Personal Qualities Abraham Baldwin 1754-1807 Georgia Born in Connecticut, religious fanatic, chaplain in Revolutionary army, wealthy, teacher at Yale, lawyer in Georgia, large slave owner, killed several, politician, representative and senator. Richard Bassett 1745-1815 Delaware Born in Maryland, revolutionary, captain in Revolution, Christian crazy, Methodist bishop, US judge, politician, senator. Gunning Bedford (Junor) 1747-1812 Delaware Born in Philadelphia, unbalanced, manic, wealthy, lawyer, US district judge. John Blair 1732-1800 Virgina Born in Virginia of a wealthy, prominent family, one of the older delegates, owned and used many slaves, had black mistress, a drinking buddy of George Washington, he made him one of the first Supreme Court justices, he did nothing. William Blount 1749-1800 North Carolina Born in North Carolina, greedy, crook, one of the founders of Tennessee, owned slaves, expelled from the Senate, involved in real estate swingles. David Brearl(e)y 1745-1790 New Jersey Born in New Jersey, well off, judge in New Jersey Supreme Court, bland and inconsequential. Jacob Broom 1752-1810 Delaware Born in Delaware, surveyor, industrialist, used indentured servants (slaves) to operate his cotton mill, big banker, quite wealthy. Pierce Butler 1744-1822 South Carolina Born in Ireland, illegal alien, officer in British Army, trader, married rich woman, wealthy planter, owned a great many slaves, instrumental in Constitution's fugitive slave language, senator. Daniel Carroll 1730-1796 Maryland One of the oldest and wisest delegates, born in Maryland, Catholic, married money, wrote the First Amendment to the Constitution. George Clymer 1739-1813 Pennsylvania Born in Philadelphia, signer of the Declaration of Independence, rich, prosperous businessman, made money as federal tax collector, treasurer of the Revolution, stole land from Indians and treated with them, involved in fine arts and agriculture. Jonathan Dayton 1760-1824 New Jersey Youngest delegate, born in New Jersey, captain in Revolution, Dayton, Ohio named for him, politician, crook, representative, senator, accused of treason in Arron Burr's (1756-1836) land swindle, empire plot. John Dickinson 1732-1805 Delaware Born in Maryland, Philadelphia lawyer, rabble-rouser (a kind of eighteenth century Abby Hoffman), author of the famous Farmers Letters, wrote the Articles of Confederation, revolutionary, general in Revolution. William Few 1748-1828 Georgia Born in Maryland, grew up in North Carolina, moved to Georgia and later New York City where he was inspector of prisons and became an important banker, a vagabond, slave owner and breeder, US circuit judge, grafter. Thomas FitzSimmons 1741-1811 Pennsylvania Born in Ireland, Catholic, illegal alien, wealthy, financier, important businessman and merchant, banker with Alexander Hamilton, Founder of Bank of North America and Insurance Company of North America, member of the House. Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790 Pennsylvania Born in Boston, oldest delegate, genius, womanizer, father of several *******s including a governor of New Jersey, rapist, sex with 15 year-old child, wealthy businessman and printer/publisher, inventor, spent 1/3 of his life in Europe. Nicholas Gilman 1755-1814 New Hampshire Born in New Hampshire, captain in the Revolution, wondered in very late for the convention when all the work was done, mentally questionable, politician, representative and senator. Nathaniel Gorhman 1758-1796 Mass- achusetts Born in Massachusetts, businessman, merchant, wealthy, President of the Continental Congress, land speculator and swindler, with partner bought six million acres in Western New York, over 9300 square miles, 17% of the state. Alexander Hamilton 1755?-1804 New York ******* born to a penniless slut on Nevis, West Indies, illegal alien, criminal, married money, daughter of General Philip Schuyler, captain in the Revolution, profiteer, pompous, involved in finance, killed by Aaron Burr (1757-1836) in an illegal duel. Jared Ingersoll 1749-1822 Pennsylvania Born in Pennsylvania, important lawyer, otherwise not much. William Jackson The secretary of the convention. Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer 1723-1790 Maryland Born in Maryland, an old and wealthy land owner and slave owner. William Samuel Johnson 1727-1819 Connecticut Born in Connecticut, British sympathizer, suspected of treason and complicity, lawyer, member of state supreme court, president of Columbia College, senator, crook. Rufus King 1755-1827 Mass- achusetts Born in what is now Maine, was then Massachusetts, pro British, minister to Britain, lawyer, politician, anti-slavery, preferred indentured servants, leader in forming Constitution, move to New York, senator, upper class snob. John Langdon 1741-1819 New Hampshire Born in New Hampshire, wealthy businessman and merchant, disinterested in ordinary citizens, general in revolution, governor of New Hampshire. William Livingston 1723-1790 New Jersey One of the oldest and least bad of the delegates, liberal pressed for freedom of speech and religion, born in New York, officer in Revolution, prisoner of war, commander of New Jersey militia, lawyer, publisher, editor, heavy drinker, womanizer, first governor of New Jersey. James Madison, Jr. 1751-1836 Virginia Born in Virginia of a wealthy and powerful family, widely believed to be homosexual, "Father of the Constutution," slave breeder, importer and owner of many slaves, scholarly, articulate, wealthy land owner and land speculator in Kentucky, representative, secretary of state, fourth president of the United states. James McHenry 1753-1816 Maryland Illegal alien, born in Ireland, anti-British, doctor, well educated, Revolutionary surgeon, private secretary to George Washington, prisoner of war. Thomas Mifflin 1744-1800 Pennsylvania Born in Philadelphia, Quaker turned warmonger, wealthy businessman, industrialist, merchant, banker, politician, colonel and general during Revolution, aide-de-camp to George Washington, wisely turned against Washington, Governor of Pennsylvania, refused to send militia to crush the Whiskey Rebellion. Gouverneur Morris 1752-1816 Pennsylvania Born in New York of wealthy, important family, major contributor to Connstitution, lawyer, pro-British turned revolutionary, author of Pennsylvania Packet, etc., raised money for Revolution, minister to France. Robert Morris 1734-1806 Pennsylvania Born in England, businessman, importer, merchant, primary financier of the Revolution, signed Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation, financial manipulator, fiddled with government finances to favor the wealthy and land owners, speculator, went bankrupt. William Paterson 1745-1806 New Jersey Born in Ireland, lawyer, wealthy, governor of New Jersey, Senator, appointed justice of the Supreme Court as a reward by George Washington, decided that federal law supercedes state law and that courts are final say on constitutionality of laws. Charles Pinckney 1757-1824 South Carolina Born in South Carolina, younger cousin of Charles Colesworth Pinckney, large slave trader, lawyer, lieutenant in Revolution, prisoner of war, important in forming the Constitution, governor of South Carolina, senator, became a liberal. Charles Cotesworth Pinckney 1746-1825 South Carolina Born in South Carolina of a prominent family, elder cousin of Charles Pinckney, educated in England, Oxford, lawyer, slave breeder and importer, Revolutionary officer, prisoner of war, prominent in drafting Constitution, strongly advocated separation of church and state, wanted senators to serve without pay. George Read 1733-1798 Delaware Born in Maryland, moved to Philadelphia and Delaware, lawyer, wealthy, at first opposed independence, signed Declaration of Independence, founded US Navy, favored land owners, United States judge, Chief Justice of Delaware, senator. John Rutledge 1739-1800 South Carolina Born in South Carolina, large slave owner and importer, disliked common man, opposed democracy and freedoms, governor of South Carolina, made justice of Supreme Court, quit, made Chief Justice. Rodger Sherman 1721-1793 Connecticut Born in Massachusetts, one of oldest and most moderate delegate, farmer, shoemaker, shopkeeper, surveyor, self-schooled, signed Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation, wrote almanacs, politician, judge, representative. Richard Dobbs Spaight 1758-1802 North Carolina Born in North Carolina, sent to Ireland at eight as an orphan, notorious, politician, Governor of North Carolina, representative. George Washington 1732-1799 Virginia Born in Virginia, surveyor, military officer, blundering general, brewer, drunk, married money, suspected of homosexuality, slave owner, pompous, great accomplishment: getting his picture on the $1 bill. Hugh Williamson 1735-1819 North Carolina Scientist, doctor, educated in Edinburgh and London, taught mathematics at what is now University of Pennsylvania, writer, published essay on comets. James Wilson 1742-1798 Pennsylvania Born in Scotland, illegal alien, lawyer, instrumental in planing the Revolution, strong supporter of democracy and the common man, wanted senators elected by direct vote (as it is now done), land speculator, jailed for debts, justice of the Supreme Court. You/Me None of the above!
