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About 25 years ago, Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facilities, preventing Saddam from developing nuclear bombs to use in his lifetime goal of taking over the mideast.
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In the art of warfare there are only two ways to assured victory, one is to compleatly annihilate your opponent. In the case of country V country, in todays enlightened view it is not quite cricket to annihilate an entire society. The second path to victory is to compleatly demorilize your opponent, and convince them their death is assured in continued combat. the second path is only obtainable when your opponent values thier life, and as any warrior will tell you the most feared enemy is he that has nothing to lose and fears not death. In the middle east this is exactly the foe we face. A man is born laying on a dirt floor, and has nothing more to look forward to beyond pulling goat tits, cooking over camel scat, and dying an old man of 34 laying on a dirt floor. This same man totaly believes beyond question if he were to be killed in the service of his God that he would immediatly be transported to a jewled palace where the sweetest wine flows from fountains,with virgins and little boys his for the taking, and to be seated at the right hand of his Lord. The dilemma we face is how to deny this opponent their envisioned reward. The answer is pigs ! Yes this lowly animal is the answer to thousands of years of strife in the middle east. As every mussilman knows the gates to eternal reward are locked should he approach them in an unclean way. A mere drop of a pigs blood bars this wanna be martyr from nirvena and makes him fear death. The answer is then simple, Carpet Pigging. They are a real deal when one considers a single 100 lb bomb costs $1232.48 US. There is no infrastructure needing to be rebuilt after the Carpet Pigging, and it's enviromentaly friendly.
-------------------- Bring me a shrubbery Posts: 69 | From: Maine | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Swampman: In the art of warfare there are only two ways to assured victory, one is to compleatly annihilate your opponent. In the case of country V country, in todays enlightened view it is not quite cricket to annihilate an entire society. The second path to victory is to compleatly demorilize your opponent, and convince them their death is assured in continued combat. the second path is only obtainable when your opponent values thier life, and as any warrior will tell you the most feared enemy is he that has nothing to lose and fears not death. In the middle east this is exactly the foe we face. A man is born laying on a dirt floor, and has nothing more to look forward to beyond pulling goat tits, cooking over camel scat, and dying an old man of 34 laying on a dirt floor. This same man totaly believes beyond question if he were to be killed in the service of his God that he would immediatly be transported to a jewled palace where the sweetest wine flows from fountains,with virgins and little boys his for the taking, and to be seated at the right hand of his Lord. The dilemma we face is how to deny this opponent their envisioned reward. The answer is pigs ! Yes this lowly animal is the answer to thousands of years of strife in the middle east. As every mussilman knows the gates to eternal reward are locked should he approach them in an unclean way. A mere drop of a pigs blood bars this wanna be martyr from nirvena and makes him fear death. The answer is then simple, Carpet Pigging. They are a real deal when one considers a single 100 lb bomb costs $1232.48 US. There is no infrastructure needing to be rebuilt after the Carpet Pigging, and it's enviromentaly friendly.
This plan has been bothering me a great deal. I think of the horrible suffering and anguish it would cause - everyone affected would go terminally insane.
I don't care how much more it costs us - more humane to use bombs.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness. Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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[/QUOTE]This plan has been bothering me a great deal. I think of the horrible suffering and anguish it would cause - everyone affected would go terminally insane.
I don't care how much more it costs us - more humane to use bombs. [/QB][/QUOTE]
In these darkend times drastic measures are called for, and surely as an investor you can see the possibilitys in the future's market.
-------------------- Bring me a shrubbery Posts: 69 | From: Maine | Registered: Jun 2004
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yeah, sure. what if i "needed" your house? wouldn't that be "too bad"?
what we need is an agressive, radical shift to renewable energy. (before some asian country becomes the leader in that field which is as certain to be huge, as water is to be the biggest problem of this century.) anyone who wants to be a financial giant in the 21st cent, should be doing this now. and i think we should be #1, not out of the standard issue american arrogance, but because we are #1 in greenhouse gas emmissions. #1 by a long shot. and because it would be cool. and we haven't been cool in such a long time.
"leverage against the saudis?" i think maybe you should suffer thru *Farenheit 911*. Moore may be a hideous rhetoritician, but i don't think there's anything factually wrong there. you might find the sequence regarding the bush family's relationship with the saudis interesting...
ok, guess i need to explain.. for any moore-lovers who might be reading, why i think michael moore is such an embarrassment. he preaches to the choir, (the worst of the choir.) there is a long sequence of gw in the kindergarten classroom, for example. right at the start of the film. having heard the news of the US being "under attack" he sits there, for a full - something like 5 minutes. Moore lingers on the footage, really lingers on it. as if it proves something.
it does'nt prove anything. if you already think bush is a moron, you think, "ok, so he doesn't know what to do.. am i supposed to be surprised?" if you love bush you think "who knows what he's thinking right now, or why he's not leaping out of the chair just yet. i'm sure he's got his reasons. this is a waste of my time." to annoy the ppl who you should really be trying to delicately woo, is foolish/moronic (or, my new term, moorish). moore is a great disappointment. still, i think you should suffer thru it (art.) moore is a great disappointment but nobody else showed me how we carefully flew the entire bin laden family out of the country immediately after 911, at a time when all planes were grounded and nobody could fly for days.. (remember the eerie quiet of those days..) none of bin laden's family was even held briefly for questioning. and in fact, we went to the extraordinary length of flying them all home.
can you imagine clinton going to that kind of length to get terry nichols' family to safety?
anyway, there was also some interesting stuff about saudi money floating gw thru a series of failure businesses b4 he became governor.
