posted
in the countries that have nationalised health care? (that would be every other industrialized nation) 10% is the highest tax on the general population to cover everybody...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
10% for health care Glass, then what? Everyone wants this for that. We need more taxes to pay for this, we need more taxes to pay for that.
It is always more, it is always something. It is a monster that wont stop.
-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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-------------------- It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so. Posts: 6949 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Let's not get off track already, Cash.
Is 10% your answer Glass?
ten percent covers everybody, and that's the point.
but not in America, and it is not becuase we get better service.
how did WalMart build this empire that they have? THEY BUILT IT BY NOT OFFERING HEALTH CARE.
Wal-Mart increases Medicaid expenditures by an average of $898 per employee, according to a study presented on Friday at a conference held by the company to examine the impact of Wal-Mart on the U.S. economy, the New York Times reports (Greenhouse, New York Times, 11/5). Wal-Mart held the conference,
For the Medicaid study, economist Michael Hicks, a professor at the Air Force Institute of Technology, examined the impact of Wal-Mart on government aid programs. According to the study, Medicaid expenditures increase by 1.5% for every 1% that the market share of Wal-Mart increases in a state. The study also found government cash aid to families decreases by 3.3% for every 1% that the market share of Wal-Mart increases in a state.
now, don't misread that- the medicaid spending is by US taxpayers not Walmart.
they were forced to do something about that but if you look to see what they did? you don't find much after 2005.
in 2005 walmart had 100,000 of it's employees on medicare in Tennessee alone.
since you brought up the Christian thing? i'd like to point out that healing and feeding the poor were the ONLY earthly gifts Jesus promised people for following His way.
face facts, we the people have allowed coroporate interests to run our govt for too long.
focus man, focus, the problem is not "the government" it's how the government is working or not working for the people...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I won't debate that the government isn't serving the people, Glass. That's more or less obvious to any impartial observer.
What I was looking for from this question was a 'line' from those who supported this bill here. How much, out of their own pocket, are they willing to do without to make this happen long term. And make no mistake, whether through direct taxes/premium hikes or indirectly through product price increases the middle class WILL pay for this.
The 'christian thing to do' line was more tongue in cheek. Most of the time, especially from the left, the term is invoked by those who openly admit not to follow Him. (Shrug). What I didn't want from this thread was a 'I'm more charitable than you' fest.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
i brought out the walmart thing to make a point tho SF, and that point is that most of the poor people on any kind of government welfare subsidies in our country since the welfare reform (The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996, a bipartisan law) was enacted the "poor" of our nation are for the most part working poor. You have to ask yourself if that isn't a sign that something basic is broken here.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
In my opnion, Glass, that 'something basic' that's broken?
What we, as a culture, value.
Our heroes are idiot movie stars and spoiled athletes. They're rappers and tv actors. The easy dollar and the lotto payout are our retirement plans. Being on welfare used to hold heavy stigma. Now? It's just a way to 'get one's due'.
What happened to the values of education and hard work? Self reliance? Anyone? How about families and taking care of one's own?
I absolutely believe that America in specific and the world in general have been convinced that every problem is someone else's fault and that they can't succeed because the deck is stacked against them...they've been made victims...powerless and pliable.
posted
(Full disclosure: I worker for Walmart for about 3 months years ago)
Just to ask a dumb question?
What is the average education level of a Walmart stocker? How about the average cashier? Door greeter?
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: (Full disclosure: I worker for Walmart for about 3 months years ago)
Just to ask a dumb question?
