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Author Topic: I Am Marginally Short
Purl Gurl
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Not really, I am actually four foot eight.

Worried about a Market Maker borrowing your
shares for shorting? You can stop this with
very little effort. Just think cash. Think,

"I want to keep my cash."

Check with your broker. Most, if not all,
have the same policy on "lending" shares
to a Market Market for shorting, lending
your shares to a Market Maker to use to
steal your money by making a profit on
your loss of money.

If you maintain a margin account, one of
the stipulations is your shares can be
used for shorting. Anyone can borrow your
shares and do whatever they please.

Maintaining a cash account, your shares
cannot be borrowed. None can touch your
shares for any reason.

Cash and carry works well. Borrowing,
you always pay a price.

You will discover interesting responses
from various brokers. When asked about
their policy on borrowing shares, and
what would happen if your shares are
gone and you want to sell, most will say,

"You will never notice."

I will notice and I will be very annoyed.

When your shares are borrowed and you try
to sell, those shares have to be replaced.
A notice is sent to the shorter who took
your shares, to replace those shares or
your broker has to borrow shares from
yet another person.

Do you suppose this happens instantly?
Is it possible your sell order will be
delayed by an amount of time it takes
to replace your missing shares?

You might not notice. I will.

Margin account, your shares will be used
for shorting.

Cash account, nobody can touch your shares.

Guess which type of account I maintain.

Purl Gurl


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realityinc21
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Purl Gurl:
[B]Not really, I am actually four foot eight.

WOW--ALL THE YEARS I HAVE BEEN TRADING I DID NOT KNOW THAT. THAT'S AN EYE OPENER.

FYI--I AM 5'2'--GREAT THINGS COME IN SMALL PACKAGES. LOL

------------------
DIANA


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Purl Gurl
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Did I write four foot eight?

Darn, I meant I am eight foot four.

Remember the "Goon Girl" who was always
hitting on Popeye the Sailor, romantically
and physically? You know, very tall, skinny,
close set eyes, a single eyebrow. She hung
out with Bruto, or Brutus, whatever name.

That's me. Well, I am not skinny, by far.
I am a goon girl though!

Diana, check with your broker to be sure
about their own policy. Pretty sure you
will find out your shares can be used
for shorting if you have a margin account.

I don't think you will find this in most
contracts, save perhaps being buried in
the legalese small print.

Interesting, yes?

Purl Gurl


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glassman
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Were you browsing down in the micro board today PG-- I don't short or margin to protect my Karma--LOL
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realityinc21
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Purl Gurl:
[B]Did I write four foot eight?

SOME HOW I JUST DON'T BUY THAT!!!
BUT IT'S YOUR STORY AND I WILL LET YOU TELL IT!!I KNOW YOU WERE A HEART BREAKER AND A WILD ONE AT THAT!!! JUST GOTTA HUNCH!!

------------------
DIANA


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metal1
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i'm with Reality, there is no delay in selling if your shares are borrowed. its standard practice. i dont know where purl got that info
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glassman
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BUT it makes sense that if you are in the borrowing game--then they can borrow YOUR shares to SELL short YOUR investment don't it.


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glassman
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secondly-- if you keep up on the general economic news you know that there is a huge amount of margin and short sales on the market-- has been for quite awhile--as that ends--we will see a lot tremors..good and bad--


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madmacd
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Purl, I have heard this same thing. There is another way to protect shares, and that is to ask for the paper. Usually there is a fee attatched, but if you are dealing in big numbers and longer term it's negligiable. Get the certificate.
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glassman
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Just verified that PG is right as usual--my expensive human broker says not to worry if you have shares borrowed from your account( this is a very large house so you need to look at your own brokers solvency)-- the broker is responsible-but margin account works both ways they can borrow your shares to short sell against you-


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Purl Gurl
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Yes, Glassman. Your shares can be borrowed
and shorted, costing you money. This happens
because margin accounts are so popular with
investors, and very popular with shorters.

Have to remember, although the SEC claims
no shorting on the down tick is allowed,
this rule is not enforced.

Classic game. A shorter borrows 10,000 shares
from your account, sells 9,000 at market, then
dribbles out 100 share amounts, increasingly
lower prices to drive prices down. You see
this everyday. The SEC does nothing. I have
yet to read a single SEC censor for down
tick shorting. This will not happen because
Wall Street owns the SEC; corruption.

On time delays, there was a recent incident
with a participant here trying to sell and
could not. He ended up having to call his
broker, who, in turn, borrowed shares from
a different account of his to cover for
his missing shares.

So, execution time in seconds, or exectution
time in minutes or more, when a phone call
is needed to cure problems caused by shorters.

