You need to go back and read both threads (since you decided to start yet another one) so you don't state that some of these issues were never addressed.
I would not be criticizing other people's posts. I know my posts are not perfect, nor my grammar or my spelling, for that matter. No, Mach, you are not going to teach this old dog new tricks. I think some people get the jist of what i am saying, as i also think they get the jist of what you are saying. If not, they can let us know.
Now back to the subject. If you really believe all the things you are saying, then look at it this way, all the illegals that enter this country have nothing to worry about. But I think there is a reason there is so much concern about immigration in the US. And, it is not because the US citizens are uncaring.
At this point we are going to have to agree to disagree.
You have finally stated your position... that the US should somehow be taking care of the poor throughout the world in order to solve the immigration problem in the US. I'm sorry, but the US cannot afford to be the world's keeper at the expense of the US citizens. By your standard, immigration will never be solved until the US economy is destroyed. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to speak for anyone else...but I simply can't agree with your "solution". _____________________________________________
For clarification I am including my last post on the other thread so you know exactly where I stand.
Quote: IWish
"I have re-read many of your statements regarding illegal immigration into the US. I am still not sure what your solution is to solving the problems that exist in the countries where these illegals are coming from.
It seems to me that you are suggesting that the US should allow this growing problem to continue and the people of the US are supposed to somehow pay the tab.
I think we both know that these illegals cannot or in some cases will not pay their fair share of the bills necessary to stay. Someone has to pay for their care. (medical, etc.) I also know that we have our own citizens who have paid into the system that need these same medical services etc. We also have many homeless people that need a lot more assistance. Many of these homeless have also paid their dues twice (paying taxes and serving their country.)
Our country can support a certain amount of illegal immigrants. With all our other burdens mounting and so many working people taking the hit we cannot continue down this trail. I have never seen such widespread interest in this issue and I believe it is because it is getting totally out of hand.
"If" they really decide to enforce the law and stiffen the penality we will see a big change in the number of people entering this country illegally. Just like there are company "Books" and there are company "Books". There is "Enforcement" and there is "Enforcement." Enforcement of laws designed to stop illegal immigration in the past years reminds me of Sec enforcement of the pennies. In other words - not much.
What i do not understand is why you justify illegal immigration due to the problems of starvation, lack of education, etc in foreign countries. Your solution to fixing the problems in other countries is to send those people to the US and let the US pay and then pay some more, then somehow this will force us to solve all these starvation and education problems in foreign countries.
I have seen these illegals come to this country and work over the years. Yet from what i have seen they do not go back to their native countries after accumulating wealth and quality education in order to improve their native country. I know there must be some who do. But why don't a lot more go back to help?"
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: Enforcing the law will not change the "fix" were in. So get that out of your head.
that's just not true...
there's people that have said the ghettoes will never be fixed too.. but plenty have been...
telling people to get ideas out of their head sounds sort of fascist or condescending depending on how you look at it...
like John Wayne talking to a "little lady"...
Anyways we are in "Globalization". So what is best for everyone in the world will in the end be best for the U.S.
LOL.. yep like the Chinese foods full of industrial chemicals, pesticides and illegal antibiotics...
remember "greed is good" no matter who it hurts
I'm not calling anyone a "little lady" per say... but I'm being a realist... and the reality is that fines/jail time/deportation/job raids etc. will simply not work.. it will be a temporary cure and thats it.. the problem will continue.. do you honestly seriously believe that these "solutions" will eradicate employers from taking a short cut? or eradicate illegal immigration LoL .. on the contrary... illegal immigrants will come in more then before because this Bill will get killed and in 10 years the #'s of population will double... solution? no... makes the problem worst? yes... at least be a realist.. one goes to jail another one pops up.. just like in organized crime... and thats why i made a reference to the drug trade... take one out and another one will replace that one.. illegally hiring immigrants is not a violent crime and will not ever get stiff jail time and even if it did like I said there will always be another one to take a shot at it who thinks he is smarter then the law.. that is the reality... that people seem to ignore... Greed will always prevail... especially in this country... just like stiff jail time in the Enron/World Com and other cases will not stop Corporate corruption/crimes... that is just the reality... btw no ghettoes have been fixed.. when there is no ghettos (poverty in other words) then it has been fixed.. till then it's not fixed... here in NY they say the drug problem is fixed in certain neighborhoods but it's not.. few months later you read about drug raids in apartment complexes in those same neighborhoods that they said was fixed months earlier... that my friend is Reality...
As for contaminated foods and such from China.. they export that and we export bombs.. both result in death and both are from greed... next...
[ July 02, 2007, 02:42: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Machiavelli,
You need to go back and read both threads (since you decided to start yet another one) so you don't state that some of these issues were never addressed.
I would not be criticizing other people's posts. I know my posts are not perfect, nor my grammar or my spelling, for that matter. No, Mach, you are not going to teach this old dog new tricks. I think some people get the jist of what i am saying, as i also think they get the jist of what you are saying. If not, they can let us know.
Now back to the subject. If you really believe all the things you are saying, then look at it this way, all the illegals that enter this country have nothing to worry about. But I think there is a reason there is so much concern about immigration in the US. And, it is not because the US citizens are uncaring.
At this point we are going to have to agree to disagree.
