posted
Thats not what I was thinking. To be honest it pis*es me off that there is people out there like that. I mean it is like, well they volunteered to serve so there life is not important. That is exactly what Art is saying. He stated the troops lifes are less important then the world trade center victims. Thats full of crap. Thats alright we don't need to plan for complications, its only solders. As long as we can save the oil and our economy. I tell you what Art, why don't you go volunteer in Iraq. I don't see you over there protect our interest. Talk about evil when our solders lifes are not even respected.
Ric
quote:Originally posted by glassman: sometimes Art seems like a computer......
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Its not the fact that they do there duty and serve. The fact is they have been asked to give up everything and in affect become active duty. Tours of duty are being extended they are being asked to do dangerous jobs that in fact they aren't trained for. When you are active duties you train over and over, day end and day out. Nation Guard units do boot camp then one weekend a month. There families don't get the benefits of active duties such as health care. Yet there spouse's don't have health insurance. Jobs are being lost because the you can't ask there bosses to hold it while they are gone for such extended times. There is so much more to this.
Ric
quote:Originally posted by DiQuiRiesco: [QUOTE]Originally posted by glassman: [b]Cheney,Rummy and Wolfowitz too...
Bush i can't say for 100% but i thnk he's the same as well...
considering the way he has treated the reservists...
Ummm, exactly how has he treated the reservists? Heavens no did he actually expect them to do their jobs?
[/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by Ric (edited October 29, 2004).]
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: Thats not what I was thinking. To be honest it pis*es me off that there is people out there like that. I mean it is like, well they volunteered to serve so there life is not important. That is exactly what Art is saying. He stated the troops lifes are less important then the world trade center victims. Thats full of crap. Thats alright we don't need to plan for complications, its only solders. As long as we can save the oil and our economy. I tell you what Art, why don't you go volunteer in Iraq. I don't see you over there protect our interest. Talk about evil when our solders lifes are not even respected.
Ric
In battle, their lives are spendable. If you sign up for the military, guess what? You signed up for the possibility of going into war. If a the death of a civilian happens it is much more outrageous when compared to the death of a soldier. Now, I am not saying one life is more important than the other, I am saying that if you signed up for it and get killed you know what you got yourself into (or did know), but if you went to work to sort through paperwork and got killed, you can not tolerate such things. Every military person should be honored, even if they did not fight. But the killing of someone who was just sitting there sorting mail or something like that is a little more outrageous and angering.
posted
Until I see one of you serve, you need to be quiet. I served and was proud. If I died, I know it would be for my country. But as far as I am concerned the soldiers life is more important. Because he is risking his life for yours.
Ric
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: Until I see one of you serve, you need to be quiet. I served and was proud. If I died, I know it would be for my country. But as far as I am concerned the soldiers life is more important. Because he is risking his life for yours.
Ric
Ric, soldiers should be honored, but their life is not more important. You served, thankyou. It is appreciated, but do no sit there and tell me that your life is more important than mine, it simply is not.
posted
No I don't but you said the the soldiers life was less important. And you did say that no matter what you think you said.
A cop is in the line of duty. He gets killed yet there are is a harsh penalty appied because you killed a cop. Why is that? Thats because they are out there protecting you. So why does the court feel that there life is so important?
quote:Originally posted by futuresobjective: Ric, soldiers should be honored, but their life is not more important. You served, thankyou. It is appreciated, but do no sit there and tell me that your life is more important than mine, it simply is not.
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: No I don't but you said the the soldiers life was less important. And you did say that no matter what you think you said.
A cop is in the line of duty. He gets killed yet there are is a harsh penalty appied because you killed a cop. Why is that? Thats because they are out there protecting you. So why does the court feel that there life is so important?
