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glassman
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Go enjoy and drive the car, show off etc. I think most of us would take that car. We already do this with credit cards since they were invented.

speak for yourself...

i bought this house in '05 and not only do i still have good equity? my mortgage is less than 25% of my after tax income.. actually, it's just under 20%

i have 4 or 5 credit cards and i haven't paid more than 300$ interest (total) in the last five years..

i'm not just "talking about it"; i really am a conservative.

"globalisation" in one form or another was inevitable, but the way it has been done is totally irresponsible.

Chinese imports should have had duty on them to offset the dollar/yuan from the very beginning...

the US has given it's money to the Chinese Govt and we are all expected to compete on our own with a Sovereign wealth fund...

it's stupid as hell.

consumers being rounded up:
 -

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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bond006
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don't blame the Freetrade at all. The only problem with Freetrade is that it seemed to be a oneway street. From them to us only. Had it been more two way it would of made us stronger. I do blame the banks, brokerages etc. with their greed though Mike Bloomberg doesn't:

MIKE SLAMS 'NOW' SOCIETY
Comments: 3Read Comments Leave a Comment By DAVID SEIFMAN
Posted: 3:55 am
September 17, 2008

An "I want it now" society that refuses to live within its means is partly responsible for the subprime-mortgage crisis, Mayor Bloomberg said yesterday.

"I think you just can't blame the banks," he said, taking borrowers to task.

"They say, 'I want the great American dream. I want it now and I'm not going to wait until I put some money in the bank.' . . That's where we lost the moral compass of saying no to people who did not have the earning capacity to support a mortgage."

Long before the collapse of Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch, Bloomberg had been warning that "nothing keeps going up forever."

The one thing I do agree with him is the Nothing keeps going up forever. This is the one lesson everyone forgets in good times such as the stock market, real estate market etc. We keep repeating history and never put safeguards or we put safeguards that aren't strong enough to stop messes like this and we only put them in as a reaction. That is the problem with this country with any issue. It's always REACTIVE.

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I blame free trade or what ever name you put a lable on the policy that the planed market used.

Of course ractions to markets that are making money and you know as well as I that markets that are manufactured to make money and are making money will never change even though they are hurting society until the damage level gets so high they are forced to change the people that made the money are long gone and it is the bag holders that that make the changes that seem to be the tax payersany more.


So I say call there damn bluff put the money aside use as congress sees fit and keep bush and the lap dogs away from the funds.

Its only a few more months and Bush will be gone an we can solve this problem with out a fear monger standing around.

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a surfer
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quote:
Originally posted by NaturalResources:
Pretty sad. The real pricetag of this "bailout", IMO, will be much more than 700 billion. The goverment is just saying that to "coushin the blow" to the already broken American Taxpayer. I'm thinking it will cost more like 5 to 6 trillion, if you look at it in purely monetary terms.

The TRUE costs, however, will be much, much higher.

I agree with your thinking NR.

The next bail out will be to the banks for the trillions in credit card debt.

They are hoping to avoid this by pumping the money in now but I fear its not going to fill the void thats there.

This quick fix mentality is necessary but questionable IMO.

Time is the key. Yet as Americans our want it all want it now attitude shines yet again.

Sort of what got us into this mess in the first place.

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Lockman
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BAILOUTS=SOCIALISM

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Let's Go METS!!!

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bond006
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Sounds like a spending frenzy to me 700 billion dollars to be spent on bad securites and bad debt thats what the tax payers will own terrible and un American.

We should own the banks to

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
BAILOUTS=SOCIALISM

brought to you by Fearless Leader himself...

(and his buddies)

 -

i don't know if Kerry would have been any different [Roll Eyes] ...

but i think the guys getting these bailouts are making alotof friggin money off 'em...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
you know what makes me angry?

there was a simple way to fix all of this last year without anybody feeling this much pain...

i outlined it here, and it involved making anybody who was in mortgage trouble a 7,10, or even 15 year balloon note at a reasonable (5-6.5%) rate.

it would have removed the profit from people who bought too much house and allowed a 5-10 year breathing space for the economy to recover enough so that people could have possibly sold their house in a couple of years without a loss...

it would have had to been from congress tho, and Congress didn't do a dam thing...