You have finally stated your position... that the US should somehow be taking care of the poor throughout the world in order to solve the immigration problem in the US. I'm sorry, but the US cannot afford to be the world's keeper at the expense of the US citizens. By your standard, immigration will never be solved until the US economy is destroyed. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to speak for anyone else...but I simply can't agree with your "solution". _____________________________________________
For clarification I am including my last post on the other thread so you know exactly where I stand.
Quote: IWish
"I have re-read many of your statements regarding illegal immigration into the US. I am still not sure what your solution is to solving the problems that exist in the countries where these illegals are coming from.
It seems to me that you are suggesting that the US should allow this growing problem to continue and the people of the US are supposed to somehow pay the tab.
I think we both know that these illegals cannot or in some cases will not pay their fair share of the bills necessary to stay. Someone has to pay for their care. (medical, etc.) I also know that we have our own citizens who have paid into the system that need these same medical services etc. We also have many homeless people that need a lot more assistance. Many of these homeless have also paid their dues twice (paying taxes and serving their country.)
Our country can support a certain amount of illegal immigrants. With all our other burdens mounting and so many working people taking the hit we cannot continue down this trail. I have never seen such widespread interest in this issue and I believe it is because it is getting totally out of hand.
"If" they really decide to enforce the law and stiffen the penality we will see a big change in the number of people entering this country illegally. Just like there are company "Books" and there are company "Books". There is "Enforcement" and there is "Enforcement." Enforcement of laws designed to stop illegal immigration in the past years reminds me of Sec enforcement of the pennies. In other words - not much.
What i do not understand is why you justify illegal immigration due to the problems of starvation, lack of education, etc in foreign countries. Your solution to fixing the problems in other countries is to send those people to the US and let the US pay and then pay some more, then somehow this will force us to solve all these starvation and education problems in foreign countries.
I have seen these illegals come to this country and work over the years. Yet from what i have seen they do not go back to their native countries after accumulating wealth and quality education in order to improve their native country. I know there must be some who do. But why don't a lot more go back to help?"
I never once criticized your spelling or grammar. On the contrary that is one thing you do correctly unlike others like Bond004, Bdgee etc. What I do criticize is how you quote someone else's posts especially mine. Look at your posts seriously. I can't tell which posts you are quoting and which ones are your replies to them. If you look at mine and Glassman and other's posts when we quote someone it shows up in bold and says who wrote it. Then below it is our reply in regular non bold text. You don't do that so it's a hassle to go through your post to make sure what you are saying and not get it mixed up with a post of mine you quoted.
Anyways you must simply ignore world events and just stay boxed in the U.S. WAKE UP!!! We have been the world's Keeper or pretend to be since the days of Teddy Roosevelt at the expense of the citizens here. Hello.. Iraq? Vietnam? Not to mention we meddle in almost every countries affairs at one point or another yet we can't meddle in the corruption south of the border so the wealth is spread more and there is less poverty, more jobs, etc.. therefor benefitting the U.S. with less and less illegal immigration. Is that such a difficult concept for you to understand. Latin American countries and their gov'ts will not do it. The rich/elite/powerhouses in those countries see it as a solution to the unwanted by them. The migration to our country by their poor illegally. So what motivation do they have to solve their poverty problems down there so there is no need for their poor to illegally immigrate here? NONE, ZIP, NADA. That is how much motivation they have. It's business as usual between the U.S. and Latin America. And illegal immigration will continue. Problem solved? NO, Problem continues here? YES. What affect did enforcement of current laws have on illegal immigration here? NOTHING. That is what will happen in the future. Mark my words.
Oh btw illegals here are not by any definition of the word or phrase wealthy or accumulating wealth much less quality education. Their children perhaps with the education but thats about it. So your proposal that these "wealthy" should go back and resolve the povery problems there is sorry to say but stupid. I said they make $30,000 and you have on more then one post said they don't even make that, yet you are calling them wealthy now lol
Anyways unless you can resolve your posting "issues" so I can make sense of your posts much easier and not have to read it line by line analyzing it to make sure I get what is your posts or mine or new posts or old posts, it's best you not reply. Learn how to quote in bold like everyone else (sort of like how you want the illegals or any citizen who doesn't speak english to learn english only).
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Yes enforcing the law would work to some degree.
But I am of the school that says if you have a law you must enforce it. Or you make a standard that says all law is really not enforceable.
One of the biggest reasons that this is going to be a hard law to enforce is that the upper class are the main people in violation of the law and they have political power.
So far the most part this class of of people has been the benifactors of illegal aliens and the illegals themselves have been the victims along with the American work force. Two groups with very little political power .
If unions were alive and working this for the most part would not have happened. Only 9% of our workforce is represented by unions anymore.
How many illegals would you see in a union shop that would be hired in a lower wage scale and not be a union member?
Or why enforce any law just debate them justify bank robbery,murder and anything eles that hurts people or society.
The illegal Alien problem hurts our country makes mock of our laws.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"Learn how to quote in bold like everyone else"
Normal and standard usage for the English language is not limited to media wherein it is possible to alter a font with the stroke of a key. (Hand written documents, for just one example, don't succumb to such a privilege.) What is "like everyone else" is using quotation marks, assuming they are using proper and accepted standards of grammar.
