posted
How many times should the government tax long term capital gains? That is not his employment income being taxed at 15%.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: How many times should the government tax long term capital gains? That is not his employment income being taxed at 15%.
this wouldn't be an issue as far as i am concerned if we weren't one whole year of GDP into debt cash.
i'm sick of hearing them call this "class warfare".
it's a simple proposition. pay off the debt. if you are a laborer assembling cars (for instance) you are paying more tax than the people you work FOR.
I know how the rich (supposedly) pay all the taxes when you only count income taxes, but the Govt doesn't run on only Income taxes. Gasoline and social security taxes are taken from every single person.
IF the Buffets and Romneys of the world are so important that we should tax them at alower rate? Then how come this Nation did so much better when we taxed them at a higher rate? it's a fantasy, that's what the "low tax" people are peddling. We were much more productive when we taxed the wealthy at a higher rate. thats the facts.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Mitt Romney said 25 percent- that's about right in wartime. after we pay off this war debt, it could be as low 17.5% and we could still live the American Dream....
At the Fox News Republican debate in Myrtle Beach, S.C. Monday night the five remaining candidates were queried about what they believed the highest possible federal income tax rate should be.
While the rest of the field offered substantive percentages, Texas Rep. Ron Paul set himself apart by saying that Americans’ income tax rate should be zero percent. (RELATED: Full coverage of Ron Paul’s campaign)
“We should have the lowest tax that we’ve ever had, and up until 1913 it was zero percent,” Paul said. “What’s so bad about that?”
By contrast Texas Gov. Rick Perry said the highest rate should be 20 percent, Gingrich said the highest rate should be 15 percent, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney said 25 percent and former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum said it should be 28 percent.
posted
I agree with Paul on the ZERO income tax...
Every penny of income tax collected goes straight to the federal reserve which is nothing more than a printing press for congress.
As long as the current system is in place, congress has the ability to borrow and spend against our hard earned money on war, special interests or anything else they please...
As long as this system is in place, our national debt will NEVER go down.
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
the Founders set up a tax collection system based on import duties (tarrifs) and revenue taxes.
in 1800, custom (import) duties comprised about 84% of government receipts..... federal revenue collections (as opposed to tariffs on imports) were mostly from taxes on alcohol. In 1900 over 60% of internal revenue collections came from alcohol excise taxes with another 20% from tobacco excise taxes. Prohibition couldn't be established AND run the govt to enforce it.......
basically Paul is trying to establish the fact surrouding the Founders to keep the rest of these guys honest. We could probably operate decently on 10% of GDP provided we returned many Federal services back to the States. But we alos have to remeber that a major part of the reason the Feds became so strong is that differnt States had very differnt ideas about civil rights, and Prohibition and contorl of alcohol and drugs...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well, I am sick of seeing these leftists on MSNBC going around saying "oh look how rich white man mitt romney only pays 15% in taxes"
Of course, the drones go ..yeah yeah he is Republican and is only paying 15%!
Here is a scenario:
Say I make $400,000 in 2011 I get taxed at 35%! 35% of that is stripped from me and gone into DC where it is spent on pork or whatever. Of course, 35% is not enough to take for those who are greedy in government.
So I get taxed $140,000 right off the top. I take $200,000 and invest it into something. I get taxed AGAIN over a year later at 15% (which I think its changing).
So I end up giving 50% ....FIFTY to the government. Yet to liberals, that is not enough. These people are just sick.
So Romney gets taxed twice and people are complaining because they dont understand how capital gains and investing work. They arent complaining because there is a problem, they are just complaining because he is a Republican.
Mitt Romney at least pays his taxes unlike many in the Obama administration.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CashCowMoo: Well, I am sick of seeing these leftists on MSNBC going around saying "oh look how rich white man mitt romney only pays 15% in taxes"
Of course, the drones go ..yeah yeah he is Republican and is only paying 15%!
