquitted only of a single charge of taking indecent liberties with one of the 12 children.
a panel of judges finally overturned everything...
the difference is these "defendants" weren't lynched...
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Glass, I understand we are not perfect, and I'm not suggesting we are. You are right, there are many examples of unfair trials right here in the US, and we have quite a way to go before we even begin to live up to the truths our western society were founded on.
However, that still doesn't make what happened to this girl right or fair, nor does it mean that the perpetrators of the REAL crime, murder, should be excused on the grounds of a being from a culture that does not recognize self-evident truths.
As I've said many times before, just because western cultures may be hypocrites in many cases, doesn't mean we are automatically wrong, nor does it mean we should keep quite or refrain from action when we see injustice being perpetrated to anyone, anywhere.
Using "cultural diversity" as an means to suggest the actions of others cannot be judged by those outside of or lacking understanding of any given culture, is rediculus and illogical.
Posted by glassman on :
i'm not suggesting what these people did was right or correct, what i am suggesting is that he/she who is without sin should cast the first stone..
this is the problem we are really facing in the mideast..
it's not that we have no business over there, it's about casting stones... or how we approach the problem...
we are in Iraq for a long time to come, and somebody needs to figure out what will work...
the longer this goes on? the more convinced i am that Iraq has to be divided into smaller peices...
our society is not "built" to handle the brutality that it's going to take to settle the problems that Bush created...
Sadam was as much a product of his own culture as he was a "maker" of culture...
Posted by bdgee on :
NR, you are trying again to play in a league for which you haven't the skills.
In support I provide excerpts for the usages of "subjective" from two dictionaries
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) sub·jec·tive /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective). 2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. 3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric. 4. Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself. 5. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
American Heritage Dictionary sub·jec·tive (səb-jěk'tĭv) Pronunciation Key adj.
1. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision. 2. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience. 2. Moodily introspective. 3. Existing only in the mind; illusory. 4. Psychology Existing only within the experiencer's mind.
Note that the overwhelming universal and underlying character of all those usages of "subjective" is that it is a personal condition of a person's (or group persons') mind. i.e., a belief and nothing else.
To furthur demonstrate that you are blowing wind rather than thought, I offer two dictionary's usages for "belief" and point out that they uniformilly announce that "belief" is subjective...that it is a thing "thought" to be true ranther than something that "is rigidly and universally true or factual".
American Heritage Dictionary be·lief (bĭ-lēf') Pronunciation Key n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something 3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. 3. confidence; faith; trust. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith.
Indeed, as is demonstrated by the actual formal and documented usages of "subjective" and "belief", contrary to your expousal and demand, they each parallel the other and do not exist independently and, each does not exist except as ideas.
Moreover, what constitutes "fair" or "guilt" as well as the requirements to "believe in fairness and guilt" are not universal truths and certainly are not facts. (I am quite capable of producing the formal usages of these terms and phrases too, which clearly demonstrate that you will not or can not use them correctly. That desire of yours to warp anything into a personal and political insult and attack at work, of course.)
In my mind, that girl was treated horribly and inhumanely, with respect to the standards of my own culture and beliefs. However, having known a number of Moslems quite well over the years and having "discussed" religious and cultural feelings with them (including the proprieties of legal systems and force and punishment), I can state that, absolutely they believe that we are committing a deadly sin by what they describe as "forcing" females to go about half naked and susseptable to the evil thoughts (and, to them, necessarilly resultant physical abuses) of men.
Many of those Muslems were fine and generous people, who accepted that they simply were not capable (or maybe unwilling) of understanding our mores (or us theirs), but a very few, like you, demanded that their "beliefs" and "religious teachings" are fact, not beliefs, and must be forced on others, whatever the force required and whatever the harm to others or those others' beliefs and religions. Like you, they were driven by the comfort of egotistical rigidity and the assurance from innocence due to ignorance. (And like you, a worship of a backward political agenda.)
I do not object to you holding religious or political "beliefs" differing from mind, but I do object strongly to your demand that I must abandon my own rationale and beliefs in order to adopt the fundamental regidity of yours, which is clearly and openly based on bigotry and ill-formed hate. And I object to your similar demand when, in that last sentence "me" is replaced by any other person or group of persons.
THAT DEMAND IS NOT YOUR RIGHT AND IT IS A DISGUSTING INSULT! Posted by NaturalResources on :
Glass, do you have any children? If so, you should understand why sometimes it is necessary to "cast the first stone", even when you are "with sin". Think about what kind of place this world would be if the US never did acted because we were "with sin", or worried about being seen as a hippocrate...
I know you are not trying to advocate total complacency when it comes to stopping injustice against humankind, but where do you draw the line between when you act and when you don't? How do you reach a balance between taking time to come up with the proper approach vs. acting quickly to save lives?
Posted by bdgee on :
Somewhere between respect and damnation?
That's a lot of ground to be insisting only damnation is acceptable.
Posted by NaturalResources on :
Thanks for the English lesson Bdgee..... I guess you have proven I put no thought into my comments and therefore anything I say can be ignored. Posted by jordanreed on :
I am not here to tell other cultures, with different beliefs, that they are wrong. not my job, not gonna do it. That would be wrong.
Posted by glassman on :
Think about what kind of place this world would be if the US never did acted because we were "with sin", or worried about being seen as a hippocrate...
not only do i have kids, but i encourage joining the military to them and their friends ...
you still don't get it. we have no way to "change" cultures.. look what it took to free the slaves in our own country, that was done 140 years ago... and i can tell you we still have along way to go on race issues here in the US..
the more you try to change the culture in the mideast the way we are doing it right now? the more terrorists we will have...
as i said earlier? Mandella? King, Ghandi? and yes, even Jesus, they CHANGE cultures... the military is for killing, and sometimes that needs to be done...
i'm not against killing my/our enemies, but i know better than to stand on top of the dung heap and INVITE more....
Posted by NaturalResources on :
You are correct, we have no way to force them to "change cultures" but we can use other methods, including the threat of force to influence them, just as you do with a child. Still, sometimes even that does not work, and indeed most often the desire to change must come from within, often as the result of negative personal experiences. I agree with you that it is no easy or quickly accomplished task, as evidenced with the United States own struggle with slavery, but rather just making clear the point that we can have some influence through one means or another, and shouldn't take an attitude of complacency.
With the exception of Jesus, who BTW, did not see a change in culture during his lifetime, your other examples of men who have brought about "changed" through non-violence were only able to do so because those who were oppressing them were of a western society. Mandella, King and Ghandi would probably not have been successful in a society in which those who oppose the status quo get run over by tanks, lined up next to a trench and shot, or drug out into the streets and stoned to death.
Posted by bdgee on :
You just can't (or won't) handle the either the logic or the psychology.
Cultures change according to their whims, not outside influences. The threat of force is force and only forces a culture to bolster its uncompromising inate defenses against outside interference. That is proved by the reactions of the masses bombed in Germany and England and Japan during WWII, who rected with previously unheard of patriotism and resolve.
Just how do you know, NR, oh great champian of proclaiming falsities and ignoring truths that were not presented to him in elementary school or childrens sunday school class, that there have been no isomers of a King or a Ghandi or a Mandella? (I can present two candidates for that role for you from very recent history: Ben Laden and Lawrance. Each of whome awoke the cultural pride of the Arab lands. One succeded overwhelmingly and the other certainly hasn't lost any stature in his culture.)
Posted by Machiavelli on :
ok.. i been gone for a couple of days and everyone or most people and especially Bdgee gets everything wrong lol ill reply each of the posts that interest me one by one...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: NR, you are trying again to play in a league for which you haven't the skills.
In support I provide excerpts for the usages of "subjective" from two dictionaries
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) sub·jec·tive /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective). 2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. 3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric. 4. Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself. 5. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
American Heritage Dictionary sub·jec·tive (səb-jěk'tĭv) Pronunciation Key adj.
1. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision. 2. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience. 2. Moodily introspective. 3. Existing only in the mind; illusory. 4. Psychology Existing only within the experiencer's mind.
Note that the overwhelming universal and underlying character of all those usages of "subjective" is that it is a personal condition of a person's (or group persons') mind. i.e., a belief and nothing else.
To furthur demonstrate that you are blowing wind rather than thought, I offer two dictionary's usages for "belief" and point out that they uniformilly announce that "belief" is subjective...that it is a thing "thought" to be true ranther than something that "is rigidly and universally true or factual".
American Heritage Dictionary be·lief (bĭ-lēf') Pronunciation Key n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something 3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. 3. confidence; faith; trust. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith.
Indeed, as is demonstrated by the actual formal and documented usages of "subjective" and "belief", contrary to your expousal and demand, they each parallel the other and do not exist independently and, each does not exist except as ideas.
Moreover, what constitutes "fair" or "guilt" as well as the requirements to "believe in fairness and guilt" are not universal truths and certainly are not facts. (I am quite capable of producing the formal usages of these terms and phrases too, which clearly demonstrate that you will not or can not use them correctly. That desire of yours to warp anything into a personal and political insult and attack at work, of course.)
In my mind, that girl was treated horribly and inhumanely, with respect to the standards of my own culture and beliefs. However, having known a number of Moslems quite well over the years and having "discussed" religious and cultural feelings with them (including the proprieties of legal systems and force and punishment), I can state that, absolutely they believe that we are committing a deadly sin by what they describe as "forcing" females to go about half naked and susseptable to the evil thoughts (and, to them, necessarilly resultant physical abuses) of men.