Sorry, I accept that putting quotes in bold face is the way glass... represents quotation, but it is far from standard or even acceptable grammatical practice. It is NOT "like everyone else" does as you are insisting.
And since when did Allstocks appoint a "grammar cop"?
(If they did, why did they pick one that is clearly confused about how to depict quotations?)
In the English language, American standaard, quotation is signified with quotation marks, not bold face type. Should you wish to argue that, I direct you to
where you may take the rest of your life searching for some usage ruling declaring that it is acceptable practice in written English to depict quotation via bold type.
Oh, and by the way, what does "btw" spell?
I think it would be a nice gesture on your part to eliminate the far too frequent insulting attacks on other's post via resort to claimed "misuse" of spelling and grammar, particularly in light of the fact that if one chose to do so, one could spend as much time pointing out and correcting your grammatical mischief and typos and misspelling as you will in a determined effort to find a declaration in any standard usage of the language that quotation is properly announced via bold face type.
You have indeed criticized IWISHIHAD's spelling or grammar!
I personally do not find any objection to the form or methods or spelling of IWISHIHAD's post. He is, generally quite careful to make what he post readable and understandable.
On some topics IWISHIHAD and I strongly disagree, but I don't think we have resorted to either damning the other's typing or English or demanding the other adhere to some specialized grammatical tricks in order that we might accept their post and recognize their stated position.
How about loosening up that "know it all" attitude and respecting others instead of the insults.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"How many illegals would you see in a union shop that would be hired in a lower wage scale and not be a union member?"
I have many years experience with unions and I am certain that if a purple eyed green guy from Uranus with an extra leg coming out of his gut could show a union card, the union would fight for his right to work.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Well that is a good thing if all illegals were paid union scale that would be ok by me.
At least they would not be worked like they are and be fairly treated .
I say give them all amnesty as long as they become part of a union work force and the current employers would have to keep them on there jobs at union scale.
That would teach the wise asses a lesson.
Posts: 6008 | From: phoenix az | Registered: Mar 2005
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I didn't mean to deride the unions, I have tremendous respect and admiration for their "unity" and resolve to protect and promote rights for workers.
Without that, this nation would never have had public education and, thereby, couldn't have provided the military and manufacturing potential to survive WWI and WWII.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
First thing Mach, do not put yourself in the category of the people on this board that write well. Just because you use bold print does not put you at the same level as the people that write very well on this board.
In your case, you have used the method of picking posts apart to try and get those who post pissed off. They have come back and hit your hot button with their explanatiions, and you do not like it. Good luck on that with me.
The reason i double posted quotes is that your answer to my questions did not make much sense. I have not had to do that before with other posters. You have a tendancy not to answer the question that was asked.
Since then i have come to realize the reason your posts were not making much sense is that you are very naive on the subject of immigration. Your writing is mostly you trying to BS your way through the topic. This makes it appear that you have little knowledge of the subject of immigration and the surrounding issues.
I was assuming you had a lot more knowledge on things surrounding this topic, my bad.
I usually do not feel that i need to explain words like average, costs, hypothethical, paying taxes, etc. Or explaining about how much it costs to be in the hospital, or that 12 million is not an exact number of illegals, or topics that are on allstocks that you say we never discuss. I assumed you had some knowledge on these things, especially for a person that was taking the lead on this topic.
As far as your last post to me, you are again trying to stray from your point on this issue, and again for good reason. You know that the screws are starting to be tightened on the issue of illegal immigration in the US, and you do not like it. You also know when the US decides to enforce the laws and stiffen them, that it will stop a large percentage of illegal immigration.
As far as the $30,000 figure that "you" used, (i would assume some would accumulate much more in a lifetime of working), ...in many poverty stricken countries this number would be considered wealthy. If $30,000 is not considered somewhat wealthy in poverty stricken areas of Latin America then maybe that explains why the US feels countries like Africa, Haiti, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, etc. need our money and help more. I know you are personally concerned about Latin America, but there are other countries needing aid.
It appears by your statement that other places in the world need our aid more than Latin America. And, maybe they appreciate it more. Judging by what you have stated to me through out these two threads what we give will never be enough and certainly doesn't seem to be appreciated by you.
If i were you, i would not become a salesman. Because I don't think we are buying your bs. You are trying to convince us that somehow we, as a nation, are obligated to cure the world's ills. I'm not buying this. The people that need and get aid are fortunate you are not their salesman.
Again, it is not the 50's, 60's or 70's, this is 2007 and the times they are a changing.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
another one of the points i've been trying to stress for several years is finally beginning to get some press:
Mexican Migration Robs Towns of Youth, Future
Listen to this story... by Lourdes Garcia-Navarro
Morning Edition, June 26, 2007 · The exodus of Mexicans across U.S. borders is depleting whole villages of the young and the able, leaving small, broken communities behind. A recent study shows more than half the municipalities in 10 Mexican states are seeing falling populations. One of them is Guanajuato, which has one of the highest rates of migration in Mexico.
In Guanajuato, the village of El Gusano — or "the worm" — gets its name from the hills that undulate around it. It is a small, poor, farming community. But El Gusano is visibly changing. Disappearing are the traditional mud brick homes. Now, concrete multi-room abodes are the norm.
