posted
i wasn't proposing that they don't get real prison sentences FIRST.
So, it's 30 years in prison, THEN tropical island get away. That's much better and just.
secondly? i beleive that you have a very odd notion of what will happen if you throw say 5000 men together on an island with no resources. very odd things happen when sociopaths begin having to deal with just each other.
My very odd notion?
Canabalism.
Social and literal.
sociopaths are basically only happy when they have people of conscience to prey on.
No. By definition sociopaths have most of the same needs and wants as the rest of us. They just don't care who gets hurt in order to get those needs\wants met. They aren't going to simply decide to work together beyond what's absolutely needed to get their needs met.
they tend to minimally reform themselves, with of course, the meanest in charge. they still have no conscience, but they conform to their new societal norm because the risk-reward scenario becomes unthinkable.
They revert to the basic animal. That much we can agree on. And in an animal scenario the beasts will feed on eachother till only one rules and that is only until another beast kills him. So much for the human rights elements.
IMO, there are a few people that can be reformed if we bothered to try. short-eyed perves? mostly not.
You find a sure-fire way to distinquish the 'saveables' from the 'don't bothers' and we'll get started seperating them right away.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by bond006: There is an added plus to an Isand where they live by themselves. Obsevation in a more normal setting just think of what we can learn.
I bet in 50 or 100 years we might be able to cure the criminal mind
Normal setting? They still only interact with fellow scum of the earth in either one of two settings.
1) Fully paid for vaction scenario: We provide everything they need and they simply exist to consume what we give them while living in a tropical paradise.
2) Survival scenario: We simply dump them on this island and watch who kills who to make use of the limited resources on the island.
I don't see either one helping us understand the criminal mind any better, Bond.
As for a 'cure'...I don't believe it's a desease in the typical sense of the word. It's simply a choice by individuals to put their wants ahead of societies needs.
You can't cure that.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
It's simply a choice by individuals to put their wants ahead of societies needs.
so, you are saying that you are basically no different from sociopaths except you aren't as "greedy" as they are?
that's hilariuos...
are you for socialism or are you for capitalism?
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: You know, Mach, I really can't tell sometimes if you're actually as dense as you come accross or if you're just playing devil's advocate.
I'm about as dense as you so you decide then what our density is.
quote:Your statements like this are based on the assumption that we KNOWINGLY put an innocent man or woman in jail. While I won't argue with you that there is corruption in the system that needs to be addressed, most of the time it comes down to human error.
Actually I did not say KNOWINGLY so stop putting words in my mouth. Innocent people since the death penalty was imposed in this country officially have been executed KNOWINGLY or UNKNOWINGLY due to human error. And that is precisely why the death penalty should not exist, because of HUMAN ERROR. You have been throwing it in our face about what do we say to rape victims or a murdered victims families. And you know what your are right and wrong in that regards. There is nothing that can be said to them whether the death penalty is imposed or not. Putting someone to death will not bring back that murdered loved one and you are making someone's mother feel the same way you are. And perhaps not at that moment but down the line you may feel regret you let the state take another one's life in the name of your loved one and by then it's too late. But here's one for you, what do you tell the family of a innocent man/woman who has been executed? OOPS SORRY? WAS HUMAN ERROR? WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN? Again that is why it should be abolished because of that human error that does happen and much less should not be expanded to include other crimes that are not murder.
quote:Until you can provide a way to read minds that will make sure that there is never a case of 'wrong place, wrong time,' mistakes will be made in our system. And to refuse to punish the guilty for FEAR of making a mistake is to paralyze those who are trying to protect the innocent from the predators.
Read my above quote because I can see you don't think that far. Anyways DNA is the key though there could be corruption in that because of over zealous prosecutors or cops. IMO DNA should be mandatory in any capital case if there is DNA at the crime scene.
quote:And then what? Let then do unto each other as they will? That's sure humane of you.
Wouldn't you say that is a living hell and not as easy as death? Some of these convicts would prefer the death penalty then 30 years to life in prison with other animals. Anyways we already do this, I merely suggesting we get the non violent ones out of those areas like thieves, drug addicts, drunk drivers on manslaughter convictions etc.
quote:And after 30 years what? They simply come out and want to do right by the society that locked them in hell for three decades? Surely even you don't believe that, Mach.