Many of those Muslems were fine and generous people, who accepted that they simply were not capable (or maybe unwilling) of understanding our mores (or us theirs), but a very few, like you, demanded that their "beliefs" and "religious teachings" are fact, not beliefs, and must be forced on others, whatever the force required and whatever the harm to others or those others' beliefs and religions. Like you, they were driven by the comfort of egotistical rigidity and the assurance from innocence due to ignorance. (And like you, a worship of a backward political agenda.)
I do not object to you holding religious or political "beliefs" differing from mind, but I do object strongly to your demand that I must abandon my own rationale and beliefs in order to adopt the fundamental regidity of yours, which is clearly and openly based on bigotry and ill-formed hate. And I object to your similar demand when, in that last sentence "me" is replaced by any other person or group of persons.
THAT DEMAND IS NOT YOUR RIGHT AND IT IS A DISGUSTING INSULT!
I find it funny that someone who is atrocious at spelling is giving someone else (Natural Resources) a lesson in grammar. Especially after he tried to reprimand me for doing the same to him (Bdgee). Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim: So I am curious now, I don't know so I am going to ask. Now that this girl was murdered (in accordance with the quran) is she now clean and able to enter heaven to be one of the seven virgins waiting for terrorist martrys that kill non-believers in Alah's name? Her body was exumed to prove that she was a virgin. Or is this poor girl doomed to a etenity of torment in hell because of her actions on earth. (if you believe that kind of thing)
The girl was not Muslim, she was Kurdish and her religion is/was Yazidi... her bf was Sunni Muslim... you not knowing this is ok Cotton Jim but Bdgee who is preaching to us and doesn't know this and thought she was muslim and such is too funny...
Ok another point... this "honor" killing was not done in the name of religion... it is a cultural thing for the middle east no matter what your religion is... this was pointed out to me in another site and forum that I'm debating this killing about.. it's apparently on alot of forums.. but anyways it was a cultural thing regardless of what religion they practice... and you don't have to believe me but all of us should educate ourselves about the middle eastern culture before we speak about this issue (me included but im learning)... Especially our little "special" friend Bdgee... here's the other proof (you christians can have a drink after this):
this "honor" killing was not done in the name of religion... it is a cultural thing for the middle east no matter what your religion is..
uh, i beleive i pointed that out the the other day too..
it's done in India and Africa too..
and using this kind of stuff to justify invading other nations is as crazy as the people doing it..
"standing around and doing nothing about it" ? what can we do? offer asylum here?
that is possible, but difficult, and i bet people would follow them here and still do it...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I do not object to you holding religious or political "beliefs" differing from mind, but I do object strongly to your demand that I must abandon my own rationale and beliefs in order to adopt the fundamental regidity of yours, which is clearly and openly based on bigotry and ill-formed hate. And I object to your similar demand when, in that last sentence "me" is replaced by any other person or group of persons.
THAT DEMAND IS NOT YOUR RIGHT AND IT IS A DISGUSTING INSULT!
You really are in your own little world... You always object to anyone's beliefs that are different from yours especially political beliefs... thats why you always rant and rave at everyone on these boards...
And really no one cares what you do much less try to make you abandon your beliefs and such... you flatter yourself too much to think we care about you... the world and much less this forum does not revolve around you... never has and never will... the biggest narcissistic person I ever seen on a forum... lol
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: this "honor" killing was not done in the name of religion... it is a cultural thing for the middle east no matter what your religion is..
uh, i beleive i pointed that out the the other day too..
it's done in India and Africa too..
and using this kind of stuff to justify invading other nations is as crazy as the people doing it..
"standing around and doing nothing about it" ? what can we do? offer asylum here?
that is possible, but difficult, and i bet people would follow them here and still do it...
I never said we should invade other nations over Honor Killing... nor do I think Bush (whom i hate) claims to be doing so... we cannot do anything about it other then influence the puppet gov't of current Iraq to pass a law outlawing the practice and giving a stiff sentence of either Life without parole or Capital punishment since the latter seems to be a accepted form of punishment in the Middle East for other crimes... This will not eradicate it at all but it would be a beginning.. something like this will take generations or hundreds of years to eradicate...when the older generation dies out and the newer generation can hopefully rethink/reeducate themselves to think this practice is wrong...
I agree with giving females asylum at our embassies around the world and relocate them somewhere else... If we can relocate witnesses in Mob trials successfully then we can also in theory do the same for these women... some do not even need to go into hiding when they relocate because these people do not follow them... a perfect example is the woman in the movie Not Without My Daughter... she was a American woman married to a Iranian who escaped Iran and him to come back to America... She and her daughter are living out in the open and no one has tried anything on them... Not to say some won't try but it would be very difficult for them to...
btw Glass I didn't mean you when I said this was a cultural thing and not a religious thing... I meant our little special narcissistic friend Bdgee and anyone else not sure about details...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by T e x:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Bush has to be the number one man in history to lose so much support so fast, and still be alive to experience it...
the whole world (other than, literally, a handful of countries) was behind him after 9-11..
now?
his best bet is to resign so people can (finally)start to feel sorry for him... NOT....
Are you up on the Adamses' and Roosevelts' kith n kin histories? I'm not...
but those strike me as the only parallels, re family "dynasties"
Don't forget the Kennedy's my friend...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: I know that i felt horroble watching that... did you see where they pulled her dress back down to cover her panties? so ,its not about humiliation or degradation of women. but its that loss of honor thingy. Richard Gere-head kisses that woman and they get all over him..but then ,more or less, drop it. to me,,it was sick..but ...we're a different culture.
Actually her pants or whatever she was wearing in the house was dragged off of her to expose her panties etc. to humiliate her during the half hour of beating and stoning.. it was after she was dead and the so called honor restored that they covered her...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "Please spell correctly if you are going to laugh at me about my own posting."
That is a foolish threat, Mach. You surely don't want or intend to turn this into a hotbed of "Grammarians Without Cause".
Again you fail to understand the screwed up psyche of that sliver of the society claiming (even believing) to stand up for the "honor" of the South, but really bringing it shame and nothing else.
Paraphrasing:
"Honor killing" in the segrationist South (and not there only, by the way) is about the supposed "shame" put upon the "God given honor of the White Race" by deviating from proper etiquette of racial separation and position,
but, in reality, it is about control and humiliation of blacks in their society
Again, I will not be goaded into joining a demand for hateful reactions, physical or otherwise, to what to me (us) are animalistic and sickening activities of another culture (and religion). ( I want no part of such actions of that culture, but also want no part in the animalistic and sickening reprisals you advocate or your claim that such reprisal is a proper cause of a Christian nation.)
(I won't delve into the grammer and punctuation of your post and will not keep a watch on your typos and spelling errors in some attempt to cast a note of superiority and make myself look better, so long as what you post is reasonably nderstandable. Even so, thank you for noting that my mis-spellings (tyops?) are hindering communication.)
I'm sorry you took my post to be making fun of your's. That was not my intent. I certainly believe your previous post was an advocacy of a dangerous and criminal attitude and do not, in any way, find that to be laughable.
Again you are in your own little world thinking that a racial killing in the South is the same as Honor Killing in the Middle East... the end result is the same... murder/death but the motivations are totally different... when a racist/white supremacist kills a black person it's not because of any perceived honor but because of their racial hatred and to not be ridiculed by their "brotherhood"... peer pressure really...
honor killing in the middle east really is because they think their family is "dishonored" or "shamed" ... at least in their small warped little minds... but really and I have no doubt about this it is about the control & humiliation of women because you do not hear or see "honor" killings of men who shame their families... when they perceive that a woman in their family cannot be controlled they come up with this "shame" on the family thing and the right to do a honor killing.. which is of course BS... it's about control and as a warning to other women if they do not do as they are told by the men in their family... I doubt very much that if that girl was a boy and "he" was dating a sunni muslim girl that this video would even exist because it would not have happened... the most that would happen is that the family would probably disown "him"...
btw I didn't make any threat so please take your medication because your mental instability is clouding your mind... and I am not advocating any criminal attitude whatsoever...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: It's not about who thinks who is right. It is about what IS right, and I'm sorry, but whether or not some choose to accept it, it is self-evident that the practice of stoning someone to death is NOT RIGHT, and any person, culture or religion that condones it IS WRONG.
Trying to excuse it as a cultural difference and suggesting it is not our place to interfere is almost as disgusting and sick as being in that crowd and standing idly by while this girl was brutally murdered.
+1
Posted by glassman on :
hey Mach, i can tell you never lived in the south...
there are many similarities when you start analysing the fundamanetal issues..
many, many lynchings were over inter-racial relationships...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
No I never lived in the south but I do not need to because the bottom line is the lynchings are/were done for racial hatred while Honor Killings in Middle East are done for various reasons that bring "shame" to the family such as when a girl is raped by a family member or another person... they are "honor" killed because they must of provoked the rape or didn't do enough to stop it...hence bring "shame" to the family... just to give a example of a honor killing other then the Kurdish girl's killing...both are about control & humiliation of women... Western thought is not the same as Eastern thought...
but just to humor you... lynchings in the south that are done due to a inter-racial relationship are not always done by the girl's parents or family... but just by KKK or racist thugs who are looking for a excuse/reason to kill a black person... again it's due to racial hatred and not "shame" on a family...
Posted by Sunnyside on :
Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I think this honor killing/stoning is vile, barbaric, and whatever other negative connotation you care to use.