For many migrants, making money in the United States is only a mean to this end, to owning property and land. But faced with desolate economic prospects locally — and lured by promises of money in the North — many who grow up in El Gusano move to the United States for work.
And increasingly, husbands try to take their wives and children across into the United States, emptying whole villages like El Gusano. Those who can't come along are left to fend for themselves, and await money sent back home.
posted
Carolyn Lochhead, Chronicle Washington Bureau
Sunday, May 21, 2006
(05-21) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The current migration of Mexicans and Central Americans to the United States is one of the largest diasporas in modern history, experts say.
Roughly 10 percent of Mexico's population of about 107 million is now living in the United States, estimates show. About 15 percent of Mexico's labor force is working in the United States. One in every 7 Mexican workers migrates to the United States.
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: "Learn how to quote in bold like everyone else"
Normal and standard usage for the English language is not limited to media wherein it is possible to alter a font with the stroke of a key. (Hand written documents, for just one example, don't succumb to such a privilege.) What is "like everyone else" is using quotation marks, assuming they are using proper and accepted standards of grammar.
Sorry, I accept that putting quotes in bold face is the way glass... represents quotation, but it is far from standard or even acceptable grammatical practice. It is NOT "like everyone else" does as you are insisting.
And since when did Allstocks appoint a "grammar cop"?
(If they did, why did they pick one that is clearly confused about how to depict quotations?)
In the English language, American standaard, quotation is signified with quotation marks, not bold face type. Should you wish to argue that, I direct you to
where you may take the rest of your life searching for some usage ruling declaring that it is acceptable practice in written English to depict quotation via bold type.
Oh, and by the way, what does "btw" spell?
I think it would be a nice gesture on your part to eliminate the far too frequent insulting attacks on other's post via resort to claimed "misuse" of spelling and grammar, particularly in light of the fact that if one chose to do so, one could spend as much time pointing out and correcting your grammatical mischief and typos and misspelling as you will in a determined effort to find a declaration in any standard usage of the language that quotation is properly announced via bold face type.
You have indeed criticized IWISHIHAD's spelling or grammar!
I personally do not find any objection to the form or methods or spelling of IWISHIHAD's post. He is, generally quite careful to make what he post readable and understandable.
On some topics IWISHIHAD and I strongly disagree, but I don't think we have resorted to either damning the other's typing or English or demanding the other adhere to some specialized grammatical tricks in order that we might accept their post and recognize their stated position.
How about loosening up that "know it all" attitude and respecting others instead of the insults.
Before you spew your BS opinions on what I mean or don't mean try to read what I had said. Not once did I say IWish spelled or mispelled a word. Not once did I say he didn't use a comma or a period in the wrong place or at all. So therefor I did not criticize his spelling nor his grammar. What I did criticize is his use of double quotes or not separating quotes from his new posts so I can tell what is what much easier like I do to him with my bold quotes so he doesn't have to figure out which quote I meant or anything else. So unless you know what I was saying then stfu.
Plus that is funny that you say that I consider myself a Know It All.Funny statement coming from someone like you of all people. Another funny thing is your statement of respecting others. Again funny statement coming from someone like you lol I respect anyone's opinions but that does not mean that I have to agree with them nor be convinced of their opinions because I am not. Especially with IWish's opinion on this matter.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: First thing Mach, do not put yourself in the category of the people on this board that write well. Just because you use bold print does not put you at the same level as the people that write very well on this board.
Hmmm did I say that my use of BOLD constitutes writing well or that you not using it constitutes not writing well? Nope. Never said that so stop putting words in my mouth. I said that I would appreciate that you use BOLD quotes out of common courtesy so that I can make sense of your posts like I do with mine for you and others. Ever hear the expression of I don't know where her breasts begins and her stomach ends? That is how I feel when I read your posts. I do not need you to quote yourself a 2nd time when I read it the first time. You only need to quote me and preferably in bold then reply below it like I do with you.
quote:In your case, you have used the method of picking posts apart to try and get those who post pissed off. They have come back and hit your hot button with their explanatiions, and you do not like it. Good luck on that with me.
Oh... didn't know I was not allowed to quote certain passages in a person's post and reply to them. Does that bother you?
quote:The reason i double posted quotes is that your answer to my questions did not make much sense. I have not had to do that before with other posters. You have a tendancy not to answer the question that was asked.
On the contrary they make perfect sense. I answer all your questions but if you cannot read well then that is not my problem because others understand what I am saying even if they do not agree with me.
quote:Since then i have come to realize the reason your posts were not making much sense is that you are very naive on the subject of immigration. Your writing is mostly you trying to BS your way through the topic. This makes it appear that you have little knowledge of the subject of immigration and the surrounding issues.
Naive? lol I would say I am more informed about it since it affects me in a personal way that I do not care to explain to you about my private life since it is none of your business. I do not let the biased media of this country influence me. I used to think that the media in this country was unbiased till this issue showed me their true colors. Anyways I know alot more about the issue of immigration and such then you ever will. You never consider both the pro's and con's. You just consider the con's because of your underlying bias and that was evident when you started blaming every single problem in this country on the immigrants. Heatlhcare, drunk driving, housing, rapes, murders,low wages, homelessness etc.. There has almost not been a issue in this country that you have not blamed on immigrants. I would respect you more if you admitted at the very least that you are biased then saying you are not.
quote:I was assuming you had a lot more knowledge on things surrounding this topic, my bad.