Posts: 234 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lucy Lastic: yeah, sure. what if i "needed" your house? wouldn't that be "too bad"?
Art: So, you are saying we should not buy any oil and should instead return to the stone age? We need cheap oil for our economy. To suggest we sacrifice what we need for the good of any other country is idiotic and traitorous. Countries relate on a business basis - they only help one another out when there is something in it for them, and exploit one another whenever they can. That is the way it is, the way it always has been, and the way it should be.
See the thread "What Valentine's Day means to me" started by Kate on 3/2/05:
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Lucy: what we need is an agressive, radical shift to renewable energy.
Art: Like what? Wishing for something we don't have is futile. Oil is the cheapest, right now. What we need is to drill more in Alaska. We are seeking alternative energy sources, like fusion, but this will take many years.
Lucy: "leverage against the saudis?" i think maybe you should suffer thru *Farenheit 911*. Moore may be a hideous rhetoritician, but i don't think there's anything factually wrong there. you might find the sequence regarding the bush family's relationship with the saudis interesting...
Art: What is your point here? Moore is a hate-capitalism and thus hate-America propagandist. What is Moore's point and what is yours?
Lucy: .....there is a long sequence of gw in the kindergarten classroom, for example. right at the start of the film. having heard the news of the US being "under attack" he sits there, for a full - something like 5 minutes. Moore lingers on the footage, really lingers on it. as if it proves something.
Art: So, what is the point? What could Bush do that wasn't already being done by others? He could collect his thoughts and consider the situation while many leaders, with delegated authority from Bush, did what was best.
Lucy:.....Moore is a great disappointment. still, i think you should suffer thru it (art.) moore is a great disappointment but nobody else showed me how we carefully flew the entire bin laden family out of the country immediately after 911, at a time when all planes were grounded and nobody could fly for days..
Art: Yes, for their safety. Idiots would attack bin Laden's family for something they did not have anything to do with, and would be against. We need to maintain a good relationship with the Saudis to get their oil.
Lucy: (remember the eerie quiet of those days..) none of bin laden's family was even held briefly for questioning. and in fact, we went to the extraordinary length of flying them all home.
Art: What should they be asked? They are against Osama bin Laden's activities (which include a desire to overthrow the Saudi government). The departure of Saudi Royal family members and friends was cleared by all levels of our government. They had nothing to do with 9/11 and it would have been a disaster for the U.S. if anything happened to them on U.S.soil.
Lucy: can you imagine clinton going to that kind of length to get terry nichols' family to safety?
Art: I have never seen a more inappropriate analogy in my life. To suggest that the Saudi family and their friends, who were quickly escorted out of the U.S., had attacked the U.S. is insane - this is what Moore would say.
Lucy: anyway, there was also some interesting stuff about saudi money floating gw thru a series of failure businesses b4 he became governor.
Art: Politics and business. Bush and the Saudis use each other - mutual exploitation - called business. What is your point here?
[ March 15, 2005, 17:21: Message edited by: Art ]
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness. Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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oh yeah, art, alternative energies have a long long way to go.. it's not because of powerful oil/gas/auto lobbies & control of the government, that we're still dependent on the old way.
if we were to be given a deadline, say 3 years from now, to be completely off oil, we wouldn't be able to do it. we're just too stupid to make solar & wind, etc... work. we just wouldn't be able to. we wouldn't have a really exciting time with mad work opportunities and buzzing R&D departments. no, we'd sit on our asses and cry about how we are all going to die in 3 years.
Posts: 234 | Registered: Feb 2005
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orig posted by Art: ============= Lucy: ...you might find the sequence regarding the bush family's relationship with the saudis interesting...
Art: What is your point here? Moore is a hate-capitalism and thus hate-America propagandist. What is Moore's point and what is yours?
Lucy: .....there is a long sequence of gw in the kindergarten classroom, for example. right at the start of the film. having heard the news of the US being "under attack" he sits there, for a full - something like 5 minutes. Moore lingers on the footage, really lingers on it. as if it proves something.