There are circumstances, regular basis,
you cannot sell your shares because they
are simply gone and cannot be replaced
within a reasonable period of time. It
is not uncommon for shorters to not replace
your shares until the three day limit.

Either way, time delay or not, you will
lose money if a shorter takes your shares.
You will lose money anyhow because a shorter
will take shares elsewhere.

Point is, if more people use cash accounts,
it becomes more difficult for shorters to
rip you off, but never impossible.

Biggest problem, Market Makers, headtraders
and brokers are exempt because of corruption
in the SEC.


Purl Gurl


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Purl Gurl
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As with Glassman, I never short nor use a
margin account. I play a fair honest game
and usually do well. When you play by the
rules, play an honest game, you become
very skilled at the game.

Precisely Glassman. It is Karma. Life has
a way of returning to you, what you do,
good or bad.

Purl Gurl


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The Hippo
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obviously shorting is bad, but I dont understand why the negativity towards a margin acoount in general.. how is it bad for Karma?
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glassman
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It took me years to repay neg Karma from my repo biz--i was protecting investors in a very wealthy community where anybody who wants work can find it--but i still managed to offend the spirit. Admit i liked the adrenalin more than the money-maybe part of it.
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realityinc21
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quote:
Originally posted by realityinc21:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Purl Gurl:
[B]Did I write four foot eight?

SOME HOW I JUST DON'T BUY THAT!!!
BUT IT'S YOUR STORY AND I WILL LET YOU TELL IT!!I KNOW YOU WERE A HEART BREAKER AND A WILD ONE AT THAT!!! JUST GOTTA HUNCH!!


TO CLARIFY: I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE STATURE OF PURL GURL. LOL 4'8' VERSES 8'4'

I WOULD HARDLY MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT ABOUT MARGIN ACCOUNTS OR BROKERAGE USAGE OF STOCKS WITH MARGIN ACCOUNTS. I TRUTHFULLY KNOW VERY LITTLE ON THE SUBJECT. BUT I AM LEARNING THRU PURL AND G-MAN. PURL AND G-MAN HAVE THE FACTS ON THAT ONE. TRUST THEM. TRUST ME ON A GOOD DAY TRADE... LOL

PURL,

MISSED YOU YESTERDAY!! HOPE YOU ARE WELL.

AFTER THE BELL I HAVE MY EVENING WITH PURL.

------------------
DIANA


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Purl Gurl
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A margin account "enables" shorters. Another
way of saying this is, "You are helping those
shorters by making your shares available."

We clearly cannot stop shorting but working
together, we can make shorting more difficult.

Only cure for both shorting and pumping, is
to hold the SEC to task, to bring an end to
all this corruption in the SEC. This will
not happen in our lifetime.

Might be better, though, for our children
when they reach the "investment" age.

On a personal level, and this has nothing
to do with margin accounts, I always pay
cash for whatever, including big purchases
like real estate. When our family credit
card bill exceeds three-hundred dollars,
this sends me into a panic!

I've always liked "cash and carry" buying.

Purl Gurl


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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hippo:
obviously shorting is bad, but I dont understand why the negativity towards a margin acoount in general.. how is it bad for Karma?

If you have margin YOUR SHARES can be borrowed to short against you--If you follow Karma and you are not a borrower then maybe you are accumulating good karma by being used-- i don't know--I just try to walk the middle of the road.
If you short-sell you are not sending positive Karma to the world--world/ nature always a struggle to find balance. Enough about Karma--its a series of choices and bargains with yourself--people who live in glass houses......


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metal1
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shorting has been around for ages, nothing wrong with it. you few people just like to whine about things. other people shorting hasn't cost me a thing, in fact when they short a hot stock of mine and good news comes out they scramble to cover driving up the price of my stock, i sell and make more money. other people shorting doesn't cost you a thing. with these penny stocks maybe its a different story since nobody know how many shares there are out there. THERE IS NO DELAY WHEN YOUR SHARES ARE BORRWED

[This message has been edited by metal1 (edited January 30, 2004).]


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glassman
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Not whining-- what you do is your business-- I don't throw stones--as i said--but not everybody knows about this and i am making them aware of the situation--it's about choices and being informed.
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glassman
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there are very few greater pleasures for me on the market than a good strong short squeeze metal-- but if you have been paying attention you would know that naked short selling has been rampant and it even shows in the SEC filings of nite-- this is bad and unehtical-- it amounts to an unsecured loan and right now they are ending it legally-- if this scenario doesn't work out just right--you may find that YOU don't own shares that you think you do--if you don't beleive me and you care-- do some DD--

[This message has been edited by glassman (edited January 30, 2004).]


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Purl Gurl
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metal1 wrote:

"...shorting has been around for ages,
nothing wrong with it...."