However, I think the main point is that events in themselves are neutral. The negative or positive perspective comes from each individual's prejudices and biases based on their cultural upbringing, religious beliefs, and societal norms.
On the flip side of this debate: Do you believe that the people of the Middle East have the right to demand that U.S. citizens suffer consequences at their hand for actions they believe are vile and barbaric?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Most folks in Mississippi are kind and gentle.
But a tiny percentage bent on selfish evil (often in the name of some religion) can keep the masses in turmoil and fear and pack instinct can sweep up even the most generous and gentle into a vulgar display of physical violence.
There are more good things about Mississippi than bad things.
(The last several great race riots in this country (actually almost all of them, since it has only been since well into the 20th century that anyplace in the South had enough population to achieve rioting) happened in California, New York and Chicago. And don't forget it was racial rioting in New York that killed dosens of young black men who they said were resisting being drafted into the Union army during the civil war.)
They killed the blacks because they blamed them for the Civil War which led to the drafts (especially on the irish immigrants)...
more good things in Miss then bad? like what? Casinos? Posted by cottonjim on :
Good gawd Mach, taking care of buidness today aren't you, geepers Posted by Machiavelli on :
making up for lost time in the last two days lol on another note here is another example of Eastern thought of the woman getting punished while the male doesn't... something wrong with this picture as well since it was he who filmed it and had possession of it not her.. she lucky she not in countries that impose the death penalty for such things in the Middle East:
"They killed the blacks because they blamed them for the Civil War which led to the drafts (especially on the irish immigrants)..."
A prize example of utter bigotry and complete lack of knowledge.
"more good things in Miss then bad? like what? Casinos?"
Followed by a second.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: No I never lived in the south but I do not need to because the bottom line is the lynchings are/were done for racial hatred while Honor Killings in Middle East are done for various reasons that bring "shame" to the family such as when a girl is raped by a family member or another person... they are "honor" killed because they must of provoked the rape or didn't do enough to stop it...hence bring "shame" to the family... just to give a example of a honor killing other then the Kurdish girl's killing...both are about control & humiliation of women... Western thought is not the same as Eastern thought...
but just to humor you... lynchings in the south that are done due to a inter-racial relationship are not always done by the girl's parents or family... but just by KKK or racist thugs who are looking for a excuse/reason to kill a black person... again it's due to racial hatred and not "shame" on a family...
So are you saying that racism is excusable because of the underlying motives but sexism is a rallying point? Plenty of black men were killed by fathers and brothers of daughters who shamed their families by being with a black man. Sounds like control and humiliation of black men. And wasn't this act based on sectarian hatred?
Its the brutality of either act that is the issue. And there certainly is alot of brutality in the U.S., along with sexism, and racism. Who do you choose to monitor us?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
instead of calling me a bigot with a complete lack of knowledge try to counter my statement and disprove it... or are you going to go on one of your rants and raves about how I don't agree with your narcissistic mind...
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside:
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: No I never lived in the south but I do not need to because the bottom line is the lynchings are/were done for racial hatred while Honor Killings in Middle East are done for various reasons that bring "shame" to the family such as when a girl is raped by a family member or another person... they are "honor" killed because they must of provoked the rape or didn't do enough to stop it...hence bring "shame" to the family... just to give a example of a honor killing other then the Kurdish girl's killing...both are about control & humiliation of women... Western thought is not the same as Eastern thought...
but just to humor you... lynchings in the south that are done due to a inter-racial relationship are not always done by the girl's parents or family... but just by KKK or racist thugs who are looking for a excuse/reason to kill a black person... again it's due to racial hatred and not "shame" on a family...
So are you saying that racism is excusable because of the underlying motives but sexism is a rallying point? Plenty of black men were killed by fathers and brothers of daughters who shamed their families by being with a black man. Sounds like control and humiliation of black men. And wasn't this act based on sectarian hatred?
Its the brutality of either act that is the issue. And there certainly is alot of brutality in the U.S., along with sexism, and racism. Who do you choose to monitor us?
You make it sound like I condone either one and I don't . I merely pointing out that they are two different motivations and what happens in the south is not about honor but about hatred. There is no Western thought really about honor like the way the East thinks about honor.
Both are brutal but you do not see the white father/brother dragging his daughter/sister out into the street to kill her because she brought shame to their family by being with a black man. What you do see is a lynch mob ,sometimes not her family, dragging a black man to a tree and hanging him. One is racial and one is perceived honor but you are correct that both are about control. Putting the female and the blacks in their place in their respective situations so to speak. Just don't preach that what happens in the south is about honor when it's really motivated by racial hatred.
The main difference is in modern times you now do life or a long sentence and sometimes even get the death penalty in the South for the killing of a black while in the Middle East you'll get 6 months or 2 years at the most for Honor Killing because they do not perceive it as a crime and are backwards in their thinking. They somewhat still live in the 13th century with that regards. Hell you can get your head chopped off literally for having a dime bag of pot in Saudia Arabia.
Honor Killing in the Middle East will not be eradicated for generations if ever so what they need to do is make the punishments more severe (currently 6 months????)to perhaps deter it and make people think twice before doing it. Life without parole and/or the death penalty.If it just saves one innocent woman's life it would be worth it.
Posted by Sunnyside on :
I'm not preaching. I'm just wondering why the motivation makes the difference. They're both based on hatred and control. They are both barbaric and brutal. And...?
I don't think anyone in American society needs to be convinced that these honor killings are atrocities regardless of motivation. So...?
My problem is that it appears that some are suggesting that we (the U.S.) somehow step in and some how assign consequences.
Again, who do you assign to monitor us and give consequences for what they perceive as our aggregious acts?
Posted by bdgee on :
hahahaha
I don't play that silly game.
What skewed attempt at construeing history assumes that, whoever "they" might be, used or needed any reason to attack and kill the black men, other than being racial bigots? Did someone collect affidavits from all the the rioters and find each gave exactly that as a reason?
Since it is clear that the rioters were in violation of very serious laws, if they were forced, by whatever even shame, to explain their actions, why would the tell the truth, if they knew it, and why would anyone expect they would or counld?
Anyway, isn't blaming a race for someting you don't like, then acting with deadly force to punish them for the presumed wrong bias and isn't accepting that as an excuse or explanation for something so utterly wrong equally biased?
A rhetorical question to infer the assertion that there is nothing good in Mississippi does demonstrate pure bias......that's what bigotry is, pure and unadultrated bias.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: hahahaha
I don't play that silly game.
What skewed attempt at construeing history assumes that, whoever "they" might be, used or needed any reason to attack and kill the black men, other than being racial bigots? Did someone collect affidavits from all the the rioters and find each gave exactly that as a reason?
Since it is clear that the rioters were in violation of very serious laws, if they were forced, by whatever even shame, to explain their actions, why would the tell the truth, if they knew it, and why would anyone expect they would or counld?
Anyway, isn't blaming a race for someting you don't like, then acting with deadly force to punish them for the presumed wrong bias and isn't accepting that as an excuse or explanation for something so utterly wrong equally biased?
A rhetorical question to infer the assertion that there is nothing good in Mississippi does demonstrate pure bias......that's what bigotry is, pure and unadultrated bias.
Whose accepting anything as a excuse? I'm merely pointing out what their excuse was in their minds. Stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and take your medication so your lucid. It was called a "Draft" riot and they predominantly attacked blacks, meaning they put the blame on the blacks for the war that led to the draft.
And saying there is nothing good in Mississippi is not being biased or a bigot. My statement is a assumption because unless you can tell me anything good in Miss other then casino's and southern hospitality it is a correct assumption. Mississippi, if you can correct if I'm wrong, is one of the poorest states in the U.S. and especially in the south. The only thing Ole Miss is known for is it's casino's. I love how instead of you addressing my statements and coming with a contradicting one such as proving me wrong and naming some other things about Miss other then casinos you resort to calling me a bigot, bias etc. as well as for the "Draft" riots issue. If you can't come up with a answer to someone's post other then to call them untrue terms why do you bother posting at all. Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I'm not preaching. I'm just wondering why the motivation makes the difference. They're both based on hatred and control. They are both barbaric and brutal. And...?
I don't think anyone in American society needs to be convinced that these honor killings are atrocities regardless of motivation. So...?
My problem is that it appears that some are suggesting that we (the U.S.) somehow step in and some how assign consequences.
Again, who do you assign to monitor us and give consequences for what they perceive as our aggregious acts?
No one is suggesting the U.S. go all guns in blazing about this issue and laying down our own law about it. We can't do that. We are trying to give the perception that we are not making the laws directly in Iraq and that their gov't is self governing. Me, alone is suggesting since the Iraq gov't is now like a puppet to us that we "suggest" behind the scenes that they pass a law outlawing honor killing and/or making the sentence more severe for those who are convicted of the crime be it Life without parole and/or death penalty. It probably won't deter it completely but it could save a innocent woman's life and would the beginning of eradicting this practice even if it will take generations to do so but you have to start somewhere. This is also a chance for the U.S. to do something good (championing women's rights) out of something bad (the War) for once.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
On a sidenote.. this case came up in my radar... can be related to the issue at hand in this thread... personally I think the punishment should fit the crime and he should be raped for this crime and not the other:
Btw some of this article is in your home state Bdgee, so I hope you practice what you Preach and write your local state politician if your so against such a thing instead of ranting and raving about it on a forum.
Posted by T e x on :
quote:This is also a chance for the U.S. to do something good (championing women's rights) out of something bad (the War) for once.
yup, now I can weigh in...
as posted, I think we should have immediately withdrawn once the statues came down: withdraw well out of harms way, but close enough to strike again.