Here is a scenario:
Say I make $400,000 in 2011 I get taxed at 35%! 35% of that is stripped from me and gone into DC where it is spent on pork or whatever. Of course, 35% is not enough to take for those who are greedy in government.
So I get taxed $140,000 right off the top. I take $200,000 and invest it into something. I get taxed AGAIN over a year later at 15% (which I think its changing).
So I end up giving 50% ....FIFTY to the government. Yet to liberals, that is not enough. These people are just sick.
So Romney gets taxed twice and people are complaining because they dont understand how capital gains and investing work. They arent complaining because there is a problem, they are just complaining because he is a Republican.
Mitt Romney at least pays his taxes unlike many in the Obama administration.
Wow...you really are stupid! Let's eliminate Income Tax, Capital Gain Tax, and Sales Tax to boot. So then we have no Federal or State governments. What's next Einstein? You always shoot your mouth off with little regard to reality. It doesn't matter if your GOP or DEM...the government needs money to operate. And the pork you refer to, that is also part of the military ya frickin crybaby. Get a clue and quit whining. You are such a waste.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
pagan is right cash, you ONLY get taxed on PROFITS, so your math is just wrong.... there is nothing wrong with taxing capital gains at the same rate as regular income.m In fact it's never hurt US in the past... we collapsed when they lowered it.
i for one like the Coast Guard, and i also like the notion that all that all salmon and tuna won't be hauled in with gigantic trawl nets, so that i can go catch at least JUST one for myself and my descendants will be able to also...
there's lots of crap to strip out of the Govt, but lets do it correctly....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
So Romney gets taxed twice and people are complaining because they dont understand how capital gains and investing work. They arent complaining because there is a problem, they are just complaining because he is a Republican.
you have obviously never filed a tax return other than a 1040EZ in yourlife.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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First-In, First-Out Method of Identification Even if the shareholder cannot specific particular shares to sell, the actual cost basis method can still be used. You keep track of your cost basis for every lot of shares you buy. When calculating your gain, you assume that the first shares sold are the first shares you bought.
Average Cost Basis, Single Category Method You calculate your average cost basis based on the price paid for each share you bought, including any reinvested dividends and reinvested capital gains. The average cost basis is the total purchase price of all shares divided by the number of shares owned. When you sale some shares, it is assumed the shares are sold on a first-in, first-out basis. Your capital gain is calculated using the holding period of the oldest shares being sold, even if you are selling a mixture of long-term and short-term shares.
Average Cost Basis, Double Category Method You calculate your average cost basis based on the price paid for each lot of shares you bought, including any reinvested dividends and reinvested capital gains. However, you must separate your shares into long-term and short-term investments, and then calculate average cost basis for each category of shares. The average cost basis is the total purchase price of all shares of the same category divided by the number of shares owned in that category. When you sale some shares, it is assumed the shares are sold on a first-in, first-out basis.
Reinvested Dividends and Capital Gains Distributions Many investors re-invest dividends and capital gains distributions received from their mutual funds. Each reinvestment is both a cash distribution and an additional fund purchase. The dividends and capital gains distributions are included taxable income. The additional shares purchased in the reinvestment have their own cost basis (the purchase price of the shares) and their own holding period.
Planning Ahead for 2013 The special tax rates on long-term gains and qualified dividends will expire on December 31, 2012. Starting 2013, the tax rate on long-term gains will be 20% (or 10% if a taxpayer is in the fifteen percent tax bracket). Also starting in 2013, the distinction between ordinary and qualified dividends will disappear, and all dividends will be subject to the ordinary tax rates.
Also beginning in 2013, capital gain income will be subject to an additional 3.8% Medicare tax.
ther eis nothing wrong with paying the lowest amount of taxes that you are legally liable for.
FACT: Congress adn the WH have, for decades now made exotic tax laws to benefit themselves and their lobbyist friends...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Hmmm...I think I am already paying most of those federal taxes anyway Glass
Gas tax? yup Alcohol & tobacco tax? yup Stock trading tax? yup 15% inflation tax on food and clothing? yup & yup Health care tax? yup Social security tax? yup Utilities tax? yup Communications tax? yup Entertainment tax? yup Cars? Homes? can't afford them because of so many other taxes...