What is the average education level of a Walmart stocker? How about the average cashier? Door greeter?
good question. i dunno, but i suppose it is low.
so we should educate them all so they can get better jobs and then there's NOBODY to do that job? huh? yeah that works... basically what you seem to me to be saying is that some people don't deserve basic health care.
what i'm saying is that we need those jobs to be done, so the people that do them should be able to live without a govt handout to get them the basics.
and what wallmart is saying is that they like having taxpayers pay the health care on their employees, thereby increasing their bottom line while hiding the true cost of their products from their customers...
that's what's broken, it's people not being honest
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
i always thought starbucks was one of those places that had good benefits... apparently i was wrong:
Faced With IWW Pressure, Starbucks Releases Sub-Par Health Care Number Submitted by intexile on Thu, 01/19/2006 - 5:35am
Coffee Giant Has Lower Percentage of Insured Workers Than Wal-Mart
New York, NY- The myth of a socially responsible Starbucks is steadily unraveling with an admission by the coffe chain that less than half of its employees are covered by company health care. The revelation is all the more remarkable since the company has long promoted itself as a leader in employee health care while the actual percentage of Starbucks workers covered is less than that of Wal-Mart, a corporation notorious for the burden it places on taxpayers via uninsured workers.
"The Starbucks socially responsible image is all smoke and mirrors. Customers always ask, 'you get company health care, right?'" said Pete Montalbano, an IWW barista. "Starbucks employees, many of whom are uninsured or on Medicaid, knew the answer to that all along. Only now, so does everyone else."
After multiple public challenges from the IWW Starbucks Workers Union for this very statistic, the company admitted to the Wall Street Journal that only 42% of its employees are covered by company health care. Wal-Mart covers 47% of employees according to the Journal report. Starbucks' 42% figure includes management officials whose participation in the health care plan is greater because premiums, co-pays, and deductibles are more affordable with their higher earnings. Therefore, the percentage of non-managerial workers covered by company health care at Starbucks is undoubtedly even lower. The union had argued- correctly it turns out - that health care coverage would be significantly lower than one would expect from a company that claims an extraordinary commitment to employee health benefits.
"I'm a mother of four and my Starbucks wage puts me well below the poverty line," said Suley Ayala, an IWW member at the Union Square Starbucks in New York City. "My kids and I are on Medicaid- there's no way I could afford Starbucks health care without a raise and a guaranteed 30 hours of work per week. Starbucks would never budge in the past but as a union member my voice cannot be ignored."
that burns me up, when i payed 4$ for a cup of coffee? i thought i was paying a premium for fair employment practices... the coffee just isn't THAT good...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: In my opnion, Glass, that 'something basic' that's broken?
What we, as a culture, value.
Our heroes are idiot movie stars and spoiled athletes. They're rappers and tv actors. The easy dollar and the lotto payout are our retirement plans. Being on welfare used to hold heavy stigma. Now? It's just a way to 'get one's due'.
What happened to the values of education and hard work? Self reliance? Anyone? How about families and taking care of one's own?
I absolutely believe that America in specific and the world in general have been convinced that every problem is someone else's fault and that they can't succeed because the deck is stacked against them...they've been made victims...powerless and pliable.
That's what's broken, Glass.
Idiot movie stars and spoiled athletes could apply to Reagan and Jim Bunning.
On the other hand, I can hardly watch the NBA anymore, and that's something I use to enjoy.
What you decry actually started part and parcel with WWII, when we used agriculture to pay for the war effort, then afterward threw the farmers to the Cargill/DuPont complex.
Remember the days (you've read about it) when folks were proud to work at one company and get a nice retirement? That was already changing in the late 60s-early 70s.
The poor, welfare people didn't influence major corporations (Wall Street) to send jobs overseas and turn us from an agrarian/manufacturing nation to an economy dominated by "financial engineers."
A lot of what happens to a country happens insidiously, too--right at the cash register, where employers let people work who can't make change, glare at you for interrupting their cell phone call, and chat (loudly) about shortcomings of fellow workers and management. The store owner says, "Well, that's all I can hire." Meanwhile, folks get run down and burned out, and slowly the whole notion of customer service erodes and folks start hating: their jobs, their customers, each other, even themselves.
posted
Meanwhile, folks get run down and burned out, and slowly the whole notion of customer service erodes and folks start hating: their jobs, their customers, each other, even themselves.
the very definition of depression
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Call me selfish, call me whatever you want. I am willing to pony up NOTHING for some person I don't know to get health care just because some corrupt jackasses in Washington say I should. I struggle enough as it is to take care of myself and my family and those that are close to me. I don't need the burden of someone else I don't know weighing me down through increased taxes.