Alot more then you without letting outside things influence me.
quote:I usually do not feel that i need to explain words like average, costs, hypothethical, paying taxes, etc. Or explaining about how much it costs to be in the hospital, or that 12 million is not an exact number of illegals, or topics that are on allstocks that you say we never discuss. I assumed you had some knowledge on these things, especially for a person that was taking the lead on this topic.
I know all those words and have used them properly. As for the 12 million, I never once said it was a exact number. I did say it was a ESTIMATED number.
quote:As far as your last post to me, you are again trying to stray from your point on this issue, and again for good reason. You know that the screws are starting to be tightened on the issue of illegal immigration in the US, and you do not like it. You also know when the US decides to enforce the laws and stiffen them, that it will stop a large percentage of illegal immigration.
Care to make a bet it won't stop a large percentage? LoL It will just increase it in the long run. Plus I never once strayed from the issue at hand contrary to what you want to believe.
quote:As far as the $30,000 figure that "you" used, (i would assume some would accumulate much more in a lifetime of working), ...in many poverty stricken countries this number would be considered wealthy.
Actually it is considered middle class, at least in Costa Rica it is. But what do I know since according to you I am not knowledgeable about Latin America unlike you who is and consider $30,000 to be "wealthy" in those countries. My bad.. you are a scholar on the economies in Latin America. Btw $30,000 is a yearly amount not a lifetime amount so I don't know why you brought up the lifetime line. We all know that in a lifetime that a person will make more then $30,000.
quote:If $30,000 is not considered somewhat wealthy in poverty stricken areas of Latin America then maybe that explains why the US feels countries like Africa, Haiti, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, etc. need our money and help more. I know you are personally concerned about Latin America, but there are other countries needing aid.
You really are treading in territory that you know nothing about. I have friends throughout Asia (korea,thailand,phillipines,malaysia etc.) and my boss at work is Haitian (he immigrated here legally if that makes you happy) and he "enlightened" me about the U.S. policy in Haiti. The policy and financial aid to that country he summed it up in one word: NONE. The U.S. pretty much abandoned that country he told me. He described Haiti at it's present state in one word also: DEAD. He said Haiti is dead. And he should know more then you or me.
quote:It appears by your statement that other places in the world need our aid more than Latin America. And, maybe they appreciate it more. Judging by what you have stated to me through out these two threads what we give will never be enough and certainly doesn't seem to be appreciated by you.
You are under the illusion that people appreciate our financial or other aid in this world. We are hated in this world. Accept that already. We have no friends in this world. If a country says they are our "friend" it is not true friendship. That "friendship" is about money, plain and simple. You need to get that through your head. My friends in Russia, Italy and other countries have no convinced me of that. That if there is no financial gain in another country for the U.S. then we do not get involved in that country. There is a situation in Italy right now that you perhaps are not aware of but I won't state it at the present time because it would be for another topic. But if you like let me know and perhaps I'll make another thread about that or make a small post about it here to illustrate my point that if money is not involved we don't get involved.
quote:If i were you, i would not become a salesman. Because I don't think we are buying your bs. You are trying to convince us that somehow we, as a nation, are obligated to cure the world's ills. I'm not buying this. The people that need and get aid are fortunate you are not their salesman.
LOL... kind of ironic. Because my occupation is a salesman & I do quite well with it. BTW (now I like annoying Bdgee since he brought up that) you do not speak for "us". Everyone speaks for themselves.
Anyways us as a nation being obligated to cure the world's Ill's? Are you blind to world events or U.S. history since the days of Teddy Roosevelt (you seem to ignore this statement from me 2 or 3 times now). We get involved in the world's ills because this country has a narcisstic big ego to be the world's police. If we give aid to a country it is usually with a hidden agenda that usually means monetary gain for his country in the long run. I already gave a good example (or two if you consider the italian example) in the form of Haiti. We were somewhat responsible for the upheavel that happened in that country with the CIA's behind the scenes intervention (on our behalf of course)in that country throughout the years that eventually led to it's destruction. The aftermath of that country's problems due to us? Illegal immigration of course from "boat" people from Haiti. And what do we do with them? We send them back and ignore the problems of that country.
quote:Again, it is not the 50's, 60's or 70's, this is 2007 and the times they are a changing.
Gee, funny quote. Came from the 60's. Every decade changes so not sure what you are trying to say. anyways my offer of a bet that illegal immigration will get worst due to the Bill being killed stands. Put your money where your mouth is in other words.. or could be a friendly wager. Whoever wins will have to keep his mouth shut about this issue in the future.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: another one of the points i've been trying to stress for several years is finally beginning to get some press:
Mexican Migration Robs Towns of Youth, Future
Listen to this story... by Lourdes Garcia-Navarro
Morning Edition, June 26, 2007 · The exodus of Mexicans across U.S. borders is depleting whole villages of the young and the able, leaving small, broken communities behind. A recent study shows more than half the municipalities in 10 Mexican states are seeing falling populations. One of them is Guanajuato, which has one of the highest rates of migration in Mexico.