I said a soldiers life is spendable in battle, for the greater cause. You, having served, should know that some might die. Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. It is equally unforunate for the death of a civilian or military personal (cops, firemen etc...) but soldiers are expected to die from time to time. It is just one of those unfortunates of war. If you go into battle and die, it is not as shocking to the masses. The death of a solider (family and friends aside) is simply not as shokcing, hence it is not given as much importance (although the lives are equally important) as the death of the men and women in the towers on 9/11. They did not sign up to die due to war, you did. So if you died, it would be much more expected. That is pretty much what I am trying to say. But you did say a soldiers life is more important because they are risking their life for yours. That, by no means, makes their lives more important. If you signed up for the army thinking it would bring you repect, you are wrong. It should bring respect to yourself, repsect from others may come or not (even though it should) but if it does not, by no means does that give you the right to demand it. You did what you wanted to do, not what others wanted you to do.
But thats the reason we need to really concern ourselves with going to a preemptive war. Because the people who are not in the line of fire are the one making those decisions. So what if we knew the risks of joining the military. No one thinks about going to war and losing there life when they join. But yet the leaders, who have not ever seen war but on TV can make that choice for us. You know that there were more counrties that said, we will help just give 6 more months. What difference would 6 months make. Maybe it could have given more time for planning? We haven't lost many lifes in war. We lost them in nation building. Fighting a battle of politicians. There sons and daughters are not there in the line of fire.
[This message has been edited by Ric (edited October 29, 2004).]
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: No I don't but you said the the soldiers life was less important. And you did say that no matter what you think you said.
A cop is in the line of duty. He gets killed yet there are is a harsh penalty appied because you killed a cop. Why is that? Thats because they are out there protecting you. So why does the court feel that there life is so important?
You can not force respect, so in situations such as that, you have to make people fear it. Simple as that. Cops are there to stop crime. If someone decides to shoot a cop they will think twice about it(unless you are just an idiot or high on whaterver, or both). Why will they think twice? well by killing someone who is trying to enforce the law, you are commiting two crimes, not only murder.
posted
I didn't ask for your respect. All I said it was sicking to here someone say it was a SMALL PRICE TO PAY when talking about over 1000 soldiers lifes. Then mention oil and economics as a justification.
quote:Originally posted by futuresobjective: You can not force respect, so in situations such as that, you have to make people fear it. Simple as that. Cops are there to stop crime. If someone decides to shoot a cop they will think twice about it(unless you are just an idiot or high on whaterver, or both). Why will they think twice? well by killing someone who is trying to enforce the law, you are commiting two crimes, not only murder.
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: I didn't sign up to die. Thats crazy.
But thats the reason we need to really concern ourselves with going to a preemptive war. Because the people who are not in the line of fire are the one making those decisions. So what if we knew the risks of joining the military. No one thinks about going to war and losing there life when they join. But yet the leaders, who have not ever seen war but on TV can make that choice for us. You know that there were more counrties that said, we will help just give 6 more months. What difference would 6 months make. Maybe it could have given more time for planning? We haven't lost many lifes in war. We lost them in nation building. Fighting a battle of politicians. There sons and daughters are not there in the line of fire.
[This message has been edited by Ric (edited October 29, 2004).]
If they do not have the capability of realizing that they may die in a war if they join the military, they should be in a home for the mentally disabled. Or you can just say you made your bed, now sleep in it. If you join the military, you are signing up to follow orders, possibly die. The point is, the military is a weapon, every soldier and commander is simply parts to that weapon. Over the years, the weapon has become more precise, much like a knife. You as a soldier (assuming you were not all the way up in the ranks) are not capable of making decision regarding the direction of war, you are concerned with the present danger, hence lose the ability to consider the war as a whole. The second you step into a battle you lost the ability to see clearly what must be accomplished. You are expendable for the greater good. Like I said you might be part of the knifes blade, but what power can that knife have unless it is controlled by people who have the knowledge of where to cut. Now please to not take that offensivley, I am not trying to imply that you personally can not run a war (I do not know you), but I am implying that soldiers are not the ones that should be given the responsability of deciding how that war should happen. They should simply follow orders, giving input and casting doubt were correctly required. People die, in war. Less and less are actually dieing as the military moves into the future. If this war had taken place 20 years ago I think we would have seen much higher counts of death. This war pre-emptive? This war was alredy going on. Maybe not on the military level, but for sure it was going on. I have to agree with art when he mentions how things may have played out concerning iraq and the future of oil. Problems and plans were being discussed which would have had a worldwide effect (of course excluding those countrues which sold their soles to the devil). He is pretty much on the money with that. This is not the 1950's anymore, when you look at things you have to look at them on the global scale. Some countries disagreed with us. Why do you think that is? I will tell you it is because of their own greed, and lack of ability to realize the global effect their inaction would have had.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Ric: I didn't ask for your respect. All I said it was sicking to here someone say it was a SMALL PRICE TO PAY when talking about over 1000 soldiers lifes. Then mention oil and economics as a justification.