If you wonder why there are so many problems with American politics, look at how many of these guys were lawyers.
How many of these sterling Founding Fathers have you ever heard of before? and you are supposed to follow them blindly? Which ones represent you or the way you live or think? Conservatives who want you to obey these Founding Fathers have very strange morality and don't know what they're talking about.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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SF, the point is that they were people, not God(s) or even Saints.
too many people do not know what they were really about and when so many begin to Cannonize them and tell the rest of US what they believed and what they thought and how perfect they were? It's time for a reality check.
We didn't even become a world power until 1945 when the Federal Govt had to take over the whole industrial complex, and the Financial system to fight a war.
We would have won said war without the nukes, but we would not have ended the war with out them for decades.
We would have ended up in a twenty year (hot) war with the Soviets to divide up Europe. We would have lost millions to capture Japan. It is quite possible that we would not have taken the Japanese Isalnds at all, but we could not have allowed the Soviets to take Europe completely, which they surely would have done.
Am i strying to say that it was twist a of fate that made US the "the greatest nation in this planets history"? well, yes. Thats exactly what it is. The only reason we have nukes is because Einstein was blackballed by his professor and had to take a job working for the Swiss Government instead of going into academia. He said so himself. He said he would not have come up with relativity unless he had been pushed out of academia. The actual nuke power program? 100% US Government programs. Nothing freemakret about it from beginning to today. If you study the US economic history carefully? You'll find one major national level financial swindle after another, and only about 10% actually lead to prosecutions.
You'll also find serious disagreements between the founders on how our economic system should be designed... much more and violent disagreeent than we have today.
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Seeking Freedom you called them loosers not me.
They certainly were corrupt and wierd but they did form a country. But they did not make it the greatest country on earth.
WW11 made this the greatest country on earth and a liberal president took a socialistic path to win a major world war. That is what made us great and that will make us great again. Not some backward conservative who has fought every major social change for the better,and that tells us that the profit motive is great in every aspect of our lives.
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Alexander Hamilton (January 11, 1757 – July 12, 1804) was the first United States Secretary of the Treasury, a Founding Father, economist, and political philosopher. The chief of staff to General George Washington during the American Revolution, he was a leader of nationalist forces calling for a new Constitution; he was one of America's first Constitutional lawyers, and wrote half of the Federalist Papers, a primary source for Constitutional interpretation. He was more influential than the other three members of Washington's Cabinet, and the financial expert; the Federalist Party formed in support of his policies.
Born and raised in the Caribbean, Hamilton attended King's College (now Columbia University) in New York. At the start of the American Revolutionary War, he organized an artillery company and was chosen as its captain. Hamilton became the senior[1] aide-de-camp and confidant to General George Washington, the American commander-in-chief. After the war, Hamilton was elected to the Continental Congress from New York, but he resigned to practice law and to found the Bank of New York. He served in the New York Legislature, and he was the only New Yorker who signed the U.S. Constitution. He wrote about half the Federalist Papers, which secured its ratification by New York; they are still the most important unofficial interpretation of the Constitution. In the new government under President Washington he became Secretary of the Treasury. An admirer of British political systems, Hamilton was a nationalist who emphasized strong central government and used the implied powers of the Constitution to fund the national debt, assume state debts, and create the government-owned Bank of the United States; he paid for it all with a tariff on imports and a highly controversial whiskey tax.
history does not have an "ephemeral glow" at all my friend, and beware of people people that paint pictures with such a glow... they are usually trying to get something from you that you do not wish to part with.
i picked him because Aaron Burr shot him dead in a duel. Burr was a political opponent and sitting Veep at the time...
these guys played very rough.. Hamilton had already lost a son in a duel
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"We began planning the Revolutionary War in order to issue our own money again" -Benjamin Franklin .