well it sounds like the FDIC is finally getting their minds around the idea of balloon notes...

instead of 5-15 years tho? they are going to have to go to 40 year notes.. [Big Grin]


how "left" is that PM? [More Crap]

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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2fatherof
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freetrade is not fair trade, the chinese surplus is over $259 billion and only growing..,
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2fatherof
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free trade is not necessarily fair trade, The chinese surplus is over $259 billion and only growing..,
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Propertymanager
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quote:
how "left" is that PM?
It's just plain socialism, which is just plain bad!
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glassman
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quote:
Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:
how "left" is that PM?
It's just plain socialism, which is just plain bad!
refinancing people with balloon notes so they can't make a profit off a bad mortgage?

sheesh, you see socialism everywhere.

that shoulda been started last year. balloon notes were the only fair way to everybody to fix this mess, but it's too late now..

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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BooDog
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
quote:
Originally posted by Propertymanager:
quote:
how "left" is that PM?
It's just plain socialism, which is just plain bad!
refinancing people with balloon notes so they can't make a profit off a bad mortgage?

sheesh, you see socialism everywhere.

that shoulda been started last year. balloon notes were the only fair way to everybody to fix this mess, but it's too late now..

That balloon bs is part of what put us here. "Lets make a deal" specialties, and all the credit default bull chit that followed. Just pull their teeth till they don't have any left. yi yi yi! Now no one is buying a dam thing. people are burring their money in their back yards and watching as their neighbors house goes up for auction at prices that will only make their own house worth less. Gotta be getting close to bottom imo if even i'm starting to post on the off topic threads! lol but i'm clueless anyway since this is my first real experience with a real recession. But, who can pass up on taking advantage of some of these low low prices!

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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BooDog
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Here are a couple credit card links. I've been tracking a little on how fast some of these companies are raising their rates. Customers are starting to receive credit rate increase notices in the mail. Read the fine print.

Credit card company rates;
http://moneycentral.msn.com/banking/services/creditcard.asp

Low balance transfer APR %
http://moneycentral.msn.com/banking/servic...hId=4&Go=Go

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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glassman
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That balloon bs is part of what put us here. "

not true. first off?
balloon notes are not exotic loans

ballon notes WERE the normal type of mortgage in the US prior to Fannie and Freddie and the creation of the 30 yr note

in a balloon? you pay interest until the expiration date and either refi or sell.

had the banks immediately begun issuing balloons? they would have avoided all these foreclosures on the market. people would not be on the street. housing prices would have remained more stable.

nobody would have made one penny on overspeculation. the refi's would have been for the complete (foolish) amount of the original laon.. people would have had 7-20 years to sell their home without a loss..

that way? the CDSes that have crashed the market would have been satisfied instead of being cashed in, because the refinancing money would have gone to cover them. AIG would not be govt owned right now.

the big three would not be needing a bailout because financing would not have disappeared...

this is moot now tho... it's too late.

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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glassman
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what i find really odd about the overall attitude in this "crisis" is the fake idealism.

there's nothing "conservative" or "liberal" about watching people starve.

that's what's coming without "bailouts"... do i want them? no,
do i like them? no
do i need one? hell NO!
but real people do need them, it's not an option.

all i kept hearing for the last decade was how "fundamentally-strong" our economy was while we watched all our real jobs producing actual things for people to buy and use leave the country.

i raise hell about it? and people call me names

we don't even make clothes anymore.heck MS is just about done even growing cotton. i kept buying Made in USA clothes until the last year and a half when even Wrangler started importing clothes from wherever they can find cheap labor. i could still buy Wranglers made in the USA unitl last year, now they say Hecho En Mexico [Frown]

we can't make cars for profit, even the "pride of the country" Wall St's financial services sector has been shown to be wearing the emperors new clothes.

all of these failures come down to one thing. participating in "the game" for only one single thing: profit.

there's nothing wrong with profit, that's not what i'm saying. what i'm getting at is that nobody has any pride in their work anymore, and haven't for thirty years. I went to self employment twenty years ago because every job i had and wherever i worked? nobody worked because they gave a crap about what they were doing, it was all just jockeying for the better "position", and people who did do their job with pride were not getting rewarded. the people who played the system got rewarded.
well, this the reward. a job well done is reward in and of itself. i look around this country and it's damn hard to find anybody who can claim a job well done anymore...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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IWISHIHAD
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Quote Glassman:

"there's nothing wrong with profit, that's not what i'm saying. what i'm getting at is that nobody has any pride in their work anymore, and haven't for thirty years. I went to self employment twenty years ago because every job i had and wherever i worked? nobody worked because they gave a crap about what they were doing, it was all just jockeying for the better "position", and people who did do their job with pride were not getting rewarded. the people who played the system got rewarded.
well, this the reward. a job well done is reward in and of itself. i look around this country and it's damn hard to find anybody who can claim a job well done anymore"...