Depending on their age when they are convicted and incarcerated, most will be OLD men or women and not much of a threat then though their are exceptions. I saw a program years ago on 60 minutes or some similar show about the convicts who are elderly in the prisons doing 30 years or more and trust me most of them were physically incapable of committing violent crimes anymore.
quote:So, you're not in favor of the three strikes you're out...but you are in favor of TWO strikes you're out.
Makes sense to me.
Really.
I never said i wasn't in favor of the 3 strikes your out... if I was PLEASE QUOTE ME... What I am in favor of is 2 or 3 strikes with all being VIOLENT FELONY CRIMES... key word Mr. Readitall: VIOLENT. Not pizza thieves, drug addicts, pickpockets etc.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Socialism isn't charity. It's FORCED wealth redistribution. There is no virtue in actions that are not voluntary.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: I'd expect that one from Mach, Glass. But from you it's a little surprising.
Contrary to belief your not the end all be all and not everyone agrees with you on everything you say. Glass imo does not let his religion or emotions cloud his judgement or beliefs. He and a few others on this board know how to reason much more then you will ever be able to do.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: Socialism isn't charity. It's FORCED wealth redistribution. There is no virtue in actions that are not voluntary.
It's not Socialism nor forced. You VOLUNTARINGLY pay your taxes. You don't have to if you don't want to. Plus most but not all people on here saying they give to charity or people of wealth saying that is laughable and is mostly done because of feelings of guilt or for public relations then because they believe in whatever cause it may be.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
actually that's a very weak definition of a sociopath.
most people in jail are sociopaths... there's a few in jail for things like negligence that are not...
all con men are sociopaths and many charities are run by, you guessed it , con men...
as for your charity figures? i think the definitions there are so loose it's a meaningless article. for instance? 90% of Americans consider themselves religious anyway...
as for my question? you didn't answer it. it was not rhetorical.
you do, or do not see yourself as different from sociopaths? there is a distinct difference between people who don't commit crimes because they might get caught, and those people that don't commit crimes becuase they have empathy.
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Upside: I certainly can't say that I disagree with you, my post was based on my feelings as I've never known an adult or a child in that situation. It just seems to me that an adult, while still horrible, could somehow find a way to come to terms with it as opposed to a kid.
At least you admit your posting are based on emotions unlike others like SF who won't admit it.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Innocent people since the death penalty was imposed in this country officially have been executed KNOWINGLY or UNKNOWINGLY due to human error.
Ok, so we've been executing people that we KNOW are innocent...wow. Must have missed that story. I was under the apparently naive misconception that we have a MANDATORY appeal process for capital punishment cases. You would think that at least one of those judges\juries would have a qualm about executing a KNOWN innocent person.
There is nothing that can be said to them whether the death penalty is imposed or not. Putting someone to death will not bring back that murdered loved one
Oh, but there is. You can say "He will never hurt anyone else again."
There is alot of value in that sentance to the victim\their family.
But here's one for you, what do you tell the family of a innocent man/woman who has been executed? OOPS SORRY? WAS HUMAN ERROR?
With far less sarcasm? Yes. If multiple juries looked at the evidence and came the same conclusion, what were they supposed to do? Ignore what they see and hear and let the man go?
IMO DNA should be mandatory in any capital case if there is DNA at the crime scene.
At least we can agree on one point in all of this.
Wouldn't you say that is a living hell and not as easy as death?
It's not about easy. It's not about what's worse for them. It's about protecting those of our society who need protection from these monsters.
I never said i wasn't in favor of the 3 strikes your out... if I was PLEASE QUOTE ME... What I am in favor of is 2 or 3 strikes with all being VIOLENT FELONY CRIMES... key word Mr. Readitall: VIOLENT. Not pizza thieves, drug addicts, pickpockets etc.
Fair enough. So let me ask you this:
Someone is convicted of one violent felony, say rape. What do we do?
Ok, now they get a second violent felony conviction, maybe, oh, rape again. Now what?
Well, they still aren't dead and they are convicted of yet a third violent felony, say, what are the odds...rape AGAIN.
What do we do?
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
as for your charity figures? i think the definitions there are so loose it's a meaningless article. for instance? 90% of Americans consider themselves religious anyway...