"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers." - Congressman Louis T. McFadden
“Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce…when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.” Meaning the IMF/ FED did us in this time. - James Garfield, 20th President Of U.S. Assassinated 1881
“Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its powers, but the truth is that the Federal Reserve System has usurped the government. It controls everything in congress and it controls all our foreign relations. It makes and breaks governments at will.” - Louis McFadden, Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power of money should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." Woulda shoulda coulda. - Thomas Jefferson
"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers." - Congressional Record 12595-12603 June 10, 1932
"The eyes of our citizens are not sufficiently open to the true cause of our distress. They ascribe them to everything but their true cause: the banking system... a system which if it could do good in any form is yet so certain of leading to abuse as to be utterly incompatible with the public safety and prosperity." - Thomas Jefferson
"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States." - United States Senator Barry Goldwater
“The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers a finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. That system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money. This (Federal Reserve) Act establishes the most gigantic trust on Earth. When the president signs this bill, the invisible governments by the monetary power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed, the worst legislatives crime of the ages perpetrated by this banking bill.” - Charles A. Lindbergh, Representative, MN
"The Federal Reserve is answerable to no one.” - Ronald Reagan
“The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People vs. The Banks.” - Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875
Thomas Jefferson had the answer to our crisis!!! Bailout Problem solved. Jefferson knew about money and banking:
"Paper is poverty,... it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788.
"Experience has proved to us that a dollar of silver disappears for every dollar of paper emitted." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1791. "The trifling economy of paper, as a cheaper medium, or its convenience for transmission, weighs nothing in opposition to the advantages of the precious metals... it is liable to be abused, has been, is, and forever will be abused, in every country in which it is permitted." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813.
"Scenes are now to take place as will open the eyes of credulity and of insanity itself, to the dangers of a paper medium abandoned to the discretion of avarice and of swindlers." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814
"It is a cruel thought, that, when we feel ourselves standing on the firmest ground in every respect, the cursed arts of our secret enemies, combining with other causes, should effect, by depreciating our money, what the open arms of a powerful enemy could not." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, 1779
"We should try whether the prodigal might not be restrained from taking on credit the gewgaw held out to him in one hand, by seeing the keys of a prison in the other." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Pleasants, 1786.
"That we are overdone with banking institutions which have banished the precious metals and substituted a more fluctuating and unsafe medium, that these have withdrawn capital from useful improvements and employments to nourish idleness, that the wars of the world have swollen our commerce beyond the wholesome limits of exchanging our own productions for our own wants, and that, for the emolument of a small proportion of our society who prefer these demoralizing pursuits to labors useful to the whole, the peace of the whole is endangered and all our present difficulties produced, are evils more easily to be deplored than remedied." --Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Salimankis, 1810.
"The banks... have the regulation of the safety-valves of our fortunes, and... condense and explode them at their will." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819.
"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816.
"The incorporation of a bank and the powers assumed [by legislation doing so] have not, in my opinion, been delegated to the United States by the Constitution. They are not among the powers specially enumerated." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791.
"It has always been denied by the republican party in this country, that the Constitution had given the power of incorporation to Congress. On the establishment of the Bank of the United States, this was the great ground on which that establishment was combated; and the party prevailing supported it only on the argument of its being an incident to the power given them for raising money." --Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Maese, 1809
"[The] Bank of the United States... is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution... An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in time of war! It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or withdraw its aids. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?" --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803.
"If the debt which the banking companies owe be a blessing to anybody, it is to themselves alone, who are realizing a solid interest of eight or ten per cent on it. As to the public, these companies have banished all our gold and silver medium, which, before their institution, we had without interest, which never could have perished in our hands, and would have been our salvation now in the hour of war; instead of which they have given us two hundred million of froth and bubble, on which we are to pay them heavy interest, until it shall vanish into air... We are warranted, then, in affirming that this parody on the principle of 'a public debt being a public blessing,' and its mutation into the blessing of private instead of public debts, is as ridiculous as the original principle itself. In both cases, the truth is, that capital may be produced by industry, and accumulated by economy; but jugglers only will propose to create it by legerdemain tricks with paper." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813.
Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection, and the base of a moral existence. Ayn Rand
The end of democracy and defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations. The Bank of the United States is one of the most deadly hostilities existing against the principles and form of our Constitution. The system of banking is a blot [defect] left in [unsolved by, and unfortunately tolerated by] all our Constitutions [state and federal], which if not covered [eventually solved and revoked] will end in their destruction. I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity is but swindling futurity [on the greatest possible scale]. Thomas Jefferson
If the American people ever allow banks to issue their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation [by having to maintain a vital circulation by perpetually re-borrowing principal and interest as subsequent sums of debt, increased perpetually so much as periodic interest], the banks and [bank owned] corporations which will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. SIR JOSIAH STAMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND
"Banking was conceived in iniquity, and born in sin. Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from them, and all great fortunes like mine will disappear. And, they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But if you want to continue to be the slaves of the bankers, and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money, and control credit." ABRAHAM LINCOLN
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace, and conspire against it in times of adversity. The banking powers are more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. They denounce as public enemies, all who question their methods or throw light upon their crimes.
I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe. [As a further undesirable consequence of the war...] Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow. The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." LINCOLN
"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity." best of my recollection the discourse between Mr. Otto and myself regarding inflation, deflation, and purported price inflation LINCOLN
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“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison
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What is your point? The only thing I set out to show is the founding fathers were people with a self interest goal in mind.Also a lot of weakness.
I did not wish to make this a matter of gun control which I am not in favor of because I own a lot of guns for sport mostly nice ones to, not counting 8 pistols just for fun. See I have selfish interest to. Just like our founding fathers you know your gods.
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No, you set out to show that you can copy and paste from communist bl o gs with little regard for reality. Your aim was to discredit the foundations of this nation. You do this to allow yourself the moral elbow room to call for the destruction of the constitution. Don't post that BS then wander back in with a sappy eyed look and claim innocence. Also if you take the time to read all the quotes I posted you will see I was responding more to Glass than you.
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-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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As enticing as the apparent simplicity of the system may be we could never return to the gold standard relentless. It would shatter us to slow down to the transaction speed necessary to trade in metals. It would also do nothing but redistribute the power of the Federal Reserve out to the banking industry as a whole and you have seen how trustworthy they can be.
I agree a less complex system provides fewer ways to be manipulated but going backwards is not the answer.
Soon paper will be done away with as well and digits will be all that will remain. The removal of the penny will be the first sign. The question is how to safeguard the currency without infringing on individual liberty.
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I disagree, BF. I am sure that we could execute transactions in much the same way as we currently do. I don't envision a world where we all carry bags of gold around. I do however see that basing our currency on something more than the current level of dilution would be wise beyond any other notion. We could still carry notes or cards that would fully represent that gold we hold in our banks. truthfully it is the only solution that would help end our economic problems. That is precisely the reason it will never again be adopted.
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we could revert to the gold standard, i'm all for it. i'm all for getting rid of the Fed completely.
i'm all for a constitutional ammendemnt restricting the (total) Fed deficit to 20% of the GDP the way they cacklack GDP today... go over 20%? an automatic tax kicks in that taxes real wealth, not just income inclding taxes on corporat assets and earning...
see how long it takes for the Congress to stop overspending with that in place..
it'll never get passed tho.. they LIKE this system.
i'm all for getting rid of the concept of Self Regulated Markets too (SRO's).
i'm all for returning to Import duties instead of income tax...
but the problem is that there's only a couple hundred of US that think like that in the country DQR...
i mean it, for years i've been told that we can't have import taxes cuz it'll restrict free trade.
i've actually had people try to tell me that import duties caused the depression...
they could not be more wrong. market manipulation and excess margin (lending/borrowing) caused the depression.
just like it did this last time too..
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Thing is, if you get rid of the fed then income tax goes away. The only thing our income tax goes to is paying the fed. That alone is a major boost to the economy...
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I don't claim to be a great economist but I don't see how it could work without either stagnating the economy or constantly deflating the value of a dollar as the economy grows. Not to mention the ripoffs that would occur during the transition period where the average joe no longer has a feel for what his dollar is worth. I also worry it could engender even more classism and economic disparity into our society than we already have.
I like the idea of your constitutional amendment glass. In fact I would like the Profit and Loss streams from all the different government agencies separated completely and reported individually. Our government pulls from column A to cover the shortfall in column B so often that no one including our law makers know how much money is really in the system anymore and how much is just unfunded numbers.