I realize there are some out there who have no one to help them and have bad health or whatever, and need help, but let me help them by my own decision and on my own terms. I love this country but family comes first in my book...
NR.
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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"i always thought starbucks was one of those places that had good benefits... apparently i was wrong:
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They were from what i saw in my short temporary stent there.
I hired on for for a temporary job at Starbucks in between jobs for me, quite aways back.
The job was suppose to be a six or seven week job to help set up one of their bean roasters.
We did it in 4 weeks working 12+ hours a day.
Nothing but the best equiptment to work with and supervisors that appreciated the extra effort.
They paid really well and we had the option to stay on if we wanted.
This is when they were moving into their new big building and were really growing.
Not a lot of retail stores at the time.
Every one i talked to liked the company and said the pay and benefits were great.
I think some of the retail locations were/are franchises and some are Starbucks owned.
But like everything today, many companies go through their harder times and the people at the bottom seem to take the biggest hits and feel it more because of the lower pay.
Not many companies around anymore that look out for employees unless they have to.
My son works for a good one, hope they stay that way, they are hard to find anymore.
If you find a good company, it usually has a one person owner that has been around awhile, with cash that has been accumulated by their hard work over lots of years.
quote:The Office of the Actuary (OACT) of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services publishes data on total health care spending in the United States, including both historical levels and future projections.[36] In 2007, the U.S. spent $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person, up from $2.1 trillion, or $7,026 per capita, the previous year.[37] Spending in 2006 represented 16% of GDP, an increase of 6.7% over 2004 spending. Growth in spending is projected to average 6.7% annually over the period 2007 through 2017. A recently released report on the latest figures showed that the US spent $2.5 trillion, $8,047 per person, on health care in 2009 and that this amount represented 17.3% of the economy, up from 16.2% in 2008.[38] Health insurance costs are rising faster than wages or inflation, and medical causes were cited by about half of bankruptcy filers in the United States in 2001.[39]
10% sounds great when you see those statistics. Even going to 15% would be a reduction in costs while getting (nearly) everyone covered. If we could get back to 15% I would be a happy happy foot. Everyone would be doing the right thing and saving money at the same time.
-------------------- No longer eligible for government service due to lack of tax issues. Posts: 5178 | From: Up North | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Glass, you're pointing to Walmart or Starbucks as a decent place to work. Both are seen as little more than minimum wage hell holes who employ either highschool students or morons. The thought that either would provide health care plans anywhere near the quality seen at a corporate office is just silly. The fact that either provides anything is shocking considering their churn rates. What's the point of offering health care plans when the average employee only works there for a few months?
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: Glass, you're pointing to Walmart or Starbucks as a decent place to work. Both are seen as little more than minimum wage hell holes who employ either highschool students or morons. The thought that either would provide health care plans anywhere near the quality seen at a corporate office is just silly. The fact that either provides anything is shocking considering their churn rates. What's the point of offering health care plans when the average employee only works there for a few months?
i think this new bill requires them to offer it.
who knows? maybe they decide to hire fewer people, pay them better and get higher retention rates.
i'd like to see the funding for health care come out of import duties.
this "1 trillion" over ten years is really "only" 100 billion a year right? that's what they wanted to invade Iraq (OK it was only 80 billion)
last month (jan '10) we "only" imported 147.5 billion in goods.
now that did include oil, but if yo slap an 8% import duty on it anyway, you get 11.7 billion, times twelve and you get 141 billion.
before you get to far into disagreeing consider that most countries that offer natioanlised health care have both a value added (sales) federal tax as well as income tax. Our state sales tax is 7% so why not a 7% import tax and pay for this bill and more?
this of course would have allowed the GOP to claim Obama broke his promise by taxing everybody even the poor, so Obama would have fought it. the GOP could have made him eat it tho if they wanted to.
instead they just want to be constipational.
i thought starbucks was good place to work cuz i heard rumors, as for wallyworld? i've always hated everything abut them.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
anybody who thinks the Founding Fathers should be listened to should like import duties:
July 4, 1789 - Congress passes its first tax, an 8.5 percent protective tax on 30 different items, with items arriving on American ships charged at a lower rate than foreign ships.