If you don't like that article I'll find some more for you when I get home. I stand by the premise though. When one believes it's a God given duty, one is more willing to give to their fellow man.
as for my question? you didn't answer it. it was not rhetorical.
you do, or do not see yourself as different from sociopaths? there is a distinct difference between people who don't commit crimes because they might get caught, and those people that don't commit crimes becuase they have empathy.
Of course I see myself as being different from sociopaths, Glass. As one who actually practices what I believe I don't act against my neighbor based on 'what I can get away with.' I see each fellow man as a being of intrinsic value. As such, my actions toward them are based on the fact that they are seen as brothers, not strangers or competition or in the case at hand, prey.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Of course I see myself as being different from sociopaths, Glass. As one who actually practices what I believe I don't act against my neighbor based on 'what I can get away with.' I see each fellow man as a being of intrinsic value. As such, my actions toward them are based on the fact that they are seen as brothers, not strangers or competition or in the case at hand, prey.
sociopaths do not see any intrinsic value in other people. they lack the capability. it is generally considered impossible to train them to do this after they have matured (15-18 yrs)...
competition is the reason i brought up socialism and capitalism, because we do in fact compete with each other but we agree on rules. socialists have much stricter even repressive rules.
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
sociopaths do not see any intrinsic value in other people. they lack the capability. it is generally considered impossible to train them to do this after they have matured (15-18 yrs)...
I agree. That's not where the arguement is.
competition is the reason i brought up socialism and capitalism, because we do in fact compete with each other but we agree on rules. socialists have much stricter even repressive rules.
The socialists, by definition, take the value away from the individual and assign it to the State. You have NO VALUE apart from what you can do for the State. Competition is discouraged unless it benefits the State.
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SeekingFreedom: No. Society is the people. The State (capital 'S') is the institution.
I support helping people, not helping the Institution repressing the people.
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
The State is not the People.
Government exists SOLELY to serve the people. When it no longer does so it behooves good men to rise up and change it.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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yes it is. everybody in the govt was elected from the People or were appointed/hired by those elected
Government exists SOLELY to serve the people. When it no longer does so it behooves good men to rise up and change it.
agreed. how long do you figure the state has not been "of the people"?
take the Iraq war: the people wanted to invade Iraq. of course they were lied to, but they did want to...
as another oddity? i would point out that the Chinese call their govt People's Republic of China even tho we all know it isn't of the people or a true Republic (like we are)...
just who does the US govt represent these days anyway? corporations?
-------------------- "Man is the only kinda varmint that sets his own trap, baits it, and steps in it." Posts: 26310 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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The state is the people in america if enough people get off there butts and scream for change it does.
Viet Nam for instance when the war changed to 80% of america saying no and there was a draft that was making people very pissed. the military was starting to get men that refused to go on missions.
The government pulled out very unglorius to may I add
Posts: 5810 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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And THIS is why need to expand capital punishment. This guy will NEVER see the light of day as a free man. Even better, you and I will pay for his 'care' for the rest of his natural existance.
How is that justice?
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Because he will probably get the sh*t kicked out of him for the rest of his life and/or raped and yes i know they probably will isolate him but not forever.
As for why it is justice? Would you like to die a old man in such a place and never be able to roam freely in this world again? not be able to take a flight to a vacation spot? To be in a cell with a cell mate and one toilet practically 24 hours a day in a cell that barely registers as above the size of a carboard box? To only be allowed out of your cell for a certain amount of time per day or week? etc. etc.
You, my friend, only care about your wallet and not justice. There are certain things worst then death and he's about to find out. Death is too easy.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
There are certain things worst then death and he's about to find out. Death is too easy.
And yet Death is considered the 'cruel and unusual' punishment? Glad that makes sense to you, Mach.
Posts: 573 | From: Utah | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I never said it was cruel and unusual... just that it's wrong to take a humans' life in the name of another human being and call it justice...
what is cruel and unusual is the method not the act... if i had agreed with the death penalty, which i don't, but if i did and i'll humor you... i would choose injection over any other methods... i find that the LEAST cruel and unusual method of putting someone to death...
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I'm not advocating cruelty. I am advocating punishment. Death is the easy way out for the condemned and your wallet. Again you only care about your wallet about this matter.
-------------------- Money Never Sleeps Pal.
Greed, for the lack of a better word is GOOD. Posts: 3261 | Registered: Mar 2004
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