In Guanajuato, the village of El Gusano — or "the worm" — gets its name from the hills that undulate around it. It is a small, poor, farming community. But El Gusano is visibly changing. Disappearing are the traditional mud brick homes. Now, concrete multi-room abodes are the norm.
For many migrants, making money in the United States is only a mean to this end, to owning property and land. But faced with desolate economic prospects locally — and lured by promises of money in the North — many who grow up in El Gusano move to the United States for work.
And increasingly, husbands try to take their wives and children across into the United States, emptying whole villages like El Gusano. Those who can't come along are left to fend for themselves, and await money sent back home.
So the youth should stay in a desolate community with no opportunities just in the name of that community not becoming a ghost town? Young adults in the U.S. leave small towns behind all the time here because of no opportunity so what is the difference if the same phenomenon happens in some other country?. Small towns here survive regardless and some don't but that is evolution in a way. So it is the same in another country.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
it simply illustrates why being against illegal immigration isn't all about racism and xenophobia...
the fact is that people with enough motivation to "pick up everything they have and move" are the very ones that would pick up their own countries given the chance... the system becomes self perpetuating... now there'll be even less opportunity and more will be trying to come...
the very people that should be training and hiring those young 15-16 year olds are gone...
a 16 year old illegal immigrant is a potential victim or gang member here..
it also illustrates that these are not starving people that are coming here.. they do have the ability to feed themselves in those villages...
as a matter of fact? i'd be willing to bet they eat better and have much healthier diets...
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: it simply illustrates why being against illegal immigration isn't all about racism and xenophobia...
the fact is that people with enough motivation to "pick up everything they have and move" are the very ones that would pick up their own countries given the chance... the system becomes self perpetuating... now there'll be even less opportunity and more will be trying to come...
the very people that should be training and hiring those young 15-16 year olds are gone...
a 16 year old illegal immigrant is a potential victim or gang member here..
it also illustrates that these are not starving people that are coming here.. they do have the ability to feed themselves in those villages...
as a matter of fact? i'd be willing to bet they eat better and have much healthier diets...
When I say they are not able to feed their families I do not mean Ethiopia starvation. Some if not all do feed themselves everyday but they have to beg for money in the street to do so like I seen in Nicaragua.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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What i meant by "picking posts apart", is how everyone should structure their posts to please you. "Common courtesy"? Sounds like a double standard to me.
As you are well aware, you avoid answering questions asked by taking things out of context to suit your agenda.
Maybe you can BS other people enough so they believe what you are saying about the immigration problems and related issues. But i really doubt it.
You should consider confining your comments to Latin America. I personally know that some of your other comments are really way off base.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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He's certainly got a better feel for the innuendo of the the NY City area's society and cultural than me and possibly the others here, but that seems to be his outside limit of real knowledge, then he fills in with palaver intended to overwhelm. ("A little education is a dangerous thing.")
That has been tried here before and the BSers eventually had to accept the fact that the knowledge level of the regular posters here is too far above average for them to be fooled and certainly their knowledge and experience is too high for them to be intimidated by a line of excessive and misused verbage (might want to check out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=verbage 0n that) and character attacks.
An open mind does not preach infallibility of DNC propaganda, even accidentally or sincerely.
That extreme way far far left mindset, particularly when presented as a diatribe, is doomed to lead to fallacies and misconclusions and leave the speaker befuddled as to what the devil he is supposed to be talking about.
An honest and honorable debater does not sink to attacks on the other's debaters accents or dress or whatever that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
So far as I know (or remember), no points are awarded in competition debates when one debater declares the other debaters don't know what they are talking about, unless that declaration is borne on the back of solid, convincing, and presented evidence. Claims that one's opponent slurred or mispronounced words or failed to speak in precise English grammer warrant no points, and any declaration that one's opponent MUST abide by someone else's personal preference in usage of the language should gain negatives.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
A foot note: My own leanings and understanding of current day U.S. immigration policies do NOT coincide with those of IWISHIHAD or even come close,
(But he makes some excellent points. Belittling him or the way he speaks or writes is not a suitable response to his concerns.)
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by IWISHIHAD: Machiavelli,
What i meant by "picking posts apart", is how everyone should structure their posts to please you. "Common courtesy"? Sounds like a double standard to me.
I make it easy for you to follow what particular quotes I am addressing and you call that pleasing me? Most people here post this way & if I am doing it for you then yes it would be common courtesy to do it for me. Much like if I say held the door open for you & I expect it back out of common courtesy. If you do not know how to quote like me then all you have to do is admit you don't and not hide behind a accusation that I am criticizing your grammar and spelling when I haven't even once did. But for future reference when you want to quote a particular paragraph or sentence all you have to do is put QUOTE & QB at the beginning of the sentence/paragraph in brackets and put /qb & /QUOTE in brackets in that order. If you do not want to now even though I showed you then you just want to annoy me and have me decipher your posts.
quote:As you are well aware, you avoid answering questions asked by taking things out of context to suit your agenda.
Care to show me a example where I avoided answering a question? If you are going to accuse then show proof. Perhaps you are Pro Bush and agree with his way of accusing people without proof but I don't play that game.
quote:Maybe you can BS other people enough so they believe what you are saying about the immigration problems and related issues. But i really doubt it.