Drop leaflets, do radio, etc: propaganda... that gets out the message: "Moms, don't let your babies be cowboys!" Seriously, I mean--moms, get OUT! Moms are more receptive to family threats, as opposed to guys (especially in a hyper-macho culture)...
Establish safe zones for moms & kids. Will some of the moms be terrorists? sure... bug 'em. Even a few kids will be terrorists--they think they're doing right cuz Daddy said...
Instead of letting them "divide & conquer," we should be smart. So far? we're dumb
Posted by bdgee on :
"And saying there is nothing good in Mississippi is not being biased or a bigot. My statement is a assumption..."
That is, your statement is one you make without actual information as to its likelyhood, other than a personal predisposition. It is one you make quite forcefully and as if it were a derived conclusion, but via judgment without knowledge. Such a statement is, by definition a statment of bias.....a prejudgment.....bigotry. Sorry, but that is fact.
"If you can't come up with a answer to someone's post other then to call them untrue terms why do you bother posting at all."
Did you look carefully in the mirror as you typed that sentence?
Man, it fits like the pieces of a jig-saw puzzle, when it is solved down to the last few pieces. You declare a post to be wrong, attempting to decimate it through attacks on the terms used, and offer only claims for the "wrongnesses", you propose, that you acknowledge to be nothing but negative opinion, "My statement is a assumption...", to justify them.
You got a real classical case of it.
Incidentally, if it were true, as you say, that Mississippi has only casinos and Southern Hospitality to speak for it, I point out that Southern Hospitality makes up for miles and miles of other stuff. Too, what, other than your own biased opinion have you presented to justify your opinions on the subject?
Quoting Jimmy Rogers, God rest his soul:
"I have heard the tune About the Alabama moon, But the Mississippi moon Is just as bright."
Again. asking God to take care of his soul too, there is the magnificience of the land and people that produced and inspired a William Faulkner to write tales that show and teach us that the South and its culture is both burdoned by and lifted by the exact same sorts of biases and benifits (human greed and human nature) that effect or (affect) any other land or culture.
(An aside, here: Did God (or whatever different overseer of nature) see fir to include some special gene for the souhtern writer, so that, in schools of literature over the World, one of the major disciplines of study is "The Southern Novel"? Whatever the answer, we all thank whatever entity or random quirk of probibility occured for providing us that bit of brilliance.)
And then there's them Southern Bells.......
Posted by rimasco on :
quote:Originally posted by Sunnyside: I'm not preaching. I'm just wondering why the motivation makes the difference. They're both based on hatred and control. They are both barbaric and brutal. And...?
I don't think anyone in American society needs to be convinced that these honor killings are atrocities regardless of motivation. So...?
My problem is that it appears that some are suggesting that we (the U.S.) somehow step in and some how assign consequences.
Again, who do you assign to monitor us and give consequences for what they perceive as our aggregious acts?
Keep in mind...this poor girls family was present with her "father" and "brother" casting the first stones.
You tell either one of them this was an atrocitie and im sure without hesitation or a flynch, theyll tell you "what my dauther was doing was the atrocitie."
Whats sad is, its been like this for thousands of years in MANY regions. It took US bombing the crap out of them and trying to police them to learn their culture. What should we do, bomb them more for not catching up with the american times?
Our government knew of these "traditions" for many years. They only bring them to light when driving a political agenda. Kinda like what their starting to do now with thousand year old dress code the Iran dress-code.
I could sit here and appall you allll day with other cultures. For starters, is anyone familiar with the "child camel jockeys" in Dubai? Its known as the elite sport of the sheikhs. They use children as young as 3. They are starved to stay light and beaten and raped for fun.
In the documentary i seen...there were some middle eastern big dogs that are into this sport. "allies" that sit at the same tables as our diplomats and government. Our government didnt say BOO until the media got a hold of it and aired it world-wide.
check out this link, and look at what they do to some of these kids. PS some were sold into the sport by their family.
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "And saying there is nothing good in Mississippi is not being biased or a bigot. My statement is a assumption..."
That is, your statement is one you make without actual information as to its likelyhood, other than a personal predisposition. It is one you make quite forcefully and as if it were a derived conclusion, but via judgment without knowledge. Such a statement is, by definition a statment of bias.....a prejudgment.....bigotry. Sorry, but that is fact.
"If you can't come up with a answer to someone's post other then to call them untrue terms why do you bother posting at all."
Did you look carefully in the mirror as you typed that sentence?
Man, it fits like the pieces of a jig-saw puzzle, when it is solved down to the last few pieces. You declare a post to be wrong, attempting to decimate it through attacks on the terms used, and offer only claims for the "wrongnesses", you propose, that you acknowledge to be nothing but negative opinion, "My statement is a assumption...", to justify them.
You got a real classical case of it.
Incidentally, if it were true, as you say, that Mississippi has only casinos and Southern Hospitality to speak for it, I point out that Southern Hospitality makes up for miles and miles of other stuff. Too, what, other than your own biased opinion have you presented to justify your opinions on the subject?
Quoting Jimmy Rogers, God rest his soul:
"I have heard the tune About the Alabama moon, But the Mississippi moon Is just as bright."
Again. asking God to take care of his soul too, there is the magnificience of the land and people that produced and inspired a William Faulkner to write tales that show and teach us that the South and its culture is both burdoned by and lifted by the exact same sorts of biases and benifits (human greed and human nature) that effect or (affect) any other land or culture.
(An aside, here: Did God (or whatever different overseer of nature) see fir to include some special gene for the souhtern writer, so that, in schools of literature over the World, one of the major disciplines of study is "The Southern Novel"? Whatever the answer, we all thank whatever entity or random quirk of probibility occured for providing us that bit of brilliance.)
And then there's them Southern Bells.......
Hospitality exists in all states in one form or another from it's inhabitants so stop making it sound like it's only exclusive to Miss or the south. You sure like to double talk in your posts when someone doesn't agree with you.. but your little argument that Miss is all good and not bad is biased in itself.. Casino's (which i consider good because i like to gamble but some people don't), southern hospitality, southern belles (like only beautiful women come from Miss and the south and nowhere else in the U.S. ) and a William Faulkner book that most people have not heard of unless your from the South, study lit in college or a huge Faulkner fan is your proof? ... you neglect to mention Miss's bloody past...
Miss's bloody past more then outweighs some of this... hell when people from around the world hear the word Mississippi they think of the movie Mississippi Burning and the story and crime it was based on... either that or the casino's because of the widespread popularity of Poker around the world and because Ole Miss has casino's... Another story I know about Miss is the trials of Biloxi of it's former Mayor and the Dixie Mafia executing a Judge and his politician wife...I talk to people in Russia, Italy, China etc. and that's all they know about Ole Miss... you make it sound like Miss is the center of culture in the U.S. it's the poorest state in the U.S. if I'm correct with a terrible history of racism unfortunately and that to me is sad...
one bright note is my favorite author went to school (Ole Miss Law school) and lived/practiced law in Miss before he became a favorite author... his name is John Grisham.. perhaps you have heard of him since you know everything about Miss I guess that would make me biased for Ole Miss churning out Grisham since he is my favorite author..
P.S. I love how you dodged the issue of child rapists getting the death penalty in Texas when I addressed it to you specifically... since you are so adamantly against the Death Penalty... perhaps I will get lucky you and will be lucid enough today to address it..
Posted by bdgee on :
Hahahaha
What you are is confused and biased.
I never said anything that might be construed to warrant the statement, "your little argument that Miss is all good and not bad is biased in itself" and I never claimed to know everything about Mississippi or any other state, nation, territory, city or whatever.
Yep, Grisham is a fine author. Grew up right there in Oxford, like Faulkner did, where every boy since Faulkner learns who and what Faulkner was and how proud the people are of him. Like Faulkner, most people will never read any of Grisham's books and won't recognize his name, unless they "...study lit in college ...". (But that is the case with any author since the industrial revolution made printing presses common and public education made literacy the norm.)
One thing I might advise you on, though:
simply because someone cites a contradiction to a statement of yours, does not make everything they say or think directly the opposite of what you say or think and it most certainly doesn't give you freedom to announce your belief to be what they think or the freedom to alter what they have said.
I have made NONE of the statements you are claiming I have. In particular, you can hunt through my post here and you won't find anything I have ever said that infers, implies, or directly states that I am "adamantly against the Death Penalty". That is another of your prejudgements.
I am not obligated to list each and every thing I think is good about Mississippi and have no desire to make any such list, positive things or negative things, about any state. (Even if I did, as things change with time, soon there would be things switching from one list to the other.)
Let me see now....some child rapist somewhere....something you brought up, you say?
Oh, yeah, I remember now, it was an attempt to change the subject......to "dodged the issue" at hand.
Yes, I do remember that.
If you like Grisham's novels, go get a copy of Faulkner's "Stranger in the Dust". You'll find a model for almost all of Grisham's mysteries. It's a fun novel to read too. (It seems I recall an old Holywood black and white movie by that name and with Faulkner listed as one of the screen writers. But it isn't the same tale, though it is a good one.)
Of Grisham's novels, I think I like "A paintd house" best.
Now, to satisfy your need for me to change the subject, while adhering to MY theme, I can't come closer to picking a favorite of Larry McMurtry's novels that to say that I keep my copies of "Leaving Cheyanne" and "The Last Picture Show", beside one-another, right there on the same shelf as "For Whom the Bell Tolls", "Crime and Punishment", "Huckleberry Finn", "The Sound and the Fury", "All the King's Men", etc.....