I pay taxes if I:
make money spend money save money inherit money give money away buy food kill my own food buy clothing make my own clothing smoke drink own a home rent a home heat my home educate my children use electricity drive a car rent a car fly on a plane ride on a bus or train talk on the phone watch TV surf the internet
and...I am even expected to pay taxes if I DIE
Whenever the federal government gets involved in any facet of our lives, two things ALWAYS happen...
the cost goes up the quality goes down
IMO...Government SPENDING and the violation of our personal liberties are the two biggest problems in this country today...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to not care about taxes. Sure, I want to pay the lowest amount I can but I do not let it affect the strategies I use to invest my capital.
I may pay more because of it but I also make more because of it, and making money is what it is all about.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
you are pretty much right buck. i tend to think of the quality as a wash for a number of reasons, mostly cuz the govt doesn't always bother to to do it's job. but htey are involved in everything and they don't need to be.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to not care about taxes. Sure, I want to pay the lowest amount I can but I do not let it affect the strategies I use to invest my capital.
I may pay more because of it but I also make more because of it, and making money is what it is all about.
NOT CARE about taxes??? you need to get a new mentor BF
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
So buck do you stand by the tax hikes in Obamacare?
Employer mandate tax, surtax on investment incomes, increased medicare payroll tax, HSA withdrawal tax increase, taxing tanning salons, and many many more other tax increases.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Do I care if that money I am supplying the government is used wisely? Yes, I do.
This is why I support education initiatives. Without my broad-based education I could not be making the returns I am making.
It is why I support health initiatives including Obamacare. A healthy society has time and focus. An unhealthy society has pain and is so busy taking care of essentials, there is no room for growth.
If I reach my max tax rate that means I have also reached a greater revenue yield than the majority of our population which in turn earns the most of any population on earth. This is something for me to be proud of, not resort to trickery to avoid.
Oh, and Buck, the particular mentor I was referring to with that statement was Gerald Leob. Chapter 50: Don't let tax questions cloud Investment decisions. The Battle for Investment Survival by Gerald Leob
I have extrapolated it beyond the market but I believe it holds true to every circumstance.
Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society. ~Franklin D. Roosevelt
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: The more I pay the more it means I made.
Simple as that.
Do I care if that money I am supplying the government is used wisely? Yes, I do.
This is why I support education initiatives. Without my broad-based education I could not be making the returns I am making.
It is why I support health initiatives including Obamacare. A healthy society has time and focus. An unhealthy society has pain and is so busy taking care of essentials, there is no room for growth.
If I reach my max tax rate that means I have also reached a greater revenue yield than the majority of our population which in turn earns the most of any population on earth. This is something for me to be proud of, not resort to trickery to avoid.
Oh, and Buck, the particular mentor I was referring to with that statement was Gerald Leob. Chapter 50: Don't let tax questions cloud Investment decisions. The Battle for Investment Survival by Gerald Leob
I have extrapolated it beyond the market but I believe it holds true to every circumstance.
Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society. ~Franklin D. Roosevelt
No...Look at your "bottom line", the more you pay the less you have made...Here's the math
If I buy a widget for $10.00 and sell it for $100.00, I made $90.00 If I buy a widget for $10.00 pay another $10.00 in tax and sell it for $100.00, I made $80.00
Problem #1 The money that you are supplying to the government ISN"T be used wisely, quite the contrary.
Problem #2 Not all Americans have the "broad-based education" that you were lucky enough to receive and taxes are nothing more than a "burden" to these people...they don't make enough to live, let alone invest.
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Unfortunately Buck, your 'no tax' argument has no grounding in current reality. We cannot stop paying taxes until at the least our debt we have incurred is paid off or we would destroy the worlds economy along with our own.