Nothing wrong except in almost all cases,
it is illegal shorting. In almost all cases,
either illegal or unethical shorting is
done by Market Makers, headtraders and
brokers, with blessings of a SEC blind
eye and a deaf ear.

You really need to research this topic.
A good starting point is a well known
topic generally known as "Bermuda Shorts."

"...you few people just like to whine
about things...."

Which well explains the new NASD rule and
the coming SEC "SHO" rule regarding this
problem of shorting. Last trade year, more
than several hundred companies officially
filed complaints with the SEC for shorting
of their stock, and many companies initiated
civil litigation against those shorting a
stock with unlawful intent.

Strikes me there are more than a few people
"whining" about this problem.

If anyone is whining, it is you whining about
our discussion of shorting, a rather pleasant
and intelligent discussion, with a minor
exception.

"...other people shorting doesn't cost
you a thing."

When it is your stock, this costs you an
amount equal to the loss in value of your
stock shares. This is a simple notion.

Another topic for you to research is the
two counter-balance forces providing some
price control on markets. These opposing
forces are shorting and pumping. You will
also do well to research how the new NASD
rule, if enforced, along with the coming
SHO rule, will create market chaos by
diminishing shorting and adding more
power to pumping.

My suggestion is you quite your whining,
hit the books, and learn a bit more about
this topic. It is clear your knowledge on
this topic, is sorely lacking.


Purl Gurl


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glassman
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Don't hold back PG- let us know how you really feel--LOL
The coming bull party could be fun-- we need to keep the pressure up on the powers that be. Speaking of bull parties have bothered to look at the IBZT news-- there might be some unhappy people if that E gets hung on the end. I will load up if it plays down.

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Purl Gurl
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Actually Glassman, I did hold back!

Yeah, my hopes are people around here will
make money on Ibiz. This is fun for all,
even for those not vested.

I enjoy discussion of stocks and the markets
as much as I enjoy many other topics. Might
be I play the Devil's advocate, both in a
positive light and in a negative light, to
the annoyance of others.

Nonetheless, readers need to read both
positive points and negative points. This
is prudent and wise for investors.

You keeping up with that USTT stock?
One says 3.00 by March, "another" says
1.00 by March. USTT keeps on falling
in price! Keeps falling like this, USTT
will have a record breaking day hitting
that one dollar per share mark!

Been working on and cleaning up our
vacant rental all afternoon. Yuck...
This will be a major refurbishing
job, repairs, paint inside and out,
new carpet and all that. Double Yuck...

Purl Gurl


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glassman
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Oh i know you did-LOL--rental props--many neater cleaner jobs-- but i guess they make money for some of you-- i have no luck in RE. Too many hours-- when you add it all up i don't think it pays so well all the time--but,just like trading--it's how smart you work --not how hard
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madmacd
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Interesting read on the impact of short selling. www.otcjournal.com/geist5.html
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metal1
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I was an exchange Specialist for years and know what i'm talking about. yes, there are many complaints about shorting but specifically about the OTCBB. i guess i should clarify. on any listed or major exhange stock shorting is an important tool. but with the BB and PK stocks i think there is obvious manipulation. in that case you are correct. most of these companies are bascially a "scam"(for lack of a better word)anyways since many of them don't even make SEC filings and one never know how many shares are outstanding anyways. i'm not bashing anyone but i guess trading all these minuscule companies comes with additional risks. so these complaints seem like a garbage man wanting to pick up cleaner garbage. lol, enough from me on the subject.......good luck in all your investments.

The amended NASD affirmative determination rule, which was recently approved by the Securities and Exchange Commission, will particularly affect short sales conducted through foreign brokers, most specifically Canadian brokers which have often been used by investors to sell short the stock of small U.S. companies trading on the Over-the-counter Bulletin Board or OTCBB.


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madmacd
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Agreed metal1, I think there is a place for short selling on the big boards as long as it is done in a legitimate fashion. It better defines the pps and values, however, there is no place for liars and cheats who try to downgrade or ruin good companys with persistant, yet unfounded attacks. OTC and PINKS are too fragile for the kind of bombardment the bashers can launch agaist them. Personally I've never sold short. For some reason it just goes against my grain to bet on a losing horse.


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madmacd
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Here is my next sub penny. You can see how it has already taken a bashing.

[This message has been edited by madmacd (edited February 01, 2004).]


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Purl Gurl
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Madmacd, that article by Richard Geist is
an excellent article. I took the time to
read his article several times. Thank you
for providing a link; very beneficial.

Geist writes:

"...An Adhominem argument...attacking a
person's character rather than addressing
the rational flaws...."