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee:
I never said anything that might be construed to warrant the statement, "your little argument that Miss is all good and not bad is biased in itself" and I never claimed to know everything about Mississippi or any other state, nation, territory, city or whatever.
You pretty much said throughout this thread I know nothing about Mississippi and that you know everything about it indirectly..
quote:Yep, Grisham is a fine author. Grew up right there in Oxford,
He actually was born & grew up in Arkansas and elsewhere. Didn't move to Mississippi till 1967 with his parents at the age of 12.So he didn't completely grow up there.
quote:Like Faulkner, most people will never read any of Grisham's books and won't recognize his name, unless they "...study lit in college ...". (But that is the case with any author since the industrial revolution made printing presses common and public education made literacy the norm.)
Actually Grisham is probably the most widely read modern american fiction writer:
"Publishers Weekly declared Grisham "the bestselling novelist of the 90s," selling a total of 60,742,289 copies. He is also one of only two authors to sell two million copies on a first printing (Tom Clancy is the other). Grisham's 1992 novel The Pelican Brief sold 11,232,480 copies in the United States alone."
"There are currently over 225 million John Grisham books in print worldwide, which have been translated into 29 languages."
I do admit that I first read him when I was in college in a english class but that was when he first started out and a reading requirement for us in that class was The Firm.
quote:simply because someone cites a contradiction to a statement of yours, does not make everything they say or think directly the opposite of what you say or think and it most certainly doesn't give you freedom to announce your belief to be what they think or the freedom to alter what they have said.
You actually do that to me and everyone else on this board for all to see... so you contradict yourself in that regards...
quote:I have made NONE of the statements you are claiming I have. In particular, you can hunt through my post here and you won't find anything I have ever said that infers, implies, or directly states that I am "adamantly against the Death Penalty". That is another of your prejudgements.
You made this statement after I suggested that in the case of the Honor Killing the killers should get the punishment that fits the crime in this case the Death penalty by stoning(never say anything on a forum that you do not want repeated to you):
"Again, I will not be goaded into joining a demand for hateful reactions, physical or otherwise, to what to me (us) are animalistic and sickening activities of another culture (and religion). ( I want no part of such actions of that culture, but also want no part in the animalistic and sickening reprisals you advocate or your claim that such reprisal is a proper cause of a Christian nation.)"
quote:I am not obligated to list each and every thing I think is good about Mississippi and have no desire to make any such list, positive things or negative things, about any state. (Even if I did, as things change with time, soon there would be things switching from one list to the other.)
On contraire my "special" friend... you brought up Mississippi first on this thread so therefor you should be obligated... You can't bring up a topic and then run away from it when it suits you.. I called it on you and thats exactly what you are doing... kind of contradictory when you do that to others...
quote:Let me see now....some child rapist somewhere....something you brought up, you say?
Oh, yeah, I remember now, it was an attempt to change the subject......to "dodged the issue" at hand.
On contraire again... it has plenty to do with the topic at hand... since I brought up the Death Penalty on violent crimes and I said instead that the punishment should fit the crime... and since you are against the death penalty (you can deny all you want now but I already quoted you) then I called you on it again since you are in one of the states that has a law of the death penalty for Child Rapists (which is in itself a honor killing american style since the child was shamed as well as her/his family)... you seem very political in talk but not in action... otherwise you would take up the cause with your state senator/politician... so I'm not dodging anything but you certainly seem to be so...
quote:If you like Grisham's novels, go get a copy of Faulkner's "Stranger in the Dust". You'll find a model for almost all of Grisham's mysteries.
Grisham's novels are actually Legal drama/thrillers but I'll keep Faulkner under advisement whenever I have time in this life since I'm always reading alot of books at the same time.
quote:Of Grisham's novels, I think I like "A paintd house" best.
I liked The Partner the best followed by the Pelican Brief, The Firm, A Time to Kill etc... my least favorite was The Client(bored me to death) and though I liked A Painted House it isn't high on my list. Currently I just finished The Summons and about to start The Broker.
Posted by bdgee on :
"You pretty much said throughout this thread I know nothing about Mississippi and that you know everything about it indirectly.."
No I did not ever say, directly or indirectly, that either you know nothing about Mississippi or that I know everything about Mississippi.
I did question your fundamental understanding of southern culture and said your assessment of it and things implied by it are askew, placing your premisses on faulty ground and steering your arguments based thereon in never never land (but in different terminology). Of course, that is the normal and logical result of basing arguments on faulty premisses; conclusioons therefrom are spurious.
(I do not use the word "argument" in the sense that you seem to choose to hear it. That usage of "argument" that carries with it some tone or context of "anger" or "fight" is not the usage I present. I am sorry you take it that way. To me, and as I use it here, an "argument" is developement via logical steps to achieve some conclusion.)
"You actually do that to me and everyone else on this board for all to see... so you contradict yourself in that regards... "
No, you just, apparantly out of bias, misrepresebnt what I say to be something like what you do.
You seem genually lost in the logic of a bare denial or even what that might be. It's like demonstrating the falseness of a statement that claims all odd numbers are prime numbers by pointing out that nine is both odd and divisable by three. That still leaves seven and five, and thirteen and a bunch of other numbers bot prime and odd at the same time so it doesn't declare all odd numbers aren't prime.
Which sets up the machenery to point to another of your habits......taking statements out of context or restating them to infer a different meaning than was the intent. Indeed I did type, just above, the words, in order, "all odd numbers are prime numbers". But I did not say all odd numbers are prime. You may not alter or take out of context any sequence of words ot phrases or sentences, leaving the context behind, that establishes that they do NOT alone transmit whatwas being said.
"... since you are against the death penalty (you can deny all you want now but I already quoted you) "
No, I did not say such a thing and you did not quote me doing so. You must have some one else and something they said confused with me. Thus, since it isn't something I said, it is impossible for you to have "called (me) on it".
You quote me as saying,
"Again, I will not be goaded into joining a demand for hateful reactions, physical or otherwise, to what to me (us) are animalistic and sickening activities of another culture (and religion). ( I want no part of such actions of that culture, but also want no part in the animalistic and sickening reprisals you advocate or your claim that such reprisal is a proper cause of a Christian nation.)",
which indeed I did. Then you falsly conclude and declare that that statement is my statement that I am "adamantly against the Death Penalty".
Nonsense.
That statement, should one read it with no prejudgement or bias, says absolutely nothing about the death penalty. Instead, it speaks about joining hateful reactions to satisfy peer pressure and pack instinct.
"...the death penalty for Child Rapists (which is in itself a honor killing american style since the child was shamed as well as her/his family)"
That doesn't correspond with what you have said before. Before you declared that an act of the state or the Klan couldn't be an honor killing because they weren't shamed (I wonder exactly how you can be so certain ewhat the motivation of the Klan is). The death penalty is an act of the state, not of the family, who by law may not participate in the legal procedings except as witnesses.
"you brought up Mississippi first on this thread so therefor you should be obligated... You can't bring up a topic and then run away from it when it suits you.. I called it on you and thats exactly what you are doing... kind of contradictory when you do that to others... "
No, you misrepresent facts again. The first reference to Mississippi in this thread was at 2007 02:33 PM, May 18, 2007, by glassman.
Thereafter, I did also use the word Mississippi, but the purpose and the context of my use of the word was not to speak of of Mississippi itself, but the horrors resulting from Klan's claim to be representing "southern culture. The scene I described actually happened in Mississippi. It was one I actually watched, through the eyes of the "strange white guy was driving by". Later, because I had that experience and leatned why they ran, I weatched and sawabout the same reactions in both children and adults in Alabama and Georgia and Florida.
I don't think what I said it has much to do with it vbeing in Mississippi and I don't feel any obligation to go into any further consideration of Mississippi in order to play your childish game of hatred and bigotry.
"Grisham's novels are actually Legal drama/thrillers"
Well, so is Faulkner's "Stranger in the Dust", as were severaal of his novels. They scribe a pattern for many later authors.
I enjoyed "The Broker", but I don't count it among his better tales. Its immediate predecessor, whose name I don't recall, was among Grisham's best.
Have you considered attending a seminar in anger management or maybe reading some Will Rogers, who never met a man he didn't like?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: drum is the "carp" of the sea... i don't eat 'em... they have catfish farms dayown hyar, Catfish Farming and Mississippi have been synonymous terms since the late sixties. There are over 91,000 acres of catfish in Mississippi producing about 72 percent of the catfish produced nationally.
olive oil is for sauteeing... try deepfrying in it? and you'll have a house full of smoke...
i use three times as much olive oil here at home as anything else.. the next is peanut oil..now that you can get hot, and it tastes good... cotton oil can get even hotter, but i don't use it, and never have..
I found a cool site for catfish.. has good recipes it looks:
But those farm raised ones don't seem to have much taste to them... I hear the non farm raised ones are more tastier because of what they eat compared to being fed a gourmet meal...
Posted by bdgee on :
I do agree, Mach...
Farm raised catfish don't even smell like normal catfish.
It ain't that they tast bad, because they don't taste.
Maybe wild catfish taste better because they have felt freedom and have something to be proud of?
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "You pretty much said throughout this thread I know nothing about Mississippi and that you know everything about it indirectly.."
No I did not ever say, directly or indirectly, that either you know nothing about Mississippi or that I know everything about Mississippi.