No life is a small price to pay, but it is a small price to pay when you take into account the 100,000's of lives or really millions of lives that would have been negativley affected. I do not know if I would go as far as saying that gang riots would break out, but I would say many more people would die. And the sacrifice of a few soldiers (who did sign up for this) is a small price to pay when considering the countless more that would have been lost over time, had nothing been done. And it is exactly that reason that these same soldiers should be respected. They earned respect by fighting for the will and furtherment of this countries well being.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
posted
Thats crazy. The recruiters come to kids out of High School and offer them the moon. Romanance them with wonderful place to see. Mainly in intercity school. I went for one reason. The education, my family couldn't afford to send me to college. I went to get a education and haven't stopped. Started with Electronics in the service then went on to get degrees in Biology/Math with minor in computer science. It is never you in your mind. The recruiters are good too. They are like a used car salesman. Not to say it is all that way but no one thinks of war and death. When your 18 years old, all you think of is women and cars. Your mind is still able to be shaped and abused. Some have no where to go and the Army promises them the world.
Yes there are some that stay but they have made it up the ranks like I did quickly and are really no longer in risk like the 18 year old with a gun in his hand fresh out of school.
[This message has been edited by Ric (edited October 29, 2004).]
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by glassman: you are making the case for pre-emptive strikes....
that's more or less fascism FO....
becuase anybody can justify any act by GUESSING what the enemy MIGHT do someday...
Saddam was non-secular..now we will be looking at secular politics in another Islamic nation.....
10 years from now i predict?????
If you chose to believe that those things would not have happened, you can go right ahead and believe it. But if you get stung by a bee once, you bet the next time you see one landing on you you will try not to allow it. But I supose it is better to let it sting you, then bitch about the pain. The reasons for war were there. They have been there for years. Something had to be done, and was. It is as simple as that. Diplomatic roads were exhuasted (if you chose to believe they were not you are ignoring 14 years of history to the contrary), the end to this war had to start.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by glassman: FO, you never addressed my issue about making more enemies than we are killing....
Do you actually believe that people who dislike us now, loved us in the past? Going along with my bee thing... if you let the nest build, you will have a swarm. What we did was get it before the numbers were as significant as they would have been. I truly believe in 10 years, this will be looked back on and the only conclusion that would be made is that President Bush and Tony B. made decisions which stableized the middle east, furthered peace, and created democracy in countries that had never had a taste of freedom or reason.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
posted
the problem is, FO, that you aren't qualified to say that diplomatic options were exhausted...you are blindly following the fearless leader.....i have found plenty of Life-Long Professional Sate Dept. people who totally disagree with you and Bush and presented the links here in previous posts...