Ad Hominem is the basis of Raging Bull boards.
You read this type of logic everywhere. My
habit is to dismiss those engaging in this
type of activity as less than intelligent
and not to be trusted.

What Richard Geist has accomplished is to
adapt logical fallicies of debate to the
topic of stock markets. His writing is
very good and of good common sense.

All should take a little time to read this
article suggested by Madmacd.


Purl Gurl


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Purl Gurl
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I often say with humor,

"Like ugly on homeless panhandling Saddam Hussein."

Pretty funny pictuce! Enjoyed a good laugh!

Purl


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Purl Gurl
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Metal1, you are backpedaling on your
previous statements.

I have a sharp tongue and take pride in
maintaining a sharp mind, although my
mental sharpness fades with age.

Shorting, as indicating in my previous
article, is needed to counterbalance
those who pump. Shorting and pumping
are healthy, in this context of providing
counterbalance and leveling stock prices
to more true values.

Nonetheless, this new NASD rule is without
merit containing a deliberate hole for
those I roll into one ball, Market Makers.
This ball includes Market Makers, headtraders,
specialists, brokers, company owners and
others. Easier to label all as Market Makers.

This hole is the NASD has placed criminals
in charge of enforcing laws (rules) and no
provision nor comment has been provided for
violations of those rules.

Placing Market Markets in charge of this new
rule is to place wolves in charge of tending
a sheep flock.

Market Makers inherently have a huge host
of excuses for wrongdoing.

"I didn't know."
"Didn't look that way to me."
"A record keeping error is at fault."
"Nobody watches nor cares, so why not?"

This NASD rule is toothless and, in my
dubious opinion, is nothing more than a
political ploy to call off the dogs. This
type of political ploy is indicative of
favoritism, more often called corruption.

SEC and their "SHO" rule. Absolutely and
completely toothless. This new SHO rule
to come is both a sham and a scam. This
is another rule written to diminish very
legitimate complaints by private investors.

I view both NASD and the SEC as good examples
of corruption and political favoritism.

Why is this my view? Both the NASD and the
SEC are populated by those who are the
very crooks. When NASD and the SEC start
pulling in members from our pool of private
investors, only then will either have some
degree of credibility. Currently NASD and
the SEC are run by and for, Wall Street.

On unethical shorting of brand name stocks
such as Microsoft, IBM, Disney and others,
the only reason Market Makers do not engage
in unethical or illegal shorting of those
stocks is it costs too much!

There is no magic about less expensive stocks
being shorted, and expensive stocks not being
shorted. It is all a matter of money. This
has nothing to do with ethics nor a lack of
ability to short any stock. It is just money.

All these scandals of late? Nothing new at
all. The SEC and the Feds are prosecuting
a few for public relations only, rather
than for public protection. These "captures"
of crooks, only represent a tiny percentage
of the crime being committed out there.

NASD, SEC, Feds, others, they are actively
engaging in a ploy to fool the public.

During my dialogs with the SEC, they produced
only two prosecutions for shorting, early
last year, in an attempt to convince me they
are actually taking action. Two prosecutions
over a period of one year. Personally, I
would ashamed to admit to that.

Clearly I have no faith in NASD, SEC and
the Feds, for well substantiated reasons.

This lot I call Market Makers, almost all
are outright crooks and are in charge of
those bodies designed to regulate them.

Wolves in sheep clothes, tending a flock
of sheep.


Purl Gurl


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glassman
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I don't have level 11 yet--I have full real time streaming quote-- I can sit here in real time and watch MM's "short" manipulate a stock by watching the volumes on the bid/ask ticker. The asks are large and the bids are tiny-- it looks on the chart like huge voluems are red-- the selling is big--but the ticker tells a different story-- happens all the time in less expensive stocks--did you look up how much income nite had from stocks sold, not yet purchased? Shorting is fine for some things and times but I'm a bull-- I take my losses without whining and i wait till the crying game is over and jump on that bull.
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Purl Gurl
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Incidently, the average amount of time taken
by the SEC to investigate and respond to
public complaints, is two years. Almost
all public complaints appear to be ignored.

How many legitimate responses have you
received from the SEC addressing your
stated concerns? Out of dozens of mails
I have sent to dozens of SEC offices,
in total, I received one response and
that response was a whitewash job.

BAH! Crooks, one and all.


Purl Gurl


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Purl Gurl
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NITE! One of the worst of offenders! Any
fool like you and I, can easily see what
they are doing. There are many others just
like NITE, many others.

Has the SEC put them out of business?

Pffttt....

Purl Gurl


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glassman
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Sometimes letters to politicians help-- but sometimes they just create another 2 names to add to the politicans potential contributors list-- yours and whoever you're complaining about--LOL


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