I did question your fundamental understanding of southern culture and said your assessment of it and things implied by it are askew, placing your premisses on faulty ground and steering your arguments based thereon in never never land (but in different terminology). Of course, that is the normal and logical result of basing arguments on faulty premisses; conclusioons therefrom are spurious.
(I do not use the word "argument" in the sense that you seem to choose to hear it. That usage of "argument" that carries with it some tone or context of "anger" or "fight" is not the usage I present. I am sorry you take it that way. To me, and as I use it here, an "argument" is developement via logical steps to achieve some conclusion.)
"You actually do that to me and everyone else on this board for all to see... so you contradict yourself in that regards... "
No, you just, apparantly out of bias, misrepresebnt what I say to be something like what you do.
You seem genually lost in the logic of a bare denial or even what that might be. It's like demonstrating the falseness of a statement that claims all odd numbers are prime numbers by pointing out that nine is both odd and divisable by three. That still leaves seven and five, and thirteen and a bunch of other numbers bot prime and odd at the same time so it doesn't declare all odd numbers aren't prime.
Which sets up the machenery to point to another of your habits......taking statements out of context or restating them to infer a different meaning than was the intent. Indeed I did type, just above, the words, in order, "all odd numbers are prime numbers". But I did not say all odd numbers are prime. You may not alter or take out of context any sequence of words ot phrases or sentences, leaving the context behind, that establishes that they do NOT alone transmit whatwas being said.
"... since you are against the death penalty (you can deny all you want now but I already quoted you) "
No, I did not say such a thing and you did not quote me doing so. You must have some one else and something they said confused with me. Thus, since it isn't something I said, it is impossible for you to have "called (me) on it".
You quote me as saying,
"Again, I will not be goaded into joining a demand for hateful reactions, physical or otherwise, to what to me (us) are animalistic and sickening activities of another culture (and religion). ( I want no part of such actions of that culture, but also want no part in the animalistic and sickening reprisals you advocate or your claim that such reprisal is a proper cause of a Christian nation.)",
which indeed I did. Then you falsly conclude and declare that that statement is my statement that I am "adamantly against the Death Penalty".
Nonsense.
That statement, should one read it with no prejudgement or bias, says absolutely nothing about the death penalty. Instead, it speaks about joining hateful reactions to satisfy peer pressure and pack instinct.
"...the death penalty for Child Rapists (which is in itself a honor killing american style since the child was shamed as well as her/his family)"
That doesn't correspond with what you have said before. Before you declared that an act of the state or the Klan couldn't be an honor killing because they weren't shamed (I wonder exactly how you can be so certain ewhat the motivation of the Klan is). The death penalty is an act of the state, not of the family, who by law may not participate in the legal procedings except as witnesses.
"you brought up Mississippi first on this thread so therefor you should be obligated... You can't bring up a topic and then run away from it when it suits you.. I called it on you and thats exactly what you are doing... kind of contradictory when you do that to others... "
No, you misrepresent facts again. The first reference to Mississippi in this thread was at 2007 02:33 PM, May 18, 2007, by glassman.
Thereafter, I did also use the word Mississippi, but the purpose and the context of my use of the word was not to speak of of Mississippi itself, but the horrors resulting from Klan's claim to be representing "southern culture. The scene I described actually happened in Mississippi. It was one I actually watched, through the eyes of the "strange white guy was driving by". Later, because I had that experience and leatned why they ran, I weatched and sawabout the same reactions in both children and adults in Alabama and Georgia and Florida.
I don't think what I said it has much to do with it vbeing in Mississippi and I don't feel any obligation to go into any further consideration of Mississippi in order to play your childish game of hatred and bigotry.
"Grisham's novels are actually Legal drama/thrillers"
Well, so is Faulkner's "Stranger in the Dust", as were severaal of his novels. They scribe a pattern for many later authors.
I enjoyed "The Broker", but I don't count it among his better tales. Its immediate predecessor, whose name I don't recall, was among Grisham's best.
Have you considered attending a seminar in anger management or maybe reading some Will Rogers, who never met a man he didn't like?
I'll try to keep this one short because I know you like to talk in circles and take a long time to get straight to the point.
I stand corrected that Glassman first mentioned Miss but when he mentioned it had nothing to do with the topic at hand. When you mentioned it, it did at: posted May 21, 2007 17:40.
as for the Child Rapist issue... I was presenting it in your viewpoint and not mine... No way I think the death of a rapist is a matter of family honor... it's a matter of revenge though others would say justice...
As for "argument", I don't know where that came from since I never mentioned the use of it for either you or me but whatever. You like to twist things around apparently and then say it is me or whomever that is doing it.
If you want to dodge when i ask some good things about Miss and that makes me a bigot and a hater then you have a warp mind but whatever.
The reason I pointed out that Grisham's novels are Legal drama/thrillers is because you incorrectly classified him as a mystery writer.
I don't recall the predessor of The Broker neither... I lost the order of which book came out when... I suppose I could check the copyright but im lazy today lol
"Have you considered attending a seminar in anger management or maybe reading some Will Rogers, who never met a man he didn't like?" >>>>>> Funny I was going to suggest that to you lol ...
Posted by glassman on :
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: No I never lived in the south but I do not need to because the bottom line is the lynchings are/were done for racial hatred while Honor Killings in Middle East are done for various reasons that bring "shame" to the family such as when a girl is raped by a family member or another person... they are "honor" killed because they must of provoked the rape or didn't do enough to stop it...hence bring "shame" to the family... just to give a example of a honor killing other then the Kurdish girl's killing...both are about control & humiliation of women... Western thought is not the same as Eastern thought...
but just to humor you... lynchings in the south that are done due to a inter-racial relationship are not always done by the girl's parents or family... but just by KKK or racist thugs who are looking for a excuse/reason to kill a black person... again it's due to racial hatred and not "shame" on a family...
i missed alot of posts here, Mach.
lemme show you the last publicly known lynching:
Emmit Till... happened real close to where i currently live:
Emmett Till was the son of Mamie Till and Louis Till. Emmett's mother was born to John and Alma Carthan in the small Delta town of Webb, Mississippi ("the Delta" being the traditional name for the area of northwestern Mississippi, at the confluence of the Yazoo and Mississippi Rivers). When she was two years old, her family moved to Illinois. Emmett's mother largely raised him on her own; she and Louis Till had separated in 1942.
In 1955, Till and his cousin were sent for a summer stay with Till's great-uncle, Moses Wright, who lived in Money, Mississippi (another small town in the Delta, eight miles north of Greenwood).
Before his departure for the Delta, Till's mother cautioned him to "mind his manners" with white people.
Till's mother understood that race relations in Mississippi were very different from those in Chicago. The state had seen many lynchings during the South's lynching era (ca. 1876-1930), and racially motivated murders were still not unfamiliar, especially in the "Delta" region where Till was going to visit. Racial tensions were also on the rise after the United States Supreme Court's 1954 decision in Brown v. Board of Education to end segregation in public education.
Till arrived on August 21. On August 24, he joined other teenagers as they went to Bryant's Grocery and Meat Market to get some candy and soda. The teens were children of sharecroppers and had been picking cotton all day. The market was owned by a husband and wife, Roy Bryant and Carolyn Bryant, and mostly catered to the local sharecropper population. Till's cousin and several black youths, all under 16, were reported to have been with Till in the store.
Depending on who tells the story, as Till was leaving the store, he either whistled at or physically assaulted and propositioned Carolyn Bryant. She stood up and stormed to her car. The boys were terrified thinking she might return with a pistol and ran away. The news of this greatly angered her husband when he heard of it upon his return from out of town several days later.
Till's cousin, Wheeler Parker, Jr., who was with him at the store, claims Till did nothing but whistle at the woman. "He loved pranks, he loved fun, he loved jokes ... in Mississippi, people didn't think the same jokes were funny." Carolyn Bryant later asserted that Till had grabbed her at the waist and asked her for a date. She said the young man also used "unprintable" words. He had a slight stutter and some have conjectured that Bryant might have misinterpreted what Till said.
i won't say there's not alot of jes' plain hatred, but i stand behind my statement that a large proportion of the lynchings were brought on by more then jes' plain hatred...
Murder
At about 12:30 a.m. on August 27, Bryant and his half-brother, J.W. Milam, kidnapped Emmett Till from his great-uncle's house in the middle of the night. According to witnesses, they drove him to a weathered shed on a plantation in neighboring Sunflower County, where they brutally beat him. The fan around his neck was to weigh down his body, which they dropped into the Tallahatchie River near Glendora, another small cotton town, north of Money.
The brothers and police tried to convince the people that Emmett Till was in Chicago and that the beaten boy was someone else, but the only way that he was recognized was by the ring on his finger that had been his father's. His mother had given it to him the day before he left for Money. The brothers were soon under official suspicion for the boy's disappearance and were arrested August 29 after spending the night with relatives in Ruleville, just miles away from the scene of the crime.
Both men admitted they had taken the boy from his great-uncle's yard but claimed they turned him loose the same night. Word got out that Till was missing and soon NAACP civil rights leader Medgar Evers, the state field secretary, and Amzie Moore, head of the Bolivar County chapter, became involved, disguising themselves as cotton pickers and going into the cotton fields in search of any information that would help find the young visitor from Chicago.
After collecting stories from ordinary blacks first hand, Amzie Moore, a Delta civil rights veteran and member of the Regional Council of Negro Leadership and the NAACP, asserted that whites had murdered and lynched over the years "more than 2,000" blacks and thrown their bodies into the Delta’s swamps and bayous.