Then we would have to figure a different vehicle for maintaining and upgrading our current infrastructure, paying the military, and whatever other government services our elected representatives decide are imperative to Americans quality of life (sound familiar?). What you would be left with would be years of preparation, transition, and uncertainty leading to....another version of what we have right now. Pity.
The money I am supplying is not always being used the way I want it. I did not want Iraq. But I elected my representatives because our nation is too big for each taxpayer to have a fully informed vote on every issue. I respect that the person who represents me made a choice no matter if I voted for them or a majority of my neighbors did.
Perhaps in time the quicker communication of the internet will allow a chance to change the political process. Representation not based on geographical area but on ideology. Or perhaps the opportunity to have non-binding public voting on bills prior to house and senate votes. For now though we have the system we have and it is fueled by federal taxes.
As to your second problem? I agree wholeheartedly. We must embrace and champion education. From pre-K to affordable college it must be done. Things change too quickly in our world now to allow a skills gap between public education and labor market requirements to continue to exist. That will take considerable funding, cooperation and corroboration between public education and private businesses, and probably a re-institution of some form of apprentice program. All in my opinion of course.
Too get back to the main topic: I do think cap gains should be raised to mirror national average income tax rate with a further 5% added for men like me who are short term speculators and a further 5% added for short positions.
My main problem with Mitt (other than ideology)is that he consistently attempts to pretend he is something other than he is. I would be much more comfortable with him if he had admitted from the beginning that he is a career politician and that he grew up in privilege. He is not an average joe and never has been, but he consistently attempts to play one on TV. I don't like that.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Too get back to the main topic: I do think cap gains should be raised to mirror national average income tax rate with a further 5% added for men like me who are short term speculators and a further 5% added for short positions.
this is going to make alot of traders howl.
in my opinion we need to implement 1 cent tax on each stock or contract traded. For penny stocks it can be 1%, whichever is less.
I know that makes it seem like i am penalising all of us who trade, but it would actually help most of us little guys and hurt the computer traders. People need to realise that computerised trading is just "painting the charts". One cent might not be enough but i beleive it would based on what i have been able to learn about it.
We must pay our debts NOW. 30% of GDP should be our maximum amount of debt carried and that should be in wartime. In peacetime 20% of GDP is all we should carry. The govt does waste moeny, but trying to compare Govt to business is stupid too, cuz less then half of all businesses survive.
The Govt has to not just survive, but succeed every day.
I and most people realise the govt no longer represents "the people" -that's why the term "class warfare" is becoming so "popular". The Govt has lost it's way and can be regained. But it won't be regained unless people start making decisions based on facts and not the slop they are feeding us on TV these days.
Anybody notice that GM made it back to number one yesterday? The GOP isn't going to do very well trying to beat up on Obama for that either
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Bigfoot: Unfortunately Buck, your 'no tax' argument has no grounding in current reality.
Says who? Are you an economist? In the first place I never stated NO taxes...I said no income taxes. They are a burden on the working class, have no constitutional basis and have become a lavish slush fund for congress to do with whatever they please...
For the first time in our lives, we have a candidate running for president that is telling us that congressional spending is out of control...and HE IS A CONGRESSMAN...Why wouldn't I believe him. He also maintains that we can run the government just fine WITHOUT income taxes...He's an economist, so why shouldn't I believe him on that too.
As far as Romney portraying himself as an average joe... that is just about as deceitful as Obama portraying himself as one. I'm surprised that you like Obama so much...as there is very little difference between him and good ole Mitt...
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It's all in the timing... Posts: 4303 | From: DSA | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
the original constitution did not allow for income taxes, but the 16th Amendment in 1913 changed that... They were wroking on Prohibition and need to get that in place first:
Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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it was originally designed to limit the power of the wealthy and it was actually popular. People voted for it, alot of them...
the Federal Reserve was also created in 1913.
in 1907 we had stock market "panic" that was similar to what we have just gone thru. We've been doing this for a long time. The Fed was supposed to stop these cycles, but it didn't. It has made them more bearable by the general popluace tho...