I don't BS about something I know first hand. I already told a board member in private why i know about this firsthand even though he still doesn't agree with me. And he could attest to my first hand knowledge and how it affects people south of the border but I told him in private and I hope he keeps it private.
quote:You should consider confining your comments to Latin America. I personally know that some of your other comments are really way off base.
Again accusations or comments without proof. Anyways read the letter below that was sent to the Costa Rican-American newspaper (geared towards Americans and Europeans that retire and live in CR) by a American (well he writes like one from what I see) to the newspaper (www.ticotimes.net). I'll have to retype it because it came out in a issue 2 weeks ago. Then you tell me if the current immigration laws or more importantly why people south of the border should think that the U.S. will play fair when it comes to immigration when such a thing like this happens (and you wonder why the current illegals do not want to do it legally & wait in line):
The Tico Times - June 22,2007
U.S. Officials Should Rethink Ideas About Ticas' Motives
Dear Tico Times:
I am a U.S. citizen by birth and a retired teacher of both K-12 and community college. I moved to Costa Rica four years ago and obtained legal residency because I intend to spend my retirement living here. About 17 months ago I married a Tica with whom I share ownership of a new house. Her daughters, ages 14 and 19, live with us. Two weeks ago my wife applied for a visa to accompany me on a visit to the United States to see my children, grandchildren and my sister, all of whom she has never met. She took our marriage certificate, the deed to our house (paid for free and clear), birth certificate of her girls and bank statements showing $10 million colones ($19,354) in certificates of deposit which she has had since before we met. Her elderly mother lives here, as well as her only sibling (brother). She was told by U.S. Embassy officials that she is too great a risk to receive a visa. If these officials knew my wife, they would have issued her the visa. She is a person of high integrity who loves her country and has no desire to live in the United States. But they don't know her, and evidently have some sort of profile they use to evaluate the women of Costa Rica in order to make their decisions. Maybe it reads like this:
1. Costa Rican women will abandon their children for a chance to live illegally in the United States.
2. Costa Rican women will forsake their aging parents in order to live illegally in the United States.
3. Costa Rican women will abandon their spouses to live illegally in the United States.
4. Costa Rican women will forfeit their homes and bank accounts in order to live illegally in the United States.
I suggest this profile because it is the only information they had about my wife in order to reject her application. Perhaps the U.S. Embassy staff should reevaluate their ideas about the character of the women of its host country.
Charles Stephens Alto La Trinidad, Moravia
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Yeah, I think we all do, IWISH.
He's certainly got a better feel for the innuendo of the the NY City area's society and cultural than me and possibly the others here, but that seems to be his outside limit of real knowledge, then he fills in with palaver intended to overwhelm. ("A little education is a dangerous thing.")
Yes I know about the Northeast area (not just NYC)& see the illegals hanging out in the train parking lot next to a Dunkin Donuts as well as the Home Depot parking lot plus some live on my street. I also have personal experience in illegal immigration (no I am not illegally here, born and bred in NY) that I do not care to discuss because it's my private life but I already mentioned that I do in my post to IWish. I also have first hand knowledge of Costa Rica and Nicaragua. And my family has first hand knowledge of other Latin American countries. I'm not restricted in my knowledge to just Mexico such as yourself and others.
quote:That has been tried here before and the BSers eventually had to accept the fact that the knowledge level of the regular posters here is too far above average for them to be fooled and certainly their knowledge and experience is too high for them to be intimidated by a line of excessive and misused verbage (might want to check out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=verbage 0n that) and character attacks.
Funny, alot of board members consider you a BSer lol As for character attacks? Funny for you to say that since you are the master of character attacks on this board. I can give you a dozen or so examples of you attacking someone's character like Natural Resource among others.
quote:An open mind does not preach infallibility of DNC propaganda, even accidentally or sincerely.
quote:That extreme way far far left mindset, particularly when presented as a diatribe, is doomed to lead to fallacies and misconclusions and leave the speaker befuddled as to what the devil he is supposed to be talking about.
Wow must be deja vu about yourself.
quote:An honest and honorable debater does not sink to attacks on the other's debaters accents or dress or whatever that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Do you know that you are dillusional or you just kid yourself? lol I never attacked IWish's accent nor dress (hell I can't even see nor hear him on this board can you? lol oh yeah your dillusional i forgot so you can). Anyways personal attacks is a thing you are a master of so that is ironic that you accuse me of such.
quote:So far as I know (or remember), no points are awarded in competition debates when one debater declares the other debaters don't know what they are talking about, unless that declaration is borne on the back of solid, convincing, and presented evidence.
I do believe IWish has said I know more about Latin America outside of Mexico, so he himself pretty much said he doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to those countries. As for Haiti and Asia. We'll I provided evidence in that my boss is a immigrant from Haiti so he would know more about it then me or Iwish. Asia? I had a girlfriend in Thailand & my girlfriend who passed away recently was from the Phillipines and I am in constant contact with her family who live there so they tell me what is up in that country. I also have friends in Japan, Korea, Malaysia etc. who inform me of things there. So yes my knowledge in those areas are more then most people's here.
quote:Claims that one's opponent slurred or mispronounced words or failed to speak in precise English grammer warrant no points, and any declaration that one's opponent MUST abide by someone else's personal preference in usage of the language should gain negatives.