Some supposed that relatives of Till were hiding him out of fear for the youth’s safety or that he had been sent back to Chicago where he would be safe.
Moses Wright, a witness to Till's abduction told the Sheriff that a person who sounded like a woman had identified Till as "the one" after which the men had driven away with him. Bryant and Milam claimed they later found out Till was not "the one" who allegedly insulted Mrs. Bryant, and swore to Sheriff George Smith they had released him. They would later recant and confess after their acquittal.
In an editorial on Friday, September 2, Greenville journalist Hodding Carter, Jr. asserted that "people who are guilty of this savage crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," a brave suggestion for any Mississippi newspaper editor to make.
i am tempted to go 'round with a camera and post actual pictures of how people are still living down here today...
it ain't over, the poverty in many of the towns here is equivalent to the third world (i've seen that too)..
we just (this week) had a local TV news story on how a town finally got running water... many of the residents have been using hand pumps till this year...
unfortunately? our local news station doesn't post most of their stories on the net... Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by bdgee: I do agree, Mach...
Farm raised catfish don't even smell like normal catfish.
It ain't that they tast bad, because they don't taste.
Maybe wild catfish taste better because they have felt freedom and have something to be proud of?
We'll I read a article that says it has to do with the diet... a gourmet diet is not natural...too clean i suppose... no fat and such.. while a normal catfish eats food from it's natural habitat so they tend to be more meatier, tastier and i suppose smellier lol I would have to eat a normal one and compare the two... but they don't sell those that i can find at a fish market here in NY.. they all seem to be farm raised.. guess I'll have to catch one of my own...
Posted by glassman on :
They would later recant and confess after their acquittal.......
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman:
quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: No I never lived in the south but I do not need to because the bottom line is the lynchings are/were done for racial hatred while Honor Killings in Middle East are done for various reasons that bring "shame" to the family such as when a girl is raped by a family member or another person... they are "honor" killed because they must of provoked the rape or didn't do enough to stop it...hence bring "shame" to the family... just to give a example of a honor killing other then the Kurdish girl's killing...both are about control & humiliation of women... Western thought is not the same as Eastern thought...
but just to humor you... lynchings in the south that are done due to a inter-racial relationship are not always done by the girl's parents or family... but just by KKK or racist thugs who are looking for a excuse/reason to kill a black person... again it's due to racial hatred and not "shame" on a family...
i missed alot of posts here, Mach.
lemme show you the last publicly known lynching:
Emmit Till... happened real close to where i currently live:
Emmett Till was the son of Mamie Till and Louis Till. Emmett's mother was born to John and Alma Carthan in the small Delta town of Webb, Mississippi ("the Delta" being the traditional name for the area of northwestern Mississippi, at the confluence of the Yazoo and Mississippi Rivers). When she was two years old, her family moved to Illinois. Emmett's mother largely raised him on her own; she and Louis Till had separated in 1942.
In 1955, Till and his cousin were sent for a summer stay with Till's great-uncle, Moses Wright, who lived in Money, Mississippi (another small town in the Delta, eight miles north of Greenwood).
Before his departure for the Delta, Till's mother cautioned him to "mind his manners" with white people.
Till's mother understood that race relations in Mississippi were very different from those in Chicago. The state had seen many lynchings during the South's lynching era (ca. 1876-1930), and racially motivated murders were still not unfamiliar, especially in the "Delta" region where Till was going to visit. Racial tensions were also on the rise after the United States Supreme Court's 1954 decision in Brown v. Board of Education to end segregation in public education.
Till arrived on August 21. On August 24, he joined other teenagers as they went to Bryant's Grocery and Meat Market to get some candy and soda. The teens were children of sharecroppers and had been picking cotton all day. The market was owned by a husband and wife, Roy Bryant and Carolyn Bryant, and mostly catered to the local sharecropper population. Till's cousin and several black youths, all under 16, were reported to have been with Till in the store.
Depending on who tells the story, as Till was leaving the store, he either whistled at or physically assaulted and propositioned Carolyn Bryant. She stood up and stormed to her car. The boys were terrified thinking she might return with a pistol and ran away. The news of this greatly angered her husband when he heard of it upon his return from out of town several days later.
Till's cousin, Wheeler Parker, Jr., who was with him at the store, claims Till did nothing but whistle at the woman. "He loved pranks, he loved fun, he loved jokes ... in Mississippi, people didn't think the same jokes were funny." Carolyn Bryant later asserted that Till had grabbed her at the waist and asked her for a date. She said the young man also used "unprintable" words. He had a slight stutter and some have conjectured that Bryant might have misinterpreted what Till said.
i won't say there's not alot of jes' plain hatred, but i stand behind my statement that a large proportion of the lynchings were brought on by more then jes' plain hatred...
Murder
At about 12:30 a.m. on August 27, Bryant and his half-brother, J.W. Milam, kidnapped Emmett Till from his great-uncle's house in the middle of the night. According to witnesses, they drove him to a weathered shed on a plantation in neighboring Sunflower County, where they brutally beat him. The fan around his neck was to weigh down his body, which they dropped into the Tallahatchie River near Glendora, another small cotton town, north of Money.
The brothers and police tried to convince the people that Emmett Till was in Chicago and that the beaten boy was someone else, but the only way that he was recognized was by the ring on his finger that had been his father's. His mother had given it to him the day before he left for Money. The brothers were soon under official suspicion for the boy's disappearance and were arrested August 29 after spending the night with relatives in Ruleville, just miles away from the scene of the crime.
Both men admitted they had taken the boy from his great-uncle's yard but claimed they turned him loose the same night. Word got out that Till was missing and soon NAACP civil rights leader Medgar Evers, the state field secretary, and Amzie Moore, head of the Bolivar County chapter, became involved, disguising themselves as cotton pickers and going into the cotton fields in search of any information that would help find the young visitor from Chicago.
After collecting stories from ordinary blacks first hand, Amzie Moore, a Delta civil rights veteran and member of the Regional Council of Negro Leadership and the NAACP, asserted that whites had murdered and lynched over the years "more than 2,000" blacks and thrown their bodies into the Delta’s swamps and bayous.
Some supposed that relatives of Till were hiding him out of fear for the youth’s safety or that he had been sent back to Chicago where he would be safe.
Moses Wright, a witness to Till's abduction told the Sheriff that a person who sounded like a woman had identified Till as "the one" after which the men had driven away with him. Bryant and Milam claimed they later found out Till was not "the one" who allegedly insulted Mrs. Bryant, and swore to Sheriff George Smith they had released him. They would later recant and confess after their acquittal.
In an editorial on Friday, September 2, Greenville journalist Hodding Carter, Jr. asserted that "people who are guilty of this savage crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," a brave suggestion for any Mississippi newspaper editor to make.
i am tempted to go 'round with a camera and post actual pictures of how people are still living down here today...
it ain't over, the poverty in many of the towns here is equivalent to the third world (i've seen that too..
we just (this week) had a local TV news story on how a town finally got running water... many of the residents have been using hand pumps till this year...
unfortunately? our local news station doesn't post most of their stories on the net...
Wow that sux.. they got acquitted? when was this in 2006? .. they never found his body? ... all white jury? ... as for the poverty... yes I'm aware of it... seen it on TV awhile ago but don't remember what it looked like... the politicians in Miss must be the most corrupt if they can't lift the poverty out of Miss with the casino's there and tourism dollars it brings...
Posted by glassman on :
eating wild-caught fish here can be dangerous...
What You Should Know About Eating Mississippi Delta Fish
Some fish from the Mississippi Delta lakes and streams contain levels of certain pesticides that pose health risks when eaten over a long period of time. Individuals should limit the amount of buffalo, carp, gar, and large catfish (catfish greater than 22 inches in length) that theyeat to no more than two meals a month. This warning applies to ALL waters in the Mississippi portion of Delta that lie between Mississippi River levee on the west and the bluff hills to the east. The same warning applies to Roebuck Lake, but MDEQ recommends that you should not eat ANY BUFFALO from this lake. The concentrations of DDT and Toxaphene in fish in the Delta are declining; however this warning will continue until testing shows that these fish are safe to eat. Eating fish with high levels of DDT and Toxaphene, over an extended period of time, may increase the risk of cancer. Many popular kinds of fish including bass, bream, crappie, freshwater drum, and small catfish (less that22 inches in length) are SAFE to eat. Farm-raised catfish are SAFE to eat.
Wow that sux.. they got acquitted? when was this in 2006? .. they never found his body? ... all white jury? ... as for the poverty... yes I'm aware of it... seen it on TV awhile ago but don't remember what it looked like... the politicians in Miss must be the most corrupt if they can't lift the poverty out of Miss with the casino's there and tourism dollars it brings...
oh no the Emitt Till story is pretty old..
but not that old...
On September 23 the jury, made up of 12 white males, acquitted both defendants. Deliberations took just 67 minutes; one juror said they took a "soda break" to stretch the time to over an hour "to make it look good." The hasty acquittal outraged people throughout the United States and Europe and energized the nascent Civil Rights Movement.
n a January 1956 article in Look Magazine for which they were paid, J.W. Milam and Roy Bryant admitted to journalist William Bradford Huie that he and his brother had killed Till. They did not fear being tried again for the same crime because of the Constitutional double jeopardy protection. Milam claimed that initially their intention was to scare Till into line by pistol-whipping him and threatening to throw him off a cliff. Milam claimed that regardless of what they did to Till, he never showed any fear, never seemed to believe they would really kill him, and maintained a completely unrepentant, insolent, and defiant attitude towards them concerning his actions. Thus the brothers said they felt they were left with no choice but to fully make an example of Till. The story focused exclusively on the role of Milam and Bryant in the crime and did not mention the possible part played by others in the crime.
does that sound like an honor killing to you? it does to me.. the victim is different, but the motives are the same...