Bush had NO experience at State-craft prior to showing up to be sworn in...and he STUNK on his international knowledge in the debates before the 2000 election...
the fact is that Powell tried to stop Rumsfeld from starting this war...but Bush apparently ordered the Pentagon to be in charge of the State Dept. instead of State.....
as a matter of fact, it looks like osam is sticking his tongue out at Bush right now....doesn't look dead to me...
just another insult to live with as a result of Bush's failure to follow thru on one single mission....alive or dead he said...hmmm then he said he doesn't matter, we aren't worried about him....i saw both...
quote:Originally posted by futuresobjective: If you chose to believe that those things would not have happened, you can go right ahead and believe it. But if you get stung by a bee once, you bet the next time you see one landing on you you will try not to allow it. But I supose it is better to let it sting you, then bitch about the pain. The reasons for war were there. They have been there for years. Something had to be done, and was. It is as simple as that. Diplomatic roads were exhuasted (if you chose to believe they were not you are ignoring 14 years of history to the contrary), the end to this war had to start.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
if we kill all the bees FO, we won't have any crops..they pollinate them....
none of it is as simple as Bush tries to convince you it is....i think he thinks this way too, and that's why everything is so messed up....
everybody says Bush isn't as stupid as he talks, or acts....i don't know why they say that....
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 29, 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by glassman: if we kill all the bees FO, we won't have any crops..they pollinate them....
none of it is as simple as Bush tries to convince you it is....i think he thinks this way too, and that's why everything is so messed up....
everybody says Bush isn't as stupid as he talks, or acts....i don't know why they say that....
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 29, 2004).]
To the contrary, I feel it is kerry that tries to make this simple. "we will have nations trust us again"..."we will fix the economy" (funny, it does not look as broken as he makes it out to be, at least not from my stand=point. Unemployment rate last I checked was not eve 1% higher than before he took office)..."blah blah blah yap yap yap yadda yadda yadda"... all nonsense. I mean don't get me wrong I don't think kerry is the boogie man, but he does not have the standards, nor the foresight to do the job of being president. It is funny, I saw kerry speaking the other day, on the tv, and I swear the look on his face just said to me "I dont even belive this crap, what am I doing here", made me laugh for a little. Then I realized that here is a man, who wants to be President, has no concrete history to show he can get the job done, his running mate is probably one of the most inexperienced people that could have ever been selected, niether of them seem to have any repect for the office they hold. Niether of these men has earned the respect they had the chance to through their positions, they lack respect for the offices they were elected to hold, at least that is the feeling I get. kerry has no respect for the troops (although he does say he does, wow he said it, must be true then) Kerry claimed that he can have more countries take part in the rebuilding of Iraq, funny didn't they say they would? Oh but words came out of his mouth, so they must be true. How can anyone buy into this bag of hot air. All he does is talk. I have seen not one single thing that he has ever done in his entire lifetime that shows he can actually be a good leader. The one good thing he did, vietnam, he messed up when he got home. He does not deserve the respect of any military person, it is people like him that mock the efforts put forward by ordinary men to try and better our country and world. He just does come across as the least bit sincere in anything he says or does.
as for your bee comment, dont try to spin.
[This message has been edited by futuresobjective (edited October 29, 2004).]
posted
And I don't see any leadership the other way. Osma Bin Laden was just on TV again. Claiming to be organizing another attack on the US. You tell me why we are in Iraq when the person who attacked us is still out there threating us today. Why should we give him another chance when he hasn't even destroyed the person who attacked us. We had him trapped and we took our eye off the ball to get Saddam. Bush actually said that Bin Laden wasn't someone he worried about anymore. Trying to convince the willing that he is great and don't pay attention to the person behind the curtain.
Ric
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
With binladen dead, the war on terrorism would still go on. He had been training them for years and they were also trained in Iraq and other places.
Iraq was an easy target for attacking training camps. With the sanctions and previous actions, it was easier than pakistan, iran, syria, saudi arabia.
It is not the end all be all, we are now positioned between iran and syria. No bush does not say this on T.V. it would not go over well in either country or Europe.
Why is Bin Laden speaking now, threatening (spain) attacking.... It's not an accident he's appearing 4 days before the election and saying "its up to the american people to decide". Just think about it.
Kerry does say he will do a better job hunting and killing him, i want to know how, same army, same money, if he says we'll take out pakistan to get bin laden, he may get my vote. but never on rhetoric.
