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raybond
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Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy speaks like a man from another century. In an interview with conservative radio host Dana Loesch, Bundy claims that “this is a sovereign state of Nevada.” Though he swears that he will “abide by all of Nevada state laws,” he adds that “I don’t recognize [the] United States Government as even existing.”

Last week, that idiosyncratic belief nearly triggered a violent conflict with federal officials. For two decades, those officials have tried and failed to keep Bundy from illegally grazing his cattle on federal land. They’ve obtained three court orders — one of them as long ago as 1998 — requiring Bundy to remove his cattle from federal land. The more recent orders, both from 2013, gave Bundy 45 days to comply or else “the United States is entitled to seize and remove to impound any of Bundy’s cattle that remain in trespass.” Bundy did not comply, and government-hired wranglers began rounding up Bundy’s livestock last Saturday.

Egged on by media figures like Fox News’ Sean Hannity and Tea Party groups like the Koch-funded Americans for Prosperity, Bundy quickly became a conservative celebrity — including among right-wing fringe groups. By Wednesday, right-wing militia members began to arrive in Nevada to “provide armed response” to federal officials seeking to enforce the court order.

As the potential for violence escalated, the feds decided to back down. This Saturday, the Bureau of Land Management stopped rounding up Bundy’s cattle and returned hundreds of animals they had already rounded up to the open range. “Due to escalating tensions,” the BLM explained in a statement, “the cattle have been released from the enclosures in order to avoid violence and help restore order.”

Given Bundy’s rather unusual understanding of the law (at one point, he demanded that the local sheriff disarm all National Park Service employees and bring their firearms to him), the presence of his armed supporters, and the willingness of major conservative outlets to serve as his public relations agents, BLM’s decision to avoid a violent conflict is understandable. Nevertheless, there is an obvious danger to allowing Bundy to get away with two decades of illegal action merely because he was able to muster armed supporters to his cause. If Bundy escapes from this incident without consequence, that sends a pretty clear message that federal law is optional so long as you have enough people with guns backing you up.

Here are three ways that the federal government might ensure that Bundy and at least some of his armed supporters are brought to justice:

1) Contempt of Court:

The normal sanction when a person subject to a court order refuses to comply with it is contempt of court. Contempt, according to a manual provided to federal prosecutors, is “an act of disobedience or disrespect towards the judicial branch of the government, or an interference with its orderly process.” By law, federal courts may “punish by fine or imprisonment, or both” when someone engages in “[d]isobedience or resistance to its lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command.”

As a general rule, courts must “exercise the least possible power to obtain the desired result,” meaning that a federal judge should not issue a sweeping contempt sanction when lesser sanction will suffice to ensure that the person subject to contempt proceedings complies with the court’s order. Nevertheless, the fact that Bundy was willing to defy a court order for 20 years — and that he could rally supporters willing to put up armed resistance to federal law enforcement to his cause — suggests that he would simply ignore any fines that a court imposed on him. A judge may decide that the best way to convince Bundy that the federal government exists is to jail him until he agrees to comply with the court’s order.

2) Criminal Charges for Threats To Federal Officers

Federal law provides that anyone who “threatens to assault, kidnap, or murder, a United States official, a United States judge [or] a Federal law enforcement officer . . . with intent to impede, intimidate, or interfere with such official, judge, or law enforcement officer while engaged in the performance of official duties, or with intent to retaliate against such official, judge, or law enforcement officer on account of the performance of official duties” may be fined or imprisoned for up to 10 years (although a threat to assault carries a maximum sentence of only 6 years). So, if Bundy or his supporters threatened federal officials or law enforcement officers who were enforcing the court order against him, they could have committed a serious crime.

There is one big caveat to this approach, however. Although the First Amendment permits some laws banning threatening language, under the “True Threat” Doctrine, these bans are only permitted when they target “those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals.” Moreover, at least one older Supreme Court case suggests that threatening language is not a “true threat” when it is made using conditional language. Thus, for example, if Bundy said something like “if you Feds don’t get off this land in two days, I will kill every last one of you,” that may not constitute a true threat because he placed a condition on what the federal officials would have to do before he killed them.