It's the nature of Capitalism. boom and bust...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by buckstalker: That's right Glass...from what I've read, a very small group of congressmen snuck it through on Christmas eve of 1913
Gotta question Buck. If we eliminate income tax....what effect would that have on government? Not arguing....just curious of your thoughts.
-------------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Posts: 3311 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
If you want to go from an income tax to a consumption tax or some other tax that's all well and good. Capital Gains isn't an income tax though I agree it should be treated as such if we do have an income tax. I won't fight different taxation scenario's. I am open to that.
No matter what scenario we adapt though it will not ultimately change how much is needed to support our current national lifestyle.
Nobody is gonna disagree that we need to spend less. But as we have seen they will disagree vociferously on what we spend less on. The ultimate irony of all this bitterness is that it doesn't even get to the core of things. Cutting future spending does not pay old bills. And saying getting rid of waste will help is like drinking coffee out of a cup with a hole in the bottom. For every innovative idea you have in how to do it you will never be able to plug the hole and have a usable cup at the same time.
And finally, no matter what taxation scenario you come up with, the more you make-the more you will pay in taxes. Which is, in reverse, the exact same thing I said yesterday.
The more I pay it means the more I made.
Simple as that.
If I reach my max tax rate that means I have also reached a greater revenue yield than the majority of our population which in turn earns the most of any population on earth. This is something for me to be proud of, not resort to trickery to avoid.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
i don't think it's fair to characterise Romney's lower tax rate as "trickery". The laws are on the books, and i get what you are saying Big, you don't set up your investments based on tax loopholes. BUT limited partnerships and certain corporations have special tax provisions because they were added tot he code to benefit them specifically.
Taxes have been collected one way or another since time began. I would rather pay taxes to have cops than i would to have mafioso style "protection".
It is perfectly legit to pay the least amount you are legally liable for, the question is why do we let the govt pick the winners and losers in the Tax game? But then question it when it comes to subsidies?
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by buckstalker: That's right Glass...from what I've read, a very small group of congressmen snuck it through on Christmas eve of 1913
Gotta question Buck. If we eliminate income tax....what effect would that have on government? Not arguing....just curious of your thoughts.
Well for starters we could close a majority of the foreign military bases that we have overseas...there are currently over 900 military bases (that we are aware of) spread across the globe. (we still have 268 bases in Germany, 124 in Japan, and 87 in South Korea alone) That alone would save us tens of billions of dollars a year (estimates are 12 to 15 billion dollars a year savings if we closed just 200 to 300 bases)
posted
Here is an interesting story by Readers Digest back in 2008 on wasteful spending by the government...
They estimate that the U.S. Federal government wastes approximately 1 trillion dollars per year...about the same amount that they collect annually in personal income tax...
Almost a decade ago, the federal government dropped $100 million for an Earth-monitoring satellite that never made it into space. Today it sits in a closet in Maryland.
i dug into the story.... turns out the satellite was to observe global warming and the GOP dumped it.
Climate observer mothballed By Erin Chapman April 7, 2011
The world’s most advanced climate observer has been on ice for almost a decade. In a feature for Popular Science‘s April 2011 issue, writer Bill Donahue tracks down the earth-monitoring satellite DSCVR (Deep Space Climate Observatory) that was supposed to be launched back in 2001. He finds the $100 million device stowed in a Maryland warehouse — a probable victim of politics and inter-agency bureaucracy.
DSCVR isn’t the only climate satellite with problems: Donahue’s piece refers to the “delayed” Glory project but doesn’t mention that it actually crashed in a failed launch attempt last month. And in 2009, the OCO (Orbiting Carbon Observatory) satellite similarly succumbed to mechanical defects and was lost before reaching orbit.
A new climate research satellite — the OCO-2 — is slated for launch early in 2013, but given current budget negotiations and a push from House Republicans to slash federally-funded climate change research, OCO-2 may find itself relegated to another government warehouse.
seeems some people are afraid the proof might be too much to deal with
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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