Posts: 9110 | From: boston, ma | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ric: Thats not what I was thinking. To be honest it pis*es me off that there is people out there like that. I mean it is like, well they volunteered to serve so there life is not important. That is exactly what Art is saying. He stated the troops lifes are less important then the world trade center victims. Thats full of crap. Thats alright we don't need to plan for complications, its only solders. As long as we can save the oil and our economy. I tell you what Art, why don't you go volunteer in Iraq. I don't see you over there protect our interest. Talk about evil when our solders lifes are not even respected.
Ric
Lives are a resource to a nation. Any nation spends lives to benefit its members, and a voluntary Army knows that it must be willing to die for the country. DUH!
If we have to spend 2,000 lives to save a greater number later, and also avoid economic depression, this is a bargain. Iraq is a bargain - we pay a little now to avoid much greater costs later.
Those who say a life is beyond monetary value think in terms of sentimental crap - typical liberal nonsense. This comes from the idiotic morality of Christ, where any killing is a sin under any circumstances. If you are armed and suddenly see a suicidal bomber in a crowd of women and children, in the act of detonating a bomb to kill all within 100 feet, is it wrong to act pro-actively, in a pre-emptive strike and kill the bomber first? Or, should you turn the other cheek and spare the suicidal bomber's life to enable his/her killing of the crowd? You would be surprised at how many liberals would say it would be wrong to kill the suicidal bomber. Such liberals are as nuts as the suicidal bomber.
Many species have members who serve as guards and warriors. These guards will lay sdown their lives to enable the group to escape when the group is attacked. The death of the warriors is compensated for by the benefit to the larger group. Humans have been fighting and dying throughout our history so that their group can enjoy greater economic benefits. This is genetically encoded. Warriors choose this sacrifical duty as some of us have the genetic make-up of the warrior. This is an act of love of the group, to sacrifice your life for the group. Others say this is foolish, but then so is the life path of the missionary who struggles to help others. The point is, to the warrior or missionary, their sacrifice is not foolish, but fulfilling. The suicide bomber feels the same way.
Sure, Bush has made many Arabs hate us, but many understand what we are doing and silently cheer us on. What Bush has done is bring the cockroaches out into the open where they can be killed, and this is the best path. You can't appease or negotiate with terorists, as many foolishly believe - you must kill or be killed by them. Period. That is why Bush has stirred them up in invading Iraq - expose them, fight them in the mideast instead of in the US, and kill them.
This is the only way to achieve peace in the mideast. Those who think there is another way are delusional fools.
Bush is also ready to release his secret weapon in the mideast - a weapon that is terrifying to terrorists. Democracy. Dmeocracy will take hold in Iraq and spread throughout the mideast. A dmocratic mideast will make peace with Israel, and with all neighboring states. Mideat stability is vital to the world economy. Bush will one day be recognized as a great president who saved the world from much death and economic calamity.
That has to be the most moronic statement that I have ever heard in my life. I not sure where your hate comes from or your dislike of our military personel. You think that they are you personel slaves to let die if need be to protect your freedoms yet don't want to give up anything in return. Lets not help anyone else it maybe called wealth redistrubution but lets take the poor and give them jobs in the military to protect our useless life. I feel sorry for you.
Ric
Posts: 4405 | From: Bristol, Tn, USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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the only way democracy is gonna happen in the middle east is if we keep enough guns in place.....
and what we have there now isn't enough....
Sure, Bush has made many Arabs hate us, but many understand what we are doing and silently cheer us on. What Bush has done is bring the cockroaches out into the open where they can be killed
many Arabs???silently cheer us on?? how many????they don't have what it takes to get their own freedom? so you casually say we'll spend a few lives to give it to them...
the miltiary is there to DEFEND the constitution...
[This message has been edited by glassman (edited October 30, 2004).]
posted
Just spent the whole night talking about politics. Three folks one a guard at a prison, another a union dude ( works heavy equipment ) and the third a wife of a auto mechanic who is a temster. All my neighbors...
Posts: 3417 | From: Cleveland, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2000
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