That's another thing I would like. No more unfunded or partially funded projects. If it passes in a bill and gets signed by the President then it should be mandated to be fully funded. If it turns out to be a mistake tweek later in a new bill but no more "No Child Left Behind"'s that only ever see 50% of the money they were lined out to receive and then get forgotten or sidelined after the politicians are done scoring political points by supporting or criticizing the project. Gotta stop playing shell games with our tax money and start real long term planning.
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I don't see at all how basing our currency on something substantial would deflate the value of that currency... It would seem the current system is more prone to that as can be evidenced by buying a gallon of milk for $5...
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The reason for devaluation seems obvious to me but perhaps I am misunderstanding the concept. I will read over the gold standard and get back to you relentless.
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it would stagnate the economy BF, that's why they went for this system.
would a "stagnant economy" really be so bad? in a "stagnat economy" what you earn today maintains it's value. the system we have now is clearly designed to keep 90% of people working harder to just keep up... you cannot "save" and expect to retire, you must invest rather heavily and hope your investments aren't in Madoff cook books.
that's why it cracks me up when "conservatives" go on about how the "liberals" have "enslaved" the poor with these policies because it encourages them not to work.
it does the exact opposite. the money that is pumped into the system (given to the poor) goes directly into the pockets of the wealthy as soon as it is given out- if it didn't? the poor wouldn't be poor any more
the fact is the wealthy created this system because they want it just the way it is. all these giveaways contribute to inflation by increasing the debt, and by making more money available to poor people to spend, inflation of even the basics is higher... infaltion forces peopl to go to "experts" to make sure they can keep up with it.
more than half the so-called wealth of this nation is in the hands of 1%, and they aren't "consumers" by any measure of the word. So, when i speak of "the wealthy" i am talking about them and not the upper middle class.
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quote:SF, the point is that they were people, not God(s) or even Saints.
And that's where their appeal lies, Glass.
They were normal people with normal flaws that did something great when their back was to the wall.
Conservatives don't want perfect, Glass, and we sure as hell don't expect our leaders to be Saints. What we do want is for them to be honest with us. Both about their shortcomings and their intentions.
quote:We didn't even become a world power until 1945 when the Federal Govt had to take over the whole industrial complex, and the Financial system to fight a war.
Reread my post, I never said they created a Superpower. I said that they created 'the greatest nation in this planets history...'
And I stand by that statement.
Long before either World War people from all corners of the Earth were flooding to these shores...
Why?
Because here, more than any other place, one had a chance.
No guarantees. No 'sure things'.
A chance.
That's all they wanted and that's what they found here more than anywhere else. And that is what is special about this country that our Founding Fathers created.
quote:Am i strying to say that it was twist a of fate that made US the "the greatest nation in this planets history"? well, yes.
I have to disagree. (shocking, I know)
We could go into a lengthy discussion about the factors that lead to the forming of this nation (and we might yet), but here is my take in a nutshell.
Good (yet imperfect) men stood up for freedom when the government got too big, too intrusive, too controlling and they said no more.
That is what the 'conservatives' look on with fondness. That instead of being bought off, cowered by fear or stagnated by apathy; normal men with normal personality flaws stood up and did what needed to be done.
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That is what the 'conservatives' look on with fondness. That instead of being bought off, cowered by fear or stagnated by apathy; normal men with normal personality flaws stood up and did what needed to be done
that is the biggest load of crap,...
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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Good (yet imperfect) men stood up for freedom when the government got too big, too intrusive, too controlling and they said no more.
SF, i have to tell you that you are just full of it. you pose an ephemeral view of the Founders.
to claim that the British Crown had become too big, too intrusive, too controlling is major mischaracterization of what happened.
it was all about economics and poor management.
George III seriously misunderstood what kind of war he was fighting. If George had not been at war with France AND Spain at the same time? We would not have been born when we were.