July 20, 1789 - Congress passes the Tonnage Act of 1789 levying a 50 cents per ton tax on foreign ships entering American ports, 30 cents per ton on American built but foreign owned ships, and 6 cents per ton on American ships.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
The point is that the new plan is nothing like what other countries have... This plan is not nationalised health care. So why the hell does it cost so much more than what other countries are paying? I'll tell you why. Every piece of legislation passed is aimed at destroying the financial base of this nation. The worst of them all is always the highly touted ones like this bs healthcare initiative.
All this talk of raising taxes... Why? Has no one noticed we as a populace have less to give? How can we afford to pay the government more? If government wants to set groundrules for insurance companies, I'm all for it. But demanding we the people fund what is little more than a monsterous increase in IRS authority? No.. not so much.
I would be willing to even go for a plan like our northerly cannuckian brothers have... But not this crap forced down our throats last week.
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this one, Glass, forgot that my Walmart question required a follow up answer.
quote:good question. i dunno, but i suppose it is low.
Good supposition...there were three kinds of folk that worked in the store with me...the young, the old, and the under-educated.
Relentless is right on the money with this:
"Both are seen as little more than minimum wage hell holes who employ either highschool students or morons."
Walmart is not a career...it's a job that holds you over till you find a real one. It has to be done? Sure, I'll agree to that. But it doesn't take any special skills and there will always be people that qualify.
What we don't want to do is make people want to work there.
What is really at stake right now with team Obama is what is the motivation for excellence in America?
What drives you, Glass? Honestly. What made you struggle and fight to hone your artistic skills and run a business based on them. Surely there were 'safer' ways to go.
Again, what drives you?
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Relentless.: The point is that the new plan is nothing like what other countries have... This plan is not nationalised health care. So why the hell does it cost so much more than what other countries are paying? I'll tell you why. Every piece of legislation passed is aimed at destroying the financial base of this nation. The worst of them all is always the highly touted ones like this bs healthcare initiative.
All this talk of raising taxes... Why? Has no one noticed we as a populace have less to give? How can we afford to pay the government more? If government wants to set groundrules for insurance companies, I'm all for it. But demanding we the people fund what is little more than a monsterous increase in IRS authority? No.. not so much.
I would be willing to even go for a plan like our northerly cannuckian brothers have... But not this crap forced down our throats last week.
i am also for a public option with private options available to those that want it. we ended up with this because the public option was very unpopular. People rightly cried that it would just increase deficit spending and i mostly agree, that's why i bring up taxes.
i have been pushing for import duties to be increased for years because our cumulative trade deficit is now 10 trillion dollars. that money is being lent back to US and we are paying interest on it. Instead? I beleive we should raise taxes on imports to pay the interest and of course stop deficit spending.
raising taxes is how we payed for WW2 and we flourished. The people that keep claiming taxes destroy the economy are not using historical data to argue against it, they are using unproven theory while practical observation of history indicates otherwise.
it's not like i want to pay higher taxes, what i want is to leave my kids a better chance at making it than we have had.
we already pay 16% of our GDP on health care which about double the average of the industrialised world. France is the second highest at "only" 10%
if we raise taxes in imports? it has to be spread across the board evenly so that no one can cry protectionism, after all? we are paying it no one else. It would obviously help make American products and labor more competitive here
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Sorry it took me so long to get back to this one, Glass, forgot that my Walmart question required a follow up answer.
quote:good question. i dunno, but i suppose it is low.