_________________________________________________

Well put!


-

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BooDog
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in a balloon? you pay interest until the expiration date and either refi or sell.
The failure of people to qualify because they overextended beyond their means when it comes time to refi and because of the as you say "exotic" loans abused by the sellers in not only the mortgage industry but also in the auto and even retail industry with these balloon type loans that people had only a gamble of a chance to repay, is imo what put us where we are. You can only charge so much. The bill is now over due. It is the individuals responsibility for "making the deal" but upon default the debt is just rolled into another debt at another rate and never repayed. Add in all the default swaps, wow craziest thing i've ever heard of.

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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glassman
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balloon notes and ARMS are two completely different things.. the people that bought using ARMS are the problem, balloons tend to be used by sophisticated investors that expect to flip...

no flippers should be bailed out.

people with ARMS were always told, it'll never re-adjust to the highest possible rate, but they did. they did because the price of OIL went thru the roof and started an infaltionary trend. the FED responded to inflation by raising interest rates. a typical response.. balloons hae a flat rate with one big payment at the end. in ten-fifteen years? that owner will have had plenty of time to make plans on how to deal with it. the house may have even apreciated by then [Big Grin]

it sure looks to me like this was all planned out. i'm sure it's just a really bad set of coincidences tho.. it always is... [Wink]

almost all of these bad mortgages were issued from '04, 05, and '06....

had they taken theses failures and spread them out over a fifteen year period? the system could have absorbed it.

the alternative is what we have now, two steps from a depression, and judging by everybodies attitude? it's coming.

i'm thinking of getting back into raising chickens and rabbits. i might even get my wife a greenhouse for Xmas since we may be seeing less food at the grocery stores if they begin having credit problems too...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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BooDog
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i'm thinking of getting back into raising chickens and rabbits. i might even get my wife a greenhouse for Xmas since we may be seeing less food at the grocery stores if they begin having credit problems too...
Not a bad idea at all. I'm in city limits but I have enough land to grow what I can. This was actually the first season my green peppers came in lol! Good timing.

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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a surfer
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Hey Glass is'nt that kinda like gettin her a vacuum cleaner.....

Here you go honey......I can see her giving him a little glare.

LOL

How hard is it to raise chickens? Are they loud?

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glassman
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you might be right, but that's what she wants...

it's mostly just to keep the bugs out without spraying.... and we can grow year-round with it here, otherwise we can't start tomatoes and peppers til March...

chickens can be hard work. i used to raise gamecocks, but then i had 20 some acres and no neighbors..


i'm currently living too close to other people for gamecocks...

if you want to raise chickens in town?

hens are fairly quiet, roosters are loud- silkies don't crow..

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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Machiavelli
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quote:
Originally posted by Lockman:
BAILOUTS=SOCIALISM

How so? Was the Chrysler bailout of the 80's socialism? Worked for them didn't it? [Roll Eyes] IMO you , PM and others use the term "Socialism" rather loosely... any help is construed as "socialism" by you guys... seriously you and the others have no idea what Socialism is in the true sense... the same BS was spewed in FDR's day and guess what? Due to his policies and such we came out of the Great Depression stronger then ever and we shall do it again...

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Let the world change you... And you can change the world.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna

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wallymac
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Time is the key. Yet as Americans our want it all want it now attitude shines yet again.

Sort of what got us into this mess in the first place.


The problem I see with the whole idea that the average American is to blame for getting over extended is that the banks and financial institutions had the final say in extending the credit.

I worked for many years in the retail automotive industry doing finance. Every lender have criteria for making a loan. One huge part was debt to income ratio. If your finances were out of whack, you either had to payoff some debt or you didn't get the loan no matter how great your credit rating was.