That is what the 'conservatives' look on with fondness. That instead of being bought off, cowered by fear or stagnated by apathy; normal men with normal personality flaws stood up and did what needed to be done.
funny, Mao did that too, so did Stalin.
i wonder how many "Teabaggers" today beleive the teaparty was about paying taxes....
the slogan was actually
"No taxation without representation".
the Stamp Act which was the first big brewhaha over taxes in the colonies - it was supposed to pay for the Seven Years War (French and Indian War to some). It was repealed, but prior to that time? no taxes had ever been levied directly on Colonists.
the King's view was that he was paying to protect the Colonists from the French and the Indians and they should bear some of the costs..
does that seem overbearing to you?
the Colonists were simply insisting that they be extended the VERY SAME rights that British Subjects enjoyed, the British Constitution guaranteed that British subjects could not be taxed without their consent, consent which came in the form of representation in Parliament.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: That is what the 'conservatives' look on with fondness. That instead of being bought off, cowered by fear or stagnated by apathy; normal men with normal personality flaws stood up and did what needed to be done
that is the biggest load of crap,...
Pray tell, Jordan...
What then do 'conservatives' believe?
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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in money, how much they own, personal liberty to screw anyone who doesnt believe as they do, infringing controlling laws(government) to keep in line the less fortunate, screw the planet, f the environment, keep vices illegal for their self-interest cronies...you want more?
-------------------- jordan Posts: 5812 | From: st paul,mn | Registered: Feb 2004
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We could go into a lengthy discussion about the factors that lead to the forming of this nation (and we might yet), but here is my take in a nutshell.
Good (yet imperfect) men stood up for freedom when the government got too big, too intrusive, too controlling and they said no more.
That is what the 'conservatives' look on with fondness. That instead of being bought off, cowered by fear or stagnated by apathy; normal men with normal personality flaws stood up and did what needed to be done.
LOL. i was living a couple miles from where Blackwater set up shop (when they formed) when Clinton was elected. I heard alot of the same talk esp. from the retired military folk. I was actually pretty much in agreement with them.
well the "Conservatives" got their power back and look what it got US?
it's nice to dream, but i live in the real world and i'm sick of being pandered to. I am tired of hearing about how "greatness" and "Freedom" are just around the next corner... the conservative movement might as well be called the corporate movement as far as i am concerned.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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Well.. now the democrats have poweer again.. and just how have they changed things? Blackwater still in business and the dreaded patriot act just renewed.. So what's the point of arguing partisan politics when it is clear to anyone that the parties are the same?
Posts: 2965 | Registered: Aug 2005
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No they have there differences the most of the time they are very simular because they serve the same masters.
-------------------- Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. Posts: 3827 | From: beautiful California | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by jordanreed: in money, how much they own, personal liberty to screw anyone who doesnt believe as they do, infringing controlling laws(government) to keep in line the less fortunate, screw the planet, f the environment, keep vices illegal for their self-interest cronies...you want more?
Yes, please. And if you manage this time with any degree of serious dialogue I'd be much obliged.
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:the Stamp Act which was the first big brewhaha over taxes in the colonies - it was supposed to pay for the Seven Years War (French and Indian War to some). It was repealed, but prior to that time? no taxes had ever been levied directly on Colonists.
the King's view was that he was paying to protect the Colonists from the French and the Indians and they should bear some of the costs..
does that seem overbearing to you?
That's hardly the only factor that lead up to the revolution, Glass.
The Proclamation of 1763, Navigation Acts, Writs of assistance, Quartering Acts, the Sugar and Molasses Act, the Sugar Act, the Intolerable Acts...
How many more would you like me to list?
Posts: 1802 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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what's your point? the Navigation Acts were repealed long before the Revolution began... they began in the 1600's and were ended in 1849.
so toss that one. the Writs of assistance were also primarily a function of enforcing the navigation act. They were basically blank warrants that allowed th eholder to do what he/she did int eh Name of the King... the Patriot Act was written by "conservatives" and does pretty much the same thing.
the intolerable acts actually include the molasses and sugar and the quartering act... so it is redundant. the quartering act was a response to the failure of the Stamp act.
Molasses act had little to no real effect. smugglers nullified it.
the Brits were unable to collect much of it.
no taxation without representation is the point here, not no taxation.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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oh, and BTW? sugar and molasses taxes were in effect alcohol taxes since it was on the imported sugar and molasses, which was almost exclusively used to produce Rum.
the failure of the effectivenss of the molasses tax had more impact on the Colonists ABILITY to afford to fight the Revolution than it did to piss them off. It alos made them realise how little ability the King had to send enough power to this side of the pond.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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