Good supposition...there were three kinds of folk that worked in the store with me...the young, the old, and the under-educated.
Relentless is right on the money with this:
"Both are seen as little more than minimum wage hell holes who employ either highschool students or morons."
Walmart is not a career...it's a job that holds you over till you find a real one. It has to be done? Sure, I'll agree to that. But it doesn't take any special skills and there will always be people that qualify.
What we don't want to do is make people want to work there.
What is really at stake right now with team Obama is what is the motivation for excellence in America?
What drives you, Glass? Honestly. What made you struggle and fight to hone your artistic skills and run a business based on them. Surely there were 'safer' ways to go.
Again, what drives you?
that's a hard question, it's easier for me to ask how people can be lazy, i am not even comfortable sitting here at the computer for more than fifteen minutes at a time.
I am usually looking for something worthwhile to do with my energy.
when i was younger i didn't bother with the worthwhile question much and found myself in trouble pretty regularly, now it's not quite as frequent
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
glassman:that's what's broken, it's people not being honest
Tex: The poor, welfare people didn't influence major corporations (Wall Street) to send jobs overseas and turn us from an agrarian/manufacturing nation to an economy dominated by "financial engineers."
Going away from the Constitution and using Case Law as a substitute under Woodrow Wilson.
Public administration Wilson also studied public administration, which he called "government in action; it is the executive, the operative, the most visible side of government, and is of course as old as government itself".[43] He believed that by studying public administration governmental efficiency could be increased.[44]
Wilson was concerned with the implementation of government. He faulted political leaders who focused on philosophical issues and the nature of government and dismissed the critical issues of government administration as mere "practical detail". He thought such attitudes represented the requirements of smaller countries and populations.[citation needed] By his day, he thought, "it is getting to be harder to run a constitution than to frame one."[45] He thought it time "to straighten the paths of government, to make its business less unbusinesslike, to strengthen and purify its organization, and it to crown its dutifulness".[46] He complained that studies of administration drew principally on the history of Continental Europe and an American equivalent was required.[citation needed] He summarized the growth of such foreign states as Prussia, France, and England, highlighting the events that led to advances in administration.[citation needed]
By contrast, he thought American required greater compromise because of the diversity of public opinion and the difficulty of forming a majority opinion. Thus practical reform to the government is necessarily slow.[citation needed] Yet Wilson insisted that "administration lies outside the proper sphere of politics"[47] and that "general laws which direct these things to be done are as obviously outside of and above administration."[48] He likens administration to a machine that functions independent of the changing mood of its leaders.[citation needed]
Such a line of demarcation is intended to focus responsibility for actions taken on the people or persons in charge. As Wilson put it, "public attention must be easily directed, in each case of good or bad administration, to just the man deserving of praise or blame. There is no danger in power, if only it be not irresponsible. If it be divided, dealt out in share to many, it is obscured..."[49]Essentially, the items under the discretion of administration must be limited in scope, as to not block, nullify, obfuscate, or modify the implementation of governmental decree made by the executive branch.[citation needed]
"i thought starbucks was good place to work cuz i heard rumors, as for wallyworld? i've always hated everything"
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When we talk about Starbucks or other companies that run retail stores, in general it seems like they have never been a place to make much of a living except for a very few people.
Haven't many small or even large retail stores pretty much always been low end jobs.
Even back in the sixties seems like they were a place you worked to get beer, gas or date money and to use as a referance for you next real job.
Unfortuantly now days there aren't many real jobs for the masses.
Alway's remembered cleaning off windshiels and pumping a little gas and looking forward to heading out for party time after a few hard working hours after school and more hours on the weekends.
Doesn't take a lot of education or language skills to work in fast food, gas stations, liquor stores etc. and they usually get what they pay for.
Actually these days some actually get more than they pay for.
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100 billion a year right? that's what they wanted to invade Iraq (OK it was only 80 billion)