The problem was that things were going so well that banks/leading institutions wanted their part of the pie and loosened their lending criteria. No one forced them to do this, it was all about profit and greed. Which is OK until the chit hits the fan.

Many in this country just don't have the necessary education, especially when it comes to finances. They believe the bankers/lenders when they are told they can do it. What those individuals not understand is the unforeseen circumstances, like gas more than doubling in a short span, which also increased the price of food and just about everything else. I'm not trying to say they are blameless but it's not much different than getting your news from one source, be it Fox or MSNBC and taking it as gospel. Nah but that never happens.

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BooDog
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The problem was that things were going so well that banks/leading institutions wanted their part of the pie and loosened their lending criteria. No one forced them to do this, it was all about profit and greed. Which is OK until the chit hits the fan.

Iím sure you guys have been over this over and over and your wisdom is buried in a few of the threads here and there. Anyway, I agree Wally. A few years ago my wife and I went to a jeep dealer and after the test drive we sat down and talked financing. The dealer had to come down big time right from the start and not exceed our monthly payment allowance. The only deal he could come up with was trying to get our monthly payment up by about $50 and putting the bulk of the loan at the tail end Ė I call this the balloon payment so if Iím wrong please correct me. The dealerís spiel to explain how easy it would be to re-finance the balloon was intense. We already knew he was full of it and we of course had the discipline not to fall for this trap and that is just one of the reasons we maintain one of the highest credit ratings one can have. Imo people fall into these traps, take on way too much and then wonder why they canít get out of the hole their in. I feel Iím beating a dead horse now since weíre about at the point where we start seeing signs of improvement even as we enter the over reaction mode of commerce passing on all the write downs to the consumers through layoffs and other means. Weíre starting to see home sales pick up a little, sad that a house (in foreclosure) just 2-3 years ago bought at 450k sold for just 150k (10k over asking price). The strong survive, the credit market is tight but imo people that have the ability to manage their money arenít having that much of a problem. The media would have us believe differently imo. Sad part is, and here we go with the discipline issue again, this Christmas looks to have the best prices in many years as stores try to shed inventory. Once again people will drive up their credit cards and then later have even more issues. Companies arenít lowering rates imo, the mail boxes are over filling with credit card offers. Itís gotta start at home with a little discipline.

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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BooDog
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http://tech.yahoo.com/bl0gs/hughes/35180
spend spend spend! j/k

change the 0 to o in bl0gs

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All post are my opinion. Do your own DD. Who's clicking your buy/sell button!?

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glassman
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. The only deal he could come up with was trying to get our monthly payment up by about $50 and putting the bulk of the loan at the tail end Ė I call this the balloon payment so if Iím wrong please correct me.

that would be a balloon. but the real point is that the jeep wasn't in your budget to begin with.

you didn't buy it (good), but the idea of getting a balloon note on property that depreciates rather than apreciates is rather novel IMO...


suppose it had been a house, and you were one year from retiring from the military with a good job lined up? you know you are going to increase your salary by 2x? it would not seem like a bad idea in normal times...

i agree we have hit the bottom. the question now is how badly the banks lied about their mark to market assets. that is IMO, why they are not lending very much yet. they lied about how much assets they had and now they have to buld up their assets before they can begin lending as much as they need to again...

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Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise.

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BooDog
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quote:
Originally posted by glassman:
. The only deal he could come up with was trying to get our monthly payment up by about $50 and putting the bulk of the loan at the tail end Ė I call this the balloon payment so if Iím wrong please correct me.

that would be a balloon. but the real point is that the jeep wasn't in your budget to begin with.

you didn't buy it (good), but the idea of getting a balloon note on property that depreciates rather than apreciates is rather novel IMO...


suppose it had been a house, and you were one year from retiring from the military with a good job lined up? you know you are going to increase your salary by 2x? it would not seem like a bad idea in normal times...

i agree we have hit the bottom. the question now is how badly the banks lied about their mark to market assets. that is IMO, why they are not lending very much yet. they lied about how much assets they had and now they have to buld up their assets before they can begin lending as much as they need to again...

"the question now is how badly the banks lied about their mark to market assets."

Yes that is the big question. No one trusts anyone.

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