Among legal scholars, the current state of the True Threat Doctrine is widely viewed as incoherent, so there is some uncertainty about which kinds of threatening statements could form the basis of a prosecution against Bundy and his supporters.

3) Criminal Charges Against Militia Members Who Brought Guns To Nevada

Another federal law provides that “[w]hoever transports or manufactures for transportation in commerce any firearm, or explosive or incendiary device, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be used unlawfully in furtherance of a civil disorder” may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years. This statute could potentially form the basis for criminal charges against some of the militia members who traveled to Nevada with their guns in order to support Bundy. In order to convict someone charged under this law, federal prosecutors would need to prove that the militia member transported their gun with reason to know that it would be used “unlawfully in furtherance of a civil disorder,” so this statute could not be used against someone who had no reason to suspect that they were traveling towards anything other than a peaceful protest. A civil disorder is defined as “any public disturbance involving acts of violence by assemblages of three or more persons, which causes an immediate danger of or results in damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual.”

At least some of Bundy’s supporters made statements to the press suggesting that they fully intended to use their weapons to further such a disorder. One militia member, for example, said that he was at the ranch to provide “armed response,” adding that “[w]e need guns to protect ourselves from the tyrannical government.” Similarly, a message purporting to be from one militia organization that was published on several right-wing websites announced that “[w]e have made the decision to mobilize to Nevada” and concluded with a fairly explicit statement suggesting that the purpose of this mobilization was to spark a deadly conflict: “All men are mortal, most pass simply because it is their time, a few however are blessed with the opportunity to chose their time in performance of duty.”

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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CashCowMoo
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What I saw was a militarized BLM. Why are all these federal agencies in need of their own paramilitary wings?

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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this whole thing is disgraceful to just about everyone who's been involved. on both sides...

i would like to know how long the ranchers were ranching there before thy were told to leave. there's severl dozen ranchers in that area alone that were run off the land that is bascially worthless. even for raisning cattle it's not good land..

i'm pretty sure that they been ranching out in that area for about 100 years or so even tho it's not prime land for rainsing anythign but dust devils.

That is apparently the legal basis for him refusing to leave, and them being unable to legally make him go...

if they were really legally able to make him leave they would have 20 years ago like they wanted..

this is another prime example of of the Government being run by a bunch ignorant bureacrats that do stupid stuff like this:

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i don't agree with most of these bozo's that were waving the flag after 9-11 and now don't want to pay for their governmtn anymore, so i'm not on this rancehers side at all... but this ain't how you deal with it.


i would also like to know why ground beef hit 5 dollars a pound now, and the governmnt has run all the ranchers off worhtless land so that the cattle can be raised on feedlots that are disgusting unhealthy for the animals and u s people who eat them...

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glassman
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here's the alternative to range fed cattle...

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that is California largest feedlot. and most of those cows are literally waistdeep in chit. yum!

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
here's the alternative to range fed cattle...

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that is California largest feedlot. and most of those cows are literally waistdeep in chit. yum!

I have seen feedlots in other states...not nearly as bad as that. I saw an article about McDonalds potatoes that they use. Not sure if it was real or not but described how they spray the fields in Idaho with so much crap that farmers wont go out on the fields until 5 days after the spray, and then the potatoes have to be stored in a warehouse for a while to let the chemicals air out before they process them.


Our foods are so polluted these days.

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glassman
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yeah, there's alot of bad stuff going on the ag biz you don't want to know about.
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IWISHIHAD
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Think about the foods you eat from other countries and how they grow and process it.

Garlic is used in most everything these days, and a good percentage is dehydrated and re-hydrated.
I personally get and upset stomach when i eat this form of garlic, the fresh does not bother me.
This is probably for good reason. A lot comes from out of the country, and many wholesalers use products from outside the US, a few will check the farms that are growing their products for the conditions of the fields and the type of fertilizers etc. that are used.
If we all knew some of the conditions and the negitive items found, we would not eat that food unless we were really really hungry.