Kid Rock:I was born at night, but not last night baby I've been around, seen some things I've slept in dumpsters, got high with kings Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: Wow that sux.. they got acquitted? when was this in 2006? .. they never found his body? ... all white jury? ... as for the poverty... yes I'm aware of it... seen it on TV awhile ago but don't remember what it looked like... the politicians in Miss must be the most corrupt if they can't lift the poverty out of Miss with the casino's there and tourism dollars it brings...
oh no the Emitt Till story is pretty old..
but not that old...
On September 23 the jury, made up of 12 white males, acquitted both defendants. Deliberations took just 67 minutes; one juror said they took a "soda break" to stretch the time to over an hour "to make it look good." The hasty acquittal outraged people throughout the United States and Europe and energized the nascent Civil Rights Movement.
n a January 1956 article in Look Magazine for which they were paid, J.W. Milam and Roy Bryant admitted to journalist William Bradford Huie that he and his brother had killed Till. They did not fear being tried again for the same crime because of the Constitutional double jeopardy protection. Milam claimed that initially their intention was to scare Till into line by pistol-whipping him and threatening to throw him off a cliff. Milam claimed that regardless of what they did to Till, he never showed any fear, never seemed to believe they would really kill him, and maintained a completely unrepentant, insolent, and defiant attitude towards them concerning his actions. Thus the brothers said they felt they were left with no choice but to fully make an example of Till. The story focused exclusively on the role of Milam and Bryant in the crime and did not mention the possible part played by others in the crime.
does that sound like an honor killing to you? it does to me.. the victim is different, but the motives are the same...
Kid Rock:I was born at night, but not last night baby I've been around, seen some things I've slept in dumpsters, got high with kings
Nahh I wouldn't call that honor killing... just plain ole teaching him a lesson that went too far... they said they didn't intend to kill him only to teach him a lesson and keep in line... but since he was defiant to them... they took it to the next step... why the Kid rock lyrics? i hate that guy lol can't believe he still has a career...
btw there was a case that is more closer to our time then the Emmit Till story... I saw this one when they did a documentary on the KKK in the History Channel:
quote:Originally posted by glassman: eating wild-caught fish here can be dangerous...
What You Should Know About Eating Mississippi Delta Fish
Some fish from the Mississippi Delta lakes and streams contain levels of certain pesticides that pose health risks when eaten over a long period of time. Individuals should limit the amount of buffalo, carp, gar, and large catfish (catfish greater than 22 inches in length) that theyeat to no more than two meals a month. This warning applies to ALL waters in the Mississippi portion of Delta that lie between Mississippi River levee on the west and the bluff hills to the east. The same warning applies to Roebuck Lake, but MDEQ recommends that you should not eat ANY BUFFALO from this lake. The concentrations of DDT and Toxaphene in fish in the Delta are declining; however this warning will continue until testing shows that these fish are safe to eat. Eating fish with high levels of DDT and Toxaphene, over an extended period of time, may increase the risk of cancer. Many popular kinds of fish including bass, bream, crappie, freshwater drum, and small catfish (less that22 inches in length) are SAFE to eat. Farm-raised catfish are SAFE to eat.
Have you ever eating normal catfish that isn't contaminated? if so .. how would you compare it to farm raised ones? ...
Posted by glassman on :
i have eaten a lot of catfish that were not contaminated..
but not from MS...
i grew up in MD and used to fish alot on the upper potomac...
small cat fish up to about 18 inches between November and June are delicious...
in late june they take on an odd flavor which i can only describe as "muddy" ... i attributed it to them eating minnows that gorge on some sort of vegetaion... i know this cuz that's what we caught them on later in the year... minnows... and they were full of them when we cleaned 'em...
speaking of cleaning? you have to skin 'em fro the best taste...
even the bass would take on the flavor...
in spring? when the water is high? they taste sweet...
we used chicken livers for bait at night, and we used these guys for bait in the daytime:
they live on the bottom of rocks in fast moving CLEAN, (unpolluted with insecticides) water...
they are called helgramites, they are the larvae of the dobson fly, and the pinchers HURT!, and they know how to use em....
one helgramite should be good for at least two fish, cuz they are so tough...and everything in the river eats them... i've seen video of African natives eating them...
it's a lot of work to catch them cuz you have to have two people...one to hold the screen downstream, and one to turn over the rocks... they get up to 8 inches long ...
some would stay on the rock bottoms, and some would let go...
in the 70's? a dozen small ones would sell for 5$... that's ten times a dozen canadian night crawlers and worth every penny...
some days? i would be the only person at the boat ramp with fish.. and that was when i had taken the time and effort to catch helgramites..
a good trick for catfishing at night?
take a couple pounds of chicken livers and put it in a stocking(pantyhose) tie a float to it to mark it? and a real heavy sinker to the stocking...
throw it out about where you want to cast and wait 15 minutes..the the catfish smell 'em and move in... sometimes? they even get their teeth hung in the stocking and you get a bonus when you pull that back in...
chicken livers are messy and hard to keep on the hook, but the best night bait i ever used...
i spent many a pleasant evening drinking beer and fishing to coleman lantern light, catfishing with friends and family....
Posted by IWISHIHAD on :
That looks a little bit like the ghost shrimp that is great bait down here. In Calif. the contaminated water issue in the oceans has been a biggie for many years. The water here is a lot cleaner now than it use to be, which is great. Many people avoid eating very much fish because of the contaminants, yet never think about eating other foods that can contain more contaminants than the fish. We drink and eat foods that help get rid of toxins in our body, yet have sucked many of those same things into the food. I was at a doctors office a ways back in the Little Saigon area down here. I was getting physical therapy from someone that had suggested that i get artichoke tea to help get rid of toxins out of my body. I said i had never seen an artichoke tea in the stores, she told me they had some down the street, that came from Vietnam. I kidded with her, saying that after all that agent orange we sprayed over there, would i be getting rid of the toxins or putting more in my system? She said, i never thought about that.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by glassman: i have eaten a lot of catfish that were not contaminated..
but not from MS...
i grew up in MD and used to fish alot on the upper potomac...
small cat fish up to about 18 inches between November and June are delicious...
in late june they take on an odd flavor which i can only describe as "muddy" ... i attributed it to them eating minnows that gorge on some sort of vegetaion... i know this cuz that's what we caught them on later in the year... minnows... and they were full of them when we cleaned 'em...
speaking of cleaning? you have to skin 'em fro the best taste...
even the bass would take on the flavor...
in spring? when the water is high? they taste sweet...
we used chicken livers for bait at night, and we used these guys for bait in the daytime:
they live on the bottom of rocks in fast moving CLEAN, (unpolluted with insecticides) water...
they are called helgramites, they are the larvae of the dobson fly, and the pinchers HURT!, and they know how to use em....
one helgramite should be good for at least two fish, cuz they are so tough...and everything in the river eats them... i've seen video of African natives eating them...
it's a lot of work to catch them cuz you have to have two people...one to hold the screen downstream, and one to turn over the rocks... they get up to 8 inches long ...
some would stay on the rock bottoms, and some would let go...
in the 70's? a dozen small ones would sell for 5$... that's ten times a dozen canadian night crawlers and worth every penny...
some days? i would be the only person at the boat ramp with fish.. and that was when i had taken the time and effort to catch helgramites..
a good trick for catfishing at night?
take a couple pounds of chicken livers and put it in a stocking(pantyhose) tie a float to it to mark it? and a real heavy sinker to the stocking...
throw it out about where you want to cast and wait 15 minutes..the the catfish smell 'em and move in... sometimes? they even get their teeth hung in the stocking and you get a bonus when you pull that back in...
chicken livers are messy and hard to keep on the hook, but the best night bait i ever used...
i spent many a pleasant evening drinking beer and fishing to coleman lantern light, catfishing with friends and family....
That is one scary looking bugger Glassman.. I wouldn't want that falling down my pants if I'm trying to catch it and it falls out of my hands... Posted by cottonjim on :
Glass, a tip for cleaning late season cats to get out the muddy taste. Drive a nail through their mouth and into a tree, then when they are hanging, cut their tail off where the meat starts and let 'em bleed. After you shin and clean 'em, soak the meat in 2% or Whole millk for as much as 24 hours. Takes tht muddy taste away. I know because I love catching river cats.
Posted by Machiavelli on :
quote:Originally posted by cottonjim: Glass, a tip for cleaning late season cats to get out the muddy taste. Drive a nail through their mouth and into a tree, then when they are hanging, cut their tail off where the meat starts and let 'em bleed. After you shin and clean 'em, soak the meat in 2% or Whole millk for as much as 24 hours. Takes tht muddy taste away. I know because I love catching river cats.
You would do good as a interrogator in a prison with no human rights lol jk ... Posted by cottonjim on :
VEE HAVE VAY'S OF MAKING YOU TALK, LMAO
Posted by Machiavelli on :
What they stock in these lakes down here is incredible, steelhead, trout, catfish, many very large fish, here is the latest.
Most of the 16 or l7 sturgeon stocked at SARL and eight or so at Corona Lake were 80-90 pounds. But the average was 100 pounds and the total was 2,500 pounds, according to Beer.
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