Dillusional again are we? lol I don't recall nor see Iwish claiming that I said he mispronounced, mispelled or doesn't use proper grammar in regards to paragraphs,commas,periods etc. Stop instigating fights about something I never said. Take your Meds Bdgee and you'll be lucid again.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: A foot note: My own leanings and understanding of current day U.S. immigration policies do NOT coincide with those of IWISHIHAD or even come close,
(But he makes some excellent points. Belittling him or the way he speaks or writes is not a suitable response to his concerns.)
As far as I see you only like to butt in our debate and instigate or fire the flames about nothing that has to do with immigration. So why not tell us your "wisdom" about this issue of immigration and tell us what your views are. If you do not agree with Iwish's views on it then tell us why while you are lucid.
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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So far as I have been able to determine, you were never granted the authority to order me to perform. Moreover, one of the freedoms dubya's crew hasn't obliterated is the freedom to think, then choose when to speak. So I'll defer.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: NR, i was at UCRiverside, but i traveled all over SoCali...
the one thing i avoided was LA proper... i went there a couple times and decided it wasn't worth fighting the traffic...
there were sections of the 91 in Riverside so bad that it felt like i had a flat tire...
it was while i was there that i began to realise the only way to fix the illegal problem is to go after the employers... in '97? the problem had not spread much out of the southwest... i went to the home depot an there were minimum thirty guys looking for work every time i wnet. i had never seen that before "back east".... by '02? i was seeing 'em on trips "back east" too...
go to a greyhound terminal and watch....
I'm guessing you didn't get to spend much time outside of SoCali. If you had, the state might not have left such a bitter taste in your mouth.
I know what you mean about the LA Basin though, I avoided that place like the plague...
-------------------- One is never completely useless. One can always serve as a bad example. Posts: 2430 | From: CA | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
If they are moving out of the villages in Mexico to come to the US then mabe its a good time to head over there and pick up some nice home sites near the coast. Take a flame-thrower to those villages and start over.
Posts: 36 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I think there is a law prohibiting non-Mexican citizens from owning property.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by NaturalResources: I'm guessing you didn't get to spend much time outside of SoCali. If you had, the state might not have left such a bitter taste in your mouth.
I know what you mean about the LA Basin though, I avoided that place like the plague... [/QB]
not enough...
i did get up to Chico, loved it... wouldn't mind going back there to live
went up to Big Bear often and loved it.. but i saw it was changing fast..
went up to the high desert the most... loved it...
went down to the greater San Diego alot, it was OK... but i don't want to live there...
every place has it's pluses and minuses..
Nebraska? lots of real down to earth people, not much ignorance, not too crowded...
but if you ain't a CornHusker fan? you might as well be a one-eyed one horned flying purple people eater... (and the weather was unreal)
MS? i can pretty much do anything i want here... we don't even have building inspectors in our county...
in Cali? the City wanted 50,000$ worth of engineering plans to set up a glassblowing studio.. and that wouldn't guarantee that they'd let you actually operate the biz... they also wanted a 20K bond put up to "guarantee" you'd meet their "undefined specs" and this was all before you could turn on the electric or the gas... IMO? those guys were the zoning Nazi's....
-------------------- Don't envy the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise. Posts: 36378 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Interesting opinion, Mr. Butt-in-ski.
So far as I have been able to determine, you were never granted the authority to order me to perform. Moreover, one of the freedoms dubya's crew hasn't obliterated is the freedom to think, then choose when to speak. So I'll defer.
Didn't think you had much to offer to this debate other then to instigate... so I'll accept your deferment to not contribute anything positive to this debate...
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: Interesting opinion, Mr. Butt-in-ski.
So far as I have been able to determine, you were never granted the authority to order me to perform. Moreover, one of the freedoms dubya's crew hasn't obliterated is the freedom to think, then choose when to speak. So I'll defer.
Didn't think you had much to offer to this debate other then to instigate... so I'll accept your deferment to not contribute anything positive to this debate... :p
It never was up to you, in spite of the desires of your over blown ego.
Posts: 11304 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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After re-reading a few of your replies to my posts, i see we are generally not on the same page. And I don't mean "pro" and "con".
I feel others may have wanted to jump in, but decided to let you and I have the floor. At this time i feel others should have the opportunity to express their views of the topic. Since there are others who write better, it may be easier to understand them.
As for Bdgee and our discussions... we really don't sweat the small stuff and generally understand what the other is saying. Not that we necessarily agree. I think Bdgee stayed out of this discussion because he realized much earier than me, that our(Mach and Iwish) discussion was going nowhere.
Posts: 3875 | From: ca. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bdgee: It never was up to you, in spite of the desires of your over blown ego.
.. seriously everytime you keep accusing me of something it is always ironic because it describes you to a " T " lol The person with the biggest ego on this board saying I have a overblown ego lol ... too funny....
-------------------- Let the world change you... And you can change the world.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna Posts: 4669 | Registered: Mar 2004
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My bad.. you are a scholar on the economies in Latin America. Btw $30,000 is a yearly amount not a lifetime amount so I don't know why you brought up the lifetime line. We all know that in a lifetime that a person will make more then $30,000. 