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CashCowMoo
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http://therightscoop.com/this-clip-of-chris-hayes-vs-bundy-supporter-assemblywom an-michele-fiore-is-awesome/

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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raybond
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"Western Re-Run: Nevada Rancher Versus The Feds"



rancher
CREDIT: AP Photo/Toby Brusseau

In the West, we’ve seen this Cliven Bundy movie before. And with every re-run, the worn out story line of the heroic independent rancher standing up to the dictatorial federal government gets more tiresome.

Bundy, for those who have been paying attention to more important news, is the southern Nevada rancher who, after two decades of refusing to pay the ridiculously modest fees for grazing his cattle on federal land, provoked an armed standoff with the federal Bureau of Land Management when the agency’s employees came to confiscate Bundy’s cows. His stand attracted hundreds of self-described militiamen and other fringe-dwellers who couldn’t resist the siren call of what was portrayed as an honest-to-God western range war.

The notion of a range war is irresistible. It’s like an intravenous injection of the cowboy mythology that runs so deep in American history and which continues to distort our public lands policies to this day. Google “Cliven Bundy and range war” and you get close to a quarter million hits.

Google “Wayne Hage and range war” and you get almost 6.5 million hits. Some of them lead to stories I wrote in the 1990’s when I covered public lands issues for the Washington Post and Hage, another Nevada rancher, was in a long-running cattle battle with U.S. Forest Service and maniacally playing the range war card.

One of those stories began like this: “Cattleman Wayne Hage — rhymes with rage — is one angry cowboy.” Other than the rhyme, you could substitute Cliven Bundy for Wayne Hage and have pretty much the same story.

Hage ranched near the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest in Nevada, and leased grazing allotments on about three-quarters of a million acres of public land in the forest. He sparred over and over again with the Forest Service during the 1980s over his treatment of that federal land. The agency eventually canceled some of his permits and confiscated and sold more than 100 of his cows.

Hage then filed a lawsuit claiming compensation of $28 million for what he termed an unlawful taking of his property by the federal government which he said included his rights to water and forage on public land. Hage died in 2006, but his lawsuit lived on until the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit put an end to it and overturned an earlier $4.2 million judgment in Hage’s favor by the U.S. Court of Federal Claims.

As all of this legal tussling was going on, Hage wrote a book, “Storm Over Rangelands: Private Rights in Federal Lands.” One memorable line from the book: “Range War! Here and now!” was one I couldn’t resist putting in my story, too.

As High Country News reported in a chronology of the Hage case, he inspired other lawsuits and the Nevada ranchers who filed them all lost. Among them was Cliff Gardner from Elko County who fought all the way to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals after the Forest Service revoked his grazing permit for abusing public land. Likewise Cliven Bundy, who was first ordered by a federal court to remove his cows from federal lands in 1998.

Some of the particulars of all these range war cases differ, but the basics are the same: ranchers who stubbornly insist the federal government doesn’t have the authority to tell them what they can do on public lands, that someone else — the state or the ranchers themselves — actually owns those lands.

This notion has been thoroughly discredited over and over again in the courts. The simple fact is, the hundreds of millions of acres managed by agencies like the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service are owned by the public and how they are used is determined by laws approved by Congress and carried out by the agencies.

When renegade ranchers don’t play by the rules — and the federal agencies have gotten better about requiring more environmentally sound grazing practices after decades of damaging ones — those ranchers get punished. It’s called the rule of law.

It’s not like the deal is so bad for public lands ranchers, either. Right now they are paying $1.35 a month for each cow/calf combination eating our grass. By comparison, the average grazing fee on private land in the West is $16.80 a month, according to the Congressional Research Service, and ranges between $2.28 and $150 on state lands in the region.

The federal lands grazing program is like supercharged food stamps for bovines. And it is massively subsidized. As the U.S. Government Accountability Office reported in 2005, the program brought in $21 million in fees paid by ranchers, but cost $144 million to run.