Art: So, what is the point? What could Bush do that wasn't already being done by others? He could collect his thoughts and consider the situation while many leaders, =================== =====================
you missed my point. i went on a tangent in the middle of my post to BASH MOORE. i used the example of bush in the classroom as an example of how BAD moore is.
but my overall point was that you should check it out (suffer thru it,) simply for the stuff about the bush's and saudis... verrrrry chummy.
meanwhile, it's inaccurate to call michael moore anti-american. he is --- ostensibly anyway--- a guy who is, simply speaking, against corporate corruption, and pro-"the little guy". he tends to focus on typical (republican usually) hard-working pro-military americans, who become disillusioned when their kids are dying over there (for lies, for haliburton, etc) and .. etc. etc.
you don't have to be anti-american to be anti-bush. you can simply, love people.
Posts: 234 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lucy Lastic: oh yeah, art, alternative energies have a long long way to go.. it's not because of powerful oil/gas/auto lobbies & control of the government, that we're still dependent on the old way.
Art: Get real! If there is an economically viable way besides oil, then form a company sell it, and make your fortune. Many have tried and failed, and this was not because government made them fail. Did you know that even wind power stations have detrimental environmental effects and are not competitive with oil except in a few locations? We are using hydro power where we can.
Lucy: we're just too stupid to make solar & wind, etc... work. we just wouldn't be able to. we wouldn't have a really exciting time with mad work opportunities and buzzing R&D departments. no, we'd sit on our asses and cry about how we are all going to die in 3 years.
Art: Cost, and not stupidity, are the drawbacks.
Oil may be a replenishing resource, unlike what was assumed from previous fossil theories of its production.
Why are we going to die in 3 years?
Would be good if half of us did die - overpopulated.
-------------------- The light of truth is blinding to most.
More comforting to look only at the shadows of falseness. Posts: 4402 | From: Florida | Registered: Jun 2003
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orig posted by art: ==================================== What we need is to drill more in Alaska. ====================================
great plan. alaska is estimated to have somewhere *downwards* of 6 months supply (for US) .. total.
lets get right on that. that's the best place to put our energy. 6 whole months! what are we waiting for! so what if it's one of the last pristine places on earth, we're talking SIX WHOLE MONTHS WORTH!
Posts: 234 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lucy: we're just too stupid to make solar & wind, etc... work. we just wouldn't be able to. we wouldn't have a really exciting time with mad work opportunities and buzzing R&D departments. no, we'd sit on our asses and cry about how we are all going to die in 3 years.
Art: Nonsense. Cost, and not stupidity, are the drawbacks.
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wow, you really thought i was saying stupidity was the reason? you don't recognize sarcasm? do you read too fast or something?
of COURSE WE'RE NOT TOO STUPID. WE CAN MAKE STRATELLITES FOR CRYINOUTLOUD! we can do whatever we set our minds to do. the idea is, government sets the rules. the market sets the rules. thru some collection of things, rules are set. then we play by them, and we play real good.
what i'm saying is - we need to change the rules.
we need a deadline to get off the oil. it's like a bad habit, like a drug addiction, and we need an exit strategy.
i'm sure there are problems with wind farms. any new technology is going to have problems.
alaska is a stupid plan - more energy in the wrong direction. i've heard at least one environmental scientist speak of the need to actually *leave some ofthe oil in the ground* - imagine that - for future generations who will desperately need it.
i have to go. nice fighting with you. i'll look forward to more soon. Love, Lucy
Posts: 234 | Registered: Feb 2005
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i followed your link. found this paragraph instructive: (the author apparently thinks "pristine" means: "a comfortable place for humans to dwell.") =========================================
Opponents of drilling in ANWR claim it is the nation's last true wilderness, a hallowed place, and a pristine environmental area. Though such attributes describe much of ANWR, they do not accurately portray the 1002 Area. In a July 20 Washington Times article titled "Hardly a Pretty Place: Use ANWR for Oil Exploration," Jonah Goldberg, editor of National Review Online , described it this way: "[I]f you wanted a picture to go with the word `Godforsaken' in the dictionary, ANWR would do nicely." He is not referring to the ANWR parcels often highlighted in the media and on postcards with picturesque landscapes and endearing wildlife scenes. Rather, he is describing the flat, treeless, coastal plain area at the top corner of ANWR where the oil is located. As he notes in the article, winters on the coastal plain last for nine months; there is total darkness for 58 consecutive days; and temperatures drop to 70 degrees below zero without the wind chill. Summers are not much better. The thick ice melts, but it creates puddles on the flat tundra and attracts thousands of mosquitoes.
=======================================
so, ppl don't want to live there. mosquitos like it. you're right, it's not "pristine". according to this guy, "hallowed, pristine" places must have trees, be pretty to the average human eye, not be dark or cold....
pristine means left alone, not poluted. i'm sure it's being dark and cold and "god forsaken" is a big part of how it's remained untouched so long. so environmentalists are saying "come ON, this is one of the last spots untouched," and developers retort "oh please, it's not even beautiful."
eughhh. exasperating.
oh, and the peripheral effects of drilling (roads, air polution, noise polution,) won't touch the other more pristine areas of the ANWR?
bottom line: it's six months worth.
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now, the real question, who gets the honors.....