If Cliven Bundy had paid his grazing fees, it would have narrowed that gap. But not by much

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glassman
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The federal lands grazing program is like supercharged food stamps for bovines. And it is massively subsidized. As the U.S. Government Accountability Office reported in 2005, the program brought in $21 million in fees paid by ranchers, but cost $144 million to run.


that sounds about right... and if we really wanted to fix our government we'd figure out why it costs so much to do a simple job...

i know why it happens but i don't know how to fix it because when you try to point out the real problems the bureacrats just make your life miserable...

bureacrats are like lawyers but dumber...

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raybond
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You have made your point Glass.

My point is Cliven Bundy is nothing more than your freeloading corporate welfare swine,who does not want to pay his way.

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

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glassman
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lotta parasites on this planet...
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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
You have made your point Glass.

My point is Cliven Bundy is nothing more than your freeloading corporate welfare swine,who does not want to pay his way.

a freeloading corporate swine....could you explain in detail why you chose that language for this situation? I dont mean your usual name calling and ignorant statements.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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Pagan
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Dumb

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It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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raybond
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Hey commie, aka cashcow, don't worry about what I call the freeloading mooch bundy. You just found a cheaper place to graze and have a lot of company for lunch. That's why you side with bundy you want grazing rights,now its clear to me.

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CashCowMoo
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quote:
Originally posted by raybond:
Hey commie, aka cashcow, don't worry about what I call the freeloading mooch bundy. You just found a cheaper place to graze and have a lot of company for lunch. That's why you side with bundy you want grazing rights,now its clear to me.

I am not taking any side. You imagine so much and think its reality. Its like you are on a permanent LSD trip.

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It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.

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glassman
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everything about this stinks.

the BLM began this effort to restrict grazing out there 25 years ago to save the desert tortoise. but in th elast couple years they cut funding to that too...

wht they have not cut funding to is the "militarization" of most of the branches of our govt.

security is paramount, but it is also parasitic to real productivty.

i think that is how the Soviets collapsed too... the terrorists know this. why don't we? they're just cavemen? is that it?

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CashCowMoo
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by glassman:
[QB] everything about this stinks.

the BLM began this effort to restrict grazing out there 25 years ago to save the desert tortoise. but in th elast couple years they cut funding to that too...

wht they have not cut funding to is the "militarization" of most of the branches of our govt.

security is paramount, but it is also parasitic to real productivty.

i think that is how the Soviets collapsed too... the terrorists know this. why don't we? they'


Because they are focused on killing and not making money.

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raybond
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.

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.


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The Bundy Ranch Militia Is Wearing Out Its Welcome

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The Atlantic Wire


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The Bundy Ranch saga may be over as a conservative talking point, thanks to Cliven Bundy's weird racist comments and even weirder and more racist attempt to defend those comments, but its memory lives on -- in the form of the armed militia that rose to his aid when the Bureau of Land Management came to take his cattle.


The BLM left weeks ago, but the militia is sticking around so no one gets any funny ideas. That means Bunkerville residents now have to deal with a bunch of armed people around its roads, schools and churches. Some are understandably scared. Also, the militia have set up checkpoints on the roads, where residents have to prove they live there before being allowed to drive on. That's just inconvenient. Bunkerville wants them out.

That's the claim Rep. Steven Horsford is making, both in a letter to the sheriff posted on his website last week and yesterday at a Democratic convention in Las Vegas.

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Horsford also said on his site that his office has "made contact with appropriate federal agencies" about the militia. We all know what the Bundy supporters think of federal agencies. It's probably best for everyone concerned if this problem is taken care of at the local or state level.

Meanwhile, some of the Bundys and their supporters have complaints of their own. On Friday, Bundy's sister, sons and several supporters filed criminal reports against the BLM agents who tried to take Bundy's cattle, accusing them of impersonating police officers, assault and threatening with deadly weapons. Bundy's son Ammon said the BLM agents could go and file their own complaints against the people who threatened them.

The police department didn't appear to be taking the Bundy complaints very seriously, telling the Las Vegas Review-Journal in a statement: "It is not our practice to take crime reports on law enforcement agencies conducting a law enforcement function."

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Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

Posts